I Oppose A Drafty Room [Archive] - Beastie Boys Message Board

paulk

08-20-2004, 10:30 PM

TheWedge

08-20-2004, 10:33 PM

You can't say there will never be a draft in my lifetime, unless you are planning on coming to where I live tonight and strangling me.

:D + (y)

Manji

08-20-2004, 10:52 PM

LOL. Good work!

Oh yeah until you register you can't qualify for any Federal Student aid, You can't have a Federal job, You can't attend JTPA Federal Job Training classes. :eek:

Tone Capone

08-21-2004, 01:44 AM

The draft is bullshit, so I have not registered with the Selective Service System.

WOW! You are stupid!

there's really not going to be a draft anytime soon. EVERYONE knows that the volunteer force is the best way to go and there are plenty of those around... including myself.

you're just making things difficult for yourself because you want to feel cool by telling everyone how you are "stickin it to the man". That's lame. (n)
Honestly, just fill out the form and don't cause complications for yourself down the road.. you ain't gonna get drafted, dumbass.

EN[i]GMA

08-21-2004, 07:37 AM

I could me mistaken but I think they sign you up for selective service when you get your driver's liscense.

Burnout18

08-21-2004, 08:48 AM

WTF? I'm confused because I did qualify and receive Federal Student Aid. Did I sign up for Selective Service without knowing it?

Maybe.. wen my friend turned 18 he refused to sign up, but his dad did it for him without his knowledge, unitl about a month or two ago.

Blighty

08-21-2004, 09:17 AM

Several people here have stated that people will not be getting drafted. What evidence do they have to back this up?

Whois

08-21-2004, 09:48 AM

You're joking right?

No, I'm not...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/wiggins/wiggins7.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/wiggins5.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul35.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/duggan3.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/klassen/klassen28.html

LIMERICKFILE

08-21-2004, 01:25 PM

There probably will never be a draft in your lifetime, it's a non issue.

Any rationale behind that?

paulk

08-21-2004, 05:29 PM

Burnout18

08-21-2004, 05:42 PM

The draft is bullshit, so I have not registered with the Selective Service System.

u can face jailtime then . (http://www.sss.gov/FSbenefits.htm)

LIMERICKFILE

08-21-2004, 06:33 PM

Well, most of America is against a draft. Bringing it back would create quite the uproar.

You'd think we as a people would have the common sense to make an uproar about the Patriot Act, or Republicans needing rally attendees to sign an oath. And just because most of America is against the draft, most of America doesn't call the shots or make decisions. If they want the draft, it will at least be implemented and tried before it can be shot down.

EN[i]GMA

08-21-2004, 06:40 PM

How simple you are. Don't you think the Germans were against a draft in 33'. Draft is never "popular". All you have to do however, is make people think it's NEEDED and your job is done. If there are terrorists or communists or ghosts that could kill you, and they remind of this fact every chance they get, and they make you think "getting rid of them" is the only option, this whole "draft" thing falls right into place as nescecscary.

Manji

08-21-2004, 10:13 PM

WTF? I'm confused because I did qualify and receive Federal Student Aid. Did I sign up for Selective Service without knowing it?

Are you 26 yet? You have until then to register after then you will not be able to get it any more... and you could go to jail for 5 years.
I doubt it though, but that's what they say on the selective services website.

LIMERICKFILE

08-22-2004, 02:45 AM

I don't think you can compare a draft where one would be forced to possibly kill/be killed, to the Patriot Act where one's privacy would be infringed upon. Which is easier to swallow, tapped phone lines or combat?

I do like to think that we have a bit of say in our government as well.

EN[i]GMA, I'm not sure who you are addressing, but I again don't think you can compare present day America to Nazi Germany. It shouldn't be possible for the government to pull the wool over our eyes with fears of a false threat by "terrorists or communists or ghosts." We are an informed nation who have the internet and countless crazies who'll dutifully tell us about all our government's indescretions.

TANGENT: I do fully support our troops like Tone Capone and thank him and others for volunteering to do a sometimes thankless job.

My point was that, in my eyes, we as a population are letting lots of things slide that I for one think would cause mass hysteria. "Free Speech Zones"? The concept of that alone is horrible; creating areas in which there is free speech would imply that outside of that area there is not free speech. And yet it's a matter which not enough people feel strong enough against.

I still think before the concept of the draft is reformed or forgotten, it will at least be tried again, regardless of the dissent towards the government during it's implementation.

Ace42

08-22-2004, 05:03 AM

Are you 26 yet? You have until then to register after then you will not be able to get it any more... and you could go to jail for 5 years.
I doubt it though, but that's what they say on the selective services website.

Lots of US governmental institutions try to forward draconian policies. More often than not, they get thrown out at trial for being unconstitutional. I'd not worry about it. It's not like I worry about RIAA knocking on my door, considering they have yet to win a single MP3 court-case.

EN[i]GMA

08-22-2004, 08:34 AM

The wool was pulled over our eyes for the PATRIOT Act. Your not hearing about the PATRIOT Act 2 on your evenind news, are you? Did you get the whole truth about the war in Iraq? Saying it can't happen is mighty presumptious. You apparently trust them more than I do.

Tone Capone

08-22-2004, 10:45 PM

Fuck you, you smug asshole. I don't know what they told you, but volunteering for service doesn't automatically make you a better man.

That aside,

The Nevada DMV doesn't support SSS registration.

I wouldn't qualify for federal student aid anyway. Freedom Toast: I think when you fill out the FAFSA you are also registering with the selective service.

well I'm certaintly better than you.

DroppinScience

08-22-2004, 11:10 PM

Okay Americans, you're gonna need to fill me in here.

Selective Service System? What does this mean exactly and how come you'll go to jail if you don't sign up? :confused:

I'd consider myself pretty savvy of this internal American stuff, but I guess I can't know everything without living in the States.

DroppinScience

08-22-2004, 11:47 PM

Tone Capone

08-23-2004, 02:15 AM

Hmmm, it seems to be saying that the SSS is registering names of eligible people for service. However, it doesn't mean there's gonna be a draft anytime soon, but if there is a draft, this system is prepared to help out.

Would that be about right?

The wording on that site is a tad shifty.

That sounds about right to me. I think the only way a draft would happen is if WW3 broke out... and even then maybe. Military leadership knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that an all volunteer service is the best way to go. It's that simple, you get a better quality of person than if you tell some junkie "Hey get a haircut and come do a job you never wanted to do at all!"

paulk

08-23-2004, 03:55 PM

I think the only way a draft would happen is if WW3 broke out... and even then maybe.

So what was the exception for Vietnam? Has something in the system changed since then?

Burnout18

08-23-2004, 04:03 PM

So what was the exception for Vietnam? Has something in the system changed since then?

your getting nothing done.... just cause your scared to go off to Iraq or watever, doesnt mean shit, and every male signs up eventually. I did and its not the end of the world.

paulk

08-23-2004, 04:19 PM

That's the spirit, just do as you're told and you'll be fine. Big Bro has got your back, brotha.

Tone Capone

08-23-2004, 05:33 PM

So what was the exception for Vietnam? Has something in the system changed since then?

You can't be serious...
I'm talking about NOW we've learned a lot since vietnam. Again, we probably won't be seeing a draft in our lifetime... Lord...

Tone Capone

08-23-2004, 05:36 PM

That's the spirit, just do as you're told and you'll be fine. Big Bro has got your back, brotha.

Do you want to be against something so bad that you pick the most stupid things to rebel against???!

Funkaloyd

08-23-2004, 06:29 PM

Military leadership knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that an all volunteer service is the best way to go.

Most of the American troops currently serving in warzones aren't involved in any strategic operations. Conscripts could be used to police, maintain a presence and make the occasional raid, freeing up volunteers for larger operations, possibly more invasions.

TheWedge

08-23-2004, 06:51 PM

We are probably going to invade Iran sometime in the future.
From what I've gathered lurking around a few conservative boards, most of the gung-ho Iraq people are salivating over the idea of dropping some shock and awe on the Iranians.

bilbo

08-23-2004, 07:00 PM

Shock and Awe worked so well in Iraq. :rolleyes:
The only thing shock and awe has done is assure that there'll be a whole new generation of "terra-ists".
Way to go neocons, job well done. (n)

Tone Capone

08-23-2004, 07:34 PM

Burnout18

08-24-2004, 05:57 AM

That's the spirit, just do as you're told and you'll be fine. Big Bro has got your back, brotha.

wow, well then i wish i was a badass rebel like u then,., who fought the law and then bragged about it on beastieboys.com.... like i said dont be scared your 18 now you gotta grow up sometime, i did it a year ago, too and i wasn't thrilled about it either, but your not gonna get anything accomplished but not signing up...

Funkaloyd

08-24-2004, 06:20 AM

See, in most industrialized nations people celebrate "growing up" by moving out, getting a drivers licence, or buying and drinking copious amounts of alcoholic beverages. Things like that—related to idividual liberty. You're saying that he should grow up and give his body away to his government. You don't see the problem there?

If he gets taken to court then he possibly could get something done.

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 06:58 AM

did I miss something?

