Maher and Moore on their knees

[greedygretchen]

did anyone watch the season premiere of Real Time with Bill Maher?

Michael Moore and Bill Maher got on their knees to beg Ralph Nader to drop out of the race but I thought the most eloquent argument against Nader's candidacy came from the Canadian prime minister who essentially (this means i'm paraphrasing) told Ralph that while third party candidacy in Canada can lead to seats in the House of Commons (which led to things like single payer healthcare),in America it will lead to basically nothing-but if Ralph allies himself with the Democrats and throws his votes to the Democrats that he may then be put in a favorable position in the Dem's adminstration where he can affect change. (prime minister Kim campbell did not mention Democrats by name)

I like Ralph Nader and I don't think he is evil or hell bent on helping gw get re-elected(even though gw was never elected to begin with) as some people on the message board have complained-i just think he is standing up as a viable choice to "the lesser of the two evils". Nader also made a good point on the show that Michael Moore has a link on his website to oppose all Congress members who voted for the war and Nader pointed out that that means John Kerry. But being that mainstream America is conditioned to accept the two-party system, Ralph allying himself with the Democrats and using that alliance to initiate change seems more plausible-but then would Ralph be selling out?

also, the republican on the panel (i forgot his name) was very well-spoken but still he cannot admit on any level that President Bush was wrong to go into Iraq! I keep hearing "oh it wasn't him-it was the intelligence" and "sadaam=hitler=cruel dictator therefore war=good thing" when will they stop kidding themselves that we went into Iraq to free the Iraqi people? That they are really sending our soldiers to die over money and oil? This republican reserve to stand by President Bush right or wrong is ridiculous.

All in all it was a really good show (y)

to all Bush apologists/supporters:
"Time to eat all your words, swallow your pride, open your eyes..."
-tears for fears "sowing the seeds of love"

[bilbo]

Why does Nader do shit like this?
He's making an ass out of himself.

Workers seek pay for Nader petition


Ralph Nader's presidential campaign this week abruptly abandoned the Center City office that housed its efforts to get on the Pennsylvania ballot, leaving behind a mess of accusations and a damaged building.

The office was emptied Thursday after a raucous scene the night before. Police were called as dozens of homeless people lined up to collect money they said they were owed for circulating petitions on the candidate's behalf.

Many of the circulators were never paid, according to outreach workers and interviews with several men who had collected signatures. "A lot of us were scammed," said Ed Seip, 52, who said he collected more than 200 signatures for Nader.

Nader has until Monday to collect the 25,697 petition signatures required to be on the presidential election ballot. Dan Martino, the campaign's Pennsylvania coordinator, said he believes the campaign is on track to meet that goal.

The quest has drawn national attention because many Democrats believe that Nader, who is running as an independent, could drain enough support from John Kerry to throw Pennsylvania's 21 hotly contested electoral votes to President Bush.

Nader has succeeded in New Jersey, where the state Division of Elections has ruled that his name will appear on the ballot. A spokesman for the New Jersey Attorney General's Office said the deadline for filing challenges to a person's candidacy was Monday, and none was filed.

In Pennsylvania and elsewhere, Nader's campaign has accused Kerry supporters of resorting to dirty tricks to keep the candidate off the ballot.

John Slevin, a ballot-access contractor hired by Nader to run the Pennsylvania petition campaign, said all circulators would be paid. And he speculated that the accusations and chaos at the office were the result of political trickery. "That's the only explanation for it," Slevin said.

He cited both the unexpected arrival of large numbers of homeless people looking for petition work and the calls he received from city officials about payment complaints as examples of possible partisan efforts to derail the campaign.

Slevin began hiring petition circulators two weeks ago with classified advertisements in newspapers and on the Internet.

Petition circulators were told they would be paid from 75 cents to $1 for each valid signature. Half of the money was to be delivered at the end of the day and the balance paid by check the following Wednesday.

But people who showed up Wednesday described a chaotic situation. Lines moved slowly as Slevin and one assistant, protected by armed guards, vetted the petitions for obviously forged signatures. Many in line were shouting and claiming they had been underpaid. As tensions grew, police were called.

By day's end, many left without being paid. Those who returned the next day found the office empty. Slevin said he would mail checks to the addresses people had given when hired. He said he had not planned to move out of the office until the end of the month but would no longer be working there.

