so i got my voter registration card the other day

[little j]

and i told my parents *v.conservative republicans* and they said "well i hope you're voting for bush" and i didn't say anything.
it was a most awkward silence.

[ASsman]

and i told my parents *v.conservative republicans*
V = Vote?

"well i hope you're voting for bush"
Huh?

[little j]

thanks montygirl

[adam_f]

I'm a registered republican. Now, the million dollar question.

Who gives a shit?

[TheWedge]

Ah what the heck vote Kerry, we need less millitary and higher taxes.

No no fuckbucket. Vote Boosh. We need more animosity towards us as a nation, more tax breaks for the rich, more freedom to rape the environment, less funding for education programs, etc.
Besides, I like listening to my president speak and then think, "gee, I'm probably smarter than this guy". It's very reassuring.

[ChrisLove]

Ah what the heck vote Kerry, we need less millitary and higher taxes.

Thats probably the most accurate thing you have ever posted! The military thing is somewhat subjective but it is highly probable that the US military is inefficienctly large. There is no doubt that higher taxes are required but you will get that with either candidate, someone has to pay for Bush's economic policy - I wonder who?

[ChrisLove]

And Little J....

Good luck with the parent thing, perhaps you can convert them or just trick them into not voting (y)

[ASsman]

Ah what the heck vote Kerry, we need less millitary and higher taxes.
We need MORE guns, more nukes. And a bigger fucking deficit....

[baltogrl71]

and i told my parents *v.conservative republicans* and they said "well i hope you're voting for bush" and i didn't say anything.
it was a most awkward silence.
word to the wise don't get into political discussions with your parents, every time my dad and i start I remember when I was little and my dad wouldn't talk to his parents for like months because some how they got on the political topoic and they would get into these huge fights, so I just change the subject, and now my dad and I never argue.my daughter on the other hand has not figured this out but its good when your young it inspires her to go find out more about whats going on.

[EN[i]GMA]

I have cool parents in that regard. Dad always like to play the scare-mongering card though. Sort of denegrates any meaningful arguements when you start talking of Armegedon.

[Blighty]

Higher taxes? He's just rolling back the tax cuts for assholes who make more than $200,000 a year.

You must hate America since you are against taxes so much. The tax money that you don't want to give up puts food on the tables of the familes with soldiers at war.

Anti-tax = anti-America? Who are you? George Bush? The world isn't black and white. There are many sides to an argument.

And Jess, follow your heart. If your parents can't handle that then fuck 'em. ;)

[Funkaloyd]

I *think* that Toast was just playing with Gmsisko logic.

[adam_f]

I love how this forum always gets so pissed when someone doesn't agree with them.

I would say 98% of us know who we're voting for and nothing can change our minds.

Let it go. Jesus.

[jegtar]

Thats probably the most accurate thing you have ever posted! The military thing is somewhat subjective but it is highly probable that the US military is inefficienctly large. There is no doubt that higher taxes are required but you will get that with either candidate, someone has to pay for Bush's economic policy - I wonder who?

Kerry says he wants a larger military.

[jegtar]

and i told my parents *v.conservative republicans* and they said "well i hope you're voting for bush" and i didn't say anything.
it was a most awkward silence.


That sucks, it is almost like your vote doesn't count because your own family are cancelling it out

[travesty]

Higher taxes? He's just rolling back the tax cuts for assholes who make more than $200,000 a year.

So I'm an asshole because I paid my own way through college, started my own business, now employ and PAY for health, dental and various other benefits for 13 other Americans, out of MY money no less AND I am still able to take home more than $200,000/year!

FUCK YOU! You're an asshole, and obviously not a very successful one if you are pissed at people like me just because of my bank account. You don't even know me. Or maybe you're one of the proud who doesn't even aspire to be an "asshole" like me, just what our country needs more loudmouthed, whining slackers!

Piss Off! I already pay enough taxes to support douchebags like you who think it is "noble" to make $15k a year in some shitty job and get most of your taxes back in April. You then have the balls to sit back and think you have enough insight to decide how much MORE taxes I need to pay to make up for your slack! I don't even use the social programs that I'm paying for, that's the real pisser. Why can't I get food stamps... I know I've paid for a lot of them. (All I really want is my company logo on the bomb that finally finds Osama!)

You make me sick you milque-toast bedwetter. Grow some balls, grow a spine get some ambition. Just do me a favor, the first year that your 1040 shows $200,000 plus, call me and remind me how you didn't work hard enough for it, how easy it was, how you took no personal risk and that in the end you really wish the gov would take more of it, because they are better at deciding where it should go than you are.

[paulk]

^ (y) (y) (y) (y)

Word to your mother, Travesty.

[Manji]

Vote for who you feel is most qualified.
My only real opinion on the matter is that you give all candidates a chance.
Do your homework on each one look at their websites, read their agendas, read their solutions and promises and make your vote educated and informed. Otherwise you only screw yourself in the long run. Don't let anyone tell you who to vote for, you make the choice.
Good luck and welcome to the voting public...

[ChrisLove]

So I'm an asshole because I paid my own way through college, started my own business, now employ and PAY for health, dental and various other benefits for 13 other Americans, out of MY money no less AND I am still able to take home more than $200,000/year!