Perhaps you haven't noticed the Iran propaganda that has been slowly trickeling out of the "liberal media".

http://www.referendum-iran.org/Docs/news/Human-Rights-July-2004.pdf

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19143-2004Jul27.html

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=96&language_id=1

http://www.mehr.org/Iran_Ties_Terrorism_By_Risen.htm

It's all there! WMD's, crimes agains humanity, opressive regime, ties to terrorism. LET'S ROLL! :rolleyes:

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 07:06 AM

That's the spirit, just do as you're told and you'll be fine. Big Bro has got your back, brotha.

I find it interesting that you live in a country as great as ours, reaping all the benefits of our freedoms and you seem to think that somehow the rules shouldn't apply to you. Your statements do nothing but show that you do not believe in the very system that made those freedoms available to you. "Freedom isn't free" is a statement I believe in. Whether you like to accept it or not, there are times when conflict is necessary. As a "man" you should be willing to accept the responsibilities that are expected of every man in this nation. Whether you necessarily agree with it or not we are One nation indivisible, or at least that's the idea. I guess what you're saying by your actions is,it's ok to be an American as long as it doesn't cost you anything.

Funkaloyd

08-24-2004, 07:26 AM

I wish that I had the freedom to be conscripted at the desecration of my government. I think that I'm going to start a revolution, win it, and then write up a constitution holding that every government is endowed by God with the right to do with its citizens whatever it pleases.

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 07:46 AM

I find it interesting that you live in a country as great as ours, reaping all the benefits of our freedoms and you seem to think that somehow the rules shouldn't apply to you. Your statements do nothing but show that you do not believe in the very system that made those freedoms available to you.

The current selective service policy was established in 1980.
So, this particular edition has never made any freedom available to anyone.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0844347.html

Granted, it was PERHAPS responsible for PROTECTING some of our freedoms in the past. (WW1, and 2). But I don't really see how the selective service made freedom available to anyone.
In regards to the current situation and your comment that freedom isn't free, I really don't see a connection.
Are you saying he should register for the selective service so Iraqis can be free?

paulk

08-24-2004, 09:35 AM

The current selective service policy was established in 1980.
So, this particular edition has never made any freedom available to anyone.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0844347.html

Granted, it was PERHAPS responsible for PROTECTING some of our freedoms in the past. (WW1, and 2). But I don't really see how the selective service made freedom available to anyone.
In regards to the current situation and your comment that freedom isn't free, I really don't see a connection.
Are you saying he should register for the selective service so Iraqis can be free?

Exactly. Word to TheWedge and Funkaloyd for being two of the several people on this board with more than a shred of fucking common sense.

And Fuck You to all the dick eaters who assume that I started this thread to show what a badass I am. Fuck everyone on this board who assumes shit like that, like if you aren't voting for Kerry that means you must like Bush. And fuck you all who for some reason think that I wouldn't die for my country in a heartbeat. My country, not the assholes in it or the government.

Go read some Thomas Jefferson you bunch of pricks.

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 09:53 AM

The current selective service policy was established in 1980.
So, this particular edition has never made any freedom available to anyone.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0844347.html

Granted, it was PERHAPS responsible for PROTECTING some of our freedoms in the past. (WW1, and 2). But I don't really see how the selective service made freedom available to anyone.
In regards to the current situation and your comment that freedom isn't free, I really don't see a connection.
Are you saying he should register for the selective service so Iraqis can be free?

I was more or less adressing the the point that inspite of his personal feelings conscerning registering with the selective service, it is the law and as an American male citizen he should register. To me it's no more valid than saying I don't like the President so I'm not going to file my income taxes this year. It seems rather childish, and considering his only response was telling me to "eat the dick" or whatever it is obvious that he is just a frightened boy who is afraid to have any responsifility and take a step in becomming a man.
It's one thing to have an opposing political view, and it's another thing to become a criminal. No I'm not saying that by registering he will help make Iraq free. I was pointing out that by not registering it sends a message that he is somehow exempt from service based on an ideal. Sacrifice is sometimes necessary, but then again I supose it could be argued that because of our freedom he is free to be a coward.

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 09:57 AM

LOL!
You COWARD!!
How dare you not register for selective service, and by doing so, subject yourself to the possibility of being drafted into a war you do not agree with.
You chickenshit!

I have been contemplating not paying my income taxes.
I don't like the idea that my hard earned money is going to Iraq and Israel.
Unfortunately, enough people are stupid enough to support both of those causes, so I don't really have any other alternative.
It's either pay them and accept the fact that it is going into programs I am opposed to, or do not pay them and be subject to arrest.

Remember that coward Rosa Parks who wouldn't give up her seat on the bus?

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 10:16 AM

I suppose I failed to explain it effectively. At least you got a good laugh out of it so it wasn't a total waste. I thought comparing him to Rosa Parks was a bit of a stretch.

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 10:35 AM

Calling someone a coward because they refuse to register for selective service, could also be considered a stretch. Especially considering this person already explained why he was opposed to doing so, and cowardice was not mentioned in his explanation.
I pulled a play right out of your bible.
An eye for an eye, a stretch for a stretch.
;)
At least my stretch illustrated a point.
That civil disobedience is not necessarily cowardice.

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 10:42 AM

I see, I have to wonder though would he be brave enough to die for his belief that he should not register? Or not?

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 10:46 AM

You would have to ask him that.
Personally, I would exhaust all other possibilities before accepting death in light of my beliefs.
In the modern world, people tend to have options beyond dying for their beliefs, like having their father get them cooshy jobs in the Air National Guard.
:D

Edited: I don't think the death penalty applies to people who fail to register for the selective service. Or are you implying that his freedom to be a coward, as you called it earlier, is in jeopardy, and he may need to fight and eventually die to keep that right?
Because I'd like to hear an explanation of that one, if so.

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 10:54 AM

You would have to ask him that.
Personally, I would exhaust all other possibilities before accepting death in light of my beliefs.
In the modern world, people tend to have options beyond dying for their beliefs, like having their father get them cooshy jobs in the Air National Guard.
:D

Oh come on you were playing his advocate so well :D

Well the point is by registering you accept the possibility of getting drafted and possibly dying in a war. Anyone who registers knows this. It's not very probable, but possible nonetheless. By oppossing this I was wondering if it was because of the power of his convictions or the fear of possibly being drafted. Mabey he's an electric American......chooses the path of least resistance. But I digress

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 10:57 AM

Oh come on you were playing his advocate so well :D

Well the point is by registering you accept the possibility of getting drafted and possibly dying in a war. Anyone who registers knows this. It's not very probable, but possible nonetheless. By oppossing this I was wondering if it was because of the power of his convictions or the fear of possibly being drafted. Mabey he's an electric American......chooses the path of least resistance. But I digress

Couldn't both of those reasons be the same?
The strength of his convictions, forces him to be fearful of dying in a war he doesn't agree with?
If you don't register, and a war breaks out that you do agree with, and feel is just, and that you are truly defending your homeland/freedom, I'm sure they would let you sign up for it anyway. :cool:

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 12:03 PM

Do you really trust the administration (any administration) and Congress with your lives like that? Would any of you have volunteered to go fight in Vietnam?

It sounds like some people are already being "pimped out".

If there were ever a real need to defend our country, the draft would be unnecessary.

Anyone who works and pays into Social Security, Medicare, and who pays income taxes is a slave.

You can't say there will never be a draft in my lifetime, unless you are planning on coming to where I live tonight and strangling me. I think there's a very good chance of that fun lottery starting back up as early as a year from now.

I don't know Wedge. This country was founded by people who sacrifiiced. He says that some people are already being pimped out which I'm assuming is talking about current active duty soldiers.
He also says if you work and pay income taxes you're a slave.
Then he says if it WERE necessary to defend this country the draft would be unnecessary, implying, I suppose, that he would be first in line.........I somehow doubt that.
He sounds like an angry dissedent who wants to reap dividends without ever having invested. (n)

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 12:38 PM

I think it could be taken any number of ways.
Adding, "I doubt it" to what you think he is implying doesn't mean anything, except maybe to you.
Maybe he is an "angry dissedent", but IMO, people SHOULD be angry at this point.
As far as him reaping dividneds, but not investing, that's just an assumption.
How do you know, he's not sick of investing, only to see his dividends being squandered?

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 12:50 PM

I doubt it

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 01:21 PM

"And so he hath spoken it, and then it becameth so."
:D

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 01:27 PM

Amen

paulk

08-24-2004, 02:56 PM

Then he says if it WERE necessary to defend this country the draft would be unnecessary, implying, I suppose, that he would be first in line.........I somehow doubt that. (n)

Why?

100% ILL

08-24-2004, 03:06 PM

Why?

You seem to be against the system so why would you defend it ?

Tone Capone

08-24-2004, 04:53 PM

Perhaps you haven't noticed the Iran propaganda that has been slowly trickeling out of the "liberal media".

http://www.referendum-iran.org/Docs/news/Human-Rights-July-2004.pdf

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19143-2004Jul27.html

http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_report&report_id=96&language_id=1

http://www.mehr.org/Iran_Ties_Terrorism_By_Risen.htm

It's all there! WMD's, crimes agains humanity, opressive regime, ties to terrorism. LET'S ROLL! :rolleyes:

I don't think it's propaganda that Iran is crazy! They are gonna have to be dealt with one day.

