Euro Bush Bashing...

[Loppfessor]

Now usually I don't really hang out here in the political forum but I'd like to share an observation with you guys and see what you think. I'm an American who very recently moved to Europe (Germany) and I've noticed something. I am staying in a hotel off-base and only get German TV along with one CNN Europe channel. I have noticed that the media here seems to really have it in for President Bush. I mean whenever the speak about him they get this tone is their voice as if to show distain. Often times they don't refer to him as President Bush either, it's "Mr Bush" but mostly just "George W Bush" I dunno I wish I could better explain what I'm talking about but I just get an overall sense of disprespect for the American President from the European media....your thoughts?

[TheWedge]

I guess you have to earn respect. :cool:

[Funkaloyd]

Often times they don't refer to him as President Bush either

Probably because he isn't the president of Europe or Germany.

[Funkaloyd]

Exactly. Many BBC reporters a different tone when speaking of Robert Mugabe. Shouldn't they?

[Señor Stino]

pfft euro bush "bashing", he's called president bush, g w bush , or something else in media, there is no patern or something

he gets a lot of criticism, true, but I noticed that the documentaries with the strongest anti-american or anti-bush stories are most of the time BBC documentaries.

anyway, if he doesn't get that much critic in the us media, there is something wrong. there should always be a healthy dose of self-criticism.
I mean, our TV is even controlled and paid for by the state, and they "bash" the gouvernment on frequent occasions. so it must be possible for a privat channel aswell.

[Ace42]

Often times they don't refer to him as President Bush either, it's "Mr Bush" but mostly just "George W Bush" I dunno I wish I could better explain what I'm talking about but I just get an overall sense of disprespect for the American President from the European media....your thoughts?

In the UK we don't call our PM "Primeminister Blair" or "MP Blair" - it is probably just a cultural convention. Check how they refer to other world leaders. As for disrespect, that probably is due to him being an amoral sociopath who has flouted international law with such blatant disregard that a lot of right thinking people wouldn't expect it from a Middle-Eastern dictatorship.

[ChrisLove]

Now usually I don't really hang out here in the political forum but I'd like to share an observation with you guys and see what you think. I'm an American who very recently moved to Europe (Germany) and I've noticed something. I am staying in a hotel off-base and only get German TV along with one CNN Europe channel. I have noticed that the media here seems to really have it in for President Bush. I mean whenever the speak about him they get this tone is their voice as if to show distain. Often times they don't refer to him as President Bush either, it's "Mr Bush" but mostly just "George W Bush" I dunno I wish I could better explain what I'm talking about but I just get an overall sense of disprespect for the American President from the European media....your thoughts?


With regard to the title of president, I think that is convention, as Ace says, here in the UK the PM is often refferred to as just Tony Blair rather than Prime Minister Blair which is what he seems to be called in the states. It seems to me at least on British media that Bush is often refferred to as President Bush.

I would imagine you would find that most of the world has no respect for Bush as a president though, you will find little support for him outside of the Republican party I believe. Its not against Americans, Clinton was widely respected around the world and a state visit by him was a great honour for the recipiant country. When Bush goes anywhere he is generally greated by mass demonstrations. In fact Clinton still gets great receptions around the world I think?

Just my observation

[Loppfessor]

Interesting stuff everyone. I guess I can see what your saying bout the culture differences. But I know when they refer to like the German Pres, that Schroeder guy sorry I can't recall his name. It's totally different. I dunno I guess whether you love him or hate him it's the office he holds that deems respect. I mean as a person I think Clinton is an absoulte disgrace but he was still the president and deserved respect. If I ever met him I would have to show him that respect too.

[Señor Stino]

if you think we all need to show respect because he is the president of the usa, (which might be partially right), you should also know the NAME of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, if you move to a country.

[GreenEarthAl]

That's a very authoritarian viewpoint you have there. Respecting a person for no other reason than the office they hold.

