View Full Version : Who cares if Bush thought he was right...
GregBrady
08-13-2004, 07:09 PM
If a stranger shot and killed someone you loved because somebody else told the stranger the person you loved had a gun but was wrong, would you hold the stranger accountable?
Think about it before asking me "uhhh...what's that got to do with anything?"
ASsman
08-13-2004, 07:13 PM
Yes.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 07:17 PM
Yes, the war on terror is unjustified, as we have said repeatedly using different arguments referencing different sources.
This is precisely why the UN doesn't sanction international vigilantism and why the US doesn't sanction civil vigliantism.
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 07:24 PM
I wouldn't hold the stranger accountable, if he's just a tool of someone else evil and was pretty much forced to do it. I know I'd be upset and want revenge against that person, but eventually I'd realize he was just someone used wrongly, and I'd be mad at the person who sent him.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 07:26 PM
"Used" - people shouldn't go around shooting other people. He's WORSE than the evil person, because at least the evil person is calculating. The "used" person is just dangerously stupid. People like that would cause trouble even if there weren't any "evil" people around.
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 07:29 PM
No, we're talking about the army. They wouldn't do that shit if they weren't sent to. Some people have no other monetary option than to go into the army.
I'm proud of our troops, regardless of what is happening. We're against the war, not the soldiers.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 07:31 PM
I'm proud of our troops, regardless of what is happening. We're against the war, not the soldiers.
Even the ones at Abu Ghraib? What about the ones that yelled "Say hello to Allah for me" whilst raining hellfires down on innocent refugees on the highway of death?
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 07:36 PM
You can't let a few bad apples bring the rest of the people down. I don't agree with what happened in Abu Ghraib, and believe that's brought on by bad leadership.
I'm NOT going to say fuck the troops because there are a few people fucked in the head over there. I have friends in the army, who were shipped out involuntarily, and to even THINK that people wouldn't support them because of a few fucktards at that prison is unfathomnable.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 07:42 PM
You can't let a few bad apples bring the rest of the people down.
And it was a few bad apples at My Lai, and a few bad apples on the highway of death, etc etc.
I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks getting paid to use firearms on people is a morally acceptable position, nor believe that in a profession whose sole purpose is to kill other human beings the people who are willing to brutalise other people are a "poor misrepresented minority"
I'm not saying there aren't decent US soldiers, merely that I think because it is your country, you are a bit biased in how you view them.
Take the Israeli army, brutalising the innocent is rife in it - you think an Israeli would not say "few bad apples. Understandably frustrated at a situation their leadership has put them in. Our boys and generally upstanding human beings, even when they are aiming high velocity projectile launchers at people, with the intention of traumatising internal bodily organs to the point of cardiac / respiratory / neurological failure" ?
Armies are bad, hmmkay.
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 07:50 PM
You're fuckin' right I'm biased. My friend had NO options coming out of high school, and joined the army. This was in 2001. There's a good chance I'll never see him again.
Armies are NOT bad, end of story. It's the war that's bad. If we didn't have these people signing up for the army, there would be a draft. These essentially are the people who keep others from being sent overseas.
I guarantee you, majority of the people who join the army are not there because they think guns are totally awesome, and because they want to go kick some ass. People are not there because they think it's morally right, or not. People are there because they don't have options. They are promised good health care for them and their families, and a decent salary. When there are fewer and fewer job opportunities in the US nowadays, the army does seem like a good option if you don't have money for college.
I don't see why you think all the army is a bunch of gung-ho 'let's go kill them' people. Maybe it's just from what you see on TV. A lot of them are fed up with the war, against George Bush, depressed human beings. I feel sorry for a lot of them. And I support bringing them back. These are the people who fight so others don't have to, which I admire.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 08:06 PM
You're fuckin' right I'm biased. My friend had NO options coming out of high school, and joined the army. This was in 2001. There's a good chance I'll never see him again.
There is always a choice. Was he drafted? No? Pshaw. Even when there is a draft, people still have a choice. People have gone to prison all over the world to not go to war. "Oh, I don't want to be poor, so I don't have a choice to learn how to use a gun, get given a load of equipment, go into a foreign country and end up killing people substantially POORER than myself (US being allegedly one of the richest countries in the world)"
What happened to the "I know, I'll not join the army, and stay poor instead of signing up to be part of an inhuman killing machine" option?
Armies are NOT bad, end of story. It's the war that's bad. If we didn't have these people signing up for the army, there would be a draft. These essentially are the people who keep others from being sent overseas.
Yeah right, I bet all of these people said "I know, I'll sign up so that someone else doesn't have to compromise their ethics!" Every single one of them. I bet they were so eager to take this altruistic opportunity that they forgo all the "wage of sin" bit and do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
If there were a draft, there'd still be a choice. I'd go to prison sooner than be forced to kill another human being, let alone simply "being a bit poor, but still better off than the majority of the planet"
People are there because they don't have options. They are promised good health care for them and their families, and a decent salary. When there are fewer and fewer job opportunities in the US nowadays, the army does seem like a good option if you don't have money for college.
So basically, they join the army because they think they won't have to kill people, and thus for a bit of marching and shouting, they get to sponge off the state, rather than doing a productive job that actually benefits humanity?
I don't see why you think all the army is a bunch of gung-ho 'let's go kill them' people. Maybe it's just from what you see on TV. A lot of them are fed up with the war, against George Bush, depressed human beings. I feel sorry for a lot of them. These are the people who fight so others don't have to, which I admire.
I don't think they are "gung-ho kill them" people, but I do think they are people that should know better than to sign up to a murder-factory for their 30 pieces of silver.
The army kills, it has no other purpose. The medical arm is to patch up the killers so they can go out and kill more. The cooking arm is to make sure they can go further and kill more people without having to spend time just getting food. The engineering section keeps the kill-machines working at maximum lethality. The legal section makes sure that those that commit atrocities need not sweat it. The admin section tallies up the corpses.
Everything to do with the army has one purpose, to help it kill more efficiently. Anyone who thinks joining the army isn't about killing is a fool. "It's just a job" - yeah, so is hooker, bounty-hunter, assassin, drug-dealer.
"It's the only option I have to get out of my hole" - boohoo. I don't turn to drug-dealing to fund my education, I don't see why turning to legalised murder is any more morally defensible.
To FORCE its will on the people (hahaha, and afterall your country is so free, so it couldn't force people to act against their will, now could it?) the government needs soldiers. If all these "non-gung ho" soldiers followed their principles, then the only people left to force people to do the draft etc would be these "few bad apples" - which are in such a minority that it wouldn't matter them walking around your country, right?
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 08:43 PM
My friend joined the army in August 2001, when there was no threat of any war. He believed he would just go to training, and be in the reserves, and never be called out. He believed that he wouldn't be sent anywhere because the US wasn't at war. He had no chance of killing anyone at that point. Which is why he joined. And like I said, no good-paying jobs in our area. He wouldn't be able to support himself otherwise.
And I'm not saying that people who join the army are doing so to be heros, so others don't have to go. I'm saying in the long run, if they didn't do it, we would have to. No one thinks "I'm gonna do this so someone else doesn't have to" it just works out that way.
A LOT of people aren't going to dodge the draft and go to prison. If there wasn't the army, there would be a draft, if everyone did say "I'm going to be a chickenhawk and avoid the war", the prisons would fill up, fuck everyone's tax dollars. Luckily, our country doesn't have a majority of cowards. So yeah, people do their patriotic duty and go to war, even if it's not what they believe in. And I do have respect for that. You're basically saying we shouldn't have a military at all? That people who believed in peace should stay out of the army? And what happens when WW3 or another *actual* fightable war comes along? We'll all be dead, because OTHER COUNTRIES have militaries. To say that there shouldn't be an army at all is stupid. I believe every country should be protected, but I don't believe that they should fight unreasonable and wrong wars.