FUCK YOU! You're an asshole, and obviously not a very successful one if you are pissed at people like me just because of my bank account. You don't even know me. Or maybe you're one of the proud who doesn't even aspire to be an "asshole" like me, just what our country needs more loudmouthed, whining slackers!

Piss Off! I already pay enough taxes to support douchebags like you who think it is "noble" to make $15k a year in some shitty job and get most of your taxes back in April. You then have the balls to sit back and think you have enough insight to decide how much MORE taxes I need to pay to make up for your slack! I don't even use the social programs that I'm paying for, that's the real pisser. Why can't I get food stamps... I know I've paid for a lot of them. (All I really want is my company logo on the bomb that finally finds Osama!)

You make me sick you milque-toast bedwetter. Grow some balls, grow a spine get some ambition. Just do me a favor, the first year that your 1040 shows $200,000 plus, call me and remind me how you didn't work hard enough for it, how easy it was, how you took no personal risk and that in the end you really wish the gov would take more of it, because they are better at deciding where it should go than you are.

(y) (y)

[paulk]

What do you do, Mr. Toast?

[Ace42]

So I'm an asshole because I paid my own way through college, started my own business, now employ and PAY for health, dental and various other benefits for 13 other Americans, out of MY money no less AND I am still able to take home more than $200,000/year!

How did you come to the figure of "13 other Americans" ? Did you factor in expenditure for the policing you get, fire-service, road-taxing? Various admin costs? How much of the taxes you pay actually goes into benefit? Oh, you don't USE the police or the fire-dept... Because when a criminal in prison can't rob your house, it doesn't count. Or when they are on call, waiting to sve your life, they may as well be down the beach?


FUCK YOU! You're an asshole, and obviously not a very successful one if you are pissed at people like me just because of my bank account. You don't even know me. Or maybe you're one of the proud who doesn't even aspire to be an "asshole" like me, just what our country needs more loudmouthed, whining slackers!

Yeah, because the amount of money you get must be directly proportional to the difficulty of the work done. That's why labourers doing heavy manual work for long hours in the hot sun get paid so well! Real millionaires...


Piss Off! I already pay enough taxes to support douchebags like you who think it is "noble" to make $15k a year in some shitty job and get most of your taxes back in April. You then have the balls to sit back and think you have enough insight to decide how much MORE taxes I need to pay to make up for your slack! I don't even use the social programs that I'm paying for, that's the real pisser. Why can't I get food stamps... I know I've paid for a lot of them. (All I really want is my company logo on the bomb that finally finds Osama!)

Social programs are what keeps the dispossed and disenfranchised from rising up. You think your extra cash you get from taxes will protect you when a group of rampaging revolutionaries over-throw the state and institute a communist state? First Up Against The Wall. Consider the taxes you pay "protection money" to stop a bunch of insensed "slackers" from taking all your consumer goods from you, plus dignity, plus a helluva lot else.


row some balls, grow a spine get some ambition. Just do me a favor, the first year that your 1040 shows $200,000 plus, call me and remind me how you didn't work hard enough for it, how easy it was, how you took no personal risk and that in the end you really wish the gov would take more of it, because they are better at deciding where it should go than you are.

So actors deserve their money? Really hard for the feckless and untalented cast of Friends to scoop millions per episode? Really unfair that their "hard work" is taxed so that they end up still getting more per hour than a lot of people expect to get in a lifetime? Yeah "get some Ambition" - through hard work and perseverance, you might be lucky enough (fate and low taxes allowing) to accumulate the fraction of the wealth of a texan oil baron, pro-basketball player, or any other nouveu-rich.

You are labouring under the misconception that "your hard work" means squat. What is this fullfilling job you do? What makes you think it's so worthwhile? The fact you get more square pieces of paper than other people who work harder and longer in worse conditions?

I'm not saying the rich are all assholes, but I am saying that they do not deserve the privilidges afforded to them. I find it amusing that anyone in the first world can talk about *working for their money*

You spend all day, every day, every waking moment routing around in garbage for scraps so you can barely afford to feed yourself on rice made with dirty water, and nothing else (like the poor women in India, or children working in mines in Africa) - you do that and THEN tell me you don't deserve to have EVERY LAST PENNY taken from you, and given to the people who work harder.

You are privilidged, and just because you are buying into the "American Dream" (lie) that you can make something of yourself from nothing, and as such you don't owe anyone anything (lie) - doesn't mean anyone else should.

Money is intrinsically worthless. It's an arbitrary unit of power, nothing more. Your money is only worth what OTHER PEOPLE value it at. If everyone in the world were to turn around tomorrow and say "we don't deal in dollars anymore" - guess what, you'd be back on ground 0 with the rest of the "slackers"

Stop posturing about "what you're worth" and how much effort you put in, and how much hard work you have to do. You are among the richest of the richest of the rich, and it's not because of your hard work, it's because you're sitting on the top of a pyramid of misery. And it's people like you who, without knowing it, are kicking down the other people trying to get up. That's how capitalism works, it's dog eat dog and every step you are higher on the pyramid means someone gets pushed lower. "Deserving" does not come into it.

