Abortion

[Vladimir]

I want to start a discussion about abortion. I realize that this is an arguable issue, while I feel gay marriage/civil union is not really an issue. It seems to me that the latter issue hurts no one and should be allowed, and it is not worth discussing, since it hurts no one and therefore there is no reason to be offended by it. However, abortion seems like an actual debate. There is no doubt that you are taking a life. It is a fact that the fetus will eventually develop into a child and a person, disregarding intervention. However, it seems to me that in our society, we make decisions about when it is 'acceptable' to take a life in cases of war, self-defense, or euthanasia. As a society we agree that taking a life in those cases is not murder. Most everyone agrees about that. So it seems to me that pro-Life characters and pro-Choice characters really are not on opposite sides of the issue; they simply have different standards for what fits the "acceptable killing" list. If people were properly educated about birth conrol, and the Catholic church would stop telling people that condoms spread AIDS, the need for abortion in cases other than the following would be few and far between; the cases are: 1) If the mother is incapable of raising the child for financial or other reasons, and it will be sick or starving.
2) The child has a terrible disease or deformity, preventing it from leading any kind of happy life.
3) Rape.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts, and I would like a healthy debate, with no name-callings or hostile/gratuitous outbursts of obscenities. I don't care about swears, don't get me wrong, just try to be civil. I would love to hear from those on both sides of the issue. Try to make a coherent argument, no "Abortion is murder, period" lines.

PS: If anyone comes at me thumping a Bible, try this one:

Numbers 35:16-18; And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

According to the Bible, as I interpret it, killing is murder. So you can't say the Bible defends war killing or euthanasia, but not abortion. Unless I am interpreting this wrong, in which case I would love a Biblical scholar to correct me.

[Tone Capone]

I'm dead set against abortion in all cases except one.

If I were married and the choice was my wife or my unborn kid can die...
I'd want my wife to live, but I would mourn the child.

[QueenAdrock]

Kill all the babies. Esp. if they're gonna turn out like gmsisko.

[Tone Capone]

Kill all the babies. Esp. if they're gonna turn out like gmsisko.
Not cool man. If you want to give the kid a chance to grow up and THEN be someone you wanna kill... whatever. But don't forget that children are innocent and life begins at conception

[CraftyLady6]

Esp. if they're gonna turn out like gmsisko.

So is this where that gene screening action like Gattaca comes in? "I'm sorry ma'am but it appears that you have what we like to call a 'gmsisko'. We recommend termination."

Kidding aside, I'm pro-life and am on the same level as Tone Capone on this: abortion only in the case to save the mother. In my mind, I cannot consider a baby 2, 3, or whatever weeks old a mass of cells, or a fetus. To me, it's life. And to terminate life is to kill and I don't believe in killing.

Thumbs up to condoms, keep 'em comin' ;)

[Ace42]

There is no doubt that you are taking a life. It is a fact that the fetus will eventually develop into a child and a person, disregarding intervention.

And sperm could develop into a child and person if it isn't prevented from doing such by a rubber barrier preventing it from fertilising an egg. A point made by the Monty Python song "Every sperm is sacred."

This is why the pope says you can't put a rubber on your willy. I think it might have something to do with Onan spilling his seed on the soil, but I am not so sure about that.

At what point would you say it is a "life" ? As soon as the two gametes combine and start dividing? Does that mean the morning after pill is also "killing" the embryo? As soon as there is brain activity? There was a time when even birth didn't qualify.

It strikes me that if you are going to say that merely having the potential to live a life through, you can't just stop at conception, nor gametes, other than for the sole reason that you need a pragmatic time for sake of arguement. Something that arbitrary doesn't really wash with me.

Unfortunately, the conclusion to this is that each time you DON'T have unprotected sex with someone is one less baby being born, meaning you are denying life to an unborn baby. Why is that any better than denying life to an unborn baby three steps down the line?

[Burnout18]

Adoption should be the only option.... except in cases of rape, and if the mothers life is at risk.

[greedygretchen]

i am 100% in favor of keeping abortion safe and legal. Before abortion was legal, many women were dying due to unsafe,illegal abortions (does the term wire hanger ring a bell?). The fact of the matter is that making abortion illegal will not erase the demand for it (same as narcotics). There will always be women and/or girls with unwanted pregnancies and who will they turn to if abortion is made illegal? It will just create a black market for abortion.
Now, i understand that some women who have abortions regret it (and some don't)-they have to face the consequences of their actions and deal with it...and since when are laws made to stop people from feeling emotional pain and/or regret? And what about all the children in poverty and foster homes? These children are already alive in this world but who is protesting for their quality of life?

[Ace42]

Not cool man. If you want to give the kid a chance to grow up and THEN be someone you wanna kill... whatever. But don't forget that children are innocent and life begins at conception

Hmmm, so what if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a baby and thus prevent the holocaust / WW2? Or do I not want the answer?

[Burnout18]

Hmmm, so what if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a baby and thus prevent the holocaust / WW2? Or do I not want the answer?

how do u know the baby wont grow up to be Ghandi or MLK?

[CraftyLady6]

Hmmm, so what if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a baby and thus prevent the holocaust / WW2? Or do I not want the answer?

I guess this is where the idealism comes in...no baby is born with their life irreversibly set. People have free will and can make choices, therefore when a kid is born, no human can say "Ah yes, little Timmy will get a DUI at 19, go to community college for a year and a half, become an alcoholic before hittin the AA meetings and getting a job, a wife and 2.5 kids." From our perspective, it's all up in the air. So while the concept of having the foresight of how people are going to turn out and being able to alter that is really rather enjoyable, it's unrealistic. I guess the rule "innocent until proven guilty" could be used to flippantly sum it up.

[Ace42]

I guess this is where the idealism comes in...no baby is born with their life irreversibly set. People have free will and can make choices, therefore when a kid is born, no human can say "Ah yes, little Timmy will get a DUI at 19, go to community college for a year and a half, become an alcoholic before hittin the AA meetings and getting a job, a wife and 2.5 kids." From our perspective, it's all up in the air. So while the concept of having the foresight of how people are going to turn out and being able to alter that is really rather enjoyable, it's unrealistic. I guess the rule "innocent until proven guilty" could be used to flippantly sum it up.

Aha, but Einstein would disagree with you. According to relativity, time is a dimension, and past, present and future are merely different ways of looking at the same thing.

To help (hopefully) explain this, consider: No-one can change the past, it is fixed and static. Remember back to your past, it seemed real, right? Just like it does now? So we can see they are not different, we merely look at them different. If you cannot change the past, you cannot change the future, as the future has to be someone's past. Just like what you did on your birthday 5 years ago is fixed and unchangeable, so is your next birthday.

It only LOOKS like it is changeable, because of from where you are looking at it (the present).

To illustrate this point, there is a story the details of which I can't quite remember, and there is no easy way to google for it unfortunately, but it runs like this:

A man is in a market place in a city (we'll call it San Francisco, although it is somewhere in the mid-east in the version I read about) and he sees Death, who becons him. The man is shocked, and runs away at full speed. He gets on the first plane (camel) he can find and flies to NY. He books himself into a hotel (inn?) and breathes a sigh of relief, congratulating himself on how close he had come to dying. Then there is a knock on the door, and Death is standing there- "Now is your time". "But, but, I saw you today, and escaped, how can it be my time?" - "It was not your time this morning, I just wanted to talk to you, as I was surprised to see you in San Francisco when I knew you were to die here and now"

This can be seen as a sort of self-fullfilling prophecy. Likewise, I could defy you to change the future now - jump up and down for no reason, wiggle your ears, whatever. When it comes down to it, that was what "was meant to be" and you didn't change the future (you can't) you merely enacted it.

While this does not mean people do not have free will, or control over their destinies, it does mean that the future is as unalterable as the past.

[Ace42]

how do u know the baby wont grow up to be Ghandi or MLK?

Urm, because it is Hitler as a baby. I didn't say "would it be ok to kill a baby so that it COULDN'T grow up to be someone like Hitler" did I? Or are you implying Ghandi and MLK were Hitler's identical siblings and you might accidentaly kill them in Austria all those years ago?

[greedygretchen]

everyone is born into a situation that we have absolutely no control over-we have no control over who we're born to and into what environment-it is simply the luck of the draw and free will has nothing to do with it...the only thing we can control are our reactions to what life throws our way...so my point is who is anyone to judge another person for doing something they think is immoral? people do what they have to do to get by and as it's been said before-"you're against abortion?great-then don't get one!"

and as i've pointed out before what about all the children that are already alive that we can't take care of? it's like "save the fetus,starve the child"

[Tone Capone]

And sperm could develop into a child and person if it isn't prevented from doing such by a rubber barrier preventing it from fertilising an egg. A point made by the Monty Python song "Every sperm is sacred."

This is why the pope says you can't put a rubber on your willy. I think it might have something to do with Onan spilling his seed on the soil, but I am not so sure about that.

At what point would you say it is a "life" ? As soon as the two gametes combine and start dividing? Does that mean the morning after pill is also "killing" the embryo? As soon as there is brain activity? There was a time when even birth didn't qualify.

It strikes me that if you are going to say that merely having the potential to live a life through, you can't just stop at conception, nor gametes, other than for the sole reason that you need a pragmatic time for sake of arguement. Something that arbitrary doesn't really wash with me.

Unfortunately, the conclusion to this is that each time you DON'T have unprotected sex with someone is one less baby being born, meaning you are denying life to an unborn baby. Why is that any better than denying life to an unborn baby three steps down the line?

in my opinion, conception is where life begins. and yes I believe the morning after pill is murder.

[Ace42]

in my opinion, conception is where life begins. and yes I believe the morning after pill is murder.

Why?

[greedygretchen]

in my opinion, conception is where life begins. and yes I believe the morning after pill is murder.

Pat Buchanan told a reporter for Spin Magazine (back when he was running for president) that exact same thing "life begins at conception" so the reporter asked him "then should welfare recipients be able to get welfare for their unborn starting at the point of conception?" (in california,-and i don't know the welfare laws elsewhere- welfare recipients cannot receive extra money for their pregnancies until they reach 6 months)and Pat Buchanan was like "uh...next question!"

as for the morning after pill being murder...i would have rather those teenage girls "murder" at the point of conception than the point of live birth (when the baby can actually feel pain) like several were reported doing-remember the chick that threw her baby in a trash can at the prom and then went back to dancing?-there were several reports of girls doing that. i wonder how many unwanted babies are thrown into trash cans-is that better than abortion or the morning-after pill?

[bilbo]

If the religious right is so concerned for these fetuses, why does the caring stop once they're born?

[Ace42]

Pat Buchanan

http://www.realchange.org/buchanan.htm

^^^ That guy? Doesn't Michael Moore have a problem with him? Citing examples of him starting fights on the House floor or something?

