Listen up, kids

[saz]

You have to love it how all of these misinformed board troll spammers are consistently creating the same thread in here....They know absolutely nothing about Michael Moore and haven't even seen Farenheit 9/11, but they take Ann Coulter's word for the gospel truth and other conservative crap they read in any other neo-con editorial.

Sure, Michael Moore isn't exactly objective, nor has he portrayed everything accurately in this latest film. For instance, Moore fumbled the fact that some members of the bin Laden family were questioned by the FBI before they fled the US after the 9/11 attacks. However, these interviews were not indepth nor comprehensive. They were brief and not adequate. Moore is biased and so are his films. But that doesn't, nor should it obscure the fact that he's presenting facts and other truths that have not been picked up on and reported by the American corporate media.

Anyways, it's time for you kids to wake up and realize who and what you're actually supporting, especially when you call Moore "fat", or a "traitor", or he "hates America" and "the troops" (even though he gives a great tribute to the military at the end of Farenheit 9/11) and believe that the Bush administration is completely flawless.

Here you go...this is what you won't learn from your conservative websites.

The Bushes, the bin Ladens and the Saudis

Link (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/saudi.html)

It begins in the 1970's in Houston, Texas, when George W. Bush was just starting out in his family's two businesses of politics and oil. The powerful - and very rich - Bin Laden family helped fund his first venture into oil.

The cozy friendship continued for decades. After a terrorist attack at a barracks in Saudi Arabia which killed 19 Americans, the bin Laden family received a multi-billion dollar contract to re-build. And incredibly, George Bush Sr. was in a business meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington on the morning of September 11th with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers.

1968
George W. Bush joins the Texas Air National Guard, a coveted position that ensures he doesn’t have to serve in Vietnam. While a member of the Guard, Bush meets and befriends Jim Bath, a former Air Force pilot and budding entrepreneur.

1976
George H. W. Bush becomes director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). During his tenure, Bush helps provide training for the Saudi royal family’s palace guard, cementing a relationship that proves critical to the Bush family’s fortunes. Bush also privatizes various CIA assets, with Bath considered one of the beneficiaries because of his involvement in the aircraft business. Bath will later tell a business associate he works for the CIA and was recruited by Bush Sr.

Salem Bin Laden, older brother to future al Qaeda leader Osama, enters into a trust agreement with Jim Bath, whereby Bath will act as the bin Laden family’s representative in North America, investing money in various business ventures. Bath also becomes the business representative of Khalid bin Mahfouz, a member of Saudi Arabia’s most powerful banking family and owners of the National Commercial Bank, the principal bank of the Saudi royal family.

1978
Charles W. “Bill” White, a former Annapolis graduate and US Navy pilot, graduates from Harvard’s business school. He is then introduced to Jim Bath who is looking for someone to manage his real estate company. Bath hires White as his partner. Money from the bin Laden and bin Mahfouz families is invested in Bath’s real estate company. Among other things, Bath buys the Saudis an airport, office and apartment buildings, and invests in Texas banks. Eventually, Salem Bin Laden and Khalid bin Mahfouz buy an enormous mansion in River Oaks, Houston’s most affluent neighborhood. Read an interview with Bill White

George W. Bush starts up an oil company in Texas called Arbusto 78. Bath will invest money from Salem bin Laden and Khalid bin Mahfouz in this new company. Bill White is told by Bath that more than $1-million of the Saudis’ money was pumped into Bush’s venture.

1979
The Carter administration, through the CIA, begins to fund the fledgling mujahadeen in Afghanistan – six months before the Soviet invasion – in the hopes of drawing the USSR into its own Vietnam.

1980
George H.W. Bush runs for the presidential nomination of the Republican Party, but loses to Ronald Reagan. He becomes Reagan’s running mate and eventual vice-president.

1981
Osama bin Laden, son of the founder of the Bin Laden Group, the largest construction company in Saudi Arabia, travels to Afghanistan to help the mujahadeen in their bloody war against the Soviet Union.

1986
Bill White and Jim Bath have a falling out. Bath then launches 28 frivolous lawsuits against White, leading to White’s financial ruin and expulsion from Houston’s business community. White fights the lawsuits, refusing to take a huge pay off to keep silent about his knowledge of Bath’s relationship to the Saudis and Bush family. Read an interview with Bill White

1987
Harken Energy, a company that George W. Bush’s failed oil companies have been folded into, receives $25-million stock offering underwritten by significant players connected to the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), a Middle Eastern banking concern. Bush is key to Harken obtaining the money.

1989
The Soviets pull out of Afghanistan after the CIA spends (US) $3-billion on the largest covert operation in its history. Osama bin Laden returns to Saudi Arabia, angry with how the Americans abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviet retreat.

1988-92
The BCCI scandal breaks. The bank is exposed for being a massive criminal enterprise, catering to some of the most notorious villains of the 20th century, including Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, terrorist leaders Abu Nidal, and the Medellin drug cartel and for being involved in money laundering, the Iran contra scandal, and pilfering investors’ cash. At the time of its collapse, Khalid Bin Mahfouz (see above) was COO of BCCI, and is eventually fined $225-million to settle felony charges for stealing investors’ money.

1991
The first Gulf War occurs, whereby George H. W. Bush is determined to push Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait to ensure the Iraqi dictator doesn’t have a stranglehold on world oil markets. Osama bin Laden urges the Saudi royal family to find an Arab solution, by raising an army on their own to fight Hussein. When the royal family invites the U.S. in to do the job instead, Bin Laden becomes disenchanted with the House of al-Saud. His anger grows when after the war the US leaves 20,000 troops behind in Saudi Arabia. Soon Bin Laden makes a deal with the Saudi royal family: he is allowed to leave the kingdom with his fortune, and will receive funding for al Qaeda from various Saudi charities and banks, but in return he must not launch attacks against the royal family. Bin Laden settles in the Sudan, aiming his ire at the US.