[travesty]

Sorry to disappoint you...but money isn't success. You are in full asshole mode in your little rant....which kinda proved me right.
Anyway, I do not make $200,000 a year and would never fucking want to. I am only 25 and I do anything I want. I make plenty of money to do whatever I want, when I want. I've been to Europe three times in the past three years. Since the Beasties aren't touring anywhere near me, I decided to buy plane tickets to a city of my choosing. I chose to see them in Vancouver and Seattle. I have been able to get press passes to shitloads of amazing concerts. Dickheads like you only wish you could be backstage at the Tibetan Freedom Concert or a Beck/Flaming Lips show.... I have a great house in a fucking fantastic neighborhood with my girlfriend and a puppy. We drink as much Newcastle as we please while grilling choice cuts of thick ribeye steaks 3 or 4 times a week. I have an amazing collection of vinyl records that I play on a battery powered turntable that plays at any angle (I have a "fancy" turntable for the stereo...but the portable gp-3 is better in my opinion). I doubt your life can be better than mine. While you're busy "working hard (for what??)"...I'm enjoying the good life. Remember...the good life doesn't mean blowing money left and right on stupid shit. I love my lifestyle. I do everything and anything I want. I'm never broke and I travel all the time because of the amazing schedule I have. I really don't see money being a factor in keeping me happy. Sorry to hear your life sucks so much travesty.

You are right and I agree that money is not success. In truth your life sounds a lot like mine. I am 33 and I own a construction company. I do travel quite a bit and enjoy big thick ribeyes, although I prefer Budweiser (don't start!)
I may not be Mother Theresa but my crews and I do volunteer time and materials for Habitat for Humanity and a few other locals charities ( I know HH is not a charity). I do not have a huge house, although it is on the water. I drive a 1996 car and all in all you would never know about my finances if you met me at a BB show.

[Ace42]

That's how many people he employs I gather.

Obviously that makes Ronald McDonald several million times the humanitarian then...

[travesty]

Obviously that makes Ronald McDonald several million times the humanitarian then...

Well it's a start isn't it? C'mon with all of the bitching and moaning that goes on in the US about unemployment and how that number is used to guage everything from the economy to a President's success, I personally feel very good that my efforts have allowed me to be somewhat responsible for the success of at least a few other people. Two of my employees make more than me! I take great pride in being an employer and it would truly pain me, if the day ever comes, to lay people off and take thier jobs away.Call me what you will, but also take a look at exactly what you do for others before you cast stones.

As far as it being a "dog eat dog" world, you are right. Learn to be the big dog and you can stop complaining about being eaten. I am sorry that I have learned to play the capitalism game so well. If you don't like the game, don't play...go back to using the barter system or something, good luck with that. But don't piss and moan just 'cause you don't like the rules.

[bilbo]

Somehow, I doubt you're a "$200,000 a year asshole". :rolleyes:
If I am wrong, I offer my deepest regrets, but I think you're probably a $8 an hour fella. :D

[travesty]

You know, I often think about that as I could just as easily be a $7/hour troll. And you know, someday I may be. But for now I guess I'm an asshole. However, I really do try to not take it for granted. Think what you will.

[bilbo]

You know, I often think about that as I could just as easily be a $7/hour troll. And you know, someday I may be. But for now I guess I'm an asshole. However, I really do try to not take it for granted. Think what you will.


I changed the troll terminology, and gave you a raise :D
If I am wrong, congrats on your success.

[Ace42]

As far as it being a "dog eat dog" world, you are right. Learn to be the big dog and you can stop complaining about being eaten. I am sorry that I have learned to play the capitalism game so well. If you don't like the game, don't play...go back to using the barter system or something, good luck with that. But don't piss and moan just 'cause you don't like the rules.

Yeah, me and the other like minded individuals will set up a little country somewhere, and then wait for the US to invade us.

Fact is, peopel can't just dislike the way thigns are done and go it alone, the US won't let them. It can't just live and let live, and never actually has. If I were to set up a community working on the barter system, I think you'd find all the pissing and moaning would come from people fed up with the US stealing their resources (without bartering anything back) poisoning their atmosphere, bombing their citizens, etc.

"learned to play the capitalist game so well" - you think $200,000 a year is "so well" pshaw. You must be really rich! Hah.

"Learn to be a big dog, and then wait until a bigger dog takes a dump on you"

I'd laugh my arse off if a *really* big company totally stole your market share and left you penniless. Then let's see what you have to say about "playing the capitalist game so well"

[travesty]

"Learn to be a big dog, and then wait until a bigger dog takes a dump on you"

I'd laugh my arse off if a *really* big company totally stole your market share and left you penniless. Then let's see what you have to say about "playing the capitalist game so well"

It certainly could happen at anytime, that's part of the risk you take. On the other hand a big company could just as easily buy me out for a tidy sum.
I have three large competitors in my market already and I seem to be doing just fine.....so far.

[Ace42]

It certainly could happen at anytime, that's part of the risk you take. On the other hand a big company could just as easily buy me out for a tidy sum.
I have three large competitors in my market already and I seem to be doing just fine.....so far.