I have little respect for Bill Clinton. My own guess is that he's a serial sexual assaulter (if not rapist) and I don't care for the way his administration doubled the prison population and disproportionately put black people in jail and caved to the Republican welfare reform which lead in many ways to the extreme poverty that is now being faced by many (particularly women and children).

I have no respect at all for George Bush. I think he has unleashed an ecological nightmare domestically. And abroad I think he has needlessly initiated wars of aggression that have killed many thousands of innocent people and a thousand U.S. servicement and lied about the reasons for doing so. Then covered his lies with more propaganda and PR. I see nothing about him that is worthy of my respect.

Most people that I pass day to day on the street are more worthy of respect and would make a more empathetic president.

[100% ILL]

politician = rich guy, rich guy no care about average income/poor guy. Never has never will. They try only to occaisonally appease us to keep the money machine rolling. Just out of curiosity how much of a percentage of your money (Europeans, or any other country for that matter) goes to taxes?

[ChrisLove]

I think in Britain the average tax bill is about 38% of income (that includes all the stealth taxes, council taxes and stuff)

Its higher in Europe, I think 45% in France and like 50% in germany (At least this was the case 5 years ago).

In terms of top rate, Britain is 40% Germany 51% and France 60%.

[Parkey]

I'm always amused when I hear them say Primeminister Blair on US TV. It just sounds so wrong to give the title everytime they are mentioned.

[Ace42]

That's a very authoritarian viewpoint you have there. Respecting a person for no other reason than the office they hold.

Indeed, would you say Hitler deserved respect because of the office he held?

[Señor Stino]

I think in Britain the average tax bill is about 38% of income (that includes all the stealth taxes, council taxes and stuff)

Its higher in Europe, I think 45% in France and like 50% in germany (At least this was the case 5 years ago).

In terms of top rate, Britain is 40% Germany 51% and France 60%.

update !, Britain = part of Europe

anyway, I think in most European countries the total tax bill will be something of a 45% - 50% of income , for sure if you include all the additional taxes.

what's that number in the US? I would guess it is lower, but then again, what do I know?

[ChrisLove]

update !, Britain = part of Europe

anyway, I think in most European countries the total tax bill will be something of a 45% - 50% of income , for sure if you include all the additional taxes.

what's that number in the US? I would guess it is lower, but then again, what do I know?

*Checks map* Doh! your right sorry (I meant rest of Europe :rolleyes: )

I know the top rate in the US (at least until recently) was about 45% so I would guess the average to be in the low 40s but I dont really know.

[100% ILL]

About 36% for me personally.

[Loppfessor]

if you think we all need to show respect because he is the president of the usa, (which might be partially right), you should also know the NAME of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, if you move to a country.

Cut me some slack man I've only been here a week and a half.

[Loppfessor]

Indeed, would you say Hitler deserved respect because of the office he held?

I think you're really reaching on that one. To compare the two really isn't fair. Becomming president of the US is no easy task, and as a US citizen and member of the military I should have respect for the leader of our nation.

[Señor Stino]

I think you're really reaching on that one. To compare the two really isn't fair. Becomming president of the US is no easy task, and as a US citizen and member of the military I should have respect for the leader of our nation.


you serious?

what has GW Bush done, HIMSELF to become president of usa?, really , tell me
probably not much more than being born son of George Bush, and that isnt something that deserves credit.

at first, i thought you were right about respecting the president, but in fact, you couldn't be more wrong

[Loppfessor]

you serious?

what has GW Bush done, HIMSELF to become president of usa?, really , tell me
probably not much more than being born son of George Bush, and that isnt something that deserves credit.

at first, i thought you were right about respecting the president, but in fact, you couldn't be more wrong

you're probably right cus I'm sure he just popped out of his mom and everyone was like "oh you're going to be president too" cus that happens all the time since every former president's son has also gone on to become president simply by virtue of being born into it.