1992
George H. W. Bush loses to Bill Clinton. Eventually the former president becomes an adviser to the Carlyle Group, a powerful Washington-based private investment firm with interests in the defense industry. Among his duties, Bush helps strengthen Carlyle’s ties to the Saudi royal family. He will later visit Saudi Arabia and the bin Laden family compound. The bin Ladens eventually invest in the Carlyle Group. Carlyle buys a company called Vinnell Corp., which provides training to the Saudi palace guard. George W. Bush briefly sits on the board of directors of one of Carlyle’s subsidiaries.

1993
The first attack on the World Trade Centre, which is connected to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, occurs.

1994
George W. Bush becomes governor of Texas.

1995
Five American soldiers are killed in a car bomb in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis quickly execute the suspects they arrest, ignoring wishes from the FBI to interrogate them beforehand.

The Taliban come to power in Afghanistan with the backing of Pakistan’s notorious intelligence agency, the ISI.

1996
Osama bin Laden is forced to move from the Sudan to Afghanistan under pressure from the Clinton administration. Neither the US nor the Saudis make an effort to arrest him – despite the opportunity offered up to them by the Sudanese government.

June
A truck bomb blows up the al-Khobar barracks, housing US air force personnel in Saudi Arabia, killing 19 soldiers. A group called Saudi Hezbollah claims responsibility. Eventually, the Clinton administration drops the investigation because it does not want to upset relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran – the country that funds Hezbollah.

Summer
A meeting of prominent Saudis occurs in a Paris hotel. Among the attendees is the head of Saudi intelligence, Turki bin Faisal, and Khalid bin Mahfouz. They meet with a representative of al Qaeda and agree to extend the earlier arrangement made between the Saudi royal family and Osama bin Laden – whereby in return for cash, al Qaeda agrees not to attack inside Saudi Arabia.

The CIA produces an internal report that documents the numerous Saudi charities that are funding terrorists. Osama bin Laden’s name is mentioned.

1998
Al Qaeda makes it most audacious attack to date by blowing up US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people.

[saz]

January 2000
Ziad Jarrah, pilot of Flight 93, which would crash into a field in Pennsylvania on 9/11, is stopped and interrogated at an airport in United Arab Emirates (UAE). He is returning from al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and is carrying Islamic religious material on him. The US is informed of the interrogation but not the details.

January
A high-powered meeting of al Qaeda occurs in an apartment complex in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. Attending the meeting is Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, the number three man in al Qaeda and mastermind behind the 1998 US embassy attacks, and architect of the USS Cole and 9/11 attacks to come. Also at the meeting is Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, two Saudi citizens who would end up as hijackers on Flight 77, the plane that crashes into the Pentagon on 9/11.

The CIA learns about the meeting beforehand and asks the Malaysian secret police to place it under surveillance. Video footage and photographs of the dozen men in attendance are taken, though no tape recording is possible. After the meeting breaks up, Al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar fly to the US on their own passports, landing in Los Angeles. There they are met by Omar al-Bayoumi, a Saudi national who works for the Saudi civil aviation authority. Just prior to picking up the two would-be hijackers, Al-Bayoumi meets with a member of the Saudi consulate in LA – a man connected to terrorist activity.

Al-Bayoumi takes al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi to San Diego, puts them up in an apartment, signs a lease, holds a party for them, enrolls them in flight school and gives them money. Later, the FBI concludes that al-Bayoumi is likely a Saudi intelligence agent. Al-Bayoumi also passes on thousands of dollars to the hijackers that originate from Princess Haifa, wife of Prince Bandar Saudi ambassador to the US.

May-June
Members of the Hamburg cell, including ringleader Mohammed Atta, enter the US. They are traveling on Saudi visas, all of which contain errors on them.

September
Al-Hazmi and Al-Mihdhar move into the home of a local imam in San Diego, Abdussattar Shaikh. The imam is an FBI informant. In fact, Shaikh holds meetings with his FBI handler while al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar sit in a room next door. Shaikh contends he was never told what mission the hijackers were on. His FBI handler, meanwhile, was never informed by his superiors to look out for al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar.

October
The USS Cole, sitting in a harbour off the coast of Yemen, is attacked by a boat laden with explosives, killing 17 sailors.

November
George W. Bush is elected president of the US in a contested election. Support for his campaign from the oil industry is generous.

2001
In the months leading up to 9/11, the CIA, FBI and National Security Agency receive a burgeoning mountain of intelligence that a terrorist attack of some magnitude, and launched by Al Qaeda, is imminent. They assume the attack will happen overseas.

January
The CIA and FBI begin to piece together the importance of the individuals who met a year earlier in Malaysia. Despite the information they have, neither al-Hazmi nor al-Mihdhar are placed on the State Department and Customs watch list.

April
Al-Hazmi is stopped for speeding in Oklahoma. He is let go because his name does not appear in the police officer’s data bank as a wanted man.

May
The CIA will later determine that Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, architect of 9/11 and al Qaeda’s other attacks, was entering the US as late as this month, despite the fact he is a well-known figure in the terrorist netherworld, his name first becoming known to the CIA as early as 1995.

June
CIA and FBI meet to talk about al-Mihdhar. But the CIA does not hand over critical information to the FBI. Again, the men are not placed on any watch list and a search for them is not initiated.