[greedygretchen]

If the religious right is so concerned for these fetuses, why does the caring stop once they're born?

that's a good question,bilbo, and i'm sure none of the pro-lifers on the board (or elsewhere for that matter) would take these women into their homes and help them raise their children and give them all the money and emotional support they need so that the women wouldn't have to go on welfare (another social program demonized by conservatives) and so that all the babies turn out to be good,upstanding citizens (who are then sent to die in Iraq).

As we all know death is a part of life- who lives and who dies is anyone's guess-even new-born babies die. People have died skiing and in cars-why not ban skiing and cars? And if these fetuses have souls and died then they're in a better place right? in heaven with Jesus and all the angels?

[Ace42]

And if these fetuses have souls and died then they're in a better place right? in heaven with Jesus and all the angels?

According to Catholics, unchristened / baptised babies (and thus obviously fetuses, as they haven't been christened yet) go to Limbo. Which is good, as if heaven was full of semi-developed fetuses, I'd be totally grossed out. It would be like something out of animé.

[greedygretchen]

If the religious right is so concerned for these fetuses, why does the caring stop once they're born?

that's a good question,bilbo, and i'm sure none of the pro-lifers on the board (or elsewhere for that matter) would take these women into their homes and help them raise their children and give them all the money and emotional support they need so that the women wouldn't have to go on welfare (another social program demonized by conservatives) and so that all the babies turn out to be good,upstanding citizens (who are then sent to die in Iraq).

As we all know death is a part of life- who lives and who dies is anyone's guess-even new-born babies die. People have died skiing and in cars-why not ban skiing and cars? And if these fetuses have souls and died then they're in a better place right? in heaven with Jesus and all the angels?

oh yeah and Ace42, michael moore sent checks to pat buchanan from the john wayne gacy fan club and the abortionists for buchanan group and buchanan cashed the checks-even bob dole and ross perot sent the checks back! this incident is in moore's book downsize this

[Ace42]

I sometimes hit quote instead of edit too ;)

[greedygretchen]

oh shit-i didn't even realize i did that! sorry everyone for the double post :(

[bilbo]

that's a good question,bilbo, and i'm sure none of the pro-lifers on the board (or elsewhere for that matter) would take these women into their homes and help them raise their children and give them all the money and emotional support they need so that the women wouldn't have to go on welfare (another social program demonized by conservatives) and so that all the babies turn out to be good,upstanding citizens (who are then sent to die in Iraq).

As we all know death is a part of life- who lives and who dies is anyone's guess-even new-born babies die. People have died skiing and in cars-why not ban skiing and cars? And if these fetuses have souls and died then they're in a better place right? in heaven with Jesus and all the angels?

Excellent points.
Goodnight.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Tone Capone]

Pat Buchanan told a reporter for Spin Magazine (back when he was running for president) that exact same thing "life begins at conception" so the reporter asked him "then should welfare recipients be able to get welfare for their unborn starting at the point of conception?" (in california,-and i don't know the welfare laws elsewhere- welfare recipients cannot receive extra money for their pregnancies until they reach 6 months)and Pat Buchanan was like "uh...next question!"

as for the morning after pill being murder...i would have rather those teenage girls "murder" at the point of conception than the point of live birth (when the baby can actually feel pain) like several were reported doing-remember the chick that threw her baby in a trash can at the prom and then went back to dancing?-there were several reports of girls doing that. i wonder how many unwanted babies are thrown into trash cans-is that better than abortion or the morning-after pill?

I believe life is at conception. Conception is~ the state of being conceived; beginning.~ As for welfare? I'm sick of welfare the way it is now. I'm sick of people using welfare money for everything except their children. The welfare system has been taken advantage of but, that has NOTHING to do with my stance on abortion.

[Tone Capone]

According to Catholics, unchristened / baptised babies (and thus obviously fetuses, as they haven't been christened yet) go to Limbo. Which is good, as if heaven was full of semi-developed fetuses, I'd be totally grossed out. It would be like something out of animé.

I'm sure souls don't look like fetuses.... I know you were joking....

[Tone Capone]

wow is that really over that quick?

[stillill]

If the religious right is so concerned for these fetuses, why does the caring stop once they're born?

Wow, you're quote is dead on. This may stray from the abortion topic, but does anyone else find it ironic that many pro-lifers support the death penalty?

[Burnout18]

Urm, because it is Hitler as a baby. I didn't say "would it be ok to kill a baby so that it COULDN'T grow up to be someone like Hitler" did I? Or are you implying Ghandi and MLK were Hitler's identical siblings and you might accidentaly kill them in Austria all those years ago?

Im saying you just can't look at a baby and say well its gonna do this, this and this in life..... but i guess if you had some super power and you could travel back in time,,,,, then yea i guess knock your socks off.

[TheWedge]

Charles Manson's mother would have loved to have had an abortion had it been an option.
Instead, she gave birth to Charlie and put him in foster care.
He started stealing cars at 12 I believe.
He then moved on to murder.

It's none of my business what a woman does with a group of cells growing in her uterus. If she is willing to cinsider abortion, what kind of mother will she make anyway?

Butterfly from Digable Planets said:
"Pro-Lifers need to dig themselves
because life don't stop after birth
and to a child born to the unprepared
it might even just get worse."

It bothers me how people say that THEY THINK life begins at conception, so therefore all things should be judged by that standard.
I THINK life begins once a child his delivered from it's mother's body.

But, I guess my opinion doesn't count?

[euphrates]

damn, ya know... if manson hadn't become homicidal... or rather
a master manipulator. he was a really good musician. i heard some
of his shit recently. it's not something to write home about, but
it was pretty good.

[TheWedge]

damn, ya know... if manson hadn't become homicidal... or rather
a master manipulator. he was a really good musician. i heard some
of his shit recently. it's not something to write home about, but
it was pretty good.

His inability to get signed to a record deal (some believe) was the primary reason behind the Tate/LaBianca murders.
A record producer that one of the Beach Boys introduced him to, used to live in the Tate house.

[euphrates]

His inability to get signed to a record deal (some believe) was the primary reason behind the Tate/LaBianca murders.
A record producer that one of the Beach Boys introduced him to, used to live in the Tate house.


yeh... when they had the museum of death here, i stared at the pix of her
for sooo long, just in awe. then i saw a documentary about her, and how
she moved into that house. that's just sad... she died, and it wasn't even
her beef. i think... it was brian wilson, if memory serves. his name always
seems to pop in my head, but it could just be that he's the only one i
remember.

[johnnyshredder]

what is Iraq, for example. What is the collection of tribes that was put together in the circle by Winston Churchill in 1922 when he was sitting in a hotel in Cairo, Egypt? What sovereignty do they have? The same thing with Jordan; it was a creation of the British. So many nations are the result of wars of aggression and so forth. If you look at Africa, you can see Zambia that was cut off of what used to be called Rhodesia. How did it get to be there? This is artificial.

Now the question is delivering people from oppression. We are told in the Bible to loose the yoke of oppression and to set the captives free. We are told to deliver those who are under bondage.

What about Adolf Hitler? If we had let him go on, he would have subjugated Europe and made it a charnel house. He would have been killing ruthlessly. Sooner or later someone had to stop him. Who stopped him? Well, the United States joined by Britain stopped him. The French were pretty much impotent. The Low Countries had been overrun. There was nobody else. The Allied powers, which was the U.S. and Britain, essentially, and Australia and Canada came into it, the Commonwealth nations, but we took on Japan, who went after us.

The question is not one of what the Bible says. It is just practical politics. We don't have an effective United Nations. We tried it with the League of Nations and it didn't work.

Who is left? The United States is the major power. We have to take on that responsibility. We did it in Kosovo. Noboby much complained. I am amazed that they are complaining about Iraq. They are complaining about Iraq because the Germans get money out of it, France gets money out of it, and Russia gets money out of it. The Arabs don't want one of their Arab heroes put down even though he is a butcher. In Kosovo, we went in at the defense of the Muslims against the Christians. Everybody applauded and said it was a wonderful thing. We have to stop tyranny. It is a difficult role, and it is a very expensive role, and we have to pick our targets wisely. The next one will probably be North Korea, and we'll have to be cautious about that.

[TheWedge]

johnnyshredder has sex with his mother

[euphrates]

uhhh... what does any of that have to do with the price of tea in china?

[johnnyshredder]

It is sin that produces the problem of most unwanted pregnancies, as well as all the other disorders which plague the human race. It is also sin which produces the misbelief that women have a "right" to take the lives of unborn babies. The apostle Paul writes, "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like" (Galatians 5:19-21a).

Life is sacred, and we must seek to protect all human life: the unborn, the child, the adult, and the aged. Several Bible passages tell of the sacredness of life and speak to the subject of abortion. They include Exodus 20:13, 21:22, 23:7; Job 10:8-12; Psalms 22:10, 51:5, 127:3, 139:13-16; Isaiah 44:1-2, 49:5; Jeremiah 1:4-5. From a medical point of view, in the words of a physician, "The ultimate scientific fact that all must face and deal with is that nothing, no bits and pieces, will be added to this living human being from the time of fertilization until the old man dies -- nothing except nutrition. Each of us existed in toto at that moment. All that we have done since then is to mature."

[johnnyshredder]

johnnyshredder has sex with his mother


Anyone that says retarded crap like that gets no respect from any respectable person.

[euphrates]

god's law is not my law... so, really... quoting the bible means shit to me.

(sorry)

however... since this is an abortion thread, here's my 3 cents:

personally, i couldn't do it, unless it was a situation where i wouldn't have
the kid, not couldn't WOULDN'T... rape, etc. but, globally, im totally pro-
choice. i don't judge. i have a few friends (and one recently) who've done
it, and it's not the easiest choice, but... sometimes, it's the only option.

and as someone else pointed out, people will still do it. and it's not a very
"pro-life" stand to say that a woman who has a dirty abortion deserves to
die... sure, condoms and all that safe sex shit, take procautions... but not
everyone always does. that's not my bizness... really, what it comes down
to is... M Y O B


(and that's all i have to say about that)

[TheWedge]

Anyone that says retarded crap like that gets no respect from any respectable person.

What would you know about being a respectable person gmsisko?
Creating multiple accounts on this board to back up your own stupid threads pretty much ruined any chance you MAY have had of being considered a respectable person.

[deita]

What would you know about being a respectable person gmsisko?
Creating multiple accounts on this board to back up your own stupid threads pretty much ruined any chance you MAY have had of being considered a respectable person.
OK, OK, is gmsisko also defianthitter and johnnyshredder and someone else also? I was finding similarities in their style. That would explain it. :)

[TheWedge]

That was an unfair statement. Civilians were never the target.