My friend actually joined the army to be a cable-layer, and hasn't even learned to fire a gun. Hmm, the army is all for killing huh? How about another one of my friends who signed up to be a medic with the Red Cross? Guess he wanted to kill people too. Not everyone in the army kills people you know. And your theory about people just doing it to help more killing is ridiculous to me too. No one signs up for the Red Cross thinking "Yeah man. I can patch them up so they can kill more Iraqis." They're compassionate people who actually care about human beings, which is why they're there. They're MEDICS.
You don't know what it's like to be poor. You have the internet. You probably have options in life. You probably have no idea what it's like to be struggling, thinking, I can either join the army, or starve on the streets. There aren't a lot of jobs out there to support oneself, only minimum-wage, shit-paying jobs which wouldn't cover majority of expenses. If someone seriously gave you the option to either be homeless, or go into the army....I'd like to see what you'd say.
Here's reality. Our world is a bitter, sad place. Everyone hates America. The only way to be safe is for all the countries to have armies, or none of them to have armies. And sad to say, the second one ain't happening. So I respect the men in uniform who do their patriotic duty.
Enough said.
mcaismyhero
08-13-2004, 08:49 PM
Here's reality. Our world is a bitter, sad place. We're constantly attacking other countries. The only way to be safe is for all the countries to have armies, or none of them to have armies. And sad to say, the second one ain't happening. So I respect the men in uniform who do their patriotic duty.
Enough said.
I think you just won the argument right there with that statement. A country NEEDS an army to defend thenselves. Otherwise, they're fucked. Some other country who DOES have an army is gonna think that the the one without an army is weak. And they will be right because they will be able to march right in and either take it over or blow the shit out of it or both.
Don't question the bravery or career choice of our soldiers, Ace. I don't see you over there doing what they are doing day after day in the 100+ degree heat under constant bombardment. Talk to us after you've done it or don't talk.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 09:25 PM
My friend joined the army in August 2001, when there was no threat of any war. He believed he would just go to training, and be in the reserves, and never be called out.
Kinda like someone joining the fire-brigade thinking they'll only have to rescue kittens and not risk their lives, then. IE stupid.
If there wasn't the army, there would be a draft, if everyone did say "I'm going to be a chickenhawk and avoid the war", the prisons would fill up, fuck everyone's tax dollars.
Except that if everyone who was draftable was in prison, the taxes would not pay for their keep (people in prison don't pay taxes), and there would be no option but to dispense with the draft. Likewise there'd be no-one to put them in prison, no-one to police them, no-one to do anything, as they'd all be "draft dodging criminals" themselves, thus making the system collapse. As no government would destroy the country out of spite just because they can't get their own way, the only possible outcome is they'd have to give up, as a draft would simply not be an option. People joining the army are thus jsut maintaining the system that forced them into it in the first place.
Luckily, our country doesn't have a majority of cowards.
Yeah, because it is so much more cowardly to go to prison for your beliefs than to join the army expecting to "just go to training, and be in the reserves, and never be called out."
Pshaw. Patriotic flag-waving nonsense and drivel.
So yeah, people do their patriotic duty and go to war, even if it's not what they believe in.
That is the antithesis of your patriotic duty. Your country is based on notions of freedom and equality. Going to war for your country, when it means betraying these principles is a joke.
And I do have respect for that. You're basically saying we shouldn't have a military at all? That people who believed in peace should stay out of the army?
Armies and peace are irreconcileable.
We'll all be dead, because OTHER COUNTRIES have militaries. To say that there shouldn't be an army at all is stupid. I believe every country should be protected, but I don't believe that they should fight unreasonable and wrong wars.
So you need an army to protect you from other armies? And why do you think all these other countries need armies? Oh yes, TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM OTHER ARMIES.
It's like a giant mexican stand-off with everyone pointing guns at everyone, too scared to put their gun down and back off. Well, in this situation there are only two ways out - someone exercises a bit of faith in human nature, and trusts the others enough to put their gun down first. Or, every stays tense and twitchy, fingers on the triggers, and sooner or later someone gets a bit too stressed, and BANG. You have a Sept 11th. You have an Iraq war. You have a Cuban missile crisis. At best, someone you don't care about gets fucked, at worst EVERYONE gets fucked.
This is no way for humanity to progress, and if someone doesn't try to make a difference, sooner or later it will end badly. Over a long enough period of time, everything goes from being improbable to being likely - that includes global self-destruction.
My friend actually joined the army to be a cable-layer, and hasn't even learned to fire a gun. Hmm, the army is all for killing huh? How about another one of my friends who signed up to be a medic with the Red Cross? Guess he wanted to kill people too. Not everyone in the army kills people you know.
That's bullshit. Either he is not properly in the army (he is in some sort of subcontracted firm) or that's a lie. All the engineers and medics get basic military training. The "Red Cross" is not an army, nor under army juristiction, so that is irrelevant, although I assume you actually meant he was in the medical corps. Both of these jobs not only could quite conceivably put them in a combat situation (they do, and I have heard personal accounts of engineers having to kill) but also allow an army to kill more efficiently. Divorcing these people from the army's killing is like divorcing the Nazis in admin who didn't kill a single Jew from the gassings they presided over. Not pulling the trigger does not mitigate moral responsibility.
You don't know what it's like to be poor. You have the internet. You probably have options in life. You probably have no idea what it's like to be struggling, thinking, I can either join the army, or starve on the streets. There aren't a lot of jobs out there to support oneself, only minimum-wage, shit-paying jobs which wouldn't cover majority of expenses. If someone seriously gave you the option to either be homeless, or go into the army....I'd like to see what you'd say.
Hmmmm, let's see. I'm on the streets, I'm staving. I can only get a job that wouldn't cover the majority of expenses. Or I can join the army and kill people. But because it makes my life easier, that makes it ok?
I guess in that respect, drug-dealing and pimping must be OK then. By your argument, being poor is reason enough to compromise your ethical principles. Infact, being a drug-dealer is BETTER, because some drug-addicts might kill THEMSELVES, but unlike a soldier, you don't set out to murder people.
I guess being a slaver is ok, if you are poor. I mean, it means you won't have to starve on the street...
If I had to choose between being poor and hungry, or even poor and starving to death; and being forced to kill another person, I'd pick death. I am not a murderer, and no matter how comfy it would make my life, I'd not murder someone. I'm not rich, I'm not even well off. I'm heavily in debt, and pretty soon I'm going to have to start giving up the luxuries I have become accustomed to. And guess what, yes, I do have options open to me. I am adequetly qualified, and there are plenty of jobs out there for people who are willing to do them. And here's the pinch, the choice I'm making is not to get a job. Yes, that's right, I'd rather be poor and go without than buy into the capitalist system that makes other people suffer. I am not going to get a job and pay taxes, because those taxes are used to buy guns and missiles which kill innocent arab children. Anyone who isn't willing to sacrifice luxury for moral integrity doesn't deserve financial security.
Here's reality. Our world is a bitter, sad place. Everyone hates America. The only way to be safe is for all the countries to have armies, or none of them to have armies. And sad to say, the second one ain't happening. So I respect the men in uniform who do their patriotic duty.
Here is YOUR reality. The reality that every single one of your soldiers, like it or not, know it or not is fighting to maintain.
Do you know what it would take for them to make the world better? Nothing. All they have to do is "Nothing" and the world would be a better place.
The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are.
The world is like a ride at an amusement park. It goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride..." And we... kill those people. Ha ha "Shut him up." "We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." Just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. Jesus mudered; Martin Luther King mudered; Malcolm X murdered; Gandhi murdered; John Lennon murdered; Reagan.... wounded. But it doesn't matter because: It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love.
The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defences each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/orwell/93/bill.html
Ace42
08-13-2004, 09:52 PM
I think you just won the argument right there with that statement. A country NEEDS an army to defend thenselves. Otherwise, they're fucked. Some other country who DOES have an army is gonna think that the the one without an army is weak. And they will be right because they will be able to march right in and either take it over or blow the shit out of it or both.
Don't question the bravery or career choice of our soldiers, Ace. I don't see you over there doing what they are doing day after day in the 100+ degree heat under constant bombardment. Talk to us after you've done it or don't talk.