One petition circulator has also lodged a complaint with Lance Haver, the city's consumer advocate. "They trashed the place," said Lee Brahim, a co-owner of the building where Slevin had rented an office for the month. Brahim said people had urinated in garbage cans and broken a stairway railing.

The two-week-old effort to collect signatures using hired petition circulators also faced scrutiny last week after reporters witnessed several circulators repeatedly signing each other's forms and telling signers that they could use whatever name they wanted.

Slevin said circulators had been instructed to obey the law.

But one disgruntled circulator said they had not known the rules. "Everyone in the mission was just passing them around from person to person," said Michael Reed Jr., 21, who said he had not been paid.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/9290818.htm

[bilbo]

did anyone watch the season premiere of Real Time with Bill Maher? Michael Moore and Bill Maher got on their knees to beg Ralph Nader to drop out of the race


video clip (http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/nader.html)
Pretty funny. I have never seen Maher's HBO show, it looks pretty good.

[saz]

I thought the most eloquent argument against Nader's candidacy came from the Canadian prime minister who essentially (this means i'm paraphrasing) told Ralph that while third party candidacy in Canada can lead to seats in the House of Commons (which led to things like single payer healthcare),

Bullshit...what led to the introduction of private clinics were Martin's cutbacks in the 90s to bring down the national debt and slimey right-wingers like Klein and Harris violating the Canada Health Act.

[greedygretchen]

Bullshit...what led to the introduction of private clinics were Martin's cutbacks in the 90s to bring down the national debt and slimey right-wingers like Klein and Harris violating the Canada Health Act.

so single payer health care is a bad thing? :confused:

and nader stated that the third-party in Canada brought about some changes (this is where the health care comment came in) and Campbell (former prime minister,sorry shoulda mentioned that before) agreed with him...unfortunately, my knowledge of Canadian politics/politicians is nil (i guess as is the average american's)...so the third party in Canada did not help initiate change and the previous health care system in Canada was better than the current one?

[Kold]

People aren't voting for Kerry, they're voting against Bush. If you vote for Nader, you're essentially throwing your vote away to Bush. Nader's not going to win anyway (obviously), but Bush may if Kerry doesn't get the votes that go to Nader.

I still think Al Sharpton was the best candidate.

[greedygretchen]

i guess i'm an idealist but i wish we could get all of america to rise up and vote for Nader...why are we so conditioned to vote for the "lesser of the two evils"? is that the best we think we deserve?
i don't know...i am not happy with either party. i really am not-and i used to consider myself a die-hard liberal Democrat. what is it gonna take to get someone who cares more about the American people than special interests and/or big business in the Oval Office? Like Nader said on the show (see bilbo's clip-thanks bilbo (y)) "why are we restricting ourselves to these choices when we have so many good people in this country that should be running for president?" word.

[DroppinScience]

and nader stated that the third-party in Canada brought about some changes (this is where the health care comment came in) and Campbell (former prime minister,sorry shoulda mentioned that before) agreed with him...unfortunately, my knowledge of Canadian politics/politicians is nil

Nah, I'm sure you know more than the average American. The fact you knew Kim Campbell was even a Prime Minister (only for a few months in '93) is pretty astounding in and of itself. ;)

[greedygretchen]

Nah, I'm sure you know more than the average American. The fact you knew Kim Campbell was even a Prime Minister (only for a few months in '93) is pretty astounding in and of itself. ;)

very sweet of you but i must say i only knew that because that's what she was introduced on the show as :o

[D_Raay]

i guess i'm an idealist but i wish we could get all of america to rise up and vote for Nader...why are we so conditioned to vote for the "lesser of the two evils"? is that the best we think we deserve?
i don't know...i am not happy with either party. i really am not-and i used to consider myself a die-hard liberal Democrat. what is it gonna take to get someone who cares more about the American people than special interests and/or big business in the Oval Office? Like Nader said on the show (see bilbo's clip-thanks bilbo (y)) "why are we restricting ourselves to these choices when we have so many good people in this country that should be running for president?" word.
Much as I agree with you Gretchen, the vote HAS to be for Kerry. We can't take another 4 years of Bush. The word just isn't out there enough for Nader or Camejo to take it. Sad as it is, I completely agree with Maher's and Moore's plea to Ralph. I was moved by it. Where else would you have seen that but HBO. We can work from there where we go. But for now to the left we go. BTW, that was the best damn episode of Real Time I have ever seen. Hands down. I respect Bill Maher's opinion and before he was kind of moderate. Now he definitely is on the left's side and seems to have thrown caution to the wind. Anyone who hasn't seen it I strongly urge you to make every effort to do so. Moore's dismantling of Dreier was classic and complete. Well, not just Moore but Kim Campbell's and Maher too. See it!

[stillill]

i guess i'm an idealist but i wish we could get all of america to rise up and vote for Nader...why are we so conditioned to vote for the "lesser of the two evils"? is that the best we think we deserve?
i don't know...i am not happy with either party. i really am not-and i used to consider myself a die-hard liberal Democrat. what is it gonna take to get someone who cares more about the American people than special interests and/or big business in the Oval Office? Like Nader said on the show (see bilbo's clip-thanks bilbo (y)) "why are we restricting ourselves to these choices when we have so many good people in this country that should be running for president?" word.

As sad as it is, that is the state of our nation. The reason that we are conditioned to vote this way is becase the majority of voters refuse to vote for a third party candidate. Since this is the way it is, sadly, people do not want to "throw their vote away." In an election year such as this, this issue has really been pushed to the forefront. I would much rather vote for the lesser of two evils when the greater of those evils is Bush. Like him or not, he really has made a difference: narrowing the separation of church and state, fighting environmental progress, pre-emptive strikes, national deficits, and appointing ultra-conservative pro-life judges. The truth is even if by some miracle a third party candidate like Nader was elected, he would receive no backing from the Senate or Congress and would be pretty ineffective.

I know I sound pretty bleak, but I think that change can happen in the future. Politicians are afraid to speak out on topics that they feel will alienate the average voter. That is becase the average voter does not represent the average American! Demographic groups like youths are underrepresented in the voting booths. If more of these people voted, politicians would cater more towards them and might not be so afraid to speak out on certain issues.

[stillill]

Much as I agree with you Gretchen, the vote HAS to be for Kerry. We can't take another 4 years of Bush. The word just isn't out there enough for Nader or Camejo to take it. Sad as it is, I completely agree with Maher's and Moore's plea to Ralph. I was moved by it. Where else would you have seen that but HBO. We can work from there where we go. But for now to the left we go. BTW, that was the best damn episode of Real Time I have ever seen. Hands down. I respect Bill Maher's opinion and before he was kind of moderate. Now he definitely is on the left's side and seems to have thrown caution to the wind. Anyone who hasn't seen it I strongly urge you to make every effort to do so. Moore's dismantling of Dreier was classic and complete. Well, not just Moore but Kim Campbell's and Maher too. See it!

I totally agree with you about Kerry. However, I have been a fan of Bill Maher for years, and he has always leaned to the left. He has always supported marijuana legalization and gay marriage. What I like most about Maher is that he makes sure both sides of the issues are represented and always lets the other side speak their peace and is respectful. This is why I do not respect Moore. Don't get me wrong, I think that it is good that he makes people aware of certain issues and I actually agree with all of his views. However, he wouldn't even let that other panelist talk was extremely combative. Everyone deserves to have their voice heard, not just the people who agree with you. Adults should be able to listen to one another and have logical, well thought out responses. They should not constantly interupt each other and try to joke at the other's expense.

[euphrates]

what ever happened to badnarik...

[D_Raay]

I totally agree with you about Kerry. However, I have been a fan of Bill Maher for years, and he has always leaned to the left. He has always supported marijuana legalization and gay marriage. What I like most about Maher is that he makes sure both sides of the issues are represented and always lets the other side speak their peace and is respectful. This is why I do not respect Moore. Don't get me wrong, I think that it is good that he makes people aware of certain issues and I actually agree with all of his views. However, he wouldn't even let that other panelist talk was extremely combative. Everyone deserves to have their voice heard, not just the people who agree with you. Adults should be able to listen to one another and have logical, well thought out responses. They should not constantly interupt each other and try to joke at the other's expense.
I have to disagree with you on Moore. As he said on the show, Dreier started it by voicing his opinion why the movie was based on false information, yet when asked if he had seen the movie he said no. That angered Moore and rightfully so. If someone started critiquing something you did on what he heard, or was told, about it wouldn't you be a little annoyed? Also, with Maher he may have slightly leaned left before, but now he is over there for sure.
They really laid it on him about the 7 minutes too. I believe Moore said "If some aid came up to you right now and said the studio is being attacked, you would sit there for 7 minutes staring at Bill for fear of alarming the audience?" Man, Dreier was sweating after that one.