[Señor Stino]

then answer my question :-)

what effort, that we should ALL respect, has the man done to become the president of the usa? (or efforts, to gain extra respect)

[Ace42]

I think you're really reaching on that one. To compare the two really isn't fair. Becomming president of the US is no easy task, and as a US citizen and member of the military I should have respect for the leader of our nation.

Why? Because Hitler was the leader of an evil country and Dubbyah is the leader of a 'free' one?

Let me guess, becoming the leader of Germany, and then invading the majority of Europe is an "easy task" and thus less deserving of respect than getting a bunch of hicks to vote for you using lies and propaganda?

Why on Earth should comparing one world leader with another be "reaching" ? Because Hitler was in power less than a life-time ago? Because he spoke a different language?

Hitler was not some fictional character like King Arthur. To say "oh, that couldn't happen, not to us" is to be naive. Just going "He mentioned the most evil man in history, so he can't have a point!!!" is significantly *LESS* objective than bringing up Hitler.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." John P. Curran

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[Señor Stino]

checkmate

[ChrisLove]

I guess being in the military, having respect for the president ie commander in chief is fairly essential. I imagine that kind of thing is drummed into soldiers from day 1. I think the same goes on in all militaries.

I think Bush deserves some credit for reaching the position of president, it was probably easier for him than it would have been for others but it is still no small feat. Its not enough for him to have free unearned respect though in my opinion.

Merely respecting a guy because of the office he holds would seem to be illogical, or even because achieving the office was difficult. Going back to Hitler, his rise to power is nothing short of astonishing, I recall from history lessons that he went from being a lay person to leader of a political party to leader of Germany in a stunningly short period of time. Kind of like me deciding now to be Prime Minister, starting some public speaking events tomorrow, becoming leader of the Liberal Democrats by about March and then leading them to victory in the next General Election. Still if I did all that and then starting randomly killing people I would not expect to be respected.

[100% ILL]

The idea is the Office has respect. In the military they used to say you're not saluting the man, you're saluting his rank. I think the same should apply to an elected world leader. If he is not good the people will vote him out.

[Ace42]

The idea is the Office has respect. In the military they used to say you're not saluting the man, you're saluting his rank. I think the same should apply to an elected world leader. If he is not good the people will vote him out.

Like they voted out Hitler?

[100% ILL]

Like they voted out Hitler?

They didn't have a chance he didn't show up for the next election.

[Ace42]

They didn't have a chance he didn't show up for the next election.

January 30, 1933 becomes Chancellor of Germany

April 30, 1945 commits suicide in the Berlin bunker

That's 12 years by my count, so I don't think he commited suicide before his second term election was due, if that is your point.

[ChrisLove]

I presume he meant that they didnt have any more elections in Germany after 1933
edit: at least not until after WW2

[100% ILL]

Perhaps the elections were delayed due to the circumstances at the time.
But then again if you declare yourself Dictator those elections can take an awful long time to roll around again.

:rolleyes: (lighten up)

[Ace42]

So you then concede that you saying "If he is not good the people will vote him out" is not necessarily true? The people can't vote him out if they do not have the opportunity, nor will they necessarily do so even if they have the chance. There are numerous other "dictators" who have allowed elections and got back in, despite being clearly bad for the majority. Without doing some research, I'd suggest Robert Mugabe is a good example.

Likewise, "The idea is the Office has respect. (...) you're saluting his rank. I think the same should apply to an elected world leader." - Hitler was still an elected world leader right until is suicide, should everyone have saluted him out of respect for the office, irrespective of it being subverted (and let's face it, the US office has certainly been subverted)?

[100% ILL]

Comparing George Bush to Adolph Hitler is so far the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen you make.
Do I think Hitler should have recieved respect because of his office no, common sense.

[Jasonik]

Comparing George Bush to Adolph Hitler is so far the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen you make.
Do I think Hitler should have recieved respect because of his office no, common sense.
DUH!.....Where is your common sense? Bush IS just like Hitler!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[EN[i]GMA]

He wasn't comparing Bush to Hitler.