Tone Capone

08-24-2004, 04:54 PM

I see, I have to wonder though would he be brave enough to die for his belief that he should not register? Or not?

GOOD POINT!! (y)

bilbo

08-24-2004, 05:00 PM

They are gonna have to be dealt with one day.

Why?
How?

TheWedge

08-24-2004, 06:33 PM

Why?
How?

No shit.
Using your logic, we are going to "have to deal" with most of the world eventually.
Phuck that. Who made us the world's "savior"?

It's propaganda BECAUSE it makes you think Iran is "crazy".
You see, this way, when we decide to invade them, they can say, "look, they're fucking crazy and need to be dealt with".
Just like now, when they say, "look these Muslims are crazy and they hate our freedom. They have no other motive for attacking us other than the fact that they are crazy and they hate our freedom. Therefore, we need to do whatever it takes to stop them. If that means bombing innocent civillians, so be it. If that means making America a police state, so be it. They're crazy AND they hate our freedom. We can't allow these crazy freedom haters to go around hating our freedom like a bunch of crazy freedom haters."
And then Joe American says, "yeah honey, they must be crazy if they hate our freedom enough to kill themselves over it. Damn, I'm voting for Bush because he's really going after these crazy freedom haters."

travesty

08-25-2004, 08:15 AM

No shit.
Using your logic, we are going to "have to deal" with most of the world eventually.

No doubt. When are we going to "deal" with Fiji or Trinidad..... I'm signing up.

I'm tired of "dealing" with the rest of the world, let's go Swiss and F 'em all! Let 'em fight it out amongst themselves. We'll get our oil in Alaska.

ChrisLove

08-25-2004, 08:36 AM

We'll get our oil in Alaska.

Good luck with that and the $10 gallon gas prices

100% ILL

08-25-2004, 09:18 AM

No doubt. When are we going to "deal" with Fiji or Trinidad..... I'm signing up.

I'm tired of "dealing" with the rest of the world, let's go Swiss and F 'em all! Let 'em fight it out amongst themselves. We'll get our oil in Alaska.

Apathy is not a soloution. We must control some of the Arab oil supply or find another source of energy. Either way until we get out from under Arab controlled oil we will always be, in some ways, at their mercy.

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 09:53 AM

It's just too bad the idea of alternative fuel sources doesn't make that cha-ching sound that the idea of war for oil does in the minds of those who have the power to do something about it.

I heard this morning on NPR that give or take 6 weeks, Thanksgiving '05 is going to be HUGE.
The man being interviewed (sorry, I tuned in late and missed his name) said that he predicts a major worldwide oil shortage by then.

ChrisLove

08-25-2004, 10:08 AM

There is a worldwide oil shortage now, thats why the price is so high!

This current spate of high oil prices is looking like being more than the tempoary blip that a lot of people (myself included thought it would be), I often wonder if perhaps this peak oil thing is a bigger problem than we are being led to believe.

The British government has launched a huge new policy to make Britain a low carbon economy over the next 50 years, we are trying to get 10% of our electiricty generated by renewable sources by 2010 (we will fail to meet this target but hey we are trying). The official reason for this is a combination of environmental factors (global warming) and securtiy of supply. The problem is that the link between Co2 and global warming is still open to some debate and it seems odd that we are spending so much money when we are not certain our actions will help? Maybe the real reason is that the world is running out of oil faster than governments have been letting on?

Probably not (if it was then the Americans would most likely be trying to restrict oil consumption and they are not), but it makes ya think

Ok this is a major digression sorry!

100% ILL

08-25-2004, 10:08 AM

ChrisLove

08-25-2004, 10:18 AM

Well I don't think alternative fuel sources will catch in the near furure, because the Government won't be able to make nearly as much money off of it so it just isn't appealing. Car companies are making pretty good profits off of their hybrid models. An oil shortage would send the economy into the pooper :(

I was talking about this on Hannity the other day, its funny but these Hybrid cars which are really expensive dont seem to be effecient as the smaller cars favoured by Europeans. ie my Rover Metro does 52 mpg and 105 mph.

There is so much marketing in motoring its sick, convincing people that what they want in life is a 30+ grand car that performs the identical function to a 3 grand car (only much less efficiently). I get quite annoyed about cars, I regard the automobile market as an example of specacular market failure.

I guess things will change if these oil prices stay or rise further.

100% ILL

08-25-2004, 10:30 AM

I was talking about this on Hannity the other day, its funny but these Hybrid cars which are really expensive dont seem to be effecient as the smaller cars favoured by Europeans. ie my Rover Metro does 52 mpg and 105 mph.

There is so much marketing in motoring its sick, convincing people that what they want in life is a 30+ grand car that performs the identical function to a 3 grand car (only much less efficiently). I get quite annoyed about cars, I regard the automobile market as an example of specacular market failure.

I guess things will change if these oil prices stay or rise further.

I wish they offered some of the cars you guys drive over there here in the states. Really small and fuel effecient. I don't know what they cost over there but if you buy a $3,000 car here it's gonna probably be a turd-o-matic

ChrisLove

08-25-2004, 10:44 AM

My car is kind of turd o matic, like its not going to get me any chicks but, it never breaks down (and if it does there is a good chance I can fix it myself) it does milage and its lack of power is countered by its lack of weight (y)

Of course if I crash Im just dead - simple as that. My car isnt nessecarily optimal but I think in terms of value its hard to beat.

paulk

08-25-2004, 11:47 AM

It's sad that I have to point out to you that the country I would die for and the system that I wouldn't die for (and you apparently would) are two different things.

100% ILL

08-25-2004, 12:16 PM

It's sad that I have to point out to you that the country I would die for and the system that I wouldn't die for (and you apparently would) are two different things.

That's the part about being an American soldier that you will never understand. Don't talk of what you WOULD do when you don't even have the intestinal fortitude to put your name in a hat, much less volunteer. Hide behind your petty ideals and preach that garbage to someone who has the luxury of sitting on their ass and complaining. The only thing that's sad is the fact that you don't even have a basic understanding of what it means to be free.

Ace42

08-25-2004, 12:21 PM

I get quite annoyed about cars, I regard the automobile market as an example of specacular market failure.

Does this lead you to consider the possibility that thatcherite economics and unrestricted capitalism might not be as good a system as we are led to believe?

Personally, I can think of 100 & 1 commercial systems which are not kept in good order by the "unseen hand" and I am very skeptical about people's faith in capitalism to find the best way on its own.

ChrisLove

08-25-2004, 12:35 PM

I absolutely believe that Thatcherite economics and capitalism are highly flawed systems. My respect for Thatcher is more to do with my belief that she put what she viewed as the best thing for the country above protecting her political career (as an example, she raised income tax in the height of a recession, making people hate her but defeating inflation as a problem in the UK forever), ie my feeling is she would be more than willing to make an unpopular decision if she believed it to be the right thing to do.

Free markets always fail (by which I mean they deliver non optimal outcomes), I can not think of a single example where that is not the case(off the top of my head anyway), I just think that regulation can be used to obtain good outcomes from these markets if used appropriately. Carbon Taxes might be a good if over simplified example.

paulk

08-25-2004, 03:11 PM

That's the part about being an American soldier that you will never understand. Don't talk of what you WOULD do when you don't even have the intestinal fortitude to put your name in a hat, much less volunteer. Hide behind your petty ideals and preach that garbage to someone who has the luxury of sitting on their ass and complaining. The only thing that's sad is the fact that you don't even have a basic understanding of what it means to be free.

Explain to me what it means to be free then. And none of this "well if I have to explain it you will never understand" bullshit. That is, when you get back from fighting for my lazy ass's freedom over in Iraq. Right?

100% ILL

08-25-2004, 03:49 PM

Explain to me what it means to be free then. And none of this "well if I have to explain it you will never understand" bullshit. That is, when you get back from fighting for my lazy ass's freedom over in Iraq. Right?

Freedom is a word you hide behind to throw rocks at people who don't see things your way. You'll complain about the taxes, the President,and the war, which is your freedom to do so, but the only thing this country requires of you as an 18 yr old male is to register with the selective service. That's it. Nobody's asking you to do anything else. Rather than do it all I've seen is "that's bullshit, I'll not do that"
and then you really expect me to believe that you can be counted on whenever YOU deem it necessary? I question you and it's "eat a dick motherfucker" Why don't you register? Because their trying to take away your freedom you say. All that is asked is that you stand up and be counted on to possibly defend it if need be! and you won't even do that! Freedom is a wonderful commodity that allows us to better ourselves as individuals, worship as we see fit and yes even Protest the system if we so choose, but if you are not even willing to stand up and be counted on to defend the very freedom that allows you to complain as much as you do without fear of retribution then I don't beleive you appreciate or understand what you have.

paulk

08-25-2004, 04:15 PM

Ace42

08-25-2004, 05:06 PM

but if you are not even willing to stand up and be counted on to defend the very freedom that allows you to complain as much as you do without fear of retribution then I don't beleive you appreciate or understand what you have.