July
A Phoenix, Az.-based FBI counter-terrorism agent writes a lengthy memo in which he says it has been noticed that a high number of Arabs, possibly with connections to al Qaeda, are taking flying lessons in local flight schools. His memo is ignored by FBI headquarters.

August
President Bush receives a detailed and lengthy presidential daily briefing from the CIA in which Osama Bin Laden and al Qaeda’s aim of launching an attack against the US is discussed. To this day, the Bush White House refuses to release the contents of this briefing to Congressional inquiries into 9/11.

The CIA finally puts al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar’s name on the watch lists. By then it is too late. The FBI and CIA do a limited search for the men.

Sept. 11/2001
The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets with members of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at the meeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S. without questioning two days later.

[saz]

Unocal and the Taliban = $$$ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm)

Taliban and Texas (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=%2Farchive%2F1997%2F12%2F14 %2Fwtal14.html)

And of course, how could we forget about Cheney, Haliburton and Iraq:

Still on the payroll (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,912515,00.html)

Cheney's boys (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6008)

Halliburton reaping huge profits (http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Iraq_Halliburton_082803.htm)

Iraq war boosts Halliburton profits

Wednesday 28 April 2004, 23:44 Makka Time, 20:44 GMT

Controversial US oil and services group Halliburton has said that its contracts in Iraq had helped boost its turnover by about 80% in the first three months of the year.

Support work to US military operations and US-funded reconstruction projects made up $2.1 billion out of the company's $5.5 billion of revenue in the first quarter, the Houston-based group said in a statement on Wednesday.

The contracts also contributed $32 million of operating profit to Halliburton, which was run from 1995 to 2000 by Vice President Dick Cheney.

The Defence Department is investigating some of the work of Halliburton and its Kellogg, Brown and Root subsidiary following allegations of overcharging. The group has seen 34 workers killed in Iraq since the US invasion last year.

But Halliburton said it was determined to stay in Iraq.

'Committed'

Chief executive Dave Lesar said "we are committed to honour our contracts and I am extremely proud of the tenacity, the courage and sacrifice of our employees in Iraq. In the face of a hostile environment, KBR performs well."

"I am disappointed that the allegations, by politicians and in the media, have increased security risks for our employees," he said.

"We are uniquely qualified to provide military logistical support. We have been doing that for 60 years," Lesar told a conference call.

"We continue to see improvement in the energy services business. While oilfield activity and pricing was essentially flat until late in the first quarter, we are beginning to see signs that customer spending and pricing for our services are improving," Lesar added.

Billion dollar contracts

Halliburton, mainly through KBR, has about six billion dollars worth of contracts in Iraq, mainly for logistics - food supplies for troops, base construction and fuel deliveries. It is also helping to rebuild the Iraq oil industry.

It employs about 20,000 people in Iraq, directly or through sub-contractors.

On top of the 34 dead, truck driver Thomas Hammill is held hostage in Iraq and two others are missing.

Lesar said the value of the contracts hit a peak in the first quarter and would fall from now on, especially after the 30 June handover of power by the US-led occupation in Iraq.

Halliburton said its overall revenues were about 80% higher than the first quarter of 2003 thanks to KBR's engineering and construction work in the Middle East. It said energy services revenues were up 13%.

Consolidated operating profit was $175 million in the first quarter against $142 million in the same period last year.

Halliburton recorded a $65 million loss because of funds put in to pay for compensation for asbestos workers.

[LIMERICKFILE]

(y) Well done, sir.

[saz]

Ever hear of Richard Clarke (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/19/60minutes/main607356.shtml)? How about Paul O'Neill (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml)? Better yet...how about General Anthony Zinni (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/21/60minutes/main618896.shtml)?

This administration has given us nothing but lies (http://www.latimes.com/la-na-cia11oct11,0,2360915.story), lies (http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book23Ch.10.html) and more lies (http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=5565&fcategory_desc=Media%20Lies%20and%20Right%20Wing%2 0Bias). And then, of course, the shit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3426703.stm) eventually hit the fan (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3909150/). And this was all confirmed for a second time (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3812351.stm).

And how we forgot about James Baker and his law firm defending (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067906/) the Saudis against the lawsuit filed by the families of the victims of 9/11?

This is the balk of Michael Moore's film. He did not make this up. Moore is not lying. Welcome to the real world.

[GreenEarthAl]

They are attacking Moore from both sides just so you know. In addition to all of the conservative commentators on cable news talking about how MOore hates America there is also a whole lot of left wing attack content trying to peel away at his base claiming that Moore is either not a real progressive, or taking advantage of the suspicious nature of those who question authority and claiming that Moore is secretly in cahoots with the system in some way.

The only really odd thing is that they are spending all of this money on the perception that Moore's work is more egregiously false than almost anything else you might ever hope to see which is just silly. They can't come out and simply state their real objection, that so many people actually WANT TO see a movie that is critical of the president. And that perhaps that is an indication that SOMETHING has been missing in the media.

So whatever. They're doing the best they can to damage control everything and given their money and influence who knows how successful they'll be. This movie alone won't do anything if there's nothing substantial to follow it up. All of the people, Moore included, throwing a party because they managed to release this movie in June are overstating what they've accomplished. A lot can happen between now and November. So I'm curious about whether anyone's planning an encore.