So, MCA, from this we can deduce that when you see someone who is "weak" and unable to defend themselves you instantly start thinking about how you can dominate them, take their shit, and beat the crap out of them? No? Guess mankind isn't as untrustworthy and shitty as you make it seem.
And I will question the bravery and career choice of your soldiers, and be totally justified in it.
How is expecting to spend your time in a barracks on US soil and not having to do squat "Brave" ? What's so "brave" about torturing Iraqi civilians? What's so brave about firing patriot missiles at a dot on the radar screen? What's so brave about firing artillery shells into a building not even in visible range? What's so brave about wandering around a parade ground?
You don't see me over there because I am not a murderer, not because I couldn't be a murderer.
You think I couldn't do as good a job as these uneducated hicks? Let me guess, because I am a pacifist and not American, it means that if I were in a warzone my strength would half to the point where I'd not be able to carry a the body armour, burgher and gun. It's well documented fact that pacifists can survive in 100 degrees + heat, right?
Pull your head out of your arse, MCA. Soldiers aren't anything special. As QueenAdRock points out, they are just (mainly) poor kids who signed up for the only job they can do. That doesn't make them braver than anyone else. That doesn't make them "better" than anyone else. They are just normal people, but normal people who kill.
If anything that makes it worse.
By any reasonable definition, the US soldiers are infact *cowards*
What else do you call it when a superior force that totally outclasses the opposition picks on people who are relatively defenceless?
That doesn't make them brave, that makes them bullies.
Put down your flag, and start looking at it like a human, rather than a sheeple.
mcaismyhero
08-13-2004, 09:54 PM
Let me ask you this. Do you think that everyone who is in the army is "evil" and is "just out there to kill?" My grandpa died in Vietnam. Was he an evil person for being in the Marines? He was just doing his duty for his contry. Sure, Vietnam was wrong but those who fought in it were brave men. They put their lives on the line when a bunch of pansies over here were critisizing them and going to Canada all so that they could save their own asses. Now I don't want to get into a huge Vietnam debate but I just want to ask you if you think that being in the armed forces is an evil thing to do. If so, tell me that my grandpa (actally both of them, my other one was in WWII) was wrong and a jerk for going to battle.
mcaismyhero
08-13-2004, 10:08 PM
So, MCA, from this we can deduce that when you see someone who is "weak" and unable to defend themselves you instantly start thinking about how you can dominate them, take their shit, and beat the crap out of them? No? Guess mankind isn't as untrustworthy and shitty as you make it seem.
I don't do that but there sure are countries who would. Look at the Germans or the Soviets.
And I will question the bravery and career choice of your soldiers, and be totally justified in it. How is expecting to spend your time in a barracks on US soil and not having to do squat "Brave" ? What's so "brave" about torturing Iraqi civilians? What's so brave about firing patriot missiles at a dot on the radar screen? What's so brave about firing artillery shells into a building not even in visible range? What's so brave about wandering around a parade ground?
Not all soldiers torture Iraqi citizens. These are all unbashed generalizations and you know it. How about going into an unsecured area of Falluja not knowing who are enemies and who are civilians? The fear of walking right into a minefield? Marching for days in the 100+ degree heat under all of that crap they have to carry, while being fired on?
You don't see me over there because I am not a murderer, not because I couldn't be a murderer.
Pacifist bullshit.
You think I couldn't do as good a job as these uneducated hicks? Let me guess, because I am a pacifist and not American, it means that if I were in a warzone my strength would half to the point where I'd not be able to carry a the body armour, burgher and gun. It's well documented fact that pacifists can survive in 100 degrees + heat, right? Pull your head out of your arse, MCA. Soldiers aren't anything special. As QueenAdRock points out, they are just (mainly) poor kids who signed up for the only job they can do. That doesn't make them braver than anyone else. That doesn't make them "better" than anyone else. They are just normal people, but normal people who kill.
Normal people who actually risk their lives every day for their job. You don't risk your life every day to earn your living do you? These normal people do. The kill people, but only if necessary. Most (I repeat most) soldiers won't kill people in cold blood or, as you generalize, torture prisoners. Normal people don't do that.
By any reasonable definition, the US soldiers are infact *cowards* What else do you call it when a superior force that totally outclasses the opposition picks on people who are relatively defenceless?
That doesn't make them brave, that makes them bullies.
How is this? By doing the jobs that others are too afraid to do? That makes them cowards?
Put down your flag, and start looking at it like a human, rather than a sheeple.
I am looking at it like a human. It doesn't matter what nationality I am. If the soldiers from my country were fighting with dignity and putting their lives on the line I would support them, no matter what nationality I was.
Ace42
08-13-2004, 10:25 PM
Let me ask you this. Do you think that everyone who is in the army is "evil" and is "just out there to kill?"
No, I do not. I think a lot of them are stupid. Every single person who thought "I'll get college funding, some pay, medical benefits, and all I'll have to do is march around boot camp and do some training" was a fool. Like in Futurama when Bender and Fry enlist to get discounts, and just before they quit, war gets declared and they are fucked. Many a true word spoken in jest. I don't run across motorways banking on not getting run over. I don't commit crimes banking on not getting caught. I would not join the army banking on not having to fight.
My grandpa died in Vietnam. Was he an evil person for being in the Marines? He was just doing his duty for his contry. Sure, Vietnam was wrong but those who fought in it were brave men. They put their lives on the line when a bunch of pansies over here were critisizing them and going to Canada all so that they could save their own asses. Now I don't want to get into a huge Vietnam debate but I just want to ask you if you think that being in the armed forces is an evil thing to do. If so, tell me that my grandpa (actally both of them, my other one was in WWII) was wrong and a jerk for going to battle.
Hey, my grandparents were in WW2 too you know. My paternal grand-father fought at Monte Cassino, in Africa, and even witnessed Mussolini's execution. Having been obliged to kill, he came back certain that it is wrong. Yeah he thought that the war needed to be fought, and it was for the best, but that doesn't mean he thought it was morally "right"
He compromised his ethics for an ideal, and he paid the price. I'd say he was brave, but not because he put his life in danger. I'd say what made him, and other soldiers, "brave" is that they are willing to sacrifice their principles (and thus sacrifice their peace of mind / wellbeing of conscience) for an ideal that they believed in.
Walking into a danerous situation isn't "brave" in my book. People do that all over the place, all the time, every day. Is the illegal immigrant cockle-picker who risks drowning to get a pittance for his family "brave" ? I'd say not. Is the hooker crawling the curb, risking mugging rape and murder "brave" ? Are stuntmen "brave" ?
Killing people isn't brave either. Is a sniper, sitting sometimes MILES from a target blowing someone's head of "Brave" ?
Going to a strange country isn't brave either - illegal immigrants do that all the time, and they don't have a platoon of their buddies along either, nor guns to stave off the foreigners.
Is fighting a war where you have every major advantage in your favour "brave" ?
I'd say the brave thing is knowing that what you are doing is "wrong" and knowing that when you pull the trigger, you are killing a part of yourself, and doing it anyway, and being willing to accept that you will never sleep a night again in your life.
Killing someone else to save yourself is cowardly - just because some general has told you "they are on the other side" doesn't change that. Killing people to save someone else isn't brave either. If someone murdered to feed their family, it would still be cowardly.
Voluntarily putting yourself into a situation where you HAVE to kill to save your own hide isn't brave either.
Either way, fighting a war you don't believe in is as wrong as it gets.
If you were in a prison somewhere distant, and a fellow prisoner, a friend, a comrade in arms was with you... If this happened, and you were told "one of you must die" - then you'd have to kill your friend to save your own hide. Would that be "ok" ? What if you were told you had to kill your friend to save your family, would that make it ok?
So why does the uniform you are wearing, or the language he speaks, or even just how well you get on with a person make it OK to kill an "enemy" but "wrong" to kill a friend?