See, you acknowledge it is down to luck, then. It's easy to promote a lottery system when you are benefitting. It doesn't seem such a great system when you get dealt a bad hand through no fault of your own. So you generalising people who have lost out as being just embittered, or don't have ambition, etc was just as unfair as people lumping you in with "$200,000 a year assholes"

[travesty]

See, you acknowledge it is down to luck, then. It's easy to promote a lottery system when you are benefitting. It doesn't seem such a great system when you get dealt a bad hand through no fault of your own. So you generalising people who have lost out as being just embittered, or don't have ambition, etc was just as unfair as people lumping you in with "$200,000 a year assholes"

I believe ambition and hard work breed "luck". However, you are right about the generalizations and I apologize.

[nines]

So I'm an asshole because I paid my own way through college, started my own business, now employ and PAY for health, dental and various other benefits for 13 other Americans, out of MY money no less AND I am still able to take home more than $200,000/year!


How did you come to the figure of "13 other Americans" ? Did you factor in expenditure for the policing you get, fire-service, road-taxing? Various admin costs? How much of the taxes you pay actually goes into benefit? Oh, you don't USE the police or the fire-dept... Because when a criminal in prison can't rob your house, it doesn't count. Or when they are on call, waiting to sve your life, they may as well be down the beach?

Quote:
FUCK YOU! You're an asshole, and obviously not a very successful one if you are pissed at people like me just because of my bank account. You don't even know me. Or maybe you're one of the proud who doesn't even aspire to be an "asshole" like me, just what our country needs more loudmouthed, whining slackers!


Yeah, because the amount of money you get must be directly proportional to the difficulty of the work done. That's why labourers doing heavy manual work for long hours in the hot sun get paid so well! Real millionaires...

Quote:
Piss Off! I already pay enough taxes to support douchebags like you who think it is "noble" to make $15k a year in some shitty job and get most of your taxes back in April. You then have the balls to sit back and think you have enough insight to decide how much MORE taxes I need to pay to make up for your slack! I don't even use the social programs that I'm paying for, that's the real pisser. Why can't I get food stamps... I know I've paid for a lot of them. (All I really want is my company logo on the bomb that finally finds Osama!)


Social programs are what keeps the dispossed and disenfranchised from rising up. You think your extra cash you get from taxes will protect you when a group of rampaging revolutionaries over-throw the state and institute a communist state? First Up Against The Wall. Consider the taxes you pay "protection money" to stop a bunch of insensed "slackers" from taking all your consumer goods from you, plus dignity, plus a helluva lot else.


Quote:
row some balls, grow a spine get some ambition. Just do me a favor, the first year that your 1040 shows $200,000 plus, call me and remind me how you didn't work hard enough for it, how easy it was, how you took no personal risk and that in the end you really wish the gov would take more of it, because they are better at deciding where it should go than you are.


So actors deserve their money? Really hard for the feckless and untalented cast of Friends to scoop millions per episode? Really unfair that their "hard work" is taxed so that they end up still getting more per hour than a lot of people expect to get in a lifetime? Yeah "get some Ambition" - through hard work and perseverance, you might be lucky enough (fate and low taxes allowing) to accumulate the fraction of the wealth of a texan oil baron, pro-basketball player, or any other nouveu-rich.

You are labouring under the misconception that "your hard work" means squat. What is this fullfilling job you do? What makes you think it's so worthwhile? The fact you get more square pieces of paper than other people who work harder and longer in worse conditions?

I'm not saying the rich are all assholes, but I am saying that they do not deserve the privilidges afforded to them. I find it amusing that anyone in the first world can talk about *working for their money*

You spend all day, every day, every waking moment routing around in garbage for scraps so you can barely afford to feed yourself on rice made with dirty water, and nothing else (like the poor women in India, or children working in mines in Africa) - you do that and THEN tell me you don't deserve to have EVERY LAST PENNY taken from you, and given to the people who work harder.

You are privilidged, and just because you are buying into the "American Dream" (lie) that you can make something of yourself from nothing, and as such you don't owe anyone anything (lie) - doesn't mean anyone else should.

Money is intrinsically worthless. It's an arbitrary unit of power, nothing more. Your money is only worth what OTHER PEOPLE value it at. If everyone in the world were to turn around tomorrow and say "we don't deal in dollars anymore" - guess what, you'd be back on ground 0 with the rest of the "slackers"

Stop posturing about "what you're worth" and how much effort you put in, and how much hard work you have to do. You are among the richest of the richest of the rich, and it's not because of your hard work, it's because you're sitting on the top of a pyramid of misery. And it's people like you who, without knowing it, are kicking down the other people trying to get up. That's how capitalism works, it's dog eat dog and every step you are higher on the pyramid means someone gets pushed lower. "Deserving" does not come into it.

Word up, Ace42. (y) That's what I'm fucking talking about. And let me tell you, travesty, if you knew what it's like to be on food stamps I don't think you would be wishing you could use them. Talk about ignorant. Get a fucking clue, man. Drive your car downtown and talk to someone standing at the fucking bus stop waiting to go to the human services building. You think they all lazy living off your god-blessed-charmed-life-hard-earned-motherfucking fortune and you don't owe them a dime? Well fuck you too. Have some fucking compassion for people who didn't have the choices or oppourtunities that you did. Some people make mistakes and other people don't even have THAT choice. Next time, at your weekly poker game when you are dealt a bad hand and you lose, just think, gee, that's a lot like REAL life...just for a moment though, then drive your hard-earned SUV back to your split-leveled green lawn suburbia and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.