[saz]

There's no doubt in my mind that Moore is indeed a true progressive. However it is quite disheartening how he is too much of a partisan Democrat at times...this is evident in Fahrenheit 9/11. It would have been truly rewarding if Moore had done the right thing and endorsed Dennis Kucinich, yet he chose to go with Clark. And this is quite understandable...think about it. Moore has stood by, like millions of other Americans, and watched his country slowly but surely go down the toilet as the Bush administration leads the country into war after war, followed by controversy by controversy, and all of the documented lies and bullshit concerning ties to al-Qaeda, WMDs and so forth. Moore went with his gut instinct, he viewed Clark at the time as the candidate who had the best chance at defeating Bush in an election. He was desperate and I can sympathize with that. I believe that Moore hasn't entirely given up on the Democrats (and neither have I), but it would be very rewarding and especially for his sake, if his next film focusses on how the Democrats changed under Bill Clinton and the DNC, and adopted the economic policies of the Republicans (NAFTA, GAT, etc.), while alienating the traditional Democratic populist, working-class base of support.

[EN[i]GMA]

Not to question your facts, but I'm going to have question your facts.

A lot of it is simply coincedence. Not to defend anyone that doesn't deserve defending but those "links" blow things way out of proportion. Using those business deals to insinuate some sinister plot or the other is stretching the truth.

Quite simply, that doesn't add up to a whole lot. Bush ran an oil company, Suadis have oil. Of couse there was a link but it doesn't add up to anything.

Just because the "facts" are there doesn't mean the facts are there.

Thats what the movie is; insinuation and hyperbole.

And no I haven't fucking seen it.

[saz]

The Bushes have a long and unsavoury history of doing business with Saudi Arabia and the bin Laden family. Bush II's oil ventures were funded by the bin Laden family. At the very least, this does not look very good. Now, when George Sr. visits with his Saudi friends nowadays, is he representing the Carlye Group? Or as an ex-President, is he representing Americans and the United States of America? And just why does Bush Sr. need to see daily CIA briefings for? There are serious, serious ethical questions here. And no, it isn't about controlling the world or some sort of conspiracy. It is about money, plain and simple. Saudia Arabia has approximately $800 billion invested in the United States. They own 7% of the American economy. Members of the Saudi elite and Saudi Royal Family funded al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden directly. 15 of the 19 hijackers in the 9/11 attacks were Saudi Arabians. "You're either with us or against us" What about Saudi Arabia then? This is serious...really fucking serious. The Bushes must be held accountable for this. Doesn't it say something to you when James Baker and his law firm are representing and defending Saudi Arabia, in the lawsuit filed against them by the families of the 9/11 victims? What about Lockheed Martin, the Carlye Group and Haliburton raking in enormous profits from 9/11 and the illegal invasion of Iraq? What about Dick Cheney still receving payments from Haliburton?

[saz]

This is how Bush supports the troops (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24665-2004Mar2?language=printer)...but they say it the best (http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/supportTheTroops.asp).

[what_the_doofus]

richard clarke was the guy who let the saudis leave right after 9/11.

and im not saying any of the other stuff isn't true, but dont believe everything you say. Just as you say "heres stuff you wont see on your conservative sites"

theres stuff you wont see on your liberal sites.

[saz]

Don't believe everything I say? You fuckin' moron....these aren't from "liberal" sites. Perhaps if you read the papers, watched the news (and not the watered down corporate biased American bullshit) and followed current events, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.

And no...Clarke was not the one who authorized the Saudis to leave after 9/11. He did not have that kind of authority.

[rorschach]

The only reason why Michael Moore's opinions are of any value is that he speaks out and points out the awful truth... While anyone else, especially the mainstream US media , sticks to pre-fabricated concepts and supposedly "patriotic" ideals.

I don't like him, though. I don't think I have to like him. He's a self-centered, populist "rebel" who enjoys the media attention more than the facts (see: ROGER & ME). And as a documentary filmmaker his not that damn good.

I don't like those knee-jerk "patriots" around here either, but the liberal, left-of-center people who just ... adore him aren't that much better, either. It's all quite superficial, basically.

[EN[i]GMA]

Clarke WAS the one who authorized it. They said "high ranking members" generally meaning Prez/VP but it was Clarke since he was head of anti-terrorism. And again, it was Clarke who allowed them to leave.

I'm just saying these links don't add up to anything. Bush being with the Carlyle group for a little while (not during any of the large transactions with the Saudis) and then turning down a weapons system of theirs (The Crusader) that would have made them billions, doesn't sound to strange to me.



http://www.rainbowbody.net/Ongwhehonwhe/currentevent.htm

Link doesn't support my arguement but it has a ton of incredible papers on a range of topics. Highly recomend.

[saz]

How do you know this? Where are you getting this from? This is certainly the first I've heard of this. Who said "high ranking members"? It seems as if you're just generalizing and assuming that it was Clarke. If it in fact really was, then please enlighten me. And just because Clarke was in charge of terrorism doesn't mean squat. If you know the story, you're more than well aware that Clarke was systematically shut out of the decision making process and wasn't taken seriously whatsoever. I'll have to go over all of the old Clarke reports concerning his testimony and book.

These links don't add up to anything? The fuck's wrong with you? Bush II being funded by the bin Laden family? Saudi Arabia getting a pass in the War on Terrorism because of the stake they hold in the US economy? Bush I wining and dining with the Saudis and bin Ladens on Sept. 11? This is just the tip of the iceberg...not to mention Cheney's cronyism and profiteering, but worst of all the Bush administrations pathetic response to the War on Terrorism (only 11,000 troops in Afghanistan, two month head start given to Osama, able to escape at Tora Bora) and the Patriot Act allowing law enforcement to infiltrate and spy on peace groups and ordinary citizens.

[saz]

Yeah...there's nothing much going on between the Saudis and the Bushes.

Read me (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/white.pdf)

"IN TERMS OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE BUSHES AND THE
SAUDIS – WAS THERE SUPPORT FOR HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN?