Getting drafted has nothing to do with defending anything. Furthermore, it is insane to suggest that the best way to ensure personal freedom is to give it up.

EN[i]GMA

08-25-2004, 05:27 PM

Signing up for an orginaztion designed only to take away your freedom is the only way to defend your freedom. How effective the PR is. It's scary and disgusting.

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 05:55 PM

but the only thing this country requires of you as an 18 yr old male is to register with the selective service. That's it. Nobody's asking you to do anything else.

SWEET! I AM going to quit paying taxes.

I registered when I was 18, so I've done all that is required of me to enjoy my freedom.

YAY!! Bring on the freedom. (good thing I don't want to marry another man, or smoke marijuana though)

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 07:59 PM

No shit.
Using your logic, we are going to "have to deal" with most of the world eventually.
Phuck that. Who made us the world's "savior"?

It's propaganda BECAUSE it makes you think Iran is "crazy".
You see, this way, when we decide to invade them, they can say, "look, they're fucking crazy and need to be dealt with".
Just like now, when they say, "look these Muslims are crazy and they hate our freedom. They have no other motive for attacking us other than the fact that they are crazy and they hate our freedom. Therefore, we need to do whatever it takes to stop them. If that means bombing innocent civillians, so be it. If that means making America a police state, so be it. They're crazy AND they hate our freedom. We can't allow these crazy freedom haters to go around hating our freedom like a bunch of crazy freedom haters."
And then Joe American says, "yeah honey, they must be crazy if they hate our freedom enough to kill themselves over it. Damn, I'm voting for Bush because he's really going after these crazy freedom haters."

No, I guess you're right.
The freedom loving Iranian govt should be a model for the rest of the world to follow... thanks for opening up my eyes.... (n)

EN[i]GMA

08-25-2004, 08:01 PM

*and the point flies completely over Capones head*

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 08:12 PM

No, I guess you're right.
The freedom loving Iranian govt should be a model for the rest of the world to follow... thanks for opening up my eyes.... (n)

OK man. I didn't say anything even remotely resembeling that remark.
What do YOU propose we do?
Do we invade Iran, then North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, etc.
One by one until we take down every freedom hating, terrorist coddeling regime in the world?
Then we can teach the world to sing, or at least teach them to buy Coca-Cola?
It's madness.
Seriously, you have to see the flaw in that mindset.

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 08:15 PM

OK man. I didn't say anything even remotely resembeling that remark.
What do YOU propose we do?
Do we invade Iran, then North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, etc.
One by one until we take down every freedom hating, terrorist coddeling regime in the world?
Then we can teach the world to sing, or at least teach them to buy Coca-Cola?
It's madness.
Seriously, you have to see the flaw in that mindset.

No really, I'm on board with you guys. I love the crazy countries now too. I have seen the error in my humble opinions. Are one of you guys running for pres? That way I can vote for you, perhaps get some bumper stickers or something... bake sale? Count me in!!

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 08:21 PM

No really, I'm on board with you guys. I love the crazy countries now too. I have seen the error in my humble opinions. Are one of you guys running for pres? That way I can vote for you, perhaps get some bumper stickers or something... bake sale? Count me in!!

OK, I should have known better than to try and engage in any kind of debate with a master of ideas and language such as yourself. I mean obviously, your ideas are so great, that they are unfit for human eyes. Or maybe my stupid, evil regime supporting, heretic eyes just can't see the brilliant retort that you typed out in response to my question because I'm not worthy. Could somebody please translate the invisible response into "hippy" for me?
Thanks.

I think I just got SERVED!

I'll go back to arguing with the wall now, it's not as smart as you.
:rolleyes:

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 08:27 PM

OK, I should have known better than to try and engage in any kind of debate with a master of ideas and language such as yourself. I mean obviously, your ideas are so great, that they are unfit for human eyes. Or maybe my stupid, evil regime supporting, heretic eyes just can't see the brilliant retort that you typed out in response to my question because I'm not worthy. Could somebody please translate the invisible response into "hippy" for me?
Thanks.

I think I just got SERVED!

I'll go back to arguing with the wall now, it's not as smart as you.
:rolleyes:

FOr you information, the wall is WAY smarter than me!!!

I just call things how I see them and unless you have more than wacked out theories about a biased media and all that other shit, I say a lot of countries are crazy. AND why isn't more attention focused on how they treat their citizens???

bilbo

08-25-2004, 08:33 PM

Nice job TheWedge!
own3d
(y)

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 08:39 PM

So that absolves you from answering my question?
Where does it end? Do we just keep on liberatin' until the world is like us?

Why is Iran any different than any other number of countries that mistreats it's citizens? Or Iraq for that matter?

How do you know that the majority of Iranians aren't happy with their system? Who are we to tell another country how to govern itself?

You call 'em like you see 'em? Or do you call 'em like your commanding officers tell you to see 'em?

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 08:48 PM

You call 'em like you see 'em? Or do you call 'em like your commanding officers tell you to see 'em?

that's cute...
For your info, it's illegal for anyone in our chain to try to push there political religious...ANY opinion like that on us.

NOW are YOU saying that iranians like being oppressed the way they are??? And are you saying that if they got a nuke, they wouldn't use it quick like on maybe Israel??? I mean, Iran already funds the Hammas outlook posts that trade shots with the Israelies all the time... (the Israelies are crazy too). So an evil govt who fund terrorists and is trying to get a nuke.... yeah let's not do anything about that...

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 09:01 PM

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 09:10 PM

I'm sure that since it's illegal, it never happens.

Well, you still didn't answer my question to you, but I'll take a stab at yours anyway.
No, I am not saying Iranians like being "opressed" that way. I'm saying that their system has been in place far longer than ours, and not living there myself, I couldn't say for sure that the majority of Iranians are unhappy with their government.

If Iran wants to nuke Israel, that would be horrible and possibly start world war three. Just like if the US invaded Iran, that could be seen as horrible to many Arabs and possibly lead to world war three.

I'll ask this one more time, do you propose invading Iran, then North Korea, then China, etc etc until the world is free of "evil"?

personally... and before you get all jumpy on me THIS is my OPINION.

I think if there is a threat, we should take it out. I think that Iran would definitely use a nuke most likely on Israel... so if they are getting a nuke or already have them, they gotta be stopped by any means. I think north korea is crazy but, kinda scared to do anything even if they already have a nuke (which I doubt) so no real need to invade them besides... they are technically still at war with the south so it's not like they are some peaceful govt only wanting to pick roses. I don't think China is crazy... they probably wouldn't use a nuke on a whim the way I think Iran would...

only my opinion. is that good enough?

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 09:14 PM

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 09:17 PM

Thank you.
I will not get all jumpy.
You have a point, but do we really get to decide who's "crazy" and who's not?
My problem with your opinion is that it supports a "smug" attitude which has garnered all this animosity in the first place.

I guess it ain't really anyone's right to decide, but when you meet a good number of Iranians who fled their country to live in Europe and America and basically anywhere that isn't Iran or the middle east and they talk about how horrible their country was... you kinda put two and two together... I wouldn't feel bad about a war with Iran.

bilbo

08-25-2004, 09:27 PM

Are the North Koreans crazy?

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 10:06 PM

Are the North Koreans crazy?
Their govt is... but basically they are big talk. WHo knows what will happen wth them in the future?

TheWedge

08-25-2004, 10:12 PM

I guess it ain't really anyone's right to decide, but when you meet a good number of Iranians who fled their country to live in Europe and America and basically anywhere that isn't Iran or the middle east and they talk about how horrible their country was... you kinda put two and two together... I wouldn't feel bad about a war with Iran.

I've met a lot of Americans who moved to Canada, Australia, and some who went to Europe, because they think America is sad and crazy.
Those people didn't like the system and they left. That doesn't mean someone should overthrow our government.
Is there a massive number of people fleeing Iran?

bilbo

08-25-2004, 10:13 PM

Their govt is... but basically they are big talk. WHo knows what will happen wth them in the future?

They have nukes. I think they are more of a threat than Iran. Should we "take care" of them in your opinion?

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 10:48 PM

I've met a lot of Americans who moved to Canada, Australia, and some who went to Europe, because they think America is sad and crazy.
Those people didn't like the system and they left. That doesn't mean someone should overthrow our government.
Is there a massive number of people fleeing Iran?

I believe there is a massive amount of Iranians leaving and even more that want to. It isn't really the same thing to compare American expats to people fleeing for their lives and for a chance to have a successful future and for the chance to live the way they want to live... free.

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 10:50 PM

They have nukes. I think they are more of a threat than Iran. Should we "take care" of them in your opinion?

No way are they more of a threat than Iran.