Well then, on 9-11 the hijackers merely targeted the BUILDINGS and not the people in them.

I heard arabslayer was raped in Iraq by a camel.

[deita]

Civilians were never the target.
It doesn't matter who the target is, the fact remains according to you and all your friends, killing is killing, murder is murder. Oh, I'm sorry, except for the death penalty. :rolleyes:

[baltogrl71]

When I was 18 I moved in with my boyfriend I was in school and had a job, a year later he got busted for dealing weed,our house that we owned the govenment siezed(even though we paid for it from our jobs)He got like 10 months work release the day he went I found out I was pregnant. My plan was never to have kids or get married before I was 30. He was so happy I was pregnant, I chose to have my daughter. I love my daughter more than life she is the most amazing person I've ever known, but a year later we split up because he was using coke he then stalked me for two years tried to kill me then kiddnaped my daughter. He has no family so it made it almost impossible to find him luckily he kept calling to tell me I'd never see my daughter again and I had my phones tapped and found him in Alabama.He has never paid child support, nor can I get it because he works under the table . Education is the most important thing to me so I chose to send my daughter to private school this cost me about 15,000 a year, and outside of that I want her to have a good life a good home I want her to see the world, it's so much. I havn't finished school I can't travel as much as I use too, and to some extent I have to comform a little bit. This is all very hard for me, but if I could go back and have an abortion my choice would still be no, but that does not give me the right to chose what other women decide. I don't think if you have an abortion in the first month it is murder there is no hartbeat or brain activity. Who are you to make that choice for anyone? Almost everyone of the girls I know have had an abortion, I've never thought twice about judging them I only offered support. I think that people need to be more educated on contraceptives, and you also have to take in to account that you can be extremly careful and still get pregnant, and like it was said before making something illegal does not stop the problem it will only make it more unsafe and with the diseases we have today we should do nothing to promote unsafe medical practices, and making abortion illegal would do just that.We all have to make our own decisions and live with them, and no one has the right to judge anyone.

[baltogrl71]

It is sin that produces the problem of most unwanted pregnancies, as well as all the other disorders which plague the human race. It is also sin which produces the misbelief that women have a "right" to take the lives of unborn babies. The apostle Paul writes, "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like" (Galatians 5:19-21a).

Life is sacred, and we must seek to protect all human life: the unborn, the child, the adult, and the aged. Several Bible passages tell of the sacredness of life and speak to the subject of abortion. They include Exodus 20:13, 21:22, 23:7; Job 10:8-12; Psalms 22:10, 51:5, 127:3, 139:13-16; Isaiah 44:1-2, 49:5; Jeremiah 1:4-5. From a medical point of view, in the words of a physician, "The ultimate scientific fact that all must face and deal with is that nothing, no bits and pieces, will be added to this living human being from the time of fertilization until the old man dies -- nothing except nutrition. Each of us existed in toto at that moment. All that we have done since then is to mature."
What gives you the right to judge like this? Are you respectful of all life, I doubt it.People like you crack me up you spew all this crap out and act all high and mighty when you probably belong to the kkk or something, you sound like the people who kill doctors who practice abortion and then justify it.

[Vladimir]

Let's try to stop calling each other motherfuckers. It is really not productive. That said, all the references to the Bible, saying that killing is murder, have no bearing on law because....You guessed it! We live in a secular country. More importantly, if you truly believe in those Bible passages, you must be a pacifist, who is against all war and/or killing. Look at the Bible passage I posted at the start of the thread. It says nothing about intent. It says, in essence, if one person kills another person with a weapon, they are a murderer, and should be put to death. Therefore, what was said about Bush was not at all unfair, assuming you buy into the Bible. In fact, if you buy into the Bible, Bush and all our soldiers deserve to die. Now you don't really believe that, do you?

Also, seriously wondering, what did Paul actually do to earn him so much respect, to the point where we care what he said? I'm serious here, not mocking anyone. He wasn't Jesus or God, he was just a guy who knew Jesus, and all the stuff he wrote was after Jesus' death and without Jesus' input. So assuming you buy into the Bible and Jesus and everything, what's so special about Paul?

[baltogrl71]

Adoption should be the only option.... except in cases of rape, and if the mothers life is at risk.
And if the mother has no health insurance are you gonna flip the bill? What if she has complications and cant work are you gonna be there to support her? Or should we just all pay for it with our taxes?

[TheWedge]

And if the mother has no health insurance are you gonna flip the bill? What if she has complications and cant work are you gonna be there to support her? Or should we just all pay for it with our taxes?

Also, Pro-Lifers act like the adoption agencies are waiting in the hopsital for newnborns.
It's not that simple.
Stop a fetus from developing or imprison a child to the foster care system?
Which is really worse?
We should outlaw abortions because ooutlawing things really work.
Like drugs and alcohol.
I hope if I ever have a daughter and she gets pregnant and decides to abort, she can talk to "Johnny" over on 8th Ave to set something up.
He's always got the bomb-ass weed so I'm sure he'll know where to get the dank abortions too. :rolleyes:

[TheWedge]

Paul was one of the greatest followers of Jesus. If you choose to believe a human it should be him. Paul will be a ruler in the last days !!!!

When Paul comes back, he's gonna kick you in the nuts for lying gmsitnspin.

[ASsman]

By whom, (you yourself doesnt count).

[baltogrl71]

Also, Pro-Lifers act like the adoption agencies are waiting in the hopsital for newnborns.
It's not that simple.
Stop a fetus from developing or imprison a child to the foster care system?
Which is really worse?
We should outlaw abortions because ooutlawing things really work.
Like drugs and alcohol.
I hope if I ever have a daughter and she gets pregnant and decides to abort, she can talk to "Johnny" over on 8th Ave to set something up.
He's always got the bomb-ass weed so I'm sure he'll know where to get the dank abortions too. :rolleyes:exactly why do you think so many people have to go outside the us to adopt.And just look at any inner city low income area and see the number of abusive child deaths I'm sure an abortion would have been a much better choice in any of those situations.I know it sounds crazy but I think a better option would be for people to get license to have a child or at least have to take parenting classes.

[baltogrl71]

Who are you to say anyone you don't know is a member of the KKK ???
I did not say he/she was i said probably and or something and the reason why is because most of the people in those groups spew out this crazy crap, and the others who spew this shit are usually some kind of bigot.

[deita]

Are you saying that if someone takes a life that they should be allowed to

live ???
I guess that would be the question, wouldn't it? Is it only OK to take a life when you and your religious fringe say it is OK, when you give your seal of approval? I didn't realize that we had killing approved of and killing not approved of. I bet the people losing family members in Iraq and Afghanistan due to collateral damage would argue that point with you. Is the loss of their loved one less important than yours? They certainly are not terrorists. They just happen to live in a country we invaded.
Oh, I get it, aren't we all just so special we can do what we want to whoever we want and justify it with some bible verse :rolleyes:

[baltogrl71]

I an truely sorry all that happened to you, and I will pray for you.

As far as making abortion illegal, that will not happen in todays society.

But it is still wrong. The baby is alive, the baby has it's own dna from day 1.
no offense but I don't need your prayers, these were just some of my experiences in my life, and it would be easy for me to say if I would have had an abortion my life would have been better, but I didn't, it would also be easy for people to think I was pro-life my point was that after everything I still belive it is an individual choice. And I belive in the first month or two it is not wrong also how can the morning after pill be bad because you don't know the morning after for one so you may not be doing anything and nothing has developed it is a preventative measure I guess the people who say this is wrong don't get science. And also if anyone has not realized the world is over populated people need to stop having tons of kids.

[greedygretchen]

tone capone, no one "gave up" we just had to get some sleep

this "debate" is going nowhere...none of the pro-lifers have addressed questions posed by me and bilbo in the beginning of the thread which were:

1a) why does the caring stop once the child is born? (og ? by bilbo,paraphrased by me)
1b) why do pro-lifers ignore the millions of children already alive who are living in horrendous conditions? Where are the protesters for their quality of life?
1c)Will any of the prolifers on the board go to a clinic, take in one of these women(or several of them) and support them and their child for the rest of their lives?

2) is abortion or morning-after pill better than throwing a new born baby(when the baby already feels pain/hunger) in the dumpster-which women and girls have done due to unwanted babies/pregnancies?

3) will banning abortion lessen the demand for abortions or will it make women/girls resort to back-alley/wire-hanger black market abortions where both the mother and the unborn fetus die in usually squalid conditions?

and this new question is specially for you Tone Capone:

4)Regardless on how you feel about welfare (welfare is here whether you like it or not), considering the welfare laws in place today, if a fetus is considered by you to be a full-fledged human being at the point of conception then should a mother be able to get extra welfare for that fetus at the point of conception? if welfare mothers were lobbying for this law would you support it (obviously this is hypothetical-like welfare mothers have a lobby!)?

These are questions that pro-lifers never consider or address. To me pro-lifers sound like parrots: "life begins at conception,life begins at conception, bible says so, bible says so-squuaaawk!"

i think gmsisko's other identity may have been freedomofspeech-but really i'm just guessing

[Ace42]

what is Iraq, for example. What is the collection of tribes that was put together in the circle by Winston Churchill in 1922 when he was sitting in a hotel in Cairo, Egypt?

http://www.cbn.com/700club/askpat/BIO_032803.asp

[Ace42]

Paul was one of the greatest followers of Jesus. If you choose to believe a human it should be him. Paul will be a ruler in the last days !!!!

This is the same Paul that never actually followed Jesus, due to not actually meeting or talking to him, and who was killing Christians until he "found god" (where have we heard that phrase before, Mr. Charlie Manson?) on the road to Damascus...

Are you saying that if someone takes a life that they should be allowed to
live ???

By your argument, the executioner should then be killed. Fool.

It has already been established that enough gas was found in Iraq to kill half
a million people.

If you actually read what was written here, you'd know that is pure and utter fiction. It is total BULLSHIT. Every single time you repeat that *LIE* you make yourself look like more of a fool.


That Iraqi government killed several hundred thousand of it's
own people.

Again, as I said, numerous sources in the US military think the shell that gassed the Kurds came from IRAN. Iran is NOT Iraq, infact they were at war with each other.

Also, as I have said several times in this forum, the "mass graves" found in Iraq, of which the US government said there were 300,000 also include graves of casualties from the Iraq-Iran war, from US bombing before the first gulf war, as well as civilians killed by rebel insurgents fighting AGAINST Saddam.

And Kurds are *NOT* Saddam's own people. The vast majority of Arabs HATE the kurds. This includes the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, Iranians, the Turks. All of them. The country that the US 'liberated' (Kuwait) had a proportionally WORSE human rights record that Iraq.

[greedygretchen]

right on Ace42- I was about to point out that Paul was the biggest sinner of them all-but then he was blinded by the light (wrapped up like a douche? j/k silly i know :p )

[Whois]

You speak of things you know nothing about. And you have no proof.

We have all the proof we need to know you are a fucktard.

"Howdy fucktard!"
:D

[discodistortion]

Not everyone who is pro-life is a Christian conservative. And not everyone who is pro-life is in support of the war in Iraq. All of that has nothing to do with whether abortion is moral or not. By throwing all of that nonsense around, you change the argument from being about abortion to being about the soundness of one's logic and beliefs.

I believe the first post said something about abortion being appropriate when the baby might be deformed or disabled. I think that is a disgusting reason to have an abortion. Who ae we to say that someone disabled in one way or another can't have a fulfilling and rich life? Everything is relative; blind people don't know what they're missing. Are you going to say that their life is less full than yours because they can't see? A blind person has an entirely different appreciation for sound and touch, one that someone with sight could never comprehend. Parents should be allowed to get rid of their children because of deformities? How about, parents should be allowed to get rid of their kids because they're ugly. Where do you draw the line? But I don't think you can stamp a quality onto someone else's life that is not your own. People who have sympathy are bigots. "Oh look at that poor man, he has no legs." He's different. That doesn't mean he's unhappy. And as for parents who would abort their child because they couldn't handle the responsiblity of taking care of a baby that needed that much more care - You were the one who decided to become parents. It's the luck of the draw, and you should be ready to accept the consequences that come.

That said, I'm still pro-life. I think the problem is that too many people think of sex as something fun to do when they're horny. People need to be more careful. I know that if my girlfriend got pregnant, we wouldn't be able to handle it. I'm sure there are other couples and especially other women who feel the same way. Being pregnant for nine months is hard.

[Whois]

I an truely sorry all that happened to you, and I will pray for you.




Which is the Fundi way of saying "BURN IN HELL HERETIC!" :rolleyes:

[TheWedge]

WTF?? Sympathy = bigotry??
And people with no legs are happy about it?
While I agree that people with no legs can live a fulfilled life, there is no doubt that that life is going to be harder and there are going to be things that a no legged person will ultamitley miss out on.
I'm not saying this gives anyone a right to have an abortion.
I think that right is given by who/whatever put a womb in a womans boby.
You talk about shifting the conversation away from the topic, yet you fail to answer any of the questions posed by the Pro-choicers.

Sex is fun and I do it to relieve stress and enjoy myself.
I never want to have children. I made this decision a long time ago.
When I'm a little older, I may get "fixed" but I don't want to make up my mind permanently just yet.
So, I shouldn't have sex ever?
Yeah, that's going to happen.

[greedygretchen]

Not everyone who is pro-life is a Christian conservative. And not everyone who is pro-life is in support of the war in Iraq. All of that has nothing to do with whether abortion is moral or not. By throwing all of that nonsense around, you change the argument from being about abortion to being about the soundness of one's logic and beliefs.

I believe the first post said something about abortion being appropriate when the baby might be deformed or disabled. I think that is a disgusting reason to have an abortion. Who ae we to say that someone disabled in one way or another can't have a fulfilling and rich life? Everything is relative; blind people don't know what they're missing. Are you going to say that their life is less full than yours because they can't see? A blind person has an entirely different appreciation for sound and touch, one that someone with sight could never comprehend. Parents should be allowed to get rid of their children because of deformities? How about, parents should be allowed to get rid of their kids because they're ugly. Where do you draw the line? But I don't think you can stamp a quality onto someone else's life that is not your own. People who have sympathy are bigots. "Oh look at that poor man, he has no legs." He's different. That doesn't mean he's unhappy. And as for parents who would abort their child because they couldn't handle the responsiblity of taking care of a baby that needed that much more care - You were the one who decided to become parents. It's the luck of the draw, and you should be ready to accept the consequences that come.

That said, I'm still pro-life. I think the problem is that too many people think of sex as something fun to do when they're horny. People need to be more careful. I know that if my girlfriend got pregnant, we wouldn't be able to handle it. I'm sure there are other couples and especially other women who feel the same way. Being pregnant for nine months is hard.

you still didn't answer any of the questions i posed...also maybe not all pro-lifers are christian conservatives but i bet the majority of them are...and again you're opposed to abortion fine then don't have one,but don't try to block other people from dealing with the consequences of their actions...

people think of sex as something fun to do when their horny? that argument should actually cement the case for abortion

[discodistortion]

theWedge, I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy sex. I'm just saying that too many people don't really think about what it is before they start engaging in it. They'll think of it as an accomplishment, to have have sex with however many people and however many times. Or they'll think of it as something social. Personally, I think it means a lot more than that.

Anyway, what I meant before was that people with disabilities don't need the social bias they get stapled with. Most people don't know any better, or can't help it, but they think of people with disabilities as their own little category of people, like the way they think of blacks or whites. I really doubt most disabled people want to be thought of that way. If you had a disgustingly large left foot, would you want that to be a part of your identity?

OK, theWedge, here's my argument againt the pro-lifers. I don't think it should be up to our law makers to come up with a universal standard for what Life is. What is life, really? Does a fresh embryo even know it's alive? Is it capable of independant thought? Is it capable of thought at all? Maybe, for a lot of you, this isn't the point. But to me, life is only as tangible as the individual who experiences it. My only experience with life and what it means to be alive is my own existence. If I wasn't able to comprehend my own existence, would I even be able to appreciate it? If so, would I be missing out if it was taken away from me?

[greedygretchen]

You talk about shifting the conversation away from the topic, yet you fail to answer any of the questions posed by the Pro-choicers.

once again you beat me to the punch,Wedge :rolleyes:
and thank you for doing it (ahem,pointing out flawed logic,i mean)

[discodistortion]

shit, gmsisko1, if only Hitler could see what a shithole Germany has become.

[discodistortion]

once again you beat me to the punch,Wedge :rolleyes:
and thank you for doing it (ahem,pointing out flawed logic,i mean)
note my response

[baltogrl71]

The Caring doesn't stop.

I don't let the right hand know what the left hand does, but I was a team

that went to Brazil to build a clean water well for people with no clean water.

Throwing a baby in a dumpster is also murder (if the baby dies)

Weather I like it or not abortion is here to stay.i am confused to your point here and BRAZIL oh my fucking g-d they kill their kids who are homless at night to stop panhandeling for tourism nice choice in countries to support dumb ass

[Ace42]

If you like Pat or not any respectable person has to respect him.

From a biological standpoint, there is absolutely no basis for believing that human life begins at any time other than conception.

That's wrong for a start.

life Audio pronunciation of "life" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lf)
n. pl. lives (lvz)

1.
1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Spermatazoa are clearly not inanimate or 'dead' and whilst they cannot reproduce of themselves, they do have metabolic functions, they do grow, they do respond to the environment. Clearly there are aspects of life in sperm, BEFORE conception.

1. The interval of time between birth and death
2. The interval of time between one's birth and the present: has had hay fever all his life.
3. A particular segment of one's life: my adolescent life.
4. The period from an occurrence until death: elected for life; paralyzed for life.

All of those state it starts at birth, not conception.

7. A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death.

Not what Pat would call a "biological standpoint" - although clearly the one he is trying to represent.

So, really, when it comes to Pat's "Biological Standpoint" - "No basis" actually means "enough basis to make the point debatable"

I'd say that any "respectable person" could only conclude that Pat is prone to over-stating his case. That is not something that would make him particularly deserving of respect.

[baltogrl71]

That's wrong for a start.

life Audio pronunciation of "life" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lf)
n. pl. lives (lvz)

1.
1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Spermatazoa are clearly not inanimate or 'dead' and whilst they cannot reproduce of themselves, they do have metabolic functions, they do grow, they do respond to the environment. Clearly there are aspects of life in sperm, BEFORE conception.

1. The interval of time between birth and death
2. The interval of time between one's birth and the present: has had hay fever all his life.
3. A particular segment of one's life: my adolescent life.
4. The period from an occurrence until death: elected for life; paralyzed for life.

All of those state it starts at birth, not conception.

7. A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death.

Not what Pat would call a "biological standpoint" - although clearly the one he is trying to represent.

So, really, when it comes to Pat's "Biological Standpoint" - "No basis" actually means "enough basis to make the point debatable"

I'd say that any "respectable person" could only conclude that Pat is prone to over-stating his case. That is not something that would make him particularly deserving of respect.
exactly

[greedygretchen]

discodistortion, I did note your response and now i am really confused :confused:

I'm still pro-life.

okay,but then...

here's my argument againt the pro-lifers. I don't think it should be up to our law makers to come up with a universal standard for what Life is. What is life, really? Does a fresh embryo even know it's alive? Is it capable of independant thought? Is it capable of thought at all? Maybe, for a lot of you, this isn't the point. But to me, life is only as tangible as the individual who experiences it. My only experience with life and what it means to be alive is my own existence. If I wasn't able to comprehend my own existence, would I even be able to appreciate it? If so, would I be missing out if it was taken away from me?

maybe you think abortion is wrong for you/your girlfriend but think it should remain safe and legal for those who might need that option?
btw, i hate to play tit for tat (who am i kidding-i love it!!)but discodistortion you didn't answer any of the questions i posed (and neither did gmsisko for that matter- "the Caring doesn't stop" oh, okay,now you've really convinced me with that eloquent thought-out retort)

[discodistortion]

shit i meant to say i was pro choice. MY BAD. i'm terribly sorry for my fuck up. that's annoying, seriously, didn't mean to type that.

*as for the caring doesn't stop:

Well, isn't that assuming that everyone pro-life is in favor of the death penalty? I don't think it really has much to do with the argument.

[greedygretchen]

it's all good--because i thought you're more philosophical take on abortion was right on (y) so yeah i was a bit confused

re: your edit on the caring doesn't stop

huh? :confused: shit you did it to me again!! can i get some clarification on that? what assumes all pro-lifers support the death penalty?

[discodistortion]

What I mean is...

It seems that a popular argument for pro-choicers is to say "Well, if you're so pro-life, why do you support the death penalty? Why are there so many starving babies out there? Why should a fetus matter more than they do?" as if to assume that every pro-lifer favors the death penalty and would rather have little Indian babies manufacturing sneakers for them. What I'm saying is, that's another argument for another time. There are pro-lifers out there dedicated to feeding the hungry and giving to the needy, as WELL as preventing unborn babies from being aborted.

Maybe I ought to make it clear that although i'm pro-choice, I still disagree with a lot of pro-choice arguments. In general, I'm pro-people.

edit: you know what, I'm a fucking idiot and that has nothing to do with what you were talking about. I think I was just reading it wrong or something, for some weird reason I interpreted "the caring doesn't stop" to mean that with certain people, as soon as the baby is born, they're not concerned with it anymore. shit, i've probably fucked up the whole thread by now.