[TheWedge]

Let's see Bush VS Hitler

Bush:
-Invaded 2 countries in order to get his hands on an oil reserve/pipeline
-Used propaganda to get the American people to give up civil liberties and back his greedy agenda.
-Is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people
-Claims his beliefs are superior to others (God is on OUR side)

Hitler:
-All that and then some.

I don't think it is that much of a streatch, really.

[Ace42]

Indeed, I was comparing the offices. The idea that the man deserves respect because he holds the office (even if it is supposedly the office you are respecting, pshaw) is thus demonstrated to be flawed reasoning.

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[Whois]

Indeed, I was comparing the offices. The idea that the man deserves respect because he holds the office (even if it is supposedly the office you are respecting, pshaw) is thus demonstrated to be flawed reasoning.

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

Using the soundtrack from "Clockwork Orange"...classic!

[100% ILL]

DUH!.....Where is your common sense? Bush IS just like Hitler!!!!!!! :rolleyes:


(y) You might as well have said nuh uh.

[Señor Stino]

pfft, so why didnt Loppfessor give us some of GW Bush's achievments that earn our respect and made him president? i was really getting curious

that is what i hate about this forum, when people are wrong, the thread stops or changes subject, they never admit the other person was right

[HotAndWet]

I think you're really reaching on that one. To compare the two really isn't fair. Becomming president of the US is no easy task, and as a US citizen and member of the military I should have respect for the leader of our nation.

I remember reading a link in one of Anasazi's posts saying how Bush's grandfather or great-grandfather was involved somehow with the Nazis, I can't remember exactly what went on but I know the nazis supplied Bush's family with a lot of money, anyone remember this link?

Also, I refuse to respect Bush just because he is my president.

[Funkaloyd]

Here's (http://www.rememberjohn.com/Nazis.html) one of many articles on the subject.

[jegtar]

DUH!.....Where is your common sense? Bush IS just like Hitler!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

WTF? That's funny. Who does Sadam Hussein compare to? Ghandi?

[staceyineurope]

i am also an american living in europe.
i know the exact reason my bush is hated throughout the world...
he is a facist pig. all he is concerned with is assisting large corp. making large amounts of cash. he could care less about the rest of the world or even terrorism. terrorism is just an excuse for all the asine things he does.

[Loppfessor]

i am also an american living in europe.
i know the exact reason my bush is hated throughout the world...
he is a facist pig. all he is concerned with is assisting large corp. making large amounts of cash. he could care less about the rest of the world or even terrorism. terrorism is just an excuse for all the asine things he does.

Okay that's all well and good my isn't the media supposed to be impartial? I think everyone is entitled to their opinion but shouldn't those reporting the news operate with a certain degree of professionalism?

[FunkyHiFi]

Loppfessor,

Regarding respect for someone in a certain position/office/rank: I see where you're coming from. But for me there is a big difference between a military position & a political position.

I'll use an analogy that many people can relate to to help explain this: sports teams and their coaches (and I realize I am using some stereotypes here but this is only to help make my point).

How did the head coach of a team reach his position? He was awarded that job because he knew the rules of the game backwards & forwards; knows how to motivate people (not by lying to them, but by building up his athlete's trust in their actual mental/physical abilities), has good organizational abilities, etc, etc.

In other words, he WORKED to gain his position.

But how does a politician gain his position? While many do have organizational abilities and do good things for their citizens & care about people in general.............very probably it also involved kissing babies, shaking lots of hands, having just the right "look" on TV while giving a speech filled with lots of snappy catch phrases (& make sure that flag is clearly visible behind the podium!), making compromises on certain things to help out close business associates and/or friends, etc.

In other words, many (most?) politicians did NOT work for their position but rather, literally talked their way into it.

This is why for most politicians--unless I know otherwise--I don't have nearly as much respect for them as for say a football coach, a teacher, a firefighter or other positions that are geared towards helping people that also requires specialized training & personal dedication. Same with military people--they get my respect because they took that special job to look out for other people's safety, in this case an entire nation's safety.