I think it is the sickest kind of arrogance to assume you have the right to judge who deserves to live and who deserves to die. It is even sicker when you think that them merely being "on the other team" is reason enough to choose in favour of "your guys"
As it stands, the current system makes it easier for US citizens to join the army and kill than it is not to.
Everyone has to answer to their own conscience in the end. I think it is braver to fight against popular opinion, against people calling you a "coward" and telling you what you owe people, and that you have an obligation to this or that, I guess I think that sometimes it is braver to sit down and be counted than go with the crowd and fight for something you don't believe in.
mcaismyhero
08-13-2004, 10:41 PM
I mostly agree with you. Of course I believe that killing is wrong and you shouldn't do it just to do it and yada yada yada. I understand all that crap. I'm just saying that I think that when you put all of those things that I mentioned together that it does make someone brave. When you take them out of context they don't make sense. But all of those things, I believe, DO make a soldier brave. This war was stupid, I admit. But can't the soldiers still have pride for what they are doing, knowing that they ARE making SOME sort of difference, whatever it may be?
I'd say the brave thing is knowing that what you are doing is "wrong" and knowing that when you pull the trigger, you are killing a part of yourself, and doing it anyway, and being willing to accept that you will never sleep a night again in your life.
I do agree with this statement though. That is right on. I guess my point in all of this is soldiers should know right from wrong and live with the consequenses of what they believe should be done. I dunno, I'm kinda tired right now so that might seem really dumb but I am going to bed now anyway.
And by the way, I do think that stuntmen are brave. For the record. ;) :)
Ace42
08-13-2004, 10:46 PM
I don't do that but there sure are countries who would. Look at the Germans or the Soviets.
"I'm sure there are countries that would" and then you name two countries who have recently gone pacifist. Or did you miss Glasnost and Perestroika? If that wasn't Russia making the first step in "lowering its gun" I dunno what is.
How about going into an unsecured area of Falluja not knowing who are enemies and who are civilians? The fear of walking right into a minefield? Marching for days in the 100+ degree heat under all of that crap they have to carry, while being fired on?
Hey, just because that sort of uncertainty makes you shit yourself, doesn't mean it does for everyone. It's a job, there are risks. I'd say it is as tense as being an astronaut and not knowing if your shuttle's gonna do a Challenger, or deep-sea diving and not knowing if your equipment's going to fail, or conditions strand you deep underwater. Neither being a soldier, and astronaut or a deepsea diver scares me. There are risks, you take the risks, you take your chance. I could be an astronaut quite comfortably (well, I fear it would bore me, but I could do it) - does that make me brave enough to comment in your narrow viewpoint?
Oh, and the fact that it's hot and heavy is totally irrelevant - lots of people carry heavy things in hot climates.
Pacifist bullshit.
Right, so if someone uses a gun to intentionally kill another person, they are a murderer. BUT, if a general tells them it's ok, then they are *heroes* - right, that makes so much more sense than my "pacifist bullshit."
Since when has someone telling you it's ok made something ok? Since when has someone had the right to tell the world what is morally justified and what isn't? Since when have men been able to CHOOSE when rules need to be followed? It's a double standard which you have been conditioned into believing by war-movies and patriotic nonsense. If I could film a brutal murder and a "heroic killing" - it is quite conceivable you'd not be able to tell the difference. What does this tell you? They are infact the same apart from a totally arbitrary distinction which I refuse to buy into.
Normal people who actually risk their lives every day for their job. You don't risk your life every day to earn your living do you? These normal people do. The kill people, but only if necessary. Most (I repeat most) soldiers won't kill people in cold blood or, as you generalize, torture prisoners. Normal people don't do that.
I risk my life every time I cross the road. I risk my life every time I get in a car. If I were a pilot, I'd risk my life every time I got into a plane. Putting yourself into a high-risk situation doesn't make you brave.
How is this? By doing the jobs that others are too afraid to do? That makes them cowards?
I am not scared to do the job they are doing. You seem to think an unwillingness to kill means that I couldn't:
Run about a bit with people firing lead at me. Carry some heavy weights in the heat. Point the tip of a long metal rod at someone and press a button.
Ooooh, so brave. So heroic. You're right, I couldn't do the same job that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THE WORLD OVER ARE DOING. Pshaw.
With a gun, killing is easy. Point, click, they are dead. Glorifying it is a joke. The only hard part is reconciling taking someone else's life with your conscience. The difficulty of that is directly proportional to the weight of your conscience.
If the soldiers from my country were fighting with dignity and putting their lives on the line I would support them, no matter what nationality I was.
"fighting with dignity"
ig·ni·ty Audio pronunciation of "dignity" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dgn-t)
n. pl. dig·ni·ties
1. The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.
2. Inherent nobility and worth: the dignity of honest labor.
3.
1. Poise and self-respect.
2. Stateliness and formality in manner and appearance.
4. The respect and honor associated with an important position.
What about pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger deserves respect? Why does a soldier doing it deserve more respect than anyone else? Because they have a nice uniform?
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 10:51 PM
So, MCA, from this we can deduce that when you see someone who is "weak" and unable to defend themselves you instantly start thinking about how you can dominate them, take their shit, and beat the crap out of them? No?
Yes. America does think that way. Wonder why we went after Iraq and not, say, North Korea?
How is expecting to spend your time in a barracks on US soil and not having to do squat "Brave" ? What's so "brave" about torturing Iraqi civilians? What's so brave about firing patriot missiles at a dot on the radar screen? What's so brave about firing artillery shells into a building not even in visible range? What's so brave about wandering around a parade ground?
The ones who are here wouldn't be considered "brave" per se. However, what's so brave about the ones in Iraq? How about being in a place filled with missiles and bombs, being scared out of their minds, not knowing if they're going to survive? They get fired upon over there. They have enemy fire, enemy missiles, all that shit. To still stand up to that is called BRAVERY. And like I said before, those were about 10 people out of THOUSANDS of troops that tortured the Iraqis.
You think I couldn't do as good a job as these uneducated hicks? Let me guess, because I am a pacifist and not American, it means that if I were in a warzone my strength would half to the point where I'd not be able to carry a the body armour, burgher and gun. It's well documented fact that pacifists can survive in 100 degrees + heat, right?
Uneducated hicks, huh. Yeah. John Kerry, with a degree from Yale, someone who most likely has a better educational background than YOU went to war. Don't stereotype these people. A lot of the time, they are intelligent people with their own minds.
Pull your head out of your arse, MCA. Soldiers aren't anything special. As QueenAdRock points out, they are just (mainly) poor kids who signed up for the only job they can do. That doesn't make them braver than anyone else. That doesn't make them "better" than anyone else. They are just normal people, but normal people who kill.
No one said they were better. We said simply to support the people who wage the war that other people are too pussy to do. That's the reason why communism wouldn't work. If everyone got the same thing - same money, education, health care - what incentive is it to be a janitor? What incentive would you have to be a garbageman, or *gasp* a soldier?
So, you're saying we should have no army, correct? You say that these people are murderous people who are evil. So what happens in WW3? Hmm? Don't think it's gonna happen? It will. It's inherent in human nature to wage wars. And people like you, are just gonna be sitting on your asses, safe in your homes, watching war on the TV while the true heros go out there and fight for their damn countries.
What country do you live in that you would be so unpatriotic anyways? I totally believe in being anti-war but being anti-military in this day and age is absolutely beyond me. If there was another 9/11 I would sure hope we'd have some sort of army protecting us. If there was someone heading planes over here to crash into another building, I'd be more than happy to see them shot down outta the sky. If the person who does the shooting is a "murderer" so be it. That person would have killed thousands more in the long run.
Don't hate the people there to protect you.
QueenAdrock
08-13-2004, 11:17 PM
Kinda like someone joining the fire-brigade thinking they'll only have to rescue kittens and not risk their lives, then. IE stupid.
Pre-9/11 did you really think there was any chance of being sent to war? Hell no. No one saw it coming, at all. Fires happen all the time. If someone entered the fire brigade not expecting fires, yeah, they are stupid. Did you see us in a huge war before 9/11? No, you didn't. No one could have expected it.
People joining the army are thus jsut maintaining the system that forced them into it in the first place.
This is where your credibility goes down the toilet. You're probably one of those people who believe that by voting third party, that actually means something. Yeah, it would in numbers - but it's never going to happen. Pray for anarchy all you want - no one in our society is going to go for that radical thinking. Thus me being rational, and saying we should have an army for when we need it, and you saying "no one should have an army". Yeah, true. No one should be forced to kill. Everyone should live in peace and harmony and hold hands and sing Kumbaya. I'm with you on that one. But here, in the reality world, people are war-waging, money-grubbing assholes. Enjoy your stay.
He compromised his ethics for an ideal, and he paid the price. I'd say he was brave, but not because he put his life in danger. I'd say what made him, and other soldiers, "brave" is that they are willing to sacrifice their principles (and thus sacrifice their peace of mind / wellbeing of conscience) for an ideal that they believed in.
So let me get this straight. You go and call one of my good friends stupid for signing up for the army, yet you make off like your grandfather is someone sooo great because he fought for something he believed in. He signed up for the army too. He killed people. According to you, he's just as big of a "monster" as the rest of the murderers you'll find. It doesn't matter why you kill, if you kill, you're a monster, right?
Yeah, how about this. My friend believed in our country. He believed that the President would never send him to a bullshit war. He believed that he would only be used if he absolutely needed to be. And how about this? He's going to be drafted. He doesn't want to go to the war. He doesn't want to go to prison either because -he has a FAMILY. He'd rather go to Iraq, so they can have health benefits and money sent back to them. What an asshole, right?
I see a lot of your points, but FYI you come off as a huge asshole. My friends are over there, and they're fighting for their families benefits, and so other assholes don't have to. They're afraid. The US needs an army, regardless of where it is deployed. I'd like to see you drafted, deny it, and sent to prison. After a day of being ass-raped as a chickenhawk, you just may rethink it.
NakedMoleRat
08-14-2004, 12:48 AM
I agree with Queen Adrock here.
I Myself Am against all War except the wars that were Justified(The Civil War, WW II, etc) but generalizing all Soldiers is just as stupid as Generalizing all people within a race or Religion. Stereotypes are NEVER accurate. Believe it or Not, there are people who get out of High school who Cannot go to College(because of Financial Reasons) and cannot get a well paying Job(Partly due to the Fact that they Couldnt go to College) so basically the choice is Work at the Local burger King and get paid minimum wage or join the army and recieve an education plus get paid, I myself would never Join the Army, but i can Understand Some who are forced to. A lot of people join thinking they are just going to Travel the world.
And ACE, As awful and unfair the Iraqi War is, it is BULLSHIT when you say that you would not Be Scared if you were a Soldier there. I Myself Would Crap and pee My pants plus Vomit at the Sight of ANY group of People who are Shooting At me, and I'm sure you would also. I usually Agree with your points but I beg to Differ on this one.
Support the Troops by not sending them to unjust Wars.
PEACE
D_Raay
08-14-2004, 02:47 AM
Chickenhawks get ass raped?!
Hate to say it QA but Ace is right. Government by the people etc. etc.
EN[i]GMA
08-14-2004, 06:08 AM
I have to agree with Ace. Violence begats more violence. If you can't see that; your not looking. The day a war finally "fixes" the world and brings peace is the day black turns to white. It will NEVER happen.
WW2 wasn't a "just" war. Ending it was the correct thing to do, but it wasn't just. There was nothing "just" about it.
It comes down to how you look at things. In the short term, it appears like having an army will make us safer. Having an army will kill the bad guys. But it won't. For 4000 years it hasn't. It never will. Armies are only good at fighting. Fighting other armies. Don't you see the circular logic here? It goes nowhere and it never will.
ASsman
08-14-2004, 08:58 AM
God, not this again. As for armies.... it's kind of like the whole gun argument ( remember on the simpsons), all those dead cowboys had guns and they took over the town because no one else did.
Ace42
08-14-2004, 11:06 AM
Yes. America does think that way. Wonder why we went after Iraq and not, say, North Korea?
If that isn't an argument for America not deserving to have an army, I do not know what is. It certainly is a definition of cowardice.
To still stand up to that is called BRAVERY.
How is simply doing what you are obliged to do in a situation "brave" ? Anyone who was drafted and shipped over against their will would have to do that. Anyone who suddenly awoke from a coma and was there would have to do that. Doing what you have to do, and having no choice in the matter, is not "brave." You put anyone in that situation, and they'd do exactly the same. That isn't "brave," that's ordinary.
Uneducated hicks, huh. Yeah. John Kerry, with a degree from Yale, someone who most likely has a better educational background than YOU went to war. Don't stereotype these people. A lot of the time, they are intelligent people with their own minds.
I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of the people in any army are not as qualified as me. Also note I used in my previous posts the qualifier "mostly" - suggesting there are exceptions. It does not make my argument invalid. You yourself said they had "no other options" and joined the army "to get an education" - so either they don't need an education (as they have one already) and your point is moot, or they are uneducated. Make up your mind.
No one said they were better. We said simply to support the people who wage the war that other people are too pussy to do.
But you did though. You both singled them out as being "special" - how is signing up not expecting a war (something you have said again and again) and then being forced to fight one "brave" - they have no choice in the matter according to you. Either they make a choice to go to war and kill people, in which case they could conceivably be given the epithet "brave" - or they get dragged in and forced to, in which case they are not "brave." Again, make up your mind.
That's the reason why communism wouldn't work. If everyone got the same thing - same money, education, health care - what incentive is it to be a janitor? What incentive would you have to be a garbageman, or *gasp* a soldier?
Yep, communism wouldn't work. The red's never had a Red Army did they? Or garbage men, or any occupations at all except pornstars, actors and proffesional games designers. Communism worked for the best part of a cenutry, and is still working in some parts of the world. Remember, it worked whilst having a series of derranged socio-paths in charge, and was engaged in a cold war with a super-power. All of this was from a country (Russia) that was suffering mass starvation at its inception, was substantially larger than NA, and yet had inferior material wealth, was locked in freezing cold arctic temperatures for much of its northern reaches, and was totally insulated from trading with the outside world. If we want to get into a debate about the merits of communism where it will not totally subvert the thread, I am all too kean, as I love educating Americans about how communism *actually* works. Rather than the "commie-pinko scum" argument commonly proponed by NY taxi drivers.
So, you're saying we should have no army, correct? You say that these people are murderous people who are evil. So what happens in WW3? Hmm? Don't think it's gonna happen? It will. It's inherent in human nature to wage wars. And people like you, are just gonna be sitting on your asses, safe in your homes, watching war on the TV while the true heros go out there and fight for their damn countries.
See, this is where you are totally wrong. If you argued with facts rather than indoctrination, you might actually see it from the other side of the fence. It is NOT in human nature to wage wars. If you do some research from declassified and freely available military records (and this has been found to be true the world over) you'll know that all normal humans (those without psychopathic tendancies) have a natural mental block preventing them from taking another human life. More specifically it is triggered by looking into a victim's eyes. It is a biological imperative that can be seen in ALL animals, who posture and roar and butt antlers, but NEVER ACTUALLY KILL each other. In early armed conflicts, the "kill rate" of soldiers was very low. Compared to training and target shooting, a small fraction (depending on the war and army it varies slightly) about 10% - by WW2 it barely made 50% in supposedly "experienced troops"
Then a chap called Skinner said that he could solve this problem by his method called "Operant Conditioning" - where training an uncontrollable reflex reaction to respond to a stimulus can over-ride will power. All modern armies have adopted this, and hence their "kill rate" is well over 80% (current estimates put the US army in the high 90s)
So, someone joins the army a nice normal human being, and leaves it being "tuned" to override basic "human nature" as you put it and kill. The army does that to him. Furthermore, because this reaction is not willful, it overrides the mind, the vast majorities of people who kill like this "on instinct" are plagued for the REST OF THEIR LIVES with nightmares and other psychological trauma. The human psyche is NOT designed to kill each other. Doing so is *unnatural*
People like *me* are not going to be sitting safe. People like me are going to be shot in cold blood by an inhuman killing machine manufactured by governments like yours. And I am willing to accept that price in order to avoid becoming like them.