[travesty]

You are among the richest of the richest of the rich.

"learned to play the capitalist game so well" - you think $200,000 a year is "so well" pshaw. You must be really rich! Hah. .

Huh?

[travesty]

Word up, Ace42. (y) That's what I'm fucking talking about. And let me tell you, travesty, if you knew what it's like to be on food stamps I don't think you would be wishing you could use them. Talk about ignorant. Get a fucking clue, man. Drive your car downtown and talk to someone standing at the fucking bus stop waiting to go to the human services building. You think they all lazy living off your god-blessed-charmed-life-hard-earned-motherfucking fortune and you don't owe them a dime? Well fuck you too. Have some fucking compassion for people who didn't have the choices or oppourtunities that you did. Some people make mistakes and other people don't even have THAT choice. Next time, at your weekly poker game when you are dealt a bad hand and you lose, just think, gee, that's a lot like REAL life...just for a moment though, then drive your hard-earned SUV back to your split-leveled green lawn suburbia and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.

Last time I looked, high school was still guaranteed for ALL in the US and that is the last time I was "handed" an opportunity. And because I actually took high school seriously I was able to keep having opportunities to progress. I may not know how it feels to be on food stamps but I know how it feels to scrub the shit stains out of the bottom of a toilet because being a late shift janitor was the only (second) job that I could find to fit around my first job and college. I had many shitty (literally) jobs starving my ass off through college eating mac and cheese so I could afford tuition.
Compassion? Did you read the part where myself and my employees donate materials and labor to build homes for less fortunate people than us through Habitat for Humanity. Do you know that I gave close to 20% of my income to other charitable organizations last year. Do you know that my wife works for no pay at the county substance abuse and rehab center? What do you do douchebag?

Listen, not get into a rant again, the entire point of my intial post was simply that I do not feel it is fair that people making more money should pay more taxes. Truly I have always been intrigued by a flat tax. Let's all pay equal, is that so bad? I also think it would be more productive to close a lot of the tax breaks and loopholes that the more wealthy are more likely to take advantage of than Joe Middle America. Because even with higher tax rates, there are a lot of really good ways to get around paying most of it anyway. Most of the the working class do not enjoy write-offs like second homes or rental properties, owning a business has some good ones too.

PS- I fucking HATE SUV's!!!!

[bilbo]

Every couple of years someone drags out that old grey flat tax mare. :rolleyes:
Flat tax would mean higher taxes for everyone except the very wealthy who would get a massive tax cut.
If implemented properly, the progressive tax system is still the best way to go. Unfortunately, the rich have been successful at dismantling it or finding really good ways to get around paying most of it.

[travesty]

If implemented properly, the progressive tax system is still the best way to go. [/I]

For who?

[bilbo]

For a Democratic capitalist society sport. :rolleyes:

[bilbo]

Anyway, the flat tax will never happen. Regardless of party, the legislative branch draws most of its power from the annual dickering with the tax system and granting privleges to special interest groups.

Nighty-night :D
zzzzzzzzzz

[travesty]

Anyway, the flat tax will never happen. Regardless of party, the legislative branch draws most of its power from the annual dickering with the tax system and granting privleges to special interest groups.

Nighty-night :D
zzzzzzzzzz


Good point, sleep tight Mr. Baggins :)

[Ace42]

Huh?

It is very simple. Simply by living in America, that puts you at the top of a very very broadbased pyramid.


FACTS AND FIGURES ON POVERTY

A quarter of the world’s population, 1.3 billion people, live in severe poverty...
Nearly 800 million people do not get enough food, and about 500 million people are chronically malnourished. More than a third of children are malnourished.
In industrial countries more than 100 million people live below the poverty line, more than 5 million people are homeless and 37 million are jobless.

The net wealth of the 10 richest billionaires is $ 133 billion , more than 1.5 times the total national income of the least developed countries.
The cost of eradicating poverty is 1% of global income.
Effective debt relief to the 20 poorest countries would cost $ 5.5 billion - equivalent to the cost of building EuroDisney.
Providing universal access to basic social services and transfers to alleviate income poverty would cost $ 80 billion, less than the net worth of the seven richest men in the world.
Six countries can spend $ 700 million in nine days on dog and cat food.
Today’s world spend $ 92 billion on junkfood, $ 66 billion on cosmetics and nearly $ 800 billion in 1995 for defence expenditure.

http://www.undp.org/teams/english/facts.htm

So, to clarify, unemployed people in the US (even homeless people) are generally "richer" (in that people give them what would be a week's wages elsewhere in the world to go buy a coffee) than a lot of people.

However, $200,000 is NOT rich by western standards. 13.3 billion is rich by US standards (hell even a million or two is incredibly rich by US standards I'd say, although "rich" is subjective) and thus you aren't really close.

Compared to a beggar getting one ruppee a week, you are richer than the billionaires are compared to you.