My understanding from Bath was that they were making campaign contributions by taking brief cases full of cash to the law firms. They would give the cash to the lawyers and then each of the lawyers in turn would make a thousand dollar campaign contribution to Bush or Bentsen or whomever.

WHICH WOULD PRESUMABLY BE AGAINST ELECTORAL LAW.

Well, it is against the law but it’s obviously concealed by virtue of the Attorneys making the contributions. And that’s my understanding of how it worked. Again I didn’t see the money changing hands.

BUT BATH EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU?

Yes.

IN THOSE TERMS?

And he also did it himself in his own dealings with the City of Houston. He even arranged for the employees to make thousand dollar campaign contributions to the City, the Houston City Councilmen who sat on the
Aviation Committee and awarded him the grant of an FBO Franchise at
Houston’s Ellington Airport. Then Bath would reimburse everyone who made the thousand-dollar contribution which is the statuatory limit in cash allowed from a single donor.

WHICH AGAIN WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW.

Well of course it’s against the law. But that’s the way Bath operated. He told me when he did it that he was mimicking the Saudi funding of the Bush campaign."

[ChrisLove]

Can someone quickly (and succinctly) explain to me...

a. Why is it a problem that Bush is conected to the Bin Ladens?
b. Why is it controversial that they were flown out of the country after 9/11?


Is the premise in the Moore film that the Bin Laden family was involved in 9/11?

Im sure its all buried in here but Im not in a reading mood...sorry

[brendan]

attention right wingers, pro-bushers, and anti-f/911ers...you just got knocked the fuck out!!!!!

anasazi for president!!!!

[adam_f]

I have an idea. Instead of making a post that 15,000 words, how about just give us the gist. We know, you hate Bush, but going year by year is a wee bit over the top for those who don't like to read novels on a message board.

[TheWedge]

I have an idea. Instead of making a post that 15,000 words, how about just give us the gist. We know, you hate Bush, but going year by year is a wee bit over the top for those who don't like to read novels on a message board.

I think the simple approach was tried before.

[EN[i]GMA]

If we did the "simple thing" it would get kind of repetitive.

[adam_f]

Good point. My bad.

[saz]

Why is it a problem that Bush is conected to the Bin Ladens?
b. Why is it controversial that they were flown out of the country after 9/11?

Is the premise in the Moore film that the Bin Laden family was involved in 9/11?

The bin Laden family were involved with business ventures with the Bushes. The bin Ladens did not "disown" Osama and cut him off...some of the bin Ladens went to Afghanistan just before 9/11 for a marriage. Osama bin Laden was the prime suspect after 9/11...law enforcement will always conduct thorough interviews with the family and relatives of criminals and murder suspects. It appears that the Bush administration were aiding and abetting the bin Ladens and other Saudi Arabians after the attacks and getting them the fuck out asap. This was at a time when relatives of the victims couldn't fly to be with other family members, or to find out if they had lost their loved ones in the attacks. Just imagine what the reaction would have been of the American right if the Clinton administration had helped the family of Timothy McVeigh flee the country without following proper procedure and questioning them at great length. Also, consider if Clinton had a long history of doing business with the McVeigh family, or extremists who funded violence, murder and terrorist acts. The premise of the Moore film is what I'm outlining in this thread. And if you don't like to read...you're either too lazy or a fuckin' moron.

[ChrisLove]

Thank you, I will see the movie then comment further - as I recall the excuse given at the time was that the action was taken to prevent vigilante reprisals against the famly - which seemed not unreasonable to me.

Also I would presume that as Bin Laden was not a ne enemy of the states tere was already significant intellegence regarding his relationship with family members (and maybe monitoring/bugging too) so it seems not impossible t me thatthe extent of the families involvement could have been known without extensive interview. I should probably see the film tho!

[saz]

Michael Moore in Time Magazine (http://media.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/mike-times.jpg)

"There's lots of disagreement with my analysis of these facts or my opinion based on the facts. But," he insists, "there is not a single factual error in the movie. I'm thinking of offering a $10,000 reward for anyone that can find a single fact that's wrong."

"I'm not just preaching to the choir. And it's not just the choir giving the ovation. I've got letters from a bunch of Marines who went to see it at a theater near Twentynine Palms, Calif. A church group in Tulsa went to see it and was incredibly moved. There was a Republican woman in Florida unable to get out of her seat, crying."

In the press, Fahrenheit 9/11 has made news with its assertions of White House duplicity. But in theaters, the movie can hit home, especially for those who have loved ones in Iraq. Greg Rohwer-Selken, 33, of Ames, Iowa, and his wife Karol are former Army reservists who both volunteered for Afghanistan (but weren't sent). Now Karol is serving in the National Guard in Iraq. After seeing Fahrenheit 9/11 in Des Moines, Rohwer-Selken wipes away tears as he says, "It really made me question why she has to be over there." (The Army and Air Force Exchange Service, which books films to be shown on military bases around the world, has contacted Fahrenheit's distributor to book the film.)

"I didn't have any of this so-called success until I was 35 years old with Roger & Me. Up until that point, I never made more than $15,000 a year. When you spend the first 17 years--in other words, half--of your adult life earning $15,000 or less, it really doesn't matter what kind of success you have after that. It's so ingrained in you."

The World According To Michael;
Taking aim at George W., a populist agitator makes noise, news and a new kind of political entertainment (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/mikeinthenews/index.php?id=62)

[Ali]

[ASsman]

Nice Job.