Ace42

08-25-2004, 10:56 PM

Released through the Freedom of Information act, the study, Essentials of Post-Cold War Deterrence, "shows how the United States shifted its deterrent strategy from the defunct Soviet Union to so-called rogue states such as Iraq, Libya, Cuba and North Korea," AP reports. The study advocates that the U.S. exploit its nuclear arsenal to portray itself as "irrational and vindictive if its vital interests are attacked." That "should be a part of the national persona we project to all adversaries," particularly the "rogue states." "It hurts to portray ourselves as too fully rational and cool-headed," let alone committed to such silliness as international law and treaty obligations. "The fact that some elements" of the U.S. government "may appear to be potentially ‘out of control’ can be beneficial to creating and reinforcing fears and doubts within the minds of an adversary’s decision makers." The report resurrects Nixon’s "madman theory": our enemies should recognize that we are crazed and unpredictable, with extraordinary destructive force at our command, so they will bend to our will in fear. The concept was apparently devised in Israel in the 1950s by the governing Labor Party, whose leaders "preached in favor of acts of madness," Prime Minister Moshe Sharett records in his diary, warning that "we will go crazy" ("nishtagea") if crossed, a "secret weapon" aimed in part against the U.S., not considered sufficiently reliable at the time. In the hands of the world’s sole superpower, which regards itself as an outlaw state and is subject to few constraints from elites within, that stance poses no small problem for the world.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

I think labeling a country "insane" puts you on very thin ice, Tony.

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 10:58 PM

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

I think labeling a country "insane" puts you on very thin ice, Tony.

DAMN YOU DUKE BOYS!!! (shakes my fist in the air!!)

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:00 PM

No way are they more of a threat than Iran.

Why not, because they are not Aye-rabs :rolleyes:

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:04 PM

Why not, because they are not Aye-rabs :rolleyes:

WHO said that?! I already stated, I believe Iran would use a nuke before anyone would... it has nothing to do with race... I hope you learn to see past skin color one day ;)

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:09 PM

WHO said that?! I already stated, I believe Iran would use a nuke before anyone would... it has nothing to do with race... I hope you learn to see past skin color one day ;)

Who says Iran has nukes? North Korea has them already and Kim Jong-Il appears to be crazier than any Iranian I have seen or heard. What's your criteria for craziness, or are you just talking out of your ass? :confused:

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:26 PM

Who says Iran has nukes? North Korea has them already and Kim Jong-Il appears to be crazier than any Iranian I have seen or heard. What's your criteria for craziness, or are you just talking out of your ass? :confused:

You know damn well Iran is trying to get a nuke. You should also know that the Iranian govt supports terrorism... unless you want to tell me that giving money to Hamas doesn't count. North Korea is all talk. If they got nukes then that strengthens my opinion even more. I believe the Iran would use that nuke quick like and then where would you be, defending Iran??? Israel could look at Iran the wrong way and then BOOM!! And you know Israel will try to provoke some shit anyway. You want us to go to war with north korea or something? It's just like you people, mad because America is fighting and then mad because America isn't fighting enough....

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:37 PM

You know damn well Iran is trying to get a nuke. You should also know that the Iranian govt supports terrorism... unless you want to tell me that giving money to Hamas doesn't count. North Korea is all talk. If they got nukes then that strengthens my opinion even more. I believe the Iran would use that nuke quick like and then where would you be, defending Iran??? Israel could look at Iran the wrong way and then BOOM!! And you know Israel will try to provoke some shit anyway. You want us to go to war with north korea or something? It's just like you people, mad because America is fighting and then mad because America isn't fighting enough....

What do you base the belief that Iran would use their nukes quick and that North Korea is "all talk"? :confused: Do either of them have a nuclear track record you're tapping into? What does giving money to Hamas have to do with nukes? Who is "you people"?

If you cannot handle questions, quit posting stupid shit like "Iran is crazier than so and so" Either that or post something substantive to back up your bravado.:rolleyes:

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:40 PM

What do you base the belief that Iran would use their nukes quick and that North Korea is "all talk"? :confused: Do either of them have a nuclear track record you're tapping into? What does giving money to Hamas have to do with nukes? Who is "you people"?

If you cannot handle questions, quit posting stupid shit like "Iran is crazier than so and so" Either that or post something substantive to back up your bravado.:rolleyes:

GOD you are annoying. Iran funds terrorism... they are looking to get a bigger weapon... TO DO WHAT WITH?!?!? Put 2 and 2 together. By you people I mean the same people who whine all day about EVERYTHING!!!
SO tell me, Iran gets the weapon, no one does anything, iran uses the weapon... what do YOU do then???

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:45 PM

GOD you are annoying. Iran funds terrorism... they are looking to get a bigger weapon... TO DO WHAT WITH?!?!? Put 2 and 2 together. By you people I mean the same people who whine all day about EVERYTHING!!!
SO tell me, Iran gets the weapon, no one does anything, iran uses the weapon... what do YOU do then???

Why am I annoying? Is it because you have been caught in some major inconsistencies? What would you do if those "all talk" North Koreans fired off a nuke? We funded Bin Laden during the Reagan years, does that make the US a crazy nation in your opinion?
In all seriousness, you should probably just quit while you're behind here. :rolleyes:

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:47 PM

Why am I annoying? Is it because you have been caught in some major inconsistencies? What would you do if those "all talk" North Koreans fired off a nuke?
In all seriousness, you should probably just quit while you're behind here. :rolleyes:

No answer my questions. I played your games now answer my honest questions.

Besides in case you haven't noticed, if the North were to start anything... WE ARE ALREADY HERE!!! They would definitely have to think more than once.

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:49 PM

SO tell me, Iran gets the weapon, no one does anything, iran uses the weapon... what do YOU do then???

well???

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:52 PM

.Besides in case you haven't noticed, if the North were to start anything... WE ARE ALREADY HERE!!! .

Why would that matter? One push of the button and South Korea is nothing more than a smoldering memory.

Tone Capone

08-25-2004, 11:53 PM

Why would that matter? One push of the button and South Korea is nothing more than a smoldering memory.

SO tell me, Iran gets the weapon, no one does anything, iran uses the weapon... what do YOU do then???

My question first.

paulk

08-25-2004, 11:57 PM

Nigga please. Look at the cold war. Iran won't use no nukes. They would sell them to Mr. Laden though.

bilbo

08-25-2004, 11:59 PM

As soon as you establish the fact that Iran is a nuclear threat, then we can discuss your hypothetical scenario.

Honestly now, are you even going to try to answer my questions regarding a proven nuclear threat, North Korea, or are you going to keep dodging them ad nauseam :rolleyes:

bilbo

08-26-2004, 12:05 AM

I think we have just proven you don't know what you're talking about.
Better luck next time pal. :D
Nighty-night :p

Tone Capone

08-26-2004, 12:06 AM

Tone Capone

08-26-2004, 12:12 AM

Answer the question...

DroppinScience

08-26-2004, 12:51 AM

Somebody better answer something. The thread is gettin' too long. :p

D_Raay

08-26-2004, 01:26 AM

The United States is the only nation that has used nuclear weapons.
As for WMD's the only ones used have been bought from us.

TheWedge

08-26-2004, 04:38 AM

I'll answer your question.
If Iran aquies a nuke, and then uses it agianst Israel, I'm sure the UN will be all over their ass. I'm sure we will be right there with them and they will get bombed into oblivion. I'm also fairly certain that Iran knows this, and would be VERY hesitant to use a nuke. Thus, making them, "all talk".

Now your turn.

How is Iran funding Hamas any different than the US funding Bin Laden?
As for us being "already there" in North Korea, aren't we really already in the middle east as well?
Why do we even participate in the UN, if we are just going to do their job all on our own?

Lets see, the US not only has aquired a nuke (or 2 :D ), but we have actually shown our insanity by dropping 2 of them. We have funded terrorists all over the world, and a good percentage of our population is angry with the current administration.
Quick, somebody invade us!

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 07:45 AM

Ay yo homeboy, I'm not the one who started throwing the rocks at people who don't see things their way. I didn't bring up the dick eating until I was called a dumbass and a coward and some other shit, so just remember that.

That's a real gift you have, having such deep insight into someone you've never met before just by skimming over his posts.

You keep making the groundless assumption that I wouldn't die for a good reason. Well, I guess maybe not groundless, because the only people worth their flesh around here are you and Tone Capone. Not us slimy, incompetent civilians, who for some stupid reason never volunteered for the military. Right?

And you bring up my freedom to sit on my ass and complain while big strong brave men like yourself go out and die everyday to protect that freedom. I'm not quite sure how valuable that freedom is when at any moment, Mr. Sam can drag us out of our homes and throw us into a sort of meat grinder, if you will.

*Ay Yo Dog* (I hope that's right)
I don't understand your fear of getting drafted at the moment. I think you're kind of overexaggerating it with all this talk of being thrown into the meat grinder. As far as formulating an opinion of you by reading your posts, well I'm sorry about that I just assumed you meant what you said and made my opinions based on your comments. I never called you slimy or incompetent and I'll just ignore the rest. You really didn't have a point in this post that I can see

If they take you to court for not registering I hope you have a defense better than this.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 07:47 AM

SWEET! I AM going to quit paying taxes.

I registered when I was 18, so I've done all that is required of me to enjoy my freedom.

YAY!! Bring on the freedom. (good thing I don't want to marry another man, or smoke marijuana though)

I'm sorry I forgot to include Die and pay taxes. Bring on the freedom indeed.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 08:00 AM

Getting drafted has nothing to do with defending anything. Furthermore, it is insane to suggest that the best way to ensure personal freedom is to give it up.