Does this make you average Joe? No. As you can see, 13.3 billion would put you in the top 10 men in the world.

According to http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

The US population is currently about 294,000,000 / 6,389,000,000

My maths (and please feel free to double check it, it is 5am and I could easily make an error in my calculations) says that is about 1/22nd of the world's population. That comes to 4.6% of the world's population. So, consider how rich you are in your society. You think a fair bit, evidently, I think not that rich, especially compared to billionaires. You are "quite well off" out of the richest 5% of people on the planet (although if anyone wants to add other nation's "rich stats" to the mixer, that would be appreciated. I concede saying that America is the richest country in the world is clearly open to debate)

Even if you were the poorest of the richest 5% of people on the planet, that would still make you Richer than 95% of the planet. If we tot up some of the other countries and add them to the stats, I'd say that swings, what another couple of percent?

Thus, in the first quote you highlighted, I was pointing out that you are at the top of a global pyramid. When it comes to global wealth, for little or no work, you have been give everything.

However, in the second quote, where we were specifically talking about the capitalist game [so not China then... Although it is going capitalist] (And specifically in America, unless you are saying your company is multi-national, which I do not understand that it is) and thus, considering your starting position (the top 5%) you haven't actually made much progress at all. Compared to the billionaires, you are nowhere. Hell, even compared to some of my aquaintances, you are the "joe average" which I think you are using to justify your position.

[travesty]

Holy shit Ace! For 5am that was incredibly detailed explanation!

"World vs. American standards" would have sufficed. Anyhow, good morning have some coffee for me and enjoy the day. It's going to be Friday here....yipee! :D

[Ace42]

I like to check my facts now and then. It is easy to assume that because you've heard oxfam go on and on about global poverty; and because you had that twee e-mail chain-spam letter saying how lucky you are to be in the richest 1% of the world; and because you realise there are an awful lot of poor chinese and Africans out there that all of these assertions must mean that someone in the US must be defacto "rich"

While it is still debatable (even finding these stats was difficult, as there was a lot of extraneous material to sift through, and way too detailed for me to compile a spreadsheet to attempt statistical analysis) I do think it was vindicated, and thus an argument I might need to use again in the future.

It is nice not having to worry about someone saying "Oh, but hang on, America is actually only a significant part of the top *25%* of the world" - that would be quite egg-on-face embarrassing.

Also, I thought the stats for solving global poverty were fascinating. People say feeding (and feeding well) everyone in the world is a pipe-dream. Even just *not-building-EuroDisney-and-giving-the-money-to-charity* would go a big way to eradicating it :(

If anything, I think this also vindicates Bill Hicks:

Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defences each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

http://www.gavinsblog.com/revelations.htm

[TheWedge]

Last time I looked, high school was still guaranteed for ALL in the US and that is the last time I was "handed" an opportunity. And because I actually took high school seriously I was able to keep having opportunities to progress.

Sorry dude, but that doesn't amount to squat.
High school is "guaranteed" to all in the US, but in my neck of the woods, many high schools are being shut down. (In the ghettos of course)
Kids are forced to go to school across town, which makes it nearly impossible for them to attend regularly.
The schools they transfer to, and most of the other urban schools are a joke.
The only kids that get anywhere from thoses schools, play basketball or some other sport where their talent can be exploited by the upper class.
Also, I would imagine, it's a lot easier to take High School seriously if you don't have a family to take care of at the time.

I'm not attacking you personally, to be honest, I am very impressed with you, and I have a ton of respect for you from what I've gathered via this message board. But to say that "all kids have the same opportunities because high school is guaranteed" is kind of short sited, bro.

Beleive it or not, some people actually do have it bad, by no fault of their own.

[travesty]

Don't get me started on education in the US...you are right it is fucked. My mother is a middle school teacher. My point was simply that I believe, good or bad that every child can attend school and get out of it at least what they put in. My town had some pretty shitty schools as well, but I knew a few kids that attended them and "managed" to make it into some prestigious colleges.

The respect is certainly reciprocal but I don't think saying that the only way "these kids" can get anywhere is through sports. I think the midset of the community is as much to blame for that than any other factor. It seems to be ingrained early on that young urban kids have no other outlet to be successful, which in the end is more destructive as only a fraction of a percent of those kids get the "opportunity" to "be exploited by the upper class". The rest are failed by the community and thier parents by denying thier education for a pipe dream.

[Ace42]

which in the end is more destructive as only a fraction of a percent of those kids get the "opportunity" to "be exploited by the upper class". The rest are failed by the community and thier parents by denying thier education for a pipe dream.

That's what all capitalism is though, an opportunity to be exploited by the upper class. That's what the middle class are, not self-made entrepreneurs, but the rich's bitches. If all these kids had the opportunity to get office jobs instead of aiming for sport scholarships, then there'd be no bog cleaners, burger flippers, etc etc. You can't have a hierarchical system without a bottom layer, and that bottom layer has to be the broadest and the most static.

[travesty]

That's what all capitalism is though, an opportunity to be exploited by the upper class. That's what the middle class are, not self-made entrepreneurs, but the rich's bitches. If all these kids had the opportunity to get office jobs instead of aiming for sport scholarships, then there'd be no bog cleaners, burger flippers, etc etc. You can't have a hierarchical system without a bottom layer, and that bottom layer has to be the broadest and the most static.