[bilbo]

Excellent work Anasazi! (y)

[D_Raay]

I have an idea. Instead of making a post that 15,000 words, how about just give us the gist. We know, you hate Bush, but going year by year is a wee bit over the top for those who don't like to read novels on a message board.
LOL teheee. You know you are a liberal at heart Adam f. ;) Nice job anasazi!

[Burnout18]

Nice theory

[Bob]

i love that response to threads like these:

"make it shorter hippie"

"interesting"

"no"

"that's propaganda"

"that source doesn't count, he's a liberal"

[Manji]

Is there some reason this thread is important enough to be a sticky?
Are we to believe that this is not a forum for a free exchange of ideas about politics? Is a agreement on the political agenda of the Democratic party a pre-requisite for membership at beastieboys.com? Are other people, who disagree, but happen to enjoy B-Boys music and political discussion not welcome here? Sometimes I get that impression...Am I correct to feel this way?
I would prefer the response of an Admin or something who has a represenative view of Beastieboys.com but I welcome all responses.

Cheers!

[Vladimir]

I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK THATS NOT THE TRUTH LIKE IT OR NOT JESUS LOVES YOU AND YOU ARE IN MY PRAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry guys, I just thought I would beat gmsisko1 to the punch.

[LIMERICKFILE]

I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK THATS NOT THE TRUTH LIKE IT OR NOT JESUS LOVES YOU AND YOU ARE IN MY PRAYERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry guys, I just thought I would beat gmsisko1 to the punch.

You forgot the "YOUR NEXT BREATH ISN'T PROMISED TO YOU" part.....it's crucial. :D

[mcaismyhero]

Is there some reason this thread is important enough to be a sticky?
Are we to believe that this is not a forum for a free exchange of ideas about politics? Is a agreement on the political agenda of the Democratic party a pre-requisite for membership at beastieboys.com? Are other people, who disagree, but happen to enjoy B-Boys music and political discussion not welcome here? Sometimes I get that impression...Am I correct to feel this way?
I would prefer the response of an Admin or something who has a represenative view of Beastieboys.com but I welcome all responses.

Cheers!

That sometimes seems to be the case.

[saz]

Is there some reason this thread is important enough to be a sticky? Are we to believe that this is not a forum for a free exchange of ideas about politics? Is a agreement on the political agenda of the Democratic party a pre-requisite for membership at beastieboys.com? Are other people, who disagree, but happen to enjoy B-Boys music and political discussion not welcome here? Sometimes I get that impression...Am I correct to feel this way?
I would prefer the response of an Admin or something who has a represenative view of Beastieboys.com but I welcome all responses.


Perhaps because enough people enjoyed it and got info from it....the same reason why I peruse this forum. Of course it's a forum for a free exchange of ideas...however stupidity just won't be tolerated by a lot of us. There have been enough pro-Bush neo-con board trolls passing through here in the last eight months or so and after a while it gets pretty fucking annoying, when morons pass through and spew the same crap over and over again. They all come across the same way, generalize and talk out of their ass (ie: Malibugangsta, seraut, beastiefan, AngryWhite, gmsisko1, etc.) Their misinformed perceptions, generalizations and viewpoints have been debunked and disproven time and time again. Specifically, in regards to Michael Moore and Farenheit 9/11. The anti-Moore crap got very tiresome so I decided to post this thread. And a lot of us in here can't stand the Democratic Party and what it has become: a centre-right party serving the interests of corporate America. I still think there's some hope left for it, with progressives such as Dennis Kucinich, Carol Mosely-Braun and Cynthia McKinney. But anyways, you'll find that many, not all, but a lot of us are Nader or Green supporters. Anyways, differing viewpoints are welcome but board trolls will get the preverbial verbal beat down. Posters like Rich Cheney, for instance, who isn't a leftie, is a great example of someone who's clearly very intelligent, can think for himself but doesn't fall into line with the neo-con Bushies. I'd love more of that and less of the predictable trolls. I've been hard on him, but I like what I see from Jasonik.

[Manji]

But you call "pro-Bush neo-cons" morons and use terms like "neo-con Bushies" with negative connotations. I mean I can understand and even support anything against trolls. But do you think all Conservatives or Republicans are just evil people not deserving of any respect? I'm not accusing either, I just sense that from the majority here.
I feel like these are athletic teams and the rival has an unwelcomed presence on the board. I hear talk of peace and love and fairness when it comes to the one side but them find someone who doesn't agree it's
all guns blazing-war, hate, the ends justifies the means type of stuff. It's disheartening.

My question about this being a sticky is that It seemed to me like an angry anti-republican, anti-conservative rant. The fact that the board ops made it stand atop the rest of the threads, basically implies IMHO that republicans are not welcome here. I, like probably everyone here, am for the freedom of speech. When it comes to discussions, I really don't think stifling the opposition is right. Trolls should just be ignored. I see a lot of other types of bait threads out there not just "neo-cons" When I see them I just don't dignify them with a response. But hey that's me...

[mcaismyhero]

Yeah man I agree. It seems that even those who are somewhat Republican (like me) are ripped apart even when trying not to be an idiot (like gmsisko) and listen to everybody's arguments. I have been proved wrong here many a time and I shut my mouth. But it seems that even when I try to listen to both sides of an argument I am stifled. I don't know if anyone else feels this way but it is just something I noticed.