[Vladimir]

Sorry to change the subject a little, but I'm not sure an answer was actually given to my question. What did Paul actually do to earn anyone's respect, besides being "a great follower of Jesus"?

Can someone draw me the line between clean water in Brazil and helping abandoned children in the USA? It's kind of blurry and I can't quite make it out. I mean, big (y) for the Brazil thing, in all seriousness, but what does it have to do with the discussion?

[Whois]

gmsisko1 - The number two reason why people should use birth control.

:D

[CrankItUp!]

(!) PRO CHOICE ! = That's what it equals to me ! - ( her body , her choice - totally.) (!)

[discodistortion]

Sorry to change the subject a little, but I'm not sure an answer was actually given to my question. What did Paul actually do to earn anyone's respect, besides being "a great follower of Jesus"?
he traveled all over the place spreading the gospel. you might say he was the first missionary?

[Ace42]

he traveled all over the place spreading the gospel. you might say he was the first missionary?

He travelled all over the place killing Christians before he converted. You might say he was the first missionary that wasn't scared of "Paul the mighty" persecuting them and their followers.

[ASsman]

Hahaha, its funny because its more than likely true.... Actually I think mass sterilization of trailer parks would have stopped his birth.

[euphrates]

When to Stone Your Children
Dt 21:18-21:21
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of
his father...or his mother...even when they punish him ...his father and
mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his
town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and
rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." All the men of
the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from
among you.'

How Long to Hang Somebody
Dt 21:22-21:23
'If a man who commits a sin worthy of death is put to death, and you hang
him from a tree...his body must not remain on the tree overnight. You must
bury him on the same day, for a hanged man is accursed of God.'


Proof of Virginity
Dt 22:13-22:20
'If a man marries a woman and has sex with her...and then turns on her and
publicly accuses her, saying, "I married this woman, and when I had sex with
her, I found no evidence of virginity," ...the girl's father and mother must
take the evidence of her viginity and show it to the elders of the town,
saying, "Here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity." The elders will then
have the man arrested and flogged, and fine him 100 silver pieces, giving this
money to the girl's father. The woman will remain the man's wife as long as
he lives, and he may not divorce her. But if the accusation is true and no
evidence of the woman's virginity is shown, the woman must be taken to the
door of her fathers house and stoned to death by the men of the town.'


Slavery
Ex 21:2-Dt 15:17
'When you purchase a Hebrew slave...his service will last for six years. In the
seventh year he will leave a free man. If his master gives him a wife and she
bears him sons or daughters, the wife and children will belong to the master,
and he will depart alone. But if the slave says to you, "I do not want to leave
you," because he loves you and your family, and is well off with you...then
you must take an awl and drive it through the slave's ear and into the door.
He will be your servant forever.'

Ex 21:7-21:8
'If a man sells his daughter as a slave...she will not leave as male slaves do.
If she does not please her master who intended her for himself...he must let
her be bought back.'

Ex 21:20-21:21
'If someone beats his slave...and the slave dies at his hands...he shall
certainly be avenged. But should the slave survive for one day or two...
he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner's property.'



there's your "law" (http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/)

(i'll look up the part about dashing the babies of your enemy on rocks
later... if i get the urge. tho, these are pretty good ones, follow the link,
read some more. it's an awesome site, really puts the bible into prospective)

[baltogrl71]

Many countries do this, but Brazil has starving people, and someone acused me of not caring, so I had to speak up. It's not the country it's the people.yeah but I thought we were talking about america hereso you care about water in other countries but not the babies here what do you do for them?

[baltogrl71]

When to Stone Your Children
Dt 21:18-21:21
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of
his father...or his mother...even when they punish him ...his father and
mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his
town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and
rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." All the men of
the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from
among you.'

How Long to Hang Somebody
Dt 21:22-21:23
'If a man who commits a sin worthy of death is put to death, and you hang
him from a tree...his body must not remain on the tree overnight. You must
bury him on the same day, for a hanged man is accursed of God.'


Proof of Virginity
Dt 22:13-22:20
'If a man marries a woman and has sex with her...and then turns on her and
publicly accuses her, saying, "I married this woman, and when I had sex with
her, I found no evidence of virginity," ...the girl's father and mother must
take the evidence of her viginity and show it to the elders of the town,
saying, "Here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity." The elders will then
have the man arrested and flogged, and fine him 100 silver pieces, giving this
money to the girl's father. The woman will remain the man's wife as long as
he lives, and he may not divorce her. But if the accusation is true and no
evidence of the woman's virginity is shown, the woman must be taken to the
door of her fathers house and stoned to death by the men of the town.'


Slavery
Ex 21:2-Dt 15:17
'When you purchase a Hebrew slave...his service will last for six years. In the
seventh year he will leave a free man. If his master gives him a wife and she
bears him sons or daughters, the wife and children will belong to the master,
and he will depart alone. But if the slave says to you, "I do not want to leave
you," because he loves you and your family, and is well off with you...then
you must take an awl and drive it through the slave's ear and into the door.
He will be your servant forever.'

Ex 21:7-21:8
'If a man sells his daughter as a slave...she will not leave as male slaves do.
If she does not please her master who intended her for himself...he must let
her be bought back.'

Ex 21:20-21:21
'If someone beats his slave...and the slave dies at his hands...he shall
certainly be avenged. But should the slave survive for one day or two...
he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner's property.'



there's your "law" (http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/)

(i'll look up the part about dashing the babies of your enemy on rocks
later... if i get the urge. tho, these are pretty good ones, follow the link,
read some more. it's an awesome site, really puts the bible into prospective)
yeah gismo follow the rules!

[discodistortion]

this isn't about the validity of the bible, it's about the validity abortion.

[Mac D]

pro life

[greedygretchen]

this isn't about the validity of the bible, it's about the validity abortion.

the problem is that for many (not all but many) pro-lifers it is about the bible and the commandment of thou shalt not kill...hence no answer from any pro-lifers regarding the questions i have posed (see like page 3 i think)

[euphrates]

which was my point... if we're going to use the bible to make
a case against it, why not examine other parts of it. and while
what i drew from was the old testament, it makes no sence to
accept some of the book, but not all.

plus, remember that jesus spoke against calling people fools, but
used the word against non-believers at any chance he could muster.



the whole thing is one big contradiction, which is why half of it is
completely denouced by the faithful, however... as i see it, you
either accept all of god's "law" or you don't. it makes no sense to
ignore anything that builds a case against it's inconsistencies.

[travesty]

Kidding aside, I'm pro-life and am on the same level as Tone Capone on this: abortion only in the case to save the mother. In my mind, I cannot consider a baby 2, 3, or whatever weeks old a mass of cells, or a fetus. To me, it's life. And to terminate life is to kill and I don't believe in killing.


SO I guess there are no bug sprays or antibiotics at your house?

[100% ILL]

which was my point... if we're going to use the bible to make
a case against it, why not examine other parts of it. and while
what i drew from was the old testament, it makes no sence to
accept some of the book, but not all.

plus, remember that jesus spoke against calling people fools, but
used the word against non-believers at any chance he could muster.



the whole thing is one big contradiction, which is why half of it is
completely denouced by the faithful, however... as i see it, you
either accept all of god's "law" or you don't. it makes no sense to
ignore anything that builds a case against it's inconsistencies.
The Old Testament Law was given to Moses on Mount Sainai. Under the Law,which applied to the Israelites at that time Deuteronomy points at behavior which had to be followed. The fact that they had slaves back then was just a fact and God dealt with that issue just as he dealt with diviorce. When Jesus came he changed all of that. The Hebrews were to no longer follow the Law but were under Grace. Of course the Jews rejected Jesus as the true Messiah so he used the apostle Paul who was originally Saul the persecutor to reach out to the Gentiles(non Jews)
Acts chapter 9

[Vladimir]

So you are saying that Christians don't hold the Old Testament as a holy text? Maybe I live on a different planet from you, but the Christians I know would disagree with you. Where does it say that Jesus told people to reject the Old Testament? He was Jewish! Why would he say that?

[euphrates]

hahahahahah... "slaves were something that god just delt with" that's
the best apologetic defense i have EVER heard for the old testament...
now, do that for stoning your kids and non-virgin wife. i need another
giggle. oooohhh, man. hahhahahahahahah... well, i'll admit one thing,
xtians are funny people. they just interperate things however they see
fit to make god not look like the evil vengeful controlling man he actually
was. religion was the first law. (at least you admit that) ...

[100% ILL]

So you are saying that Christians don't hold the Old Testament as a holy text? Maybe I live on a different planet from you, but the Christians I know would disagree with you. Where does it say that Jesus told people to reject the Old Testament? He was Jewish! Why would he say that?

I did not say the Old Testament wasn't a Holy text.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwrting of ordinances that was against us,which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us

[GregBrady]

ABORTION….AN HONEST ANSWER! :o

I’m not sure if I believe in God, I do know killing’s wrong MOST OF THE TIME! An example of when it's ok to take a human life….

My wife is injured in an accident and has to spend the rest of her life in AGONY. She decides that she can’t live like this and ask me to pull the plug…..I’D DO IT IN A HEART BEAT! I would do it because I love her and don’t want to see her in pain.
Is that wrong?

IF you believe in the bible, then you may believe we are ALL God’s creatures.

Is one creature more important or better then another? Of course you’re going to say humans are better, because we are smarter and have the power of choice. Does that make us more important? Does that make us the greater life? You have to say yes, because you’re human, and saying no means taking responsibility for killing life!
Who wants to take on that type of responsibility?

Knowing that there are no easy answers and no definite right answers to killing, I know I have to make the best possible choices that are right for me. With that said, I have to give ALL people the right to chose what to do with life!

Until I stop killing life ALL TOGETHER then I don’t feel I have the right to tell ANYONE, they can’t make those same decisions.

In other words…
If you kill on ANY level, SHUT THE FUCK UP about abortion!
If not, then you have the right to preach the promotion of life!

Just my opinion!

Greg

[100% ILL]

hahahahahah... "slaves were something that god just delt with" that's
the best apologetic defense i have EVER heard for the old testament...
now, do that for stoning your kids and non-virgin wife. i need another
giggle. oooohhh, man. hahhahahahahahah... well, i'll admit one thing,
xtians are funny people. they just interperate things however they see
fit to make god not look like the evil vengeful controlling man he actually
was. religion was the first law. (at least you admit that) ...


In the Old Testament the believers could not personally talk to God. God spoke to them through Prophets. THe people who believed had to offer up burnt animal sacrafices as an atonement for their sins. Jesus was the Ultimate sacrafice

Matthew 26: 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission of sins

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christs then are ye Abraham'sb seed and heirs according to the promise(Genesis 17:1-8)

[cookiepuss]

Did anyone notice that this thread was started by a 14 yr old boy? While he has some intelligent points to make, he has no concept of what it's like to be a woman and to have to make this kind of decision about bringing life into this world.