Where does all this talk of the draft come from? Just because there is a war going on does not mean that the American Military is going to start drafting people. Registering with the selective service is done in times of peace as well.
In order to defend freedom you must be WILLING to give it up, To ensure freedom for future generations. It's called selfless service. The military is a socialist organization that exists to ensure that our democratic way of life continues. Voluntary Selfless Service

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 08:02 AM

GMA']Signing up for an orginaztion designed only to take away your freedom is the only way to defend your freedom. How effective the PR is. It's scary and disgusting.

If it wasn't for that "organization" there would be no freedom. The only thing that's scary is that you don't seenm to see a need for it.

Loppfessor

08-26-2004, 08:17 AM

Whois

08-26-2004, 09:18 AM

The United States is the only nation that has used nuclear weapons.
As for WMD's the only ones used have been bought from us.

There is evidence that the Soviet Union used small amounts of chemical weapons on it's own people (Chloropicrin in Georgia - 1989).

FAS.org has a good overview of chemical weapons development:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/intro.htm

Whois

08-26-2004, 09:21 AM

paulk

08-26-2004, 09:26 AM

Anti-draft doesn't mean anti-military, fucktard.

If I was a coward, don't you think I WOULD register, as a conscientious objector, so that I could kick back and cook burgers for all you manly freedom fighters? Because what kind of coward would want to face possible jail time?

Talk about having one's head up one's ass.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 09:30 AM

Whois

08-26-2004, 09:37 AM

Wow every time I come to the political forum I loose more and more respect for humanity. All I can say is that the dude who started this thread is a complete and total fucking idiot. Not to mention a fucking coward. Young people today make me sick. Seriously what would've happened if people thought the way they do today back in the time of WWI and WWII? Our military is a volunteer military and will always be. Half you people have your heads so far up your asses it's not even funny. Celebs and Hollywood losers are anti governement and anti military so it MUST be cool right? You're fucking sheep who are just trying to be cool.

You are an ill informed troll.

Draft (noun) - Compulsory military service.

Compulsory (adj) - Required by rule; "in most schools physical education are compulsory"; "attendance is mandatory"; "required reading".

A draft is not voluntary, and the US military has not always been volunteer.

A (very) short history of the draft in America:

During the Civil War, both the Confederacy and the Union instituted a military draft. There were many loopholes and the rich could avoid military service by paying $300. In July of 1863, drafted New York workers went on a four-day rampage. The workers feared the Northern jobs they were being forced to leave would later be filled by freed Southern slaves.

During World War I, the draft was reinstated and was immediately challenged on the grounds that it created involuntary servitude (slavery) in violation of the Thirteenth Amendment. In 1918, the Supreme Court rejected that claim. It held Congress, under its constitutional power to declare war and raise and support armies, also had the power to compel military service.

And then the draft was again reinstated during World War II, and from 1948 to 1973 because of the (undeclared) wars in Korea and Vietnam.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, President Jimmy Carter asked Congress to reactivate draft registration, not only for men, but also for women. In response, Congress passed the Military Selective Service Act requiring only men to register. Men claimed the act was discriminatory and denied them rights guaranteed under the Fifth Amendment. In 1981, the Supreme Court denied their claim holding that Congress could require that only men register and be drafted.

The newly introduced Universal National Service Act would require registration and service by both men and women, ages 18 through 25. And college attendance would no longer be an excuse for deferment.

p.s. Read my sig.

Whois

08-26-2004, 09:44 AM

Where is this draft comming from? there is no draft. Would you have a problem registering if it were peace time?

How about this:

The Universal National Service Act of 2003
Introduced by Representative Rangel and Senator Hollings

The Rangel-Hollings legislation (H.R. 163 in the House and S.89 in the Senate) would re-institute a draft to compulsory military or alternative national service for men and women, aged 18 to 26, who are citizens or permanent residents of the United States of America.

The bill:

Defines "national service" as either military or civilian service as defined by the President that promotes national or homeland security.

Gives the President authority to establish the numbers of persons to be selected for military service and the means of selection.

Requires those not selected for military service to perform their national service obligation in a civilian capacity for the same duration as those selected for military service (two years in most cases).

Directs the President to prescribe the regulations necessary to carry out the Act, including:

types of civilian service eligible to meet the national service requirement;

means and manner of induction to service;

criteria for eligibility for service;

criteria for exemption from service;

all other administrative matters in connection with induction of persons under this Act and the registration, examination and classification of such persons.

Allows the President to use for the purposes of the Act the procedures provided in the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C.App. 451 et seq.) including procedures for registration, selection, and induction but specifically requires the registration and selection for national service of women as well as men and seeks to strictly limit the grounds for exemption from national service to physical disability and consciencious objection.

Allows educational deferments for High School, but only until age 20.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 09:50 AM

Ace42

08-26-2004, 09:52 AM

Iran funds terrorism... they are looking to get a bigger weapon... TO DO WHAT WITH?!?!? Put 2 and 2 together. By you people I mean the same people who whine all day about EVERYTHING!!!
SO tell me, Iran gets the weapon, no one does anything, iran uses the weapon... what do YOU do then???

Now replace the word "Iran" with "the US" and you have the perfect justification for every single country in the world (coalition countries included) attacking the US.

Ace42

08-26-2004, 09:59 AM

I find it interesting that you think soldiers are war mongers No one wants war, put foolish is the nation who is not prepared for it. It would probably be better if the Gov. passed a law requiring men at age 18 to serve two years. This would alleviate a lot of this rediculous bickering

And I thought we had laid this to rest in the other thread. If no-one wants war, how come Dubbyah was pushing for war in Iraq *before* Sept 11th? If no-one wants war, how come Bush and Blair decided to go against the piles of evidence suggesting that Saddam had no significant WMDs, and invade his country anyway? How come they went against their OWN CLAIMS that their methods of containment were working fine?

"No-one wants war" is a false assumption, and if your opinion is in any way coloured by that naive belief, you really want to rethink your position.

Whois

08-26-2004, 10:08 AM

Nice name calling> Your sig. Is an opinion.

This proves nothing. I find it interesting that you think soldiers are war mongers No one wants war, put foolish is the nation who is not prepared for it. It would probably be better if the Gov. passed a law requiring men at age 18 to serve two years. This would alleviate a lot of this rediculous bickering

I didn't call YOU anything, although I will now (idiot)...I never said I think soldiers are war mongers.

What name calling? troll?? The post was clearly meant to be inflammatory, so I labeled it as such.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 10:13 AM

And I thought we had laid this to rest in the other thread. If no-one wants war, how come Dubbyah was pushing for war in Iraq *before* Sept 11th? If no-one wants war, how come Bush and Blair decided to go against the piles of evidence suggesting that Saddam had no significant WMDs, and invade his country anyway? How come they went against their OWN CLAIMS that their methods of containment were working fine?

"No-one wants war" is a false assumption, and if your opinion is in any way coloured by that naive belief, you really want to rethink your position.

I'm sorry , should I not have spoken up again? My original comments were in response to Paulk not wanting to register for selective service because he is afraid.
I am not attempting to defend the actions of politicians. My argument centers around responsibility of the the individual citizen. My narrow minded approach is that he should register. When I stated "no one wants war" I was basically referring to the average Joe, the guy who's responsibility it is to register. Of course world leaders want war. It increases revenues if waged properly and in this case a significant hold on the world's #2 oil producing nation. THe fact that there was also an evil dictator there just made it more (presumably) easy to digest.

Ace42

08-26-2004, 10:21 AM

I am not attempting to defend the actions of politicians. My argument centers around responsibility of the the individual citizen (...) When I stated "no one wants war" I was basically referring to the average Joe, the guy who's responsibility it is to register. Of course world leaders want war.

I see, the problem is as much as you want to, you cannot divorce politicians from the people. "No-one wants to go to war" - but yet you went to war. Your country is supposedly a democracy ran *for* the people? If no-one wants war, then clearly there is something very very very wrong with the US's "free society"

If forcing people to go to war they don't believe in isn't in direct violation of the (proclaimed) American ideals, I don't know what is. Surely, if someone disagrees with something, it is their responsibility to oppose it, not just go along with it because it is the done thing? So if they disagree with a war, it is the antithesis of their "duty" to fight in it.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 11:52 AM

I see, the problem is as much as you want to, you cannot divorce politicians from the people. "No-one wants to go to war" - but yet you went to war. Your country is supposedly a democracy ran *for* the people? If no-one wants war, then clearly there is something very very very wrong with the US's "free society"

If forcing people to go to war they don't believe in isn't in direct violation of the (proclaimed) American ideals, I don't know what is. Surely, if someone disagrees with something, it is their responsibility to oppose it, not just go along with it because it is the done thing? So if they disagree with a war, it is the antithesis of their "duty" to fight in it.

Before war can be declared Congress has to approve it. Initially it was believed the reasons for war were warranted. By opposing you vote. If the majority is against you and chooses military action should you become a vigilanti just because you disagree ? disagreeing with a cause or an action does not give you the right to break the law (not register) it is the law. Now until that changes I see no other alternative and opposing and refusing to comply with the law is not an excuse.

Ace42

08-26-2004, 11:59 AM

Before war can be declared Congress has to approve it. Initially it was believed the reasons for war were warranted. By opposing you vote. If the majority is against you and chooses military action should you become a vigilanti just because you disagree ? disagreeing with a cause or an action does not give you the right to break the law (not register) it is the law. Now until that changes I see no other alternative and opposing and refusing to comply with the law is not an excuse.

"Bad rules were made to be broken"

"It is no injustice to break an unjust law."

11. President Bush usurped the Constitutional power of Congress as a means of securing power to commit crimes against peace, war crimes, and other high crimes.

President Bush intentionally usurped Congressional power, ignored its authority, and failed and refused to consult with the Congress. He deliberately misled, deceived, concealed and made false representations to the Congress to prevent its free deliberation and informed exercise of legislature power. President Bush individually ordered a naval blockade against Iraq, itself an act of war. He switched U.S. forces from a wholly defensive position and capability to an offensive capacity for aggression against Iraq without consultation with and contrary to assurances given to the Congress. He secured legislation approving enforcement of UN resolutions vesting absolute discretion in any nation, providing no guidelines and requiring no reporting to the UN, knowing he intended to destroy the ammed forces and civilian economy of Iraq. Those acts were undertaken to enable him to commit crimes against peace and war crimes.

The conduct violates the Constitution and laws of the United States, all committed to engage in the other impeachable offenses set forth in this Complaint.

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11

The US's independance was a criminal act agains the laws of the UK. By your argument, they should've disagreed with UK policy, but stayed part of the empire.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 12:19 PM

"Bad rules were made to be broken"

"It is no injustice to break an unjust law."

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11

The US's independance was a criminal act agains the laws of the UK. By your argument, they should've disagreed with UK policy, but stayed part of the empire.

I see, so you're saying we need a revolt, an all out revolution,against the current American system?
It is possible that those who wish to disagree with the selective service registration requirement could lead revolt. Mabey start off small like the Branch Dividians. I seriously doubt the movement would garner much support as it is no where near comparable to the American Revolution.
Of course I can almost understand why you would think they were both the same

Ace42

08-26-2004, 12:27 PM

I see, so you're saying we need a revolt, an all out revolution,against the current American system?
It is possible that those who wish to disagree with the selective service registration requirement could lead revolt. Mabey start off small like the Branch Dividians. I seriously doubt the movement would garner much support as it is no where near comparable to the American Revolution.
Of course I can almost understand why you would think they were both the same

I am not advocating armed revolt, merely saying that going along with something you are morally opposed to is by definition an immoral act. Simply not doing something you believe is wrong is quite different to leading a revolution for something you believe is right.

Also, "garnering support" is solely related to the popularity of the movement, which has NOTHING to do with morallity or legitimacy, and thus irrelevant.

If the government made it a crime to let ethnic minorities get on with their lives unpersecuted, I would not say "well, I disagree, but I am legally and ethically obliged to go along with my 'duty'"

If fighting for their rights made me a "vigilante", so be it. Such is sometimes the price of doing the right thing.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 12:41 PM

I am not advocating armed revolt, merely saying that going along with something you are morally opposed to is by definition an immoral act. Simply not doing something you believe is wrong is quite different to leading a revolution for something you believe is right.

Also, "garnering support" is solely related to the popularity of the movement, which has NOTHING to do with morallity or legitimacy, and thus irrelevant.

If the government made it a crime to let ethnic minorities get on with their lives unpersecuted, I would not say "well, I disagree, but I am legally and ethically obliged to go along with my 'duty'"

If fighting for their rights made me a "vigilante", so be it. Such is sometimes the price of doing the right thing.

I thought the whole idea was irrelevant in the first place.
Doing the right thing? Since when is upholding the constitution the wrong thing? Since when is defending your country against All enemies foriegn or domestic the wrong thing? If you find it morally wrong to serve in the military there are legal ways around that. There are several organizations in this country that are exempt from military service because of their belief system.
Furthermore what Government would create laws to restrict people based on their race in this day and age? I understand it was an example but couldn't you have come up with something a little closer to the point?
But then again I guess It wouldn't make much since to fight for your right to not fight.

Ace42

08-26-2004, 12:57 PM

I thought the whole idea was irrelevant in the first place.
Doing the right thing? Since when is upholding the constitution the wrong thing? Since when is defending your country against All enemies foriegn or domestic the wrong thing? If you find it morally wrong to serve in the military there are legal ways around that. There are several organizations in this country that are exempt from military service because of their belief system.
Furthermore what Government would create laws to restrict people based on their race in this day and age? I understand it was an example but couldn't you have come up with something a little closer o the point?
But then again I guess It wouldn't make much since to fight for your right to not fight.

Except, as my previous post pointed out, the current President runs roughshod over the constitution. (http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11)

If anything, YOU are advocating a military coup against the current establishment, considering they are more damaging to it (it being an ideological thing) than any invader (a physical thing) ever could be. Your army does not protect you against domestic enemies (Bush is in power, isn't he? He is currently stripping away your constitutional rights, and is quite happy to use the patriot act to remove many other civil liberties too)

You assume that an army must defend your country and constitution. That's what they tell you it is for, but it is not what it is for. Where in the military training are soldiers taught how to protect the constitution? If they were being taught how to uphold the constitution, there would not be abuses such as those at Abu Ghraib occuring, nor would the US army operate in violation of international law (which the US constitution recognises as a "fair and just treaty" and this must be upheld by the US government)

The only possible connection the US army can have with defending US soil *or* the constitution is when they army is SPECIFICALLY ordered to on SPECIFIC operations that are illustrably designed to achieve these goals. They are not, and have not been for decades, so from this we can deduce the army has nothing to do with defence whatsoever. By your argument, someone joining (or being drafted into) the US military could chose to go on "defense" operations and refuse to go on operations which he deems are "not defense related" - this is not the case.

You have no control over the army, and thus cannot conceivably argue what it is fighting for or about.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 01:47 PM

Except, as my previous post pointed out, the current President runs roughshod over the constitution. (http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11)

If anything, YOU are advocating a military coup against the current establishment, considering they are more damaging to it (it being an ideological thing) than any invader (a physical thing) ever could be. Your army does not protect you against domestic enemies (Bush is in power, isn't he? He is currently stripping away your constitutional rights, and is quite happy to use the patriot act to remove many other civil liberties too)

You assume that an army must defend your country and constitution. That's what they tell you it is for, but it is not what it is for. Where in the military training are soldiers taught how to protect the constitution? If they were being taught how to uphold the constitution, there would not be abuses such as those at Abu Ghraib occuring, nor would the US army operate in violation of international law (which the US constitution recognises as a "fair and just treaty" and this must be upheld by the US government)

The only possible connection the US army can have with defending US soil *or* the constitution is when they army is SPECIFICALLY ordered to on SPECIFIC operations that are illustrably designed to achieve these goals. They are not, and have not been for decades, so from this we can deduce the army has nothing to do with defence whatsoever. By your argument, someone joining (or being drafted into) the US military could chose to go on "defense" operations and refuse to go on operations which he deems are "not defense related" - this is not the case.

You have no control over the army, and thus cannot conceivably argue what it is fighting for or about.

So I'm advocating a Coup? I think not. So what your saying is the whole military establishment is only in exsistence to take over other countries, at the whim of it's leader? To be used to intimidate only and not defend? Our interests are global and our allies require that we provide support. Training exercises are a must for any one whether they are a football player or what have you to remain proficient, we strive for excellence so that we will be ready. If you have a strong military countries that don't necessarily like you won't invade you.
The Japanese wouldn't invade us because of our second amendment. (right to keep and bear arms) People who are armed and ready are not easy targets. The days of a ready militia are long gone.
As far as the abuse of the prisoners of war is concerned. I am not advocating that. Military personel are excpected to conduct themselves in a professional manner at all times. The behavior of the soldiers is inexcusable. I do not think a Private should be held soley responsible however. Her NCOs (supervisors) had to have known something about it and I'm sure they will be held accountable as well. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. I do understand that it reflects negatively on the military as a whole but we're under the microscope now so of course there will be negative repercussions.

Ace42

08-26-2004, 01:55 PM

So I'm advocating a Coup? I think not. So what your saying is the whole military establishment is only in exsistence to take over other countries, at the whim of it's leader? To be used to intimidate only and not defend? Our interests are global and our allies require that we provide support.

You personally, as civillian or a soldier, have no say whatsoever over what your military does or doesn't do. To say it is "for defence" is a very selective interpretation, especially as you do not have any input into how it operates. And your argument is that "if it even readily admits it is no longer about offence, while the individual might still disagree, it is their duty to stay signed up and fight." And remember that "interests" is a euphemism for oil wells, I did point that out. And the US army has a habit of shooting its allies out of the sky.

Training exercises are a must for any one whether they are a football player or what have you to remain proficient, we strive for excellence so that we will be ready.

Beside the point.

If you have a strong military countries that don't necessarily like you won't invade you.
The Japanese wouldn't invade us because of our second amendment. (right to keep and bear arms) People who are armed and ready are not easy targets.

And it even deters arabs from flying planes into your buildings or distributing anthrax through your mail. Oh wait, it doesn't.