[lil richard]

This is one fucked up world we live in :(

[saz]

Of course I call pro-Bush people and neo-cons morons, while using terms like "neo-con Bushies" with negative connotations....because the neo-cons are alienating traditional conservatives with their blatant war-mongering, out-of-control spending/massive deficits, while isolating American allies. Traditional conservatives are now beginning to recognize that the current administration is doing nothing but further sowing the seeds of American resentment around the world. And as far as name-calling goes...they're just words on a screen, an internet message board....don't take it seriously. If you think it's tough here, you should've been here a year ago. (And it'll likely be that way again when the new album hype dies down and the admin relaxes, because it's all in good fun and for a good laugh). You two are doing alright, but be warned that in the past any username with something Beastie-related in it, or a Beastie-related avatar would be a call to arms for many of our sarcastic baters who are on vacation. And as far as this sticky is concerned, this is a Beastie Boys board, who have made their politics over the years no secret...and considering the lyrical content of their new album, a heavy leftist slant on their political board should be expected. Again, this thread was conceived as a response to all the anti-Moore crap that was being posted on here....it was getting too redundant and annoying. It wasn't an anti-Republican rant....personally, I'd say about 1% of the Republican Party is honourable and non-corporate (John McCain, Orin Hatch), while about 10% of the Democratic Party is true to form (Kucinich, Braun, McKinney).

[mcaismyhero]

If you think it's tough here, you should've been here a year ago. (And it'll likely be that way again when the new album hype dies down and the admin relaxes, because it's all in good fun and for a good laugh). You two are doing alright, but be warned that in the past any username with something Beastie-related in it, or a Beastie-related avatar would be a call to arms for many of our sarcastic baters who are on vacation.

When I signed up for the board I was just trying to think of something easy and quick to think of...I probably should have thought of something else but I didn't think I'd get too involved with the board. But I did and I can't change it. At least I have a non-beastie avtar.

And name calling doesn't bother me that much, it's more people (on both sides of the spectrum) who don't listen to other people's arguments. I have always known the Beasties to be somewhat political, and it has never bothered me. I know that musicians always have agendas (rock musicians anyway) and I will still listen to the music because I like their lyrics and their beats and their ideas. It should be a nonissue.

[lil richard]

And if this is such a fucked up world we live in
should we all die cause its our fault or what?
Or maybe its becouse of the government

[shuriken]

this isn't in a sarcastic tone. i honestly dont know and id like to. is it true that in fahrenheit 9/11 conversational audio is rearranged to make it seem like theyre saying something different or is that just more "neo-con propaganda" or whatever u call it?

[Ace42]

this isn't in a sarcastic tone. i honestly dont know and id like to. is it true that in fahrenheit 9/11 conversational audio is rearranged to make it seem like theyre saying something different or is that just more "neo-con propaganda" or whatever u call it?

It's a lie. When they say "it was taken out of context" they do not mean they have edited it a la:
http://www.thesmokehammer.com/

It is a blanket excuse used whenever someone gets caught saying something they shouldn't. What they mean is "Yeah, but I was saying those racist comments to OTHER racists, so in that context, it was socially acceptable!" etc

Having gone through the point by point criticism of the film, I found the majority of the *Criticisms* of the film to be based on selective evidence and misrepresentations of the facts.

[shuriken]

okay thanks for clearing that up.

[sneakyimp]

hey manji:

just because it's a sticky, don't think that your viewpoint is being oppressed. this sticky started off as presentation of facts. biased facts? maybe. but at least no one is trying to stifle your opinion.

try posting at http://hannity.com

[Manji]

hey manji:

just because it's a sticky, don't think that your viewpoint is being oppressed. this sticky started off as presentation of facts. biased facts? maybe. but at least no one is trying to stifle your opinion.

try posting at http://hannity.com

What do you mean MY viewpoint? MY OPINION? Huh? Do you mean to say that if I don't agree with a liberal/progressive viewpoint I must surely be a "neo-con bushie?"
--hannity.com? Are they as accepting of all viewpoints as you are?

If you're to the left even the center is to the right of you...

[FunkyHiFi]

This is for the people with short-attention spans



As far as what political party or individual citizen I respect, these are my qualifications:

If you want to truly help America & her citizens, in the short and the long-term, you're O.K. with me.

If you want to help only yourself and a few select cronies by USING America and her citizens to do this, get the fuck out of my face.

[bigkidpants]

This is for the people with short-attention spans



As far as what political party or individual citizen I respect, these are my qualifications:

If you want to truly help America & her citizens, in the short and the long-term, you're O.K. with me.

If you want to help only yourself and a few select cronies by USING America and her citizens to do this, get the fuck out of my face.
foe real.

[meng]

great post...I just noticed it now.....

[freetibet]

HELLLOOOO!!! Is this General Left Wing Discussion? :confused:

[saz]

look at the baby cry

[nskk]

HELL YEA BUCK FUSH

[ClifRa JOnes]

The spice must flow!

'nough said!

[Rancid_Beasties]

Yeah man I agree. It seems that even those who are somewhat Republican (like me) are ripped apart even when trying not to be an idiot (like gmsisko) and listen to everybody's arguments. I have been proved wrong here many a time and I shut my mouth. But it seems that even when I try to listen to both sides of an argument I am stifled. I don't know if anyone else feels this way but it is just something I noticed.

Its not hard to see how wars start, when you look at the way conflict on a small scale, such as on this board, causes such strong emotions. In the words of Kamal "Why are people so unkind?"

Because thats human nature, and whether you like it or not people will always try to push their ideals on you. In the words of the Beastie Boys "Deal with it!!"

[Grasshopper]

just to get back on track. Ann Coulter has vagina with teeth => see

look at Ann's hoo-haw (http://www.rotten.com/library/sex/vagina-dentata/vdentata1.jpg)

[EF shhhh Hutton]

I skimmed thru some of it..It was too long bro....got the cliff notes?

::quick cociane snort off the end of a butterknife::: (I now look like ray liotta at the end of "goodfellas")


This is some good carpet dope.