So while it is definitely appropriate for you to respect your military superiors because of their accomplishments, for certain politicians I would ONLY publicly respect them because you would be punished if you did not.

[seamus129]

The world should respect the President reguardless of where you live people lives around Europe were saved by the men who have held this tough job. Bush is no different then Truman, we at war 3,000 people of every race religion were murder almost 3 years ago. In Spain the cowards attack a train station. Its very easy to look the other way. France policy towards head wraps might get two of there journalists killed. Europe just should remember who has been there for Her .

[Tone Capone]

What's up bro?
I can tell you that you will LOVE Germany. And since I'm probably the only one on this board that's been exactly in your shoes (American troop freshly stationed in Germany), I'll tell you that as much as the rest of the world hates our "biased" media... which might be true. Their media is far more biased. It's a double standard that you'll have to live with over there and actually everywhere. You will be suprised how many Germans see past the bullshit though.

[seamus129]

Germans I believe have mind set that Bush is strong leader who will never allow Europe to dictate term when talk only super power in the world

[Tone Capone]

Germans I believe have mind set that Bush is strong leader who will never allow Europe to dictate term when talk only super power in the world

They might but, even if that's true, none of the Germans I know like Bush at all. Germans are good people though, I miss my German friends.

[Señor Stino]

The world should respect the President reguardless of where you live people lives around Europe were saved by the men who have held this tough job. Bush is no different then Truman, we at war 3,000 people of every race religion were murder almost 3 years ago. In Spain the cowards attack a train station. Its very easy to look the other way. France policy towards head wraps might get two of there journalists killed. Europe just should remember who has been there for Her .

but why do you only talk about the President, as in the US president, if you take a look at history, there would be a lot of leaders we would have to "respect" now, because something happened in the past, example : we should all show our greatest respect to president putin because they saved us in wwI and II,;.. yadayada.

and Loppfessor still hasnt answered what exacly GW BUSH did so great to become president / leader of the troops

if you can't answer it, just admit it,damn.

[Loppfessor]

but why do you only talk about the President, as in the US president, if you take a look at history, there would be a lot of leaders we would have to "respect" now, because something happened in the past, example : we should all show our greatest respect to president putin because they saved us in wwI and II,;.. yadayada.

and Loppfessor still hasnt answered what exacly GW BUSH did so great to become president / leader of the troops

if you can't answer it, just admit it,damn.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone for or against President Bush here, hell I'd be nuts to try and make most of the folks here like him. I'm talking more about he office itself. The fact that many of you make it sound like poof he just woke up one day and was president is a little ignorant though.

[Señor Stino]

call me ignorant, no problem

but then i ask you, teach me !, make sure i will not be ignorant anymore

his mayor competence, I think, is that he is a good speaker to the dumb and to the masses, that's a good skill for a politician, but shouldn't he have some more?

[seamus129]

Sometimes being in position of the President of USA could be just that. A position were a President cant be allowed to put your head in the sand not see the beliefs of Islamic fundamentalists that European friends have had so much trouble with. France is a friend to the US when it suits her.

[saz]

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about

[seamus129]

Forty thousand dead american men spilled their blood to free France .

[Bob]

and damned if they don't owe us blood in return!

what is this, the godfather? we helped liberate them from the nazis only so that they could owe us a favor in the future at a time and place of our choosing? they're not obliged to jump into a war they don't want to jump into.

selling weapons and equipment to saddam is pretty inexcusable though. it was shitty when we did it, and it's still shitty when they did it.

[ChrisLove]

Forty thousand dead american men spilled their blood to free France .
Did you discount the French dead from the War of Independence?

[seamus129]

Dude great line in your profile

[Bob]

great!

[funkycains]

they refer to Tony Blair as Mr Blair and Silvio Berlesconi (can't spell!) Mr Berlesconi as well..., dont think the Prez will be too bothered though! Europe tends to be less conservative so even the democrats are centre-right compared with the main parties in Britain for example.