[ASsman]

Strategic assasinations of Dem. and Rep. leadership, cuppled with threats of ricin attacks to our "Great Nations" capitol will get their attention. This will also throw both parties into a frenzy, clearing the way for the peoples goverment.

[greedygretchen]

maybe kim campbell's strategy for Ralph Nader will spur him to drop out of the race and join up with the Demo's but crap will he then be indebted to big business? (i hate being a Gemini sometimes :p)

oh hey,michael moore and bill maher really destroyed that stupid flip-flopping argument that conservatives always use to discredit Kerry. Dreier stated that he would like Moore to become a Republican and Moore was like "but then wouldn't I be flip-flopping?" haha :)

[Manji]

Why should Nader have to drop out. It is his right to run for president and if he wants to I support it! Why is it Nader stealing Kerry's votes? Maybe Kerry is stealing Nader's votes. Maybe Kerry should drop out so we can get some real progress in this country like a third party. Sounds like too many of you are complacent in our 2 party system.

[bilbo]

Nader's has become republican tool.
His credibility has gone down the toilet.
Progressive ideals my ass. That's why the Green Party told him to take a hike, right?

[greedygretchen]

Nader's has become republican tool.
His credibility has gone down the toilet.
Progressive ideals my ass. That's why the Green Party told him to take a hike, right?

why isn't the green party dropping out of the race?

[bilbo]

I never said Ralph should drop out of the race. If people want to vote Nader, that's their business. However, they shouldn't be under the false pretense that they're advancing the Progressive cause because they'll be doing quite the opposite.

[greedygretchen]

Nader's has become republican tool.

I never said Ralph should drop out of the race. If people want to vote Nader, that's their business. However, they shouldn't be under the false pretense that they're advancing the Progressive cause because they'll be doing quite the opposite.

but is the reason you are claiming that Nader is a republican tool because he won't drop out of the race and republicans/conservatives are trying to help him? or is there some sort of accusation against Nader? maybe i am projecting something onto you that is not there but i feel that you are mildly "demonizing"(kinda harsh but for lack of a better word) Ralph Nader-i really do see your point about the vote count because if Ralph Nader were not running it might make me more likely to vote for Kerry-or I might toss my vote to the greens or libertarians because as I have stated before i feel extreme dissatisfaction with the Democratic party as well.
Michael Moore and Bill Maher both praised Nader for the work that he has done and said he was a great American. Why shouldn't I vote for someone who will stand up for Americans and put human interest in front of special interest and big business?

[EN[i]GMA]

Voting for the most Progressive canidate somehow being wrong for Progressives. Good one.

Fuck Democrats. They won't do shit to be "Progressive". I hope they lose. I hope they keep losing until those fuckwads figure out people won't stand for their "less right-wing than them" approach to getting elected.

What could anyone possibly gain by Nader dropping out? The Dems won't do shit to improve the country or reform elections. More status-quo politics from status-quo politicians.

[TheWedge]

GMA']Fuck Democrats. They won't do shit to be "Progressive". I hope they lose. I hope they keep losing until those fuckwads figure out people won't stand for their "less right-wing than them" approach to getting elected.



So then you hope Bush wins?
That is the only alternative, my friend.

[Paul Nice]

Sometimes I forget that there are people who still pretend that the warmongering imperialist with the donkey on his button will be better than the warmongering imperialist with the elephant on his button.

Sure - get all riled up and CHANGE THE WINDOW DRESSINGS! LOL And while you're at it keep pretending that the Democratic party isn't absolutely and solely responsible for incinerating hundreds of thousands of noncombatants in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdering MILLIONS MORE in Korea and Vietnam - where Kerry personally helped BURN CIVILLIANS OUT OF THEIR VILLAGES.

God forbid the Greens try to effect real change instead of the phony change the Dems propose. They are misguided in that they are Marxists, of course, but they are doing America a service by voting third party. If everyone else who wanted to - like most of YOU - had any balls at all they'd do the same.

[TheWedge]

Normally, I would agree.
However, it's not just the warmongering I'm afraid of.
Bible driven domestic policies have got to go.
I see this as an election with 3 choices:

1. Vote Bush and lose more civil liberties, further separate ourselves from the rest of the world and most likely go to war with another country. (Who will probably put up a fight and kill MANY US soldiers)

2. Vote 3rd party, and ,make a statement but concede the election to Bush. (See number 1)

3. Vote Kerry and at least temporarily slow the wheels of imperialism and possibly steer domestic agendas away from the bible.

[EN[i]GMA]

Vote Kerry! He won't take away our civil liberties by voting for the PATRIOT Act!

I don't want Bush in office or Kerry. Let them fight it out it amongst themselves. If I had to pick one or the other I'd pick Kerry but I still don't see any point in voting for either.

[TheWedge]

GMA']Vote Kerry! He won't take away our civil liberties by voting for the PATRIOT Act!

I don't want Bush in office or Kerry. Let them fight it out it amongst themselves. If I had to pick one or the other I'd pick Kerry but I still don't see any point in voting for either.

AAAHHH!!!

The point is that this country is FULL of people voting for Bush.
If people like US do not support Kerry Bush will win.
If what you are saying is that it won't matter which one wins, then I can understand that (but disagree all the same).

[Whois]

So then you hope Bush wins?
That is the only alternative, my friend.

In a sick way I hope he does win...that might just be enought to shake things loose. Piss anough people off so they might just start thinking radical thoughts like "time for another revolution?"

[EN[i]GMA]

Don't get me wrong, I hate Bush, but what will Kerry accomplish? Even if he accomplishes what he SAYS he will (like theres any chance of that happening) he STILL wouldn't be acceptable. Dems had their chance. Kucinich and Dean kicked ass but they let it slip for "electability". A face.

[Whois]

Normally, I would agree.
However, it's not just the warmongering I'm afraid of.
Bible driven domestic policies have got to go.
I see this as an election with 3 choices:

1. Vote Bush and lose more civil liberties, further separate ourselves from the rest of the world and most likely go to war with another country. (Who will probably put up a fight and kill MANY US soldiers)

2. Vote 3rd party, and ,make a statement but concede the election to Bush. (See number 1)

3. Vote Kerry and at least temporarily slow the wheels of imperialism and possibly steer domestic agendas away from the bible.

Lol

I'm laughing because Al Gore is a fundi (Southern Baptist)...he even invited Rev Fred Phelps (www.godhatesfags.com & www.godhatesamerica.com) to the 1992 and 1996 inauguration.

Wolf in sheep's clothing...

[TheWedge]

Lol

I'm laughing because Al Gore is a fundi (Southern Baptist)...he even invited Rev Fred Phelps (www.godhatesfags.com & www.godhatesamerica.com) to the 1992 and 1996 inauguration.

Wolf in sheep's clothing...

I dind't know Gore was running this year. :rolleyes:
Laugh all you want.
I'm forced to choose between what I mentioned above.
Real funny, asshole. ;)
I honestly believe Kerry and Edwards will stay true to their words on the church VS State issues, and if not, at least it will take them some time to start getting their own agendas through, and we can do this all again in 4 years.

[D_Raay]

That's what it comes down to folks. Science versus the bible. Kim Campbell said it would be very dangerous and negligent to allow another 4 years of the bible toting texan to further his christian fundamentalism. We all love Nader and the Green party but we aren't there yet people. You personally may be, but most of the country is not. Don't you see the plight? We have division in our own party. At least the conservatives are united. They have no other candidate that is more to the right than Bush to sway votes away from him. That being said, Please all you Nader voters, the goal should be to get Bush out and you know how to do that. We can still work toward our 3rd parties after this election. It doesn't all end in November. Maybe this whole experience will eventually get us there, but for now the vote HAS to be Kerry.

[Echewta]

I liked the show. It was good. Much props to those who go on the show, regardless of what side of the fense they are on.

[greedygretchen]

At least the conservatives are united. They have no other candidate that is more to the right than Bush to sway votes away from him.

did you read this?

"I’m not expecting conservatives to change their minds on certain issues that we disagree on, but if we look at the issues where we have common positions, they reach a level of gravity that would lead conservatives to stop being taken for granted by the corporate Republicans and send them a message by voting for my independent candidacy.

Here are the issues. One, conservatives are furious with the Bush regime because of the fantastic deficits as far as the eye can see. That was a betrayal of Bush’s positions, and it was a reversal of what Bush found when he came to Washington.

Conservatives are very upset about their tax dollars going to corporate welfare kings because that undermines market competition and is a wasted use of their taxes.

Conservatives are upset about the sovereignty-shredding WTO and NAFTA. I wish they had helped us more when we tried to stop them in Congress because, with a modest conservative push, we would have defeated NAFTA because it was narrowly passed. If there was no NAFTA, there wouldn’t have been a WTO.

Conservatives are also very upset with a self-styled conservative president who is encouraging the shipment of whole industries and jobs to a despotic Communist regime in China. That is what I mean by the distinction between corporate Republicans and conservative Republicans.

Next, conservatives, contrary to popular belief, believe in law and order against corporate crime, fraud, and abuse, and they are not satisfied that the Bush administration has done enough.

Conservatives are also upset about the Patriot Act, which they view as big government, privacy-invading, snooping, and excessive surveillance. They are not inaccurate in that respect.

And finally, two other things. They don’t like “Leave No Child Behind” because it is a stupidly conceived federal regulation of local school systems through misguided and very fraudulent multiple-choice testing impositions.

And conservatives are aghast that a born-again Christian president has done nothing about rampant corporate pornography and violence directed to children and separating children from their parents and undermining parental authority.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told,”You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats,” this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party."

According to Bill Maher on the show(i hope i'm saying the right numbers! :o ),Nader takes 38% of the votes from Democrats and i think it was 25% from Republicans...so Nader does also receive conservative votes

How hypocritical....the Dems were all for Ross Perot in '92 and '96, but now they're crying like a bunch of babies...Nader is a true non-corporate, leftist progressive who speaks to those who want a national health-care system, to scrap NAFTA, legalize gay marriage, a foreign policy that won't install and support dictators and oppressive regimes, while not ass-crawling and cow-towing to every demand of Israel and actually has a plan for Iraq.

and he wants to end the war on drugs to boot!

[D_Raay]

I'm right there with you brother, I would be voting for Nader. The fact is he won't get elected and I can't throw my vote away.

[robofoo76]

did anyone watch the season premiere of Real Time with Bill Maher?

Michael Moore and Bill Maher got on their knees to beg Ralph Nader to drop out of the race but I thought the most eloquent argument against Nader's candidacy came from the Canadian prime minister who essentially (this means i'm paraphrasing) told Ralph that while third party candidacy in Canada can lead to seats in the House of Commons (which led to things like single payer healthcare),in America it will lead to basically nothing-but if Ralph allies himself with the Democrats and throws his votes to the Democrats that he may then be put in a favorable position in the Dem's adminstration where he can affect change. (prime minister Kim campbell did not mention Democrats by name)

I like Ralph Nader and I don't think he is evil or hell bent on helping gw get re-elected(even though gw was never elected to begin with) as some people on the message board have complained-i just think he is standing up as a viable choice to "the lesser of the two evils". Nader also made a good point on the show that Michael Moore has a link on his website to oppose all Congress members who voted for the war and Nader pointed out that that means John Kerry. But being that mainstream America is conditioned to accept the two-party system, Ralph allying himself with the Democrats and using that alliance to initiate change seems more plausible-but then would Ralph be selling out?

also, the republican on the panel (i forgot his name) was very well-spoken but still he cannot admit on any level that President Bush was wrong to go into Iraq! I keep hearing "oh it wasn't him-it was the intelligence" and "sadaam=hitler=cruel dictator therefore war=good thing" when will they stop kidding themselves that we went into Iraq to free the Iraqi people? That they are really sending our soldiers to die over money and oil? This republican reserve to stand by President Bush right or wrong is ridiculous.

All in all it was a really good show (y)

to all Bush apologists/supporters:
"Time to eat all your words, swallow your pride, open your eyes..."
-tears for fears "sowing the seeds of love"
So you are saying kerry will win if Nader supported them ahahahahaha this is hilarious :D

[DroppinScience]

very sweet of you but i must say i only knew that because that's what she was introduced on the show as :o

But you REMEMBERED this fact. You didn't say "they had that former Canadian president, Emperor, mayor or is it commandante? Who knows what Canucks call their leaders". ;)

[BGirl]

1. Vote Bush and lose more civil liberties, further separate ourselves from the rest of the world and most likely go to war with another country. (Who will probably put up a fight and kill MANY US soldiers)

Don't forget the continued transfer of the nation's wealth to Bush's rich patrons.

"This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." - George W. Bush to supporters

[ASsman]

Damn this thread is old....