Ahhh ace, up early again? I agree with you that broad lower class is mandatory for a successful capitalist economy, however (and I know you'll dispute this in length) I do believe that, sometimes, capitalism allows "the rich's bitches" to become rich bitches themselves. I know you have a negative pre-disposition toward "the American Dream" but occassionally it does actually happen. Furthermore, I don't think that the appalling state of the US educational system is a predetermined attack aimed solely at the lifetime failure of our urban youth.

[Ace42]

Ahhh ace, up early again? I agree with you that broad lower class is mandatory for a successful capitalist economy, however (and I know you'll dispute this in length) I do believe that, sometimes, capitalism allows "the rich's bitches" to become rich bitches themselves. I know you have a negative pre-disposition toward "the American Dream" but occassionally it does actually happen. Furthermore, I don't think that the appalling state of the US educational system is a predetermined attack aimed solely at the lifetime failure of our urban youth.

Asleep late.

And yeah, I do disagree. I know that the odd few can make it through the net, but that is just throwing titbits to the odd dog so they sit up and beg on command. As the Tsar, Chinese government, etc etc know, if the bottom / middle layers get too unhappy, they are screwed. It's like saying the national lottery is a good financial system - "Well, some people occasionaly win big, so you all keep pouring your money and interest into it and it could be you!"

I remembr reading an article somewhere, and alas I think it was a link somewhere that I can't easily trace down, but it gave figures to illustrate that class transmigration is infact getting rarer and rarer in all first world economies, although IMO this is no doubt linked to the widening of the gap between the extremely wealthy few, and the not so wealthy - in effect it is harder to get as rich, because the rich are getting richer quicker. This is not surprising, again, this is how capitalism works.

It's sad, but even if you are earning more money quicker than you were (IE your rate of income is increasing) - it is increasing even faster for people already more wealthy than you.

There are already cracks showing in the system, and unless there is pretty heavy handed sanctions to deal with it, the system will fail. This effect is IMO amplified by the "big empire" tendancy, IE Rome, British Empire, etc.

I read an article in New Scientist which said this might be to do with a phenomenon called "fractal" something or other. The word left my head as I was typing it... Anyway, basically it means that societies have a "fractal index" which is to do with how many fractal units make up the next fractal level in entirety. If the index is off whack, like a pile of sand being added to one grain at a time, sooner or later the whole thing shifts. The article hypothesised this was a phenomena ... Instability, Fractal Instability, I thought it might come back to me... Anyway, a phenomena that was key in the fall of the mayans.

Anyway, if we apply this to capitalism, it means you need a very broad base. A lot (LOT) of people need to be lower than the people at the top. The higher the people at the top, the more people you need at the very bottom. So, it would seem capitalism is (like we don't all know it) based on social injustice. No matter how hard people work, there has to be a lot of people on the bottom. If they all worked insanely hard, it cannot magically accept them to a higher level, they have to stay in place. If this did occur, inflation would go through the roof (if everyone has shitloads of money, it becomes worthless) as the system unconsciously tries to keep the bottom layer down. Quite possibly anarchy would prevail.

Which brings me back to your last point, I don't think it is a predetermined attack, but I do think it is an unconscious one. The system has to protect itself, otherwise it would cease to work as I outlined (in a very oversimplified manner, admittedly) above. The system simply can't let the broad base get higher, and education (especially mandatory / free) is the obvious way to achieve this. Mandatory education is the antithesis of capitalism, and I do not think it is a coincidence (and note this does not mean that is must be pre-determined, or conscious) that it is suffering for no adequet reason. Take that UN website, look at the wealth. As US is the richest of nations, shouldn't it be able to afford half-decent schools? Taxing the rich more would be one way of achieving this (of course, the rich never like it) but by making the richer poorer, and the poor (intellectual and thus potentially) richer, it is a double-whammy against the machine, and thus unthinkable, never mind the fact that these people could never ever conceivably miss the cash they would lose. Take the cast of friends, whining about losing millions per episode in taxes... "It takes a real bite out of it" - It still leaves them with more money that most people could spend in a lifetime, Brewster's millions stylee. And that's for one episode out of a long running series!

Urm... Yes... Capitalism is bad, rant rant rant, etc.

Also, illegal immigrants, mexicans cleaning toilets etc, outsourcing to China, etc. These all keep the base artificially broad. This is one reason why people hate it so much, not because people want to get paid a pitance for shit jobs, or because they genuinely care about the exploitation of strangers, but because it is perpetuating a system which only gives them a token gesture of a chance towards bettering their social status.

[travesty]

I knew it was going to be good one when it took you so long to respond! All, as always, very valid points.

So does "mexicans cleaning toilets" when they have migrated to the US keep the base" artificially broad. I am just trying to get a grasp on that term. I assume that you mean that by using people in foriegn countries you are undermining the stability of system by sending the $$$ elsewhere for workers that are paying nothing back in.

If so, wouldn't the current relaxed immigration policies of the US be a boost for the overall stability of the system. Also, I think a token gesture is a better chance than most immigrants had in thier home countries.