Military personel are excpected to conduct themselves in a professional manner at all times. The behavior of the soldiers is inexcusable. I do not think a Private should be held soley responsible however. Her NCOs (supervisors) had to have known something about it and I'm sure they will be held accountable as well. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. I do understand that it reflects negatively on the military as a whole but we're under the microscope now so of course there will be negative repercussions.

Unfortunately, it will be a case of "one hand washes the other" I fear. That is how politics works these days.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 02:16 PM

[QUOTE=Ace42]You personally, as civillian or a soldier, have no say whatsoever over what your military does or doesn't do. To say it is "for defence" is a very selective interpretation, especially as you do not have any input into how it operates. And your argument is that "if it even readily admits it is no longer about offence, while the individual might still disagree, it is their duty to stay signed up and fight." And remember that "interests" is a euphemism for oil wells, I did point that out. And the US army has a habit of shooting its allies out of the sky.
Shoots what allies out of the sky?

And it even deters arabs from flying planes into your buildings or distributing anthrax through your mail. Oh wait, it doesn't.

That was a cold and unnecessary

Ace42

08-26-2004, 02:25 PM

Shoots what allies out of the sky?

Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main and Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams were both killed on 23 March when their RAF GR4 Tornado aircraft was downed by a US Patriot missile close to the Kuwaiti border.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3847051.stm

Not to mention the footage of John Simpson (BBC reporter) running away from his clearly marked press convoy when it got attacked by an A-10 everyone in the UK got to see.

That was a cold and unnecessary

Merely illustrating that you should think a bit more carefully about what forms of defence you consider to be "obsolete" and which "necessary" - all this posturing about "military strength" is illustrably meaningless.

The truth hurts. Sorry.

ChrisLove

08-26-2004, 02:44 PM

With regard to the friendly fire business, I have a couple of friends in the RAF and the army and there is a distinct attitude in the British military that one is far more at risk from the Americans than from the enemy. RAF pilots often refuse to fly near American positions and soldiers try to stay well clear. The Americans have a reputation for shooting first and identifying the target later.

100% ILL

08-26-2004, 02:57 PM

No need to apologize if you meant it. While I would like to think that our allies did not gleen some sort of satisfaction from the terrorist attacks, it seems many do exhibit that "you got what was comming to you" mentality.
Militia as an only form of military is obsolete, hence the national guard. Terrorism is the ultimate form of Kamakazie gorilla warfare. Very difficult to guard against.

Loppfessor

08-27-2004, 03:40 AM

You are an ill informed troll.

Draft (noun) - Compulsory military service.

Compulsory (adj) - Required by rule; "in most schools physical education are compulsory"; "attendance is mandatory"; "required reading".

A draft is not voluntary, and the US military has not always been volunteer.

A (very) short history of the draft in America:

During the Civil War, both the Confederacy and the Union instituted a military draft. There were many loopholes and the rich could avoid military service by paying $300. In July of 1863, drafted New York workers went on a four-day rampage. The workers feared the Northern jobs they were being forced to leave would later be filled by freed Southern slaves.

During World War I, the draft was reinstated and was immediately challenged on the grounds that it created involuntary servitude (slavery) in violation of the Thirteenth Amendment. In 1918, the Supreme Court rejected that claim. It held Congress, under its constitutional power to declare war and raise and support armies, also had the power to compel military service.

And then the draft was again reinstated during World War II, and from 1948 to 1973 because of the (undeclared) wars in Korea and Vietnam.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, President Jimmy Carter asked Congress to reactivate draft registration, not only for men, but also for women. In response, Congress passed the Military Selective Service Act requiring only men to register. Men claimed the act was discriminatory and denied them rights guaranteed under the Fifth Amendment. In 1981, the Supreme Court denied their claim holding that Congress could require that only men register and be drafted.

The newly introduced Universal National Service Act would require registration and service by both men and women, ages 18 through 25. And college attendance would no longer be an excuse for deferment.

p.s. Read my sig.

Well thanks so much for the history lesson but if you read what I wrote, "Our military is a volunteer military and will always be" I never said anything about the past. I said "always will be" implying future tense. Currently the Air Force and Navy are overmanned and are actually allowing people to get out early or even cross-train into the Army. It's true the Army and Marine's recruiting and retention numbers are low but there is still absolutely no chance of a draft as long as there are still people willing to serve their country.

ps read this....suck my balls

Whois

08-27-2004, 08:03 AM

Well thanks so much for the history lesson but if you read what I wrote, "Our military is a volunteer military and will always be" I never said anything about the past. I said "always will be" implying future tense. Currently the Air Force and Navy are overmanned and are actually allowing people to get out early or even cross-train into the Army. It's true the Army and Marine's recruiting and retention numbers are low but there is still absolutely no chance of a draft as long as there are still people willing to serve their country.

ps read this....suck my balls

Well, given the current actions by Congress it won't be for long.

BTW, I'm sure all the troops stuck in the military under stop-loss would agree with you that they're still in voluntarily...right?

What balls?

paulk

08-27-2004, 11:29 AM

Said Ayn Rand in a 1964 interview with Playboy:

"As to the draft, it is improper and unconstitutional. It is a violation of fundamental rights, of a man's right to his own life. No man has the right to send another man to fight and die for his, the sender's, cause. A country has no right to force men into involuntary servitude. Armies should be strictly voluntary; and as military authorities will tell you, volunteer armies are the best armies."

Word to Ayn Rand.

bb_bboy

08-27-2004, 11:46 AM

PERSPECTIVE - PART I (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1414033.stm)

PERSPECTIVE - PART II (http://www.xs4all.nl/~ecco/servicetimes.html)

PERSPECTIVE - PART III (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR010021997)

Loppfessor

08-30-2004, 01:27 AM

Well, given the current actions by Congress it won't be for long.

BTW, I'm sure all the troops stuck in the military under stop-loss would agree with you that they're still in voluntarily...right?

What balls?

Stop-loss is a part of being in the military. It's not something they hide from you when you join or anything like that. In fact even when you get out they can still call you back within a set number of years. It's all in the contract that each person signs when they join or re-enlist.

Whois

08-30-2004, 09:07 AM

Stop-loss is a part of being in the military. It's not something they hide from you when you join or anything like that. In fact even when you get out they can still call you back within a set number of years. It's all in the contract that each person signs when they join or re-enlist.

Funny how they (the military) lied and told me and everyone else I know who signed up that stop-loss would only be used in time of war...

Hint: War has not been declared by this country since 1941.

100% ILL

08-30-2004, 09:20 AM

Funny how they (the military) lied and told me and everyone else I know who signed up that stop-loss would only be used in time of war...

Hint: War has not been declared by this country since 1941.

You signed up and your E.T.S. date has come and gone and you can't leave? What did you sign up for?

Loppfessor

08-31-2004, 08:03 AM

Funny how they (the military) lied and told me and everyone else I know who signed up that stop-loss would only be used in time of war...

Hint: War has not been declared by this country since 1941.

Wow you're really reachin on that one pal. My advice would be to suck it up and quit being sucha crybaby.

D_Raay

09-09-2004, 02:46 PM

WOW! You are stupid!

there's really not going to be a draft anytime soon. EVERYONE knows that the volunteer force is the best way to go and there are plenty of those around... including myself.

you're just making things difficult for yourself because you want to feel cool by telling everyone how you are "stickin it to the man". That's lame. (n)
Honestly, just fill out the form and don't cause complications for yourself down the road.. you ain't gonna get drafted, dumbass.
One thing George W. Bush forgot to mention at the Republican National Convention was that, if reelected, he would soon bring back the military draft.
• “[VP Cheney] has said the US is considering military or other action against ‘40 to 50 countries’ and warns that the new war may last 50 years or more.”-- John Pilger, Daily Mirror, 1/29/02
• “We've failed to convince our allies to send troops, we've extended deployments so morale is sinking, and the president is saying we can't cut and run. So what's left? …at some point, we're going to need more troops, and at that point the only way to get them will be a return to the draft.”-- Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), Salon.com, 11/3/03
• “We're not going to reimplement a draft. There is no need for it at all.”-- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/7/03 (Translated: “The draft will start right after Bush is reelected.”)
• “Pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills S 89 and HR 163) would time the program so the draft could begin at early as Spring 2005 -- conveniently just after the 2004 presidential election!”-- Adam Stutz, Project Censored, 1/28/04
• “A little-noticed provision in a new federal education law requires high schools to provide names, addresses, and phone numbers of students to military recruiters. Schools that refuse to comply face losing federal education funding under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.”-- Boston Globe, 11/21/02 (Now you know what they mean by “No Child Left Behind”.)
• “$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. SSS must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation.”-- Adam Stutz, Project Censored, 1/28/04
So, if you are of draft age or you have children or grandchildren of draft age, or you care about someone of draft age; in other words—everyone—vote for John Kerry and send Bush back to Texas before he can do any more harm. His military misadventures have already caused thousands of deaths and torn apart the lives of tens of thousands of military families.

• “If you have a child who will be fourteen years old in the next few months, they could be on the battlefield before the end of a second Bush term.”-- Charles Cutter, Magic City Morning Star, 7/8//04