What country do you live in that you would be so unpatriotic anyways? I totally believe in being anti-war but being anti-military in this day and age is absolutely beyond me. If there was another 9/11 I would sure hope we'd have some sort of army protecting us.
Your army brought about Sept 11th and was powerless to prevent it. It is precisely your country's uncontrolled and willful use of the army that has created such resentment, and this is why "cowardly" <hah> suicide bombers have to develop other methods for fighting. Your army can't protect you, and it won't. All it does is make things worse. It didn't protect you from Anthrax through the mail, did it? It won't protect you from a suitcase nuke, dirty bomb, viral epidemic, or any other of these "urban terrors" that your government claims it is working against. Armies are anachronistic, and they create the need for them.
If there was someone heading planes over here to crash into another building, I'd be more than happy to see them shot down outta the sky. If the person who does the shooting is a "murderer" so be it. That person would have killed thousands more in the long run.
Except it won't happen like that. Your country didn't get any warning about the planes going down, certainly not enough to scramble fighters. They won't get any warning about the mysterious individual smuggling a suitcase into the country, which then levels one of your major cities. They won't have any bullets to fire at your own people who don't even know they are infected with a killer bacteria. Having a powerful army just raises the steaks.
Don't hate the people there to protect you.
They do not protect me. I can make up my own mind about the risks I am willing to take and how I live my life. I'm not some baby that needs mollycoddling and telling me "what's best for me" by a bunch of morons in suits who are given millions.
I'd rather go without money, freedom, life than live knowing it was STOLEN from someone else by a thug with a gun, a cruise missile, whatever.
GregBrady
08-14-2004, 11:07 AM
My friend joined the army in August 2001, when there was no threat of any war. He believed he would just go to training, and be in the reserves, and never be called out. He believed that he wouldn't be sent anywhere because the US wasn't at war. He had no chance of killing anyone at that point. Which is why he joined. And like I said, no good-paying jobs in our area. He wouldn't be able to support himself otherwise.
I agree with what you've said and don't think others know unless they've seen it on both ends!
It's a FACT and widely known that the Marine Corp. and The US Army leads young people to think it's better than it is. There's a FALSE sence of hope! Both branches of the service pray on the poor! The recruiters are in the poor areas and recruit mainly poor, uneducated young adults...IT'S A FACT!
They don't go to the educated, rich areas because those young adults can see through the BULLSHIT!
Ace42
08-14-2004, 11:27 AM
Pre-9/11 did you really think there was any chance of being sent to war? Hell no. No one saw it coming, at all.
YOU didn't see it coming. *I* did, and many others did. Not on that day in that way, but the fact of the matter is, you go around kicking hornets nests, you expect to be stung. Your country has had it coming for a LONG LONG time. It has pissed off numerous nations the world over, and it was just a matter of time before someone tried to "settle the score" - if you didn't see it coming, you had your head in the sand.
This is where your credibility goes down the toilet. You're probably one of those people who believe that by voting third party, that actually means something. Yeah, it would in numbers - but it's never going to happen.
"In numbers" - and they'll never have the numbers because the majority of people are evil scumbags? Your country has been divided and conquered by your own government. It's pathetic. It's people like you saying "3rd party is a waste, don't bother" that mean it can never work. You are making it happen, not "some other people elsewhere" but you.
You need to think big. Think outside the box. Progress has never been maed by people saying "oh, it'll never happen, it's a daydream" - infact it's only been hampered by them. It is time you get with the program. I'd rather work for an ideal that seems impossible but is right, than work for a compromise solution which is unequitable and quite possibly doomed to failure too.
Thus me being rational, and saying we should have an army for when we need it, and you saying "no one should have an army". Yeah, true. No one should be forced to kill. Everyone should live in peace and harmony and hold hands and sing Kumbaya. I'm with you on that one. But here, in the reality world, people are war-waging, money-grubbing assholes. Enjoy your stay.
Reality is what you make it. "Here in reality, you can't break the sound barrier, you're insides will flip." "Here in reality, walking on the moon is a daydream!" "Here in reality, a country without a king is impossible!"
If that is your reality, count me out. You live with the money-grubbing assholes and wars when I am building utopia with my sweat blood and tears. That is something worth fighting and dying for. Not just trying to keep your weak cancer-ridden coughing country going on as it has been for a few more years.
So let me get this straight. You go and call one of my good friends stupid for signing up for the army, yet you make off like your grandfather is someone sooo great because he fought for something he believed in. He signed up for the army too. He killed people. According to you, he's just as big of a "monster" as the rest of the murderers you'll find. It doesn't matter why you kill, if you kill, you're a monster, right?
Exactly, I don't recall saying he was not a murderer, or that he should've done it. There is a distinction - he joined to fight a war, not joined and then had to fight a war. But, irregardless, I still maintain war is wrong. The only reason you think it was so "good" and "justified" is because we won. If all those lives had been lost, and because of it your people suffered even MORE at the hands of a vengeful oppressor, then how "justified" would it have been? You, like so many of your country men, are so far away from a TRUE war (and with modern technology, 'true wars' are further and further away. Like a missile homing on an arab which you only see through the telescreen) it's all "Our boys over there, hip hip hooray" - if your country had been bombed (and Pearl Harbour does not count) then perhaps you'd not be so quick to say "War is not a bad thing"
Yeah, how about this. My friend believed in our country. He believed that the President would never send him to a bullshit war.
And that makes him *not stupid* ? Maybe me spotting the logicial error in that makes me a genius? If so, and your friend is not a naive fool, perhaps you should bow to my opinion on this. Afterall, you didn't see Sept 11th coming. It speaks volumes about your insight into the situation.
He believed that he would only be used if he absolutely needed to be. And how about this? He's going to be drafted. He doesn't want to go to the war. He doesn't want to go to prison either because -he has a FAMILY. He'd rather go to Iraq, so they can have health benefits and money sent back to them. What an asshole, right?
He is a soldier, he will kill another soldier just like him, who was goingto be drafted jsut like him, and whose family will not have a provider just like him. Now, which is better - him being in prison for draft dodging, or him being killed and leaving his son without a father? What about him killing another family, and leaving THEM without a father? It is just selfish to say "my family deserves a father figure more than their's does" And that is ammoral and inhuman. If everyone chose to suffer a little, rather than making others suffer a lot, there would be NO suffering. But people insist that they deserve MORE than everyone else, so they take and take, and say "hey, it's a dog eat dog world, I'm justified" - it's only dog eat dog because of people like you.
I see a lot of your points, but FYI you come off as a huge asshole. Being right and being popular are often mutually exclusive.
My friends are over there, and they're fighting for their families benefits, and so other assholes don't have to.
Tada "they are fighting for money" - and I have already refuted "so others don't have to"
They're afraid. The US needs an army, regardless of where it is deployed. I'd like to see you drafted, deny it, and sent to prison. After a day of being ass-raped as a chickenhawk, you just may rethink it.
No, I wouldn't. It's called "having the courage of your convictions" - something that is NOT cowardly, and thus totally alien to sheeple. If me suffering incarceration for a bit prevents people suffering mortal wounds, the death of a family member, untold hard-ship and tragedy... Well I think that is a fair price to pay. You think these soldiers are so brave because they are willing to suffer for their families? Well, I am willing to suffer for other people's families. The difference is I don't go around murdering people.
QueenAdrock
08-14-2004, 11:51 AM
I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of the people in any army are not as qualified as me. Also note I used in my previous posts the qualifier "mostly" - suggesting there are exceptions. It does not make my argument invalid. You yourself said they had "no other options" and joined the army "to get an education" - so either they don't need an education (as they have one already) and your point is moot, or they are uneducated. Make up your mind.