The US can afford half-decent schools. Half of them are "decent". :confused:

[Ace42]

I knew it was going to be good one when it took you so long to respond! All, as always, very valid points.

So does "mexicans cleaning toilets" when they have migrated to the US keep the base" artificially broad. I am just trying to get a grasp on that term. I assume that you mean that by using people in foriegn countries you are undermining the stability of system by sending the $$$ elsewhere for workers that are paying nothing back in.

If so, wouldn't the current relaxed immigration policies of the US be a boost for the overall stability of the system. Also, I think a token gesture is a better chance than most immigrants had in thier home countries.

The US can afford half-decent schools. Half of them are "decent". :confused:

I meant, that by keeping the base artificially broad, they are supplementing the bottom rung with additional people. If all the people currently working as outsourcees or illegal immigrants were to be removed from the country, there would be a lot of buildsites without casual labourers, cafes without waitering staff, toilets not getting cleaned. If you like, you could think of these immigrants as provided a "cushion" that the bottom rung of US people (who, unlike immigrants and chinese work-camp people, get benefits) can sit on. Basically, they are keeping the proles happy. The problem is, too many of them (if you opened your borders, say) means that all of a sudden, they want equal rights. They'd want benefits too, free schooling, etc etc. Do you think the majority of american citizens could sit back and watch these people and be happy that their new found luxury (artifical luxury, they would not necessarily be substantially richer. They would just seem it, as there would be neuveau poor under them) knowing that they are in effect, slavers?

I don't think a lot of Americans are happy thinking about outsourcing as essentially foreign slavery, which is what it is in effect. They'd be a lot less happy if it was on their doorstep.

By keeping immigrants illegal, and outsourcing distant, the US capitalist system has got a bargain, as these people can't and won't have access to the American dream, they don't need to be given even the remotest chance to get ahead, the system need never worry about them getting "too high" and needing people to fill their places.

[travesty]

EEEnteresting. I would like your take on this....How does all of the outsourcing ultimately effect the overall "globalization" of markets. I would think that, at some point, if everything were sent to the lowest bidder regardless of country, the net effect would be to bolster the world economy at least temporarily, then the whole thing starts over again and probably gets even worse. However, given the vast discrepancies in wealth across nations is this sound policy for a more stable and secure world or just a band-aid that will lead massive repercussions?

[Ace42]

EEEnteresting. I would like your take on this....How does all of the outsourcing ultimately effect the overall "globalization" of markets. I would think that, at some point, if everything were sent to the lowest bidder regardless of country, the net effect would be to bolster the world economy at least temporarily, then the whole thing starts over again and probably gets even worse. However, given the vast discrepancies in wealth across nations is this sound policy for a more stable and secure world or just a band-aid that will lead massive repercussions?

I'd say that things are seldom sent to the lowest bidder. Take Halliburton. Generally in capitalism, everything is sent to whoever creates the most *personal* profit for the individual in control of the the contract. This might not necessarily mean monetary profit (The benefit can often be social credit. People see you as important, and thus give you perks and gifts, and holidays, and legal breaks, etc, etc) nor mean profit for the actual owner of the person offering the contract. Board of directors should, but don't always, represent the wants and interests of the stock-holders.

Also, there are other factors to consider with outsourcing. The cheapest producer would obviously be slave-labour, as they are producing at the bare minimum of cost (low wages) - but not if they have to pay exhorbitant costs for materials to be transported to their slave-factories, etc. Also, these have hidden costs. While China is a good site for outsourcing (civilised, so no anarchy, adequet education - ancient and wise culture, etc) due to its vast number of pseudo-communist people (massive artifically broad base at the moment) and excellent industrial base, this would not last if conditions became bad enough to cause rioting, etc. Transport of goods can easily be disrupted by sabotage from disgruntled revolutionaries, etc.

In my opinion, the "cheapest" source of production (in human, not material terms) is invariably the place with the people who are willing to settle for the least. Especially as mass production in factories, etc means that having any skill or precision is superflous to requirements.

This aside, if it did hypothetically work in a "perfect" (and thus even less likely than getting communism to work right) capitalist system, the net result on the global market would depend on the figures. Are there enough people who'll (temporarily) make do with the poor conditions in order to provide for the people who are oppulent? Are there enough people or enough military technologies to keep the "slave-proles" in place, and well away from the wealthy? Generally, at a guess, I'd think that what would happen is that the poor would stay poor for as long as they played by the system's rules. Even if they had a lot of money coming in from building things, the bottom layer can't see any of it, otherwise they'd stop and the system would collapse. Inflation would keep them poor and working. There might be "poverty-competition" and eventually the outsourced (to) might have to be outsourced to an even poorer nation, but this would not "build up" the poor, because all the time, these numerous people are building more objects than they could ever use personally, meaning that everyone above them has to be getting wealthier too - there has to be someone poorer to make the things the poor people want to spend money on.

Hmmm I don't know if that helps answer your question... I'm a bit tired. If you were more specific I might be able to offer more accurate insight. Other than that, I can say I see globalised capitalism looking a lot like 1984. - A boot stamping on a human face, forever.

Capitalism only divides.