I think we can all agree that abortion should not be used as birth control, but as to just what circumstances make it acceptible should not be left up to the masses. it is an entirely personal decision that needs to be left to the woman (or couple) who will have to bear this child. Parenthood isn't just for a span of 18 yrs. it is a life time commitment not to be taken lightly and it is something that is not appropriate for everyone. We must be allowed a choice.

If you really don't think so, are you willing to spend your hard earned cash on these unwanted babies? Will you take them into your home for a life time? Because if you can't see yourself doing so, you really have a lot of nerve to tell others how to live thier lives.

please keep abortion legal. it's my body and my choice.

[Vladimir]

I'm not sure what my age has to do with it. I, along with about half of the people in the debate, have no concept about what its like to be a woman because I and the rest of that half are male. My age has nothing to do with it.

More importantly, I agree with you, so you really shouldn't be attacking me out of nowhere.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but your comment seemed rather irrelevant.

[greedygretchen]

Did anyone notice that this thread was started by a 14 yr old boy? While he has some intelligent points to make, he has no concept of what it's like to be a woman and to have to make this kind of decision about bringing life into this world.

I'm not sure what my age has to do with it. I, along with about half of the people in the debate, have no concept about what its like to be a woman because I and the rest of that half are male. My age has nothing to do with it.

i agree with you,Vladimir. Sorry cookiepuss but I am a 28 year old woman and I will never know what it's like to make a decision like that either because I am physically unable to get pregnant...but it doesn't mean i can't have an opinion on the matter

[cookiepuss]

I'm not sure what my age has to do with it. I, along with about half of the people in the debate, have no concept about what its like to be a woman because I and the rest of that half are male. My age has nothing to do with it.

More importantly, I agree with you, so you really shouldn't be attacking me out of nowhere.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but your comment seemed rather irrelevant.
I'm sorry you felt I was attacking you. Please understand I am not putting you down because of your age or gender. As I said you have made some intelligent remarks.

I'm justing saying you're still young and as you gain more experience with life and with girlfriends you might change you mind about things or perhaps just view things from a different stand point.

My point is: I fell like it is very easy for people to take a stand on what they believe is right or wrong when they have had no experience with the situation. but when the situation hits you head on there is alot of gray area.This statement is not directed towards you, but in general I resent being told by my government or society what is right for my life. And it maybe sexist but I don't appriciate men telling me about weahter they think a woman should have the right to an abortion. I just don't. that makes me just as flawed as everyone else but that's the way it is.

[Vladimir]

no offense taken.

[cookiepuss]

"Sorry cookiepuss but I am a 28 year old woman and I will never know what it's like to make a decision like that either because I am physically unable to get pregnant...but it doesn't mean i can't have an opinion on the matter"


I never said don't have an opinion.
I have lots of opinions on things I know nothing about...However I do not choose to debate those issue because I am not well enough informed to do so. So having an opinion is not the issue. The attitude about this subject is everyone seems to think this is a public issue. It seems that people think we should be able to make these decisions for everyone in society and I don't beleive it should be that way. it's a private and personal decision. that's my bottom line. That's all I have to say.

[greedygretchen]

I never said don't have an opinion.


no you didn't but to me it seemed implied...but you clarified yourself and when all is said and done we agree on the issue at hand that abortion is a personal issue to be made by the individual and not by the government

[TheWedge]

Sorry, I'm not in a position to do this, but I do give money to support this.



Example please?
I want to know where you give money to support taking care or abondoned children.

[euphrates]

In the Old Testament the believers could not personally talk to God. God spoke to them through Prophets. THe people who believed had to offer up burnt animal sacrafices as an atonement for their sins. Jesus was the Ultimate sacrafice

Matthew 26: 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission of sins

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christs then are ye Abraham'sb seed and heirs according to the promise(Genesis 17:1-8)




either way... man decided that the old law was crap, and instated a new one.
after all, god is like man... in all ways. man created him.

[Burnout18]

I think they should let all the women decide...... just the women. They should have a national election where just the women vote on if abortion should be illegal or not.

[GregBrady]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!

[greedygretchen]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!

c'mon dude (n)

[discodistortion]

which was my point... if we're going to use the bible to make
a case against it, why not examine other parts of it. and while
what i drew from was the old testament, it makes no sence to
accept some of the book, but not all.

plus, remember that jesus spoke against calling people fools, but
used the word against non-believers at any chance he could muster.



the whole thing is one big contradiction, which is why half of it is
completely denouced by the faithful, however... as i see it, you
either accept all of god's "law" or you don't. it makes no sense to
ignore anything that builds a case against it's inconsistencies.

Isn't that sort of like saying that because our country has laws that don't make sense, we should ignore all of them? I'm not religious myself, and I understand that saying "Well, the Bible says so!" doesn't really do much to convince, or give the impression that one knows what he's talking about for that matter. However, there are people who happen to find a lot of truth in the Bible. Whether we like it or not, it was a text written and translated by man, and as such, it's inherently flawed. But if someone is against abortion, and the Bible reinforces that, then I don't think it's unjustified to use certain excerpts of the Bible as evidence.

Also, Christians consider the Old Testament an important and holy text. This doesn't change the fact that Jesus disagreed with a lot of what it said. He was never trying to start a new religion; he was simply trying to reform Judaism. There's a reason Jews keep kosher and Christians don't. Anyway, that sort of makes it easier for Christians to use parts of the Old Testament that make sense to them, while disregarding the parts that don't.

My point is that it would be more productive to counter the points made in the Bible which reinforce why abortion a bad thing, rather than counter the entire Bible.

[discodistortion]

after all, god is like man... in all ways. man created him.
It's really unfair to say something like that. Where's your proof that God doesn't exist? The Evolution theory is still a theory, however much evidence there is to support it. I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is about abortion. The thread has veered off into a debate over the soundness of the Bible.

[Vladimir]

I agree we should get back on topic, but before we go - there is no proof that God doesn't exist and there is no proof that God does. In my opinion, in the absence of evidence on either side, I go with the side of more reason. It seems like a ridiculous idea that God loves us but never helps us, so in the absence of evidence I'll go with the "No God" theory. Now lets get back on track.

[100% ILL]

Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths.

[TheWedge]

Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he sahll direct thy paths.

ME: God, How come when we were on the beach the other day, there was only one set of footprints?

GOD: That's probably when I was helping one of the other 10 billion people in the world you selfish cunt!!

[100% ILL]

ME: God, How come when we were on the beach the other day, there was only one set of footprints?

GOD: That's probably when I was helping one of the other 10 billion people in the world you selfish cunt!!

Proverbs 15:4

A wholesome tounge is a tree of life: but perversness therin is a breach in the spirit

[TheWedge]

Proverbs 15:4

A wholesome tounge is a tree of life: but perversness therin is a breach in the spirit



1. Virginity like bubble, one prick, all gone.
2. Man who run in front of car get tired.
3. Man who run behind car get exhausted.
4. Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.
5. Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.
6. Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.
7. Man with one chopstick go hungry.
8. Man who scratch ass should not bite fingernails.
9. Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.
10. Baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.
11. Panties not best thing on earth! But next to best thing on earth.
12. War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.
13. Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.
14. Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.
15. It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.
16. Man who drive like hell, bound to get there.
17. Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.
18. Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.
19. Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs.
20. Man who fart in church sit in own pew.
21. Crowded elevator smell different to midget.
22. For man who scratch ass, food taste crappy all day.

[100% ILL]

O.K. so you don't like me

[TheWedge]

O.K. so you don't like me

I have no problem with you dude.
I just think it's odd that you post bible verses.
To some people they are meaningless.

It seems to me like you are defending the validity of God and the bible, by quoting the bible, which makes no sense.
You might as well try and support Howard Stern by citing howardstern.com.

In all honesty though, I was just making myself laugh by countering your bible verse with silliness.

I didn't mean to sound hateful toward you.

[Whois]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!

You forgot your /sarcasm tag...

[100% ILL]

:) Meaningless to some I cannot deny. However politics is not the answer, If it was someone would have gotten it right by now. The Bible teaches that sin will ultimately destroy the earth, and that all nations that forget God will be desroyed. Revelations talks about how The Anti-Christ will be a master politician and will unify the whole world under his policies, to include one religion. It is the political minded I am sure that will fall right in with him. I think it's unfortunate but inevitable. I do not concern myself with politics. I feel that God is in control and The world will fall apart of it's own accord.

[TheWedge]

:) Meaningless to some I cannot deny. However politics is not the answer, If it was someone would have gotten it right by now. The Bible teaches that sin will ultimately destroy the earth, and that all nations that forget God will be desroyed. Revelations talks about how The Anti-Christ will be a master politician and will unify the whole world under his policies, to include one religion. It is the political minded I am sure that will fall right in with him. I think it's unfortunate but inevitable. I do not concern myself with politics. I feel that God is in control and The world will fall apart of it's own accord.

That's great for you, but what the hell are you doing in the political forums if politics don't concern you?

The bible was written, passed along, translated, edited, and amended by MEN.
Men worried about their own "political power".
What happens when the rapture doesn't come? Is there a plan for that?

[100% ILL]

That's great for you, but what the hell are you doing in the political forums if politics don't concern you?

The bible was written, passed along, translated, edited, and amended by MEN.
Men worried about their own "political power".
What happens when the rapture doesn't come? Is there a plan for that?


I've always liked the Beastie boys, and I enjoy talking to people. Your last question is like asking me what if God didn't create the Earth. It would be pointless to defend my position if we cannot agree the Bible is true. However..............
II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward and not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[TheWedge]

I've always liked the Beastie boys, and I enjoy talking to people. Your last question is like asking me what if God didn't create the Earth. It would be pointless to defend my position if we cannot agree the Bible is true. However..............
II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward and not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There are several forums on this message board. I am only questioning why you choose the political forums if politics do not interest you.

So, I'm looking for an answer to my question about what if the rapture doesn't come, and since you resorted to another bible passage, I will assume your answer is, "thre is no plan for that because it is impossible"

[Whois]

There are several forums on this message board. I am only questioning why you choose the political forums if politics do not interest you.

So, I'm looking for an answer to my question about what if the rapture doesn't come, and since you resorted to another bible passage, I will assume your answer is, "thre is no plan for that because it is impossible"

Because Jebus told him to minister to the heretics (aka us)...

[100% ILL]

So, I'm looking for an answer to my question about what if the rapture doesn't come, and since you resorted to another bible passage, I will assume your answer is, "thre is no plan for that because it is impossible"

Yes quite impossible

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

I Peter 1:4-5
To an inheritance incorruptable, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you. Who are kept by the power of God through faith nto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[EN[i]GMA]

Such a difficult subject. On one hand, having babies born into houses that can't/don't want to support them isn't good but on the other, it is pretty much murder. You can't say what they do isn't taking a life. I guess you just have to leave it up to the individual to decide as much as you disagree with their choice.

[Vladimir]

I don't think anyone denies that it is taking a life. My original point was that there are situations (War, Self-Defense, etc.) where society condones the taking of a life, and abortion should be one of those situations.

[TheWedge]

Isnt it more tragic to kill a life when that life can fulfill the void of a couple whose own tragedy is infertility for example?

There's no shortage of babies in this world to fullfill those people.
Isn't it more tragic to take an innocent life, that has tasted life and knows what they are leaving than to destroy some cells that haven't even developed a brain and therefore can no nothing?

[greedygretchen]

Isnt it more tragic to kill a life when that life can fulfill the void of a couple whose own tragedy is infertility for example?

there is no shortage of children in need, children to adopt now, or children in the foster care system...and adopting a child is not easy as ABC123...it may be for celebrities and rich people but not for regular type people,for them adoption is a whole lot of money right up front and red tape as well...and if the couple really,really wanted to have a child but were infertile there's all kinds of medical breakthroughs concerning that (not that i think in-vitro and the like is right-but people are supposed to get to choose what they do to their own bodies right?)

and how does a mother contemplating abortion know that her child is going to be the lucky one that ends up with a nice loving family instead of stuck in the often brutal foster care system? there are so many children that are already alive today that need so much care and help but no one wants to pay attention to or acknowledge them...again it's a case of "save the fetus,starve the child"

[cookiepuss]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!

But then how would you get laid limp dick? You keep making commments like that one and even the hookers won't touch you.

[deita]

My thoughts on this are as follows(it's a very heavy subject)...since it is ultimately the person who will be carrying the child to term to decide if she is capable of taking care of her child for the rest of her life(having a child is a life long responsibility), I really don't think it is anybodys business! It has to be an agonizing decision to make and one she will have to live with the rest of her life. Since the people opposing abortion are not going to be with her the rest of her life. They should mind their own business. If you find yourself in that predicament(and hopefully you never will) then worry about it. Otherwise I believe it is a very personal choice and other peoples opinions mean nothing. Sorry.

[greedygretchen]

If she contemplated terminating the child then surely it would be better to put it up for adoption.

As for couples that could go through the IVF process if infertile, what about a couple who have attempted many cyles and have no more money to to another course and then give the baby a good start in life with secure financial backing

i don't think you really understood what i was trying to communicate...the bottom line is that there are many hypothetical situations (what if this,what if that) and safe and legal abortion should remain an open option to those situations because there will always be women who feel for whatever reason that they must choose that route and criminalizing abortion will not make that fact go away (in fact criminalization will take it to the back alley/blackmarket) also, you forget that many women who contemplate abortion do not always have abortions and that there will always be plenty of babies/children to adopt...you act like if abortion remains legal there will be no more children or something! you are not going to be the one to experience the pain and/or regret of having to choose abortion so let others choose how they must and live your own life by your own values...

[discodistortion]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!
you make it fucking sound like women are the only people who ever have sex.

[TheWedge]

If life begins at conception, how come I've never heard of a funeral for a miscarriage?

[Ace42]

If life begins at conception, how come I've never heard of a funeral for a miscarriage?

You don't watch Eastenders? They had one just a week or two ago.

[TheWedge]

You don't watch Eastenders? They had one just a week or two ago.

Never heard of it. Is that a BBC thing?
A funeral for a miscarriage? Sweet.
I stand corrected. :cool:

[GregBrady]

But then how would you get laid limp dick? You keep making commments like that one and even the hookers won't touch you.

THE TRUTH IS HARD TO HEAR!

I know it's hard to hear but sometimes saying the truth in a harsh way can wake people up.

For the exception of rape, if you get pregnant it’s your fault! Be responsibile and this conversation won’t happen!

YES, I understand mistakes happen but that doesn’t change the facts…
If you don’t have sex, you won’t struggle with the abortion dilemma.

I know it’s not that simple but there has to be some people (like myself) stating the truth. If everyone just argued about abortion and didn’t give any advice, then how will this issue get solved!?!?!

Ps: If you do have sex, use protection! How’s that?

[GregBrady]

you make it fucking sound like women are the only people who ever have sex.

THE TRUTH IS HARD TO HEAR 2

From what I’ve read on this board, most of the women agree that a man should have no say on abortion. If that’s the case, than take the responsibility on yourself and keep your legs closed!

[TheWedge]

THE TRUTH IS HARD TO HEAR!

I know it's hard to hear but sometimes the saying the truth in a harsh way can wake people up.

For the exception of rape, if you get pregnant it’s your fault! Be responsibility and this conversation won’t happen!

YES, I understand mistakes happen but that doesn’t change the facts…
If you don’t have sex, you won’t struggle with the abortion dilemma.

I know it’s not that simple but there has to be some people (like myself) stating the truth. If everyone just argued about abortion and didn’t give any advice, then how will this issue get solved!

Ps: If you do have sex, use protection! How’s that?

WOW! I thought you were kidding the first times, but you are just stupid.

[TheWedge]

THE TRUTH IS HARD TO HEAR 2

From what I’ve read on this board, most of the women agree that a man should have no say on abortion. If that’s the case, than take the responsibility on yourself and keep your legs closed!

No dumbass the GOVERNMENT shouldn't have a say. I don't recall any ladies of this board ever saying the man involved has no say in it.

[GregBrady]

WOW! I thought you were kidding the first times, but you are just stupid.

Why? Because I give a solution that YOU don't want to hear? Stop bitching about abortion and prevent it and this conversation won't take place!

Stop passing the buck, stop the excuses, stop the crying and take responsibility for your life and grow up!

[TheWedge]

Why? Because I give a solution that YOU don't want to hear? Stop bitching about abortion and prevent it and this conversation won't take place!

Stop passing the buck, stop the excuses, stop the crying and take responsibility for your life and grow up!

It would be great if it were really that simple.

[GregBrady]

It is! You're the one telling yourself it's not.

[TheWedge]

Then explain it to me chief.
How does this work?
Are you saying abortion should be legal only in the case of rape?
You keep saying this same stuff over and over but I don't quite get your ultimate solution I guess.

[discodistortion]

More often than you think, condoms break, condoms fall off, and sometimes (ew) they get stuck inside the lady. Even the most responsible couples can get pregnant. So what it really comes down to is "Don't have sex unless you're willing to raise a kid, or "Maybe we should have this just in case."

[GregBrady]

Then explain it to me chief.
How does this work?
Are you saying abortion should be legal only in the case of rape?
You keep saying this same stuff over and over but I don't quite get your ultimate solution I guess.
AND


More often than you think, condoms break, condoms fall off, and sometimes (ew) they get stuck inside the lady. Even the most responsible couples can get pregnant. So what it really comes down to is "Don't have sex unless you're willing to raise a kid, or "Maybe we should have this just in case."


All I’m saying, is if more people took responsibility for their actions and stopped getting pregnant with children they didn’t want, then we would NOT be having this discussion.

I feel that I have a responsibility to help wake anyone whenever I can. I think you HAVE to be harsh with your words in some cases because it does NOT sink in with certain people. Just because YOU understand, that does not mean EVERYONE does.

WORDS CAN WAKE PEOPLE AND MAKE THEM THINK!
Example…

1. Stop spreading your legs and you won’t have to have a fetus and your insides ripped out every 6 to 8 months!

2. Stop sticking your dick in girls and you won’t have to pay for the abortion. Then you can spend your hard earned money on car rims.

DID THAT MAKE YOU THINK?

It’s not rocket science, my solution is simple...
Work at being as responsible as you can and good things will happen! Act like an idiot and expect the worse…again,
THE TRUTH IS HARD TO HEAR!

I personally wouldn’t want my wife having an abortion but if she did, what the fuck can I do about it? NOTHING!

There’s NOTHING I can do about it, there’s nothing YOU can do about it. It’s NOT my place to judge because I don’t know and don’t feel ANYONE knows enough to be an expert on the subject.

I do the best I can and try to help wake others when I can! I've put my beliefs into actons! What have you done besides bitch, complain and argue with others about abortion?
WORDS ALONE CAN PLANT A SEED!

THE CHOICE TO GET PREGNANT OR NOT, IS STILL YOURS!

[TheWedge]

OK
Are you going to answer my question?
Are you saying that it should be illegal except in the case of rape?

[GregBrady]

OK
Are you going to answer my question?
Are you saying that it should be illegal except in the case of rape?

Why? So someone, possibly you can argue with my answer? My opinion on Abortion and YOUR opinion on abortion DOES NOT MATTER! DON’T YOU GET IT?

What matters is waking people and letting them know that they do have the final word! Arguing on what’s right and wrong does no good to solve the problem! You could serve this cause better by writing or saying creative things that people will ultimately remember.

Example...YOU CONTROL YOUR DESTINY DUMB ASS!

[Ace42]

Never heard of it. Is that a BBC thing?
A funeral for a miscarriage? Sweet.
I stand corrected. :cool:

Y0r, is one of their most popular soap operas. It is currently one of the highest things in the UK ratings, and has been around for a couple of decades.

[discodistortion]

DID THAT MAKE YOU THINK?


no. you're being totally counterproductive to the discussion. everyone already knows that people get abortions because they have sex. get over your righteous "wake up the world" nonsense because you're not enlightening anyone.

[BlimpieBluffin]

i dont think fetuses are really alive at 3 months, so i'm for women's choice.

it's better than having a child die of neglect when they're 15.

[GregBrady]

people get abortions because they have sex

NO! People get abortions because they don't want to raise a child or can't raise a child for what ever reason!

They get pregnant because they have sex!

YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE TO NOT GET PREGNANT. If you don't want to deal with the abortion problem then stop spreading your legs!

[deita]

stop spreading your legs!
or stop sweet talking the girl to spread her legs :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

[Happyrunr]

personally, i couldn't do it, unless it was a situation where i wouldn't have
the kid, not couldn't WOULDN'T... rape, etc. but, globally, im totally pro-
choice. i don't judge. i have a few friends (and one recently) who've done
it, and it's not the easiest choice, but... sometimes, it's the only option.

How is abortion the only choice? What about adoption? I realize this is a hard choice, but you already made the choice to have sex, knowing full-well you might become pregnant. I found myself pregnant at 19, and placed the child for adoption, so I feel the right to express myself since I've "been there".
I also have SEVERAL friends that have had one (or more) abortions, and I truly believe that the decision to abort will catch up with them one day. I feel for them. Personally, I just feel more comfortable knowing that I didnt stop a life, but rather provided a better life for a child (and 2 parents). I also dont judge others (not my job), I just feel so bad for those children who were obviously meant to be here, and never got their shot at life.