Actually, I said they'd join so they'd have enough money for college. That doesn't mean they're uneducated. People with high school diplomas are not uneducated hicks. They need a HIGHER education in order to get an actual job.
But you did though. You both singled them out as being "special" - how is signing up not expecting a war (something you have said again and again) and then being forced to fight one "brave" - they have no choice in the matter according to you. Either they make a choice to go to war and kill people, in which case they could conceivably be given the epithet "brave" - or they get dragged in and forced to, in which case they are not "brave." Again, make up your mind.
Well, like YOU'VE said, they could have easily run away and dodged going, gone to prison. However, by them not chickening out, they are considered brave. According to you, everyone has a choice whether or not they could fight. So, that's why they're brave.
Yep, communism wouldn't work. The red's never had a Red Army did they?
SO sorry. I meant Marxism. :rolleyes:
So in conclusion, if you join an army that America needs, you're evil. You either want to kill people, or you're a coward who wants to support his family. When you're sent over you're not brave, you're just a tool. I feel sorry for you.
Blah blah. I'm not even going through half the stuff you say. It's hippie "think outside the box" bullshit, and unfortunately, I have things to do since it's Saturday.
It all comes down to two different perspectives: You think that America doesn't need an army, I do. We have two different ideas of how the world works, you think outside the box, I think in. I don't really care. I remember thinking "outside the box" when I was like, 15. Then after struggling for years to get people to think differently, I thought, fuck that. It won't happen. So I try on a smaller scale to make a difference, and actually have had results.
So here's my final thought: You obviously don't live in America. You obviously don't come upon these people everyday. Maybe you have faith in humanity, I do not. Like I said, I live in a reality world, where democrats and republicans are elected to office. I live in a world full of wars and hate. I believe that you can make a difference by pushing gently towards a goal, bit by bit. I don't believe that you can get anywhere by just saying "Disband the army! No more wars!" That's not gonna happen. There are plenty of assholes who love this war, we're not all sheep following our government. Power in numbers DOESN'T work in America, because people over here are rifle-loving, suv-driving assholes. Trying to change half of the country's minds on not waging wars, on being pacifist and whatnot- ain't gonna happen. That's why I try to do things on a small scale.
You can't change the world, but you can make a dent.
Ace42
08-14-2004, 01:14 PM
Actually, I said they'd join so they'd have enough money for college. That doesn't mean they're uneducated. People with high school diplomas are not uneducated hicks. They need a HIGHER education in order to get an actual job.
Obviously we have two different views about what constitutes "educated."
Well, like YOU'VE said, they could have easily run away and dodged going, gone to prison. However, by them not chickening out, they are considered brave. According to you, everyone has a choice whether or not they could fight. So, that's why they're brave.
So you are capitulating then? You concur that everyone joining the army is voluntarily choosing to sign up to a profession where they are required to kill another human being for money? If so, it still doesn't make them quantifiably "braver" than a bank-robber who faces armed security guards.
SO sorry. I meant Marxism.
From this I deduce your familiarity with the tenets of communism are passing and vague, like most Americans.
So in conclusion, if you join an army that America needs, you're evil. You either want to kill people, or you're a coward who wants to support his family. When you're sent over you're not brave, you're just a tool. I feel sorry for you.
You feel sorry for me? I'm not the one who is "forced" to kill people to support his family or get an education. Oh wait, you already recanted that. And America only "needs" an army because it created that need. Like a mugger "needs" a gun. And I feel sorry for anyone who equates bravery with doing what you are told.
Blah blah. I'm not even going through half the stuff you say. It's hippie "think outside the box" bullshit
Says the man who can't think outside the box.
Then after struggling for years to get people to think differently, I thought, fuck that. It won't happen. So I try on a smaller scale to make a difference, and actually have had results.
See, you've given up striving for something better already. And you have the nerve to cast dispersions on *my* bravery because I don't want to kill? How patriotic... "We can't achieve it, so let's not bother."
So here's my final thought: You obviously don't live in America. You obviously don't come upon these people everyday. Maybe you have faith in humanity, I do not. Like I said, I live in a reality world, where democrats and republicans are elected to office.
Yeah I don't live in America. However, I do live in a real world. And do you know why I have faith in humanity, and don't have to join the army and kill people to get an education? Because in my country people fight social injustice instead of giving up and waving a flag. It isn't a pipe-dream, or if it is, me and my country-men are living it. No, it's not perfect, that's why people like me work for better. And by work, I don't mean join the army, or buy into the capitalist machine.
I don't believe that you can get anywhere by just saying "Disband the army! No more wars!" That's not gonna happen.
It has worked and does work the world over.
Power in numbers DOESN'T work in America, because people over here are rifle-loving, suv-driving assholes. Trying to change half of the country's minds on not waging wars, on being pacifist and whatnot- ain't gonna happen. That's why I try to do things on a small scale.
You can't change the world, but you can make a dent.
"Power in numbers doesn't work in America" - finally an American who admits their country is one of the least "free and democratic" of the first-world nations.
And you can change the world, it happens every day. It just takes the right dream, and the right person to make it a reality. The US founding fathers that you all have such reverance for (well some of you prolly don't care) weren't super-men. Their whole premiss was that men are equal and deserve equal opportunities. They made the dream a reality, and so can anyone. Even if you have to suffer for it, even if you have to die for it, some things are worth fighting for, and I'd say if you think that is "safety" then I'd say considering the "real world" that you've got your priorities wrong.
It's sad, very sad that you have already lost faith in what you know is right... No wonder your country is so fucked up - you people won't even fight for what is right... With all your guns, and patriotism, and loud brash posturing and imperialist rhetoric, it all boils down to disenfranchised capitalist slaves who feel too impotent to make things better.
As I said above, there is someone more needy of your pity than me, check a mirror.
mcaismyhero
08-14-2004, 01:30 PM
It has worked and does work the world over.
Just curious-I don't want to get into this argument right now-but where exactly has disbanding the army worked?
Ace42
08-14-2004, 01:45 PM
Just curious-I don't want to get into this argument right now-but where exactly has disbanding the army worked?
Venice during the renaissance had no standing army (although it did have a small urban militia) and it didn't get invaded. Birthplace of capitalism too curiously. By your argument, simply having an army isn't enough, it has to be as strong as or stronger than everyone elses. This is not the case, as the world isn't full of "roughly equal armies" and hasn't condensed into annex's of the world's strongest army.
QueenAdrock
08-14-2004, 02:01 PM
Venice during the Renaissance. One city, hundreds of years ago. I guess we should all do it. And that bank robber analogy, well, bank robbers do it for their own selfish purposes. I don't think our troops are selfish; I think they're selfless. But that's where you and I differ.
As for "We can't achieve it, so let's not bother." I try and succeed at small grassroots efforts. We can't achieve overthrowing the government. We CAN achieve changing parts of the government for the better. We can't achieve perfection, but we can achieve something in the middle. And that's what I go for, and that's what I get.
And yeah, I CAN think outside the box. I choose not to because when I have before, it has gotten me nowhere.
My two cents.
Auton
08-14-2004, 02:22 PM
QueenAdrock wins.
Sorry, but being Anti-everything is kind of stupid
EN[i]GMA
08-14-2004, 04:01 PM
Anti-everything. He's obviously pro-something lest he wouldn't be talking about ideals like humanity. He's not a Nihilist.
DroppinScience
08-14-2004, 04:33 PM
If a stranger shot and killed someone you loved because somebody else told the stranger the person you loved had a gun but was wrong, would you hold the stranger accountable?
Think about it before asking me "uhhh...what's that got to do with anything?"
Obviously you're making a parallel to Saddam and his WMDs (or lack thereof). It's an interesting parallel but it's disengenious since nobody loves Saddam.