[Destroyer]

HELLLOOOO!!! Is this General Left Wing Discussion? :confused:

Go to hell infidel. Great thread Anasazi.

All praise due to Allah.

[boogshouse]

So, John Kerry is a better choice? Nader? Can the world today live without oil? If the cars ,trucks, planes, heating ,generating electricity,do not work billions of people die. Will we drill for oil here in the U.S. Not if the environmentalists can help it. How do we become independent of foreign oil? All these career politicians have dirty connections. Right now I want the guy who is killing Islamo fascism. Why don't you write a nice long article on Islamo Fascism and what Neville Chamberlain did in 1938 to appease Hitler and Mossulini. Appeasement and diplomacy do not stop a genocidal threat! :D

[paulk]

So, John Kerry is a better choice? Nader? Can the world today live without oil? If the cars ,trucks, planes, heating ,generating electricity,do not work billions of people die. Will we drill for oil here in the U.S. Not if the environmentalists can help it. How do we become independent of foreign oil? All these career politicians have dirty connections. Right now I want the guy who is killing Islamo fascism. Why don't you write a nice long article on Islamo Fascism and what Neville Chamberlain did in 1938 to appease Hitler and Mossulini. Appeasement and diplomacy do not stop a genocidal threat! :D

Why don't you write a nice long artice for us, about Islamo fascism. You seem to be so obsessed with it.

[boogshouse]

Why don't you write a nice long artice for us, about Islamo fascism. You seem to be so obsessed with it.
It leaves a better impression if you find it for yourself. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"
The games begin tomarrow good luck.

[El Nino]

I don't know what scares me more, Bin Laden's Islamo fascism or Bush brand Christian fanaticism. I'll tell you one thing though, I haven't heard any talk of end of the world / rapture type scenarios from the Islamists. Just death to America for fucking with them. The Christian right seems to be not only embracing the apocalypse but pushing America for a foreign policy that ensures it. See you all in hell.

[adrockmelanie]

it's ok. we're moving to canada anyway.

[g-mile7]

lol at this. all your opinion and others, in the end none of us trully know whats going on in the white house, so taking sum1 like Moores word and facts as truth is faulty logic, think with an open mind not one that finds all the negatives bout Bush

[ASsman]

lol at this. all your opinion and others, in the end none of us trully know whats going on in the white house, so taking sum1 like Moores word and facts as truth is faulty logic, think with an open mind not one that finds all the negatives bout Bush
Learn to type, or ask your mother to do it for you. As for opinions..... Those were all arguments backed up by facts. Unlike what you have posted which is pure opinion. Moron.

[sheezymyneezy88]

I don't see what makes Moore any worse than watching Sinclair Broadcasting Corp., a.k.a. biased Bush supporter,-owned Fox News channels.

[ASsman]

I don't see what makes Moore any worse than watching Sinclair Broadcasting Corp.
That's part of the problem. You are ignorant.

[sheezymyneezy88]

That's part of the problem. You are ignorant.

How the fuck am I ignorant? This is the shit you call news.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/19/sinclair.kerry/index.html

[Ace42]

Urm, for starters, you can't distinguish between a CNN news article and Michael Moore movie?

[endofmystump]

Good 'ole Michael "Feed Me" Moore. What a slob.

[ASsman]

Nice job, your maturity lever has just risen.

[endofmystump]

Like you Man of Ass, I can relate on lots of levels. However, I don't pigeon-hole myself to one side or the other.

[ASsman]

Are you actually conceding to the fact you act imaturely with no other objective than to act like a child?

[endofmystump]

For humor, to make a point, or sometimes simply to act as a child (aka have fun) I suppose. How about you. What makes you so base, immature and inflexible at times?

[sheezymyneezy88]

Urm, for starters, you can't distinguish between a CNN news article and Michael Moore movie?

I'm not sure what this means, but I was trying to point out that Fox is biased. Take it from whatever article you want, there are plenty from which you can choose. They created propaganda and fired anyone who spoke out against it. I don't understand how people can criticize Moore and not complain about Fox at the same time.

[ASsman]

That is because they are idiots. Oh, and Fox doesn't need to release any sources.

[drobertson420]

Nice job, your maturity lever has just risen.

My Maturity Lever rises every morning... :D

[Ace42]

I'm not sure what this means, but I was trying to point out that Fox is biased. Take it from whatever article you want, there are plenty from which you can choose. They created propaganda and fired anyone who spoke out against it. I don't understand how people can criticize Moore and not complain about Fox at the same time.


It was a forum burp. My copy and pasting was to avoid my message getting lost in the inevitable "forum busy" message. Which didn't work because my clipboard had something else in it, and then I clicked the wrong button, and it wasn't really worth saying in the first place. So just ignore it.

[drobertson420]

Nice job, your maturity lever has just risen.

My Maturity Lever rises every morning... :D



....And Thank The Heavens for that!!!!

[drobertson420]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer
Go to hell infidel. Great thread Anasazi.

All praise due to Allah.



Don't forget Buddah




...And Clapton! :D

[Whois]

It leaves a better impression if you find it for yourself. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"
The games begin tomarrow good luck.

You made an assertion, you need to back it up.

[Whois]

lol at this. all your opinion and others, in the end none of us trully know whats going on in the white house, so taking sum1 like Moores word and facts as truth is faulty logic, think with an open mind not one that finds all the negatives bout Bush

Have you ever thought about using english?

[fonky pizza]

So you can't watch Micheal Moore's movie Fahrenheit 9/11 anywhere in the States???

[ASsman]

If you're blind.