[Happyrunr]

there is no shortage of children in need, children to adopt now, or children in the foster care system...and adopting a child is not easy as ABC123...it may be for celebrities and rich people but not for regular type people,for them adoption is a whole lot of money right up front and red tape as well...and if the couple really,really wanted to have a child but were infertile there's all kinds of medical breakthroughs concerning that (not that i think in-vitro and the like is right-but people are supposed to get to choose what they do to their own bodies right?)

and how does a mother contemplating abortion know that her child is going to be the lucky one that ends up with a nice loving family instead of stuck in the often brutal foster care system? there are so many children that are already alive today that need so much care and help but no one wants to pay attention to or acknowledge them...again it's a case of "save the fetus,starve the child"

And how do we know that the child that is being aborted wouldnt end up having a wonderful life instead of ending up with and F'ed up life? The point is we DONT know. But a child is coming, and there is a purpose, a REASON for it. Who are we to say that- "hey, I'm going to abort my child because I think it's life will be messed up"? How about saying- "gee- I messed up, and I'm not going to punish the child for it"?
And yes, people can do whatever they want to their bodies. But people cant murder other people. If a woman has an abortion, she is killing. I want to know why Mark Hacking and Scott Peterson may be tried for killing their wives and their unborn children, but women can still kill their unborn legally? Why is suddenly the child so important when it is wanted, but when it's not wanted, abortion is okay?

[deita]

[COLOR=DarkRed]How is abortion the only choice? What about adoption?
i'm assuming you are a guy, you have never carried a child in your body for 9 months, it is not even a thought really for a male. What you do not and will not understand is either you abort or you carry to term their is no question after that. i am a parent and i as a woman understand the fine line. and please realize this is such a personal decision i really don't think it should be discussed in a public forum. each person must make this decision from their hearts, it is agonizing i am sure. but not our business!

[GregBrady]

or stop sweet talking the girl to spread her legs

If a girl spreads her legs for sweet talk, then SHE'S AN IDIOT!

btw...If you've read all my post then you know I lack sweet talk! LOL

[Happyrunr]

i'm assuming you are a guy, you have never carried a child in your body for 9 months, it is not even a thought really for a male. What you do not and will not understand is either you abort or you carry to term their is no question after that. i am a parent and i as a woman understand the fine line. and please realize this is such a personal decision i really don't think it should be discussed in a public forum. each person must make this decision from their hearts, it is agonizing i am sure. but not our business!

Yes, I am a woman and found myself pregnant at 19 and placed the child for adoption. I COMPLETLY agree it is none of my business what anyone in this life does- they can take it up to their higher up when they are dead to be judged- it's not my place. But I respect ALL life (something that seems to be lacking in our selfish "it's all about me" society") and have a hard time accepting the fact that thousands upon thousand of innocent lives are taken because the woman cant handle it, for whatever reason. I feel for them- I have friends that have had abortions. But how can you say it's none of my business that a child is being murdered? What gives that woman the right to murder ANYONE?

[deita]

my point is really not getting across... unless at the time of the pregnancy it is or isn't happening to you it isn't any of your concern. they themselves have to deal with the decision not you, that is unless of course you are indeed GOD. not anyone elses business.
judge not lest you yourself be judged (!)

[GregBrady]

judge not lest you yourself be judged

Some people REALLY take that quote to the extreme! We are humans and we were given the power of choice and the ability to make decisions! That's what makes us the smarter species!

We HAVE to judge on some level! If there's a person that's admitted to raping children, would you leave him alone with your kids? NO! That's because you have judged him as a sick, evil person and I think that's OK!

People have different opinions on what's right and what's wrong...The only way to come to some of those opinions is by judging!

You have to find balance with the bible and not just use it when it's convenient for your arguments! I think GOD will have the final say but it's MY job to make the right choices and decisions while I'm here on earth! God can take you to great places but it's your job to find that balance to get there!

[Whois]

Some people REALLY take that quote to the extreme! We are humans and we were given the power of choice and the ability to make decisions! That's what makes us the smarter species!

We HAVE to judge on some level! If there's a person that's admitted to raping children, would you leave him alone with your kids? NO! That's because you have judged him as a sick, evil person and I think that's OK!

People have different opinions on what's right and what's wrong...The only way to come to some of those opinions is by judging!

You have to find balance with the bible and not just use it when it's convenient for your arguments! I think GOD will have the final say but it's MY job to make the right choices and decisions while I'm here on earth! God can take you to great places but it's your job to find that balance to get there!

You're just mad because mom and dad caught you fucking Jan and now she's pregnant.

:D

[mcaismyhero]

You're just mad because mom and dad caught you fucking Jan and now she's pregnant.

:D

LOL

[mcaismyhero]

There is debate of that in itself. Does life beign, as Catholics are told to believe, at conception, when the heart begins to beat or when the child is born into the world?

I want to know why it is a double homocide if you kill a pregnant woman but not if you just kill the unborn baby.

[ASsman]

I don't give a damn, and neither should Christians. First of all someone should have the choice, you shouldn't impose your beliefs on someone else. If they are indeed sinning they will go to hell, justice will be paid. All you can do is give people the choice, just like they have the choice to smoke in the same room as their children, the choice to let their children play in the streets, the choice to let them drink and smoke and have unprotected sex.....
Its part of the whole belief, our free will, our ability to choose. If you believe an unborn child has a soul and that justifies it.... Obviously wouldn't work (seperation of religion and state). If not then all you have is a fetus, or a fertilized egg, where does it stop beeing a child.....

[mcaismyhero]

i dont think fetuses are really alive at 3 months, so i'm for women's choice.

it's better than having a child die of neglect when they're 15.

There's this thing, maybe you've heard of it, called adoption. If a mother doesn't want the kid she can give it away to people who she thinks might be better parents. So just because a kid is born who was not wanted doesn't mean he or shee will die of neglect.

[mcaismyhero]

That's a tough one. I'm really not sure. Honestly. If one of them has to die....Crap I don't know. But you really don't see that too often anymore. Our modern medicine has prevented much of that. But you've stumped me.

[mcaismyhero]

Yeah, well I was asked that qestion in an exam and I had to give it from a Catholic POV, ie.pro-life, but which way would it go? I didn't answer so well, its a tough one

Why did you have to? Was is for religion class or something?

[mcaismyhero]

I was just wondering. I also went to Catholic school all through high school. It was kinda sucky (but it did have its good points).

[mcaismyhero]

Yeah I kinda hate getting into it too.

[EN[i]GMA]

Why I've avoided the thread. I don't know what to say. Both sides suck. Kids you can't take care of being mistreated is horrible. So is sucking a babies brain out through a vacuum. Really is a lose, lose situation this permiscous sex.

[ASsman]

Tell your jackass conservative congressmen to legalize the damn morning-after pill. JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST!

[Whois]

JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST!

That image always makes me laugh...as does this:

"See Hitler on ice!" - History of the World Part 1

[EN[i]GMA]

Not as good as "Jews in Space".

[Whois]

GMA']Not as good as "Jews in Space".

SHIT! I forgot about that...yeah, you're right.

"We're Jews in outer space...we're shoving right off to save the Hebrew race!"

[EN[i]GMA]

The flying Stars of David are just classic. That whole movie was great.

"I bring you 15! 15 Commandments!"

"10! 10 Commandments!!"

[TheWedge]

GMA']The flying Stars of David are just classic. That whole movie was great.

"I bring you 15! 15 Commandments!"

"10! 10 Commandments!!"

(y)

"A WHOLE field of wacky weed! We are now armed with mighty wonder-joint!"

"The only thing the Romans don't have a God for, is premature ejaculation.
But I hear, that is coming soon."

[EN[i]GMA]

Such brilliance.

[baltogrl71]

Lets get this right from the begining!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop spreading your legs and getting knocked up and this conversation won't take place.
Close your legs!
Hard to hear but it's true ladies! Have more respect for yourself and think about the outcome!
you are so sad! so you have never had sex? and what about when the girl has been dating her boyfreind for 3 years he takes her to europe she gets pregnant they come home two weeks later the day before xmas he brings her stuff in a box to her apt and tells her hes done then two days later she fins out she is pregnant with twins? oh that must be a double homicide.

[Tone Capone]

you are so sad! so you have never had sex? and what about when the girl has been dating her boyfreind for 3 years he takes her to europe she gets pregnant they come home two weeks later the day before xmas he brings her stuff in a box to her apt and tells her hes done then two days later she fins out she is pregnant with twins? oh that must be a double homicide.

It's two murders. And anyone who would want abort their twins just because the got dumped is a pathetic piece of shit. :mad:

[Happyrunr]

Tell your jackass conservative congressmen to legalize the damn morning-after pill. JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST!


Some would say that is the same thing as abortion.

[Happyrunr]

Im interested to know seeing as you are obviously pro-life, what is your view upon the circumstance that a woman could die if she were to give birth, I mean if she found out early in the pregnancy. Should the mother take the risk of dying and having a child grow up deprived of its mother? :confused:

I went to Catholic schools too- can I just say that we were taught that you should leave it in God's hands and have the baby- I guess you see what happens- if you die, it was meant to be. That doesnt mean I believe that- a part of me does- but I dont know if that's what I would suggest to my best friend if she were in that situation. It's tricky.

[Ace42]

I guess you see what happens- if you die, it was meant to be. That doesnt mean I believe that- a part of me does- but I dont know if that's what I would suggest to my best friend if she were in that situation. It's tricky.

I think the argument ca nbe debunked as follows:

There is no need to look both ways when crossing the road, as if you die, it was meant to be.

The same argument could be put forward to refusing any sort of medication.

[GregBrady]

Originally Posted by Whois
You're just mad because mom and dad caught you fucking Jan and now she's pregnant.


Bullshit...I just came in her mouth!!!!! It was cindy I knocked up! From time to time I also landed a few in little Bobbies ass! We play the Micheal Jackson game and we don't care who talks shit about us!

If you were a real man, you'd let Alice strap on that dildo and fuck you up the ass just like my father's done to you! I know dads dick is small, and Alice has that 12 inch dildo, but you have to stretch that ass at some point! :D

[Whois]

Bullshit...I just came in her mouth!!!!! It was cindy I knocked up! From time to time I also landed a few in little Bobbies ass! We play the Micheal Jackson game and we don't care who talks shit about us!

If you were a real man, you'd let Alice strap on that dildo and fuck you up the ass just like my father's done to you! I know dads dick is small, and Alice has that 12 inch dildo, but you have to stretch that ass at some point! :D

(Mr Burns voice)

Excellent...