And Ace, come on, don't be hating on soldiers. They're just trying to make their way in this world and not everyone is out to kill foreigners or bullshit like that. I know someone who's finishing up his training in the infantry (Canadian Army, granted, but similar sentiment) and he's no nutjob who wants to kill. It's the system that creates such injustices (on both sides). Like Kennedy said, we all inhabit this world, breathe the same air, cherish our future, cherish our children's future, etc. It's the war that's bad, not soldiers.
ASsman
08-14-2004, 05:01 PM
What are guns for then? If not for killing? Maybe injuring politely? Also have you read the entire thread or just parts of it?
Ace42
08-14-2004, 05:49 PM
And Ace, come on, don't be hating on soldiers. They're just trying to make their way in this world and not everyone is out to kill foreigners or bullshit like that.
Soldier
# One who serves in an army.
# An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer.
Army
# A large body of people organized and trained for land warfare.
# often Army The entire military land forces of a country.
A soldier is part of an army, and army exists for war. Are you trying to tell me wars are *not* a process of killing?
By their very definitions, soldiers kill. Them "making their way in the world" is via a process where they are expected to (even if they are too stupid / naive to expect to) kill other people.
You want me to buy "It's ok, because it's a war!" ?!? pshaw.
Arbitrary words like "enemy" or "patriotism" or "duty" don't change anything.
... patriotism, duty, love, freedom ... - and honour - all the traditional sophistries for waging wars of expansion and self-interest, set to patriotic hymns... Wars are fought for oil wells and coaling stations; for control of the Dardanelles or the Suez Canal; for colonial pickings to buy cheap in and conquered markets to sell dear in. War is capitalism with the gloves off and many who go to war know it but they go to war because they don't want to be a hero. It takes courage to sit down and be counted.
- Tom Stoppard, Travesties
DroppinScience
08-14-2004, 08:16 PM
You want me to buy "It's ok, because it's a war!" ?!? pshaw.
[/i]
No. I'm saying if you have a problem with the war, etc. blaim the policymakers, not the soldiers.
You're painting with far too broad of brush strokes here.
D_Raay
08-15-2004, 12:01 AM
Man my head hurts after reading this thread :D
Actually I think Ace means that the problem can only be addressed at the root. Namely the actual soldiers not enlisting in the first place for whatever reason. Sure they would try to draft us but if we collectively refused what choice would they have? They certainly wouldn't send their own sons and daughters out with a gun to kill some brown folks. It's a damn shame so many in this country just go on with their everday self absorbed bullshit while so many die around them and around the world. Well, that's my humble opinion anyway. Where are you from Ace? I mean other than existenz of course, just curious.
Ace42
08-15-2004, 12:27 AM
I'm from the UK.
A proverb, which people can buy into or not at their discretion goes as follows: All it takes for the devil to prosper is for good people to stand by and do nothing.
Soldiers enlisting are not merely "standing by" but they are helping him with his load. Not that I believe in a personification of evil necessarily, but I think the point stands.
travesty
08-15-2004, 11:02 AM
I have friends in the army, who were shipped out involuntarily,
Huh? When did the draft get re-instated? I think that if you VOLUNTEER for MILITARY service, you are consenting to go to war for your country. You might not like it, or agree with it, but c'mon now.
travesty
08-15-2004, 11:21 AM
It's a FACT and widely known that the Marine Corp. and The US Army leads young people to think it's better than it is. There's a FALSE sence of hope! Both branches of the service pray on the poor! The recruiters are in the poor areas and recruit mainly poor, uneducated young adults...IT'S A FACT!
They don't go to the educated, rich areas because those young adults can see through the BULLSHIT!
If you were recruiting for a $17,000 a year entry level, unskilled job, where would you spend your time? They don't go to the "educated, rich areas" because those people aren't going to take such a low paying job. Common sense to me.
travesty
08-15-2004, 11:46 AM
And to Ace... I do agree with many of your points regarding pacifism and personal ideals relating to military service, however I think it is mighty brazen of you to criticize the U.S. so vehemently when your country has not suffered such a terrible terrorist attack on your soil (yet) AND the UK adopts very similar foriegn policies as the US. The UK's history of Imperialism/Colonialism is astonishing, what happened in India? I just think you can tone down the line by line dismantling of and crticizing of everything an "American" posts here, kettle.
There You have at least three good lines in this post to spend time rebutting. I hope it doesn't take too much time away from all of your world changing efforts.
mcaismyhero
08-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Huh? When did the draft get re-instated? I think that if you VOLUNTEER for MILITARY service, you are consenting to go to war for your country. You might not like it, or agree with it, but c'mon now.
Yeah. I agree that it is stupid to enlist in the military and be puzzled when you are called up to fight. They VOLUNTEER for this. That is their JOB. You see so many parents of people who died in the war and they are complaining. I mean, I feel sorry for them, their kid or whoever has died, but it isn't like they were kidnapped from their houses in the dead of night and dragged to Iraq. I'm talking about the ones who are bitter. Their kid signed up for it and it is their responsiblity to serve out their tour and finish what they started.
Ace42
08-15-2004, 12:05 PM
And to Ace... I do agree with many of your points regarding pacifism and personal ideals relating to military service, however I think it is mighty brazen of you to criticize the U.S. so vehemently when your country has not suffered such a terrible terrorist attack on your soil (yet) AND the UK adopts very similar foriegn policies as the US. The UK's history of Imperialism/Colonialism is astonishing, what happened in India? I just think you can tone down the line by line dismantling of and crticizing of everything an "American" posts here, kettle.
Not suffered such a terrorist attack? Hello, haven't you heard of the IRA?!? Oh, hang on, they were in large part funded by US interests, so I guess they don't count. And England's imperialistic past occured before WW1, and ended shortly after WW2. The last of the commonwealth territories being turned over in the 60s IIRC (please feel free to add amendations) - that is quite different to doing it here and now.
Furthermore, I am equally critical of my own country - and have done a lot to prevent it getting worse. I have been protesting against this war and reprisals ever since people started saying "we gotta bomb them!" on 9/11 and as soon as Uncle Tony got on board, I was saying "oh god, what is he getting us into?!?"
I have been in frequent correspondance with my MP over the matter, and also been incontact with Jack Straw's office (that being the Foreign Office, thus that related to the running of wars and so on)
I have appeared on radio, gone on marches, and taken every opportunity to bring to light just how immoral this war actually is. My comments have made their way onto BBC breakfast news.
It is not a case of Pot calling the Kettle Black, it is a case of me criticising the US in a thread about the US following a US president into the war.
When I said "Armies are bad, Hmmkay" - I did NOT mean 'excepting the British Army'
Nor do I think US soldiers are any worse (morally) than British soldiers.
What happened in India is that after a policy of non-violent protest and civil disobediance, the UK voluntarily and without a war, turned over the country to the people of India, who promptly chose it as an opportune to start massive race wars ending up in the partition of the country into Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc etc. Read "Midnight's Children" by Salman Rushdie for more information on the subject, as well as a stonking good story.
I dismantle everyone's posts equally, it's called "sound debating practice" and is a function of clarity and precision. If you want I can provide links to predominantly UK websites where I dress down their ignorance / misconceptions / factual innaccuracies / political bias in exactly the same manner.
travesty
08-15-2004, 12:16 PM
Actually a very good rebuttal Ace and I appreciate the lack of a condescending tone that I usually feel from some of your others. Don't get me wrong, your posts are certainly some of the more enlightening on this site and I do enjoy your input.
ASsman
08-15-2004, 02:30 PM
Gmsisko's dog likes my input !
OH! LOW BLOW!
Grow up assman.. GOD
D_Raay
08-16-2004, 02:09 AM
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist"
Whois
08-16-2004, 04:06 PM
You're fuckin' right I'm biased. My friend had NO options coming out of high school, and joined the army.
Sorry, but there are always other choices.
I don't see why you think all the army is a bunch of gung-ho 'let's go kill them' people.
"What makes the grass grow?"
"THE BLOOD DRILL SERGEANT, THE BLOOD!"
Bayonet training - Fort Jackson S.C.
Whois
08-16-2004, 04:13 PM
Don't hate the people there to protect you.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....that was funny.
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