Here you go, conspiracy boys

[saz]

CBS broke the story (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/27/eveningnews/main639143.shtml)

BBC link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3607060.stm)


Official: FBI investigating whether Pentagon official spied for
Israel

By CURT ANDERSON
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The FBI is investigating whether an aide to
the Pentagon's No. 3 official acted as a spy for Israel, giving the
Jewish state classified materials about secret White House
deliberations on Iran, two federal law enforcement officials said
Friday.

No arrests have been made, said the officials, speaking on
condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing.

The officials refused to identify the Pentagon employee who is
under investigation, but said the person works in the office of
Douglas J. Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy at the
Pentagon.

Feith is a key aide to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld,
working on sensitive policy issues, including U.S. policy toward
Iraq and Iran.

The investigation centers on whether the employee in Feith's
office passed secrets about Bush administration policy toward Iran
to the main pro-Israeli lobbying group in Washington, the American
Israel Public Affairs Committee, which then allegedly gave them to
the Israeli government, one official said.

David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington,
said: "We categorically deny these allegations. They are
completely false and outrageous."

AIPAC spokesman Josh Block said that any allegation of criminal
conduct by the organization or its employees is "baseless and
false." He said the group "would not condone or tolerate for a
second any violation of U.S. law or interests."

He added: "We are fully cooperating with the governmental
authorities and will continue to do so."

The investigation was first reported Friday evening by CBS News.

President Bush has identified Iran as part of an "axis of
evil," along with North Korea and the former Iraqi regime.

Pentagon officials refused to comment, referring all questions
to the Justice Department.

Israel is one of the United States' strongest allies. Yet there
have been espionage cases between the two countries in the past.

In particular, the case of Jonathan Pollard, a former naval
intelligence officer who gave top-secret documents to Israel, has
been a point of contention in U.S.-Israeli relations, with the
Israeli government repeatedly pressing for his release.

Pollard was caught in Washington in November 1985, and was
arrested after unsuccessfully seeking refuge at the Israeli
Embassy.

A congressional aide declined to say if the Senate Intelligence
Committee had been briefed on the case but said the panel is
generally briefed on espionage cases.

[deita]

interesting info.

[ron989]

such crap. more and more conspiracies against Jews, it's getting ridiculous how rampant these types of articles are becoming.

[saz]

you're weird

[D_Raay]

How is an allegation based in facts a conspiracy? And did you happen to see that it has happened before in the article?

[bilbo]

Why would they need a spy with Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith already in there. :confused:

[TheWedge]

such crap. more and more conspiracies against Jews, it's getting ridiculous how rampant these types of articles are becoming.


Those poor jews. :(
Don't you people realize that the jews are a persecuted people and therefore should never be subjected to anything ever regardless of if it's true or not?

[DroppinScience]

such crap. more and more conspiracies against Jews, it's getting ridiculous how rampant these types of articles are becoming.

Uh, no. This is to do with the Israeli GOVT. Nothing to do with Jewish people, nothing to do with the Israeli people either. If Sharon's govt. (and Sharon is an evil fuck) is caught up in something evil (such as manipulating U.S. policy), it needs to be exposed and weeded out.

[ron989]

I admit that was a bit out of line...I'm still on edge after hearing about the jcc burning down in paris after being covered in swastikas.

But back to the story, it makes me wonder why something like this happens and it is so immensely exaggerated to the point where everyone believes it's true.

[DroppinScience]

But back to the story, it makes me wonder why something like this happens and it is so immensely exaggerated to the point where everyone believes it's true.

Immensely exaggerated? What is, exactly? :confused:

[ron989]

I thought that was more clear. This whole situation is exaggerated by cbs, bbc, yahoo, etc...

[saz]

you're such a fruitcake

[DroppinScience]

I thought that was more clear. This whole situation is exaggerated by cbs, bbc, yahoo, etc...

So anybody reporting news exaggerates it? C'mon, you wouldn't have batted an eyelash if this was an Arab country.

[ron989]

It seems as if this Franklin guy has already been labelled as a spy despite the fact that this whole situation is has been completely denied by Israeli officials and no one has shown any proof. So for now, let's assume that he's innocent until proven guilty because that's how our legal system works.

First of all, I doubt Israel would risk it's relations with the U.S. by doing anything as stupid as this. Also, I think that they shouldn't have to send spies over to the U.S. if the 2 countries are allies, because Israel needs to know certain information about Iraq/Iran for security reasons, just like the U.S. needs to know information that Israel gives them. Thats why government officials and Departments of Defense exist. I'll meet you guys halfway though and say that if he's proven guilty, then put the guy in jail because espionage is illegal.

But I still suspiciously see this as an effort to blame the war in Iraq on Israel before the elections that are coming up. I'd love to discuss this with anyone refraining from calling me childish names. Grow up.

And I definately won't respond to someone who refers to themself as a "jihad soldier". (destroyer?) (y)

[DroppinScience]

It seems as if this Franklin guy has already been labelled as a spy despite the fact that this whole situation is has been completely denied by Israeli officials and no one has shown any proof.

Just because it's denied by an Israeli official doesn't mean it's not true. It could either be:

a) He's lying his ass off
b) He's not lying as far he knows, but the real truth is hidden from him
c) He's telling the truth, there's no deception going on

As for proof, from what's been posted, there seems to be a legitimate case. Not to mention, this is not the first incident (just because the U.S. and Israel [or any other nations] are allies, it doesn't mean there isn't some spying going on). Take the Jonathan Pollard incident.

[DroppinScience]

One more thing Ron,

Just outta curiousity, are you Jewish yourself? That may explain why you seem to be especially sensitive when it comes to Israeli issues.

[saz]

of course he's Jewish....maybe even a Netanyahu Zionist. Not that there's anything wrong with being Jewish, Jews are still persecuted in today's world....however you can tell how a lot about this guy when he argues it's all the fault of the Palestinians and that the Israeli government and military does nothing wrong whatsoever and would never come even close to committing a war crime.

Regardless, allies spy on each other all the time....it's nothing new. He has no idea what he's talking about...it's like he lives in a bubble and lives in his own reality.

[DroppinScience]

of course he's Jewish....maybe even a Netanyahu Zionist.

How do we know for sure? For all we know, he could just be a fundamentalist Christian. ;)

[ron989]

of course he's Jewish....maybe even a Netanyahu Zionist. Not that there's anything wrong with being Jewish, Jews are still persecuted in today's world....however you can tell how a lot about this guy when he argues it's all the fault of the Palestinians and that the Israeli government and military does nothing wrong whatsoever and would never come even close to committing a war crime.

Regardless, allies spy on each other all the time....it's nothing new. He has no idea what he's talking about...it's like he lives in a bubble and lives in his own reality.

I can say the exact same for you. You're usually the one on this board posting anti-Israel articles and never once mentioned anything about palestinians committing crimes. I can post 7000 links about palestinian crimes but I would prefer that people learn about the middle east themselves rather then from one-sided articles that you constantly link to. I am Jewish and of course I'm sensitive to Israeli issues, but I definately don't live in a bubble, I've been to Israel many times and I'm probably one of the only people on here that actually have a first hand account of what exactly is going on in the middle east. So in fact, I do know what I'm talking about.

I don't feel like going into every one of my opinions here again because I've done it too many times and don't have the time or energy to respond to 20 people at a time. If this guy is convicted and proven guilty, then I won't be disappointed because I believe in the legal system and that no one is prone to the consequences of the law. Send the guy to jail then, great. But until he's actually proven guilty, I don't see why he should be labelled a spy. (I just found out the guy's not even a Jew).

Also, what's a "Netanyahu Zionist" ? Are you saying I'm the Israeli minister of Foreign Affairs? Oouuch....

[travesty]

So if we break ties with Israel will the rest of the Middle East start to warm up to us? Hmmmmm............

[Ace42]

So if we break ties with Israel will the rest of the Middle East start to warm up to us? Hmmmmm............

A little late for that, but it couldn't hurt any. If you broke ties with Israel, forcibly repossessed the weapons you gave (which is against the US constitution AFAIK) to them, and started patrolling mutually agreed palestine-israel borders, keeping them apart... Then maybe they might be more amendable to forgiving and forgetting =/

[travesty]

Don't think much could hurt at this point, although let's wait and see what Bushy does next :eek:

[DroppinScience]

But until he's actually proven guilty, I don't see why he should be labelled a spy. (I just found out the guy's not even a Jew).

Oh c'mon, what about that guy who was caught spying for the Russians during the Cold War years (forget the name, but he was traitor extraordinaire). He was called a spy from day one of when that news broke.

You frankly ARE too sensitive of whatever wrongdoings go on with Israel. It seems if you had your way, this whole affair would not have been reported in any mainstream media outlets cause it'd hurt your feelings that Israel isn't perfect. :rolleyes:

And so what if the spy in question isn't a Jew? His religion has nothing to do with anything.

[ron989]

It seems if you had your way, this whole affair would not have been reported in any mainstream media outlets cause it'd hurt your feelings that Israel isn't perfect.


That's not true. I just think the whole situation is blown out of proportion before any concrete proof is even shown. Also this isn't the first time that news agencies report accusations like this with concerns to the Israeli government. (ie- the Sharon bribery scandal). It just seems like many of them are written to cause a comotion, and most of the time nothing comes of them.

I mentioned the fact that he isn't Jewish because in all the online articles I've read, they associate him with Israel and keep using the words "Jewish state"...I know it has nothing to do with religion, but people still make the association, that bothers me.

[D_Raay]

Let me ask you something please if I may.
Do you agree with Sharon? Do you think it's a legitimate thing what is happening in Gaza with the fence and such?
Just curious what an actual jew thinks on this matter, this is the information age after all and the opportunity to actually speak to one in time of crisis is wonderful. Imagine if we all could of talked during the WW2 times?
I think George Bush and his cronies underestimated the internet and am presently writing about this and would appreciate your feedback Ron.

[saz]

you ignorant asshat...If you actually bothered to read my posts when I have commented on the situation in the Middle East, I've stated that both sides are to blame (terrorist groups vs. state terror). However, the policies of conservative, right-wing Israeli governements do very little if anything to bring about a fair and just resolution to the crisis. It seems they're only interested in killing and not trying to co-exist peacefully with the Palestinians. And you're damn straight....I despise right-wing Israeli governments and the state terror they unleash on Palestinians. I've posted about Israeli war crimes before sure, and will likely continue to do so, because the Israel has all the power and could easily make serious concessions in order co-exist.

Bullshit....if that's what you really think, then you'd be able to recognize that the policies of the Israeli government are doing fuck-all to bring a peaceful resolution, while condemning all of the Palestinians as terrorists. and yeah...I was saying that you remind me of Netanyahu, due to your repugnant bullshit neo-conservative viewpoints.

[ron989]

. It seems they're only interested in killing and not trying to co-exist peacefully with the Palestinians. And you're damn straight....I despise right-wing Israeli governments and the state terror they unleash on Palestinians. I've posted about Israeli war crimes before sure, and will likely continue to do so, because the Israel has all the power and could easily make serious concessions in order co-exist.


What the hell have the palestinians been doing to show that they peacefully want to co-exist? They have had PLENTY of chances over the last 50 years to show that they can be a peaceful nation and live by Israel without wanting to brush them into the sea, and have proved nothing but the opposite. Israel has also not done anything lately to show that they're interested in co-existing side by side because they clearly have no interest in living beside a nation that wants them murdered.

You really think that Israel has the power to make concessions for co-existance in the middle east? Talk to their Arab neighbors and see if they feel the same way. The Israeli government cannot continue giving into terror fighting because there would be no end to it. Giving them more and more land would not solve anything - looks what's happened in the past! Arafat even signed a peace process with the Israeli prime minister 10 years ago after Israel returned major sections of land that belonged to them, and what has that solved? Why doesn't Arafat ever tell his people to stop suicide missions for a few months or even condemn bombings in major cities, and then ask Israel to co-exist?

D_Raay , I won't speak for every Jew or Israeli in the world, but I'll give you my personal opinion on the fence. I don't agree to it cutting into palestinian land, and I don't agree to it stopping legitimate palestinians from getting to their jobs within Israeli territory. However, I believe that it does help keep out the people that Israel is trying to protect themselves against. The checkpoints, the fence...these are security measures and unfortunately, the palestinian people have to suffer for the actions of the terrorist groups that represent them. If you look at the last year, suicide bombings in major cities have almost come to a halt, and this is partly because of the fence and the security checkpoints. (by the way, I've been to sections of the wall and from what I've seen, they cut across sections of land along the main highways and not through main villages).

[D_Raay]

Thank you for your reply :)

[Ace42]

If you look at the last year, suicide bombings in major cities have almost come to a halt, and this is partly because of the fence and the security checkpoints. (by the way, I've been to sections of the wall and from what I've seen, they cut across sections of land along the main highways and not through main villages).

Because natural barriers like, oh, a massive sea, prevented Arab terrorists from blowing up the twin towers...

"We feel so safe behind our wall" - hah.

[ron989]

Because natural barriers like, oh, a massive sea, prevented Arab terrorists from blowing up the twin towers...

Come on, that's a horrible example. Were they weekly terror attacks in nyc prior to 9/11 ?

And it's not a matter of "feeling safe" behind the wall. You can't argue with facts...it's working, whether people like it or not.

[Ace42]

Come on, that's a horrible example. Were they weekly terror attacks in nyc prior to 9/11 ?

And it's not a matter of "feeling safe" behind the wall. You can't argue with facts...it's working, whether people like it or not.

You can argue with your intepretation of facts. Suggesting the wall is working, rather than bombing old men in wheel chairs, or causing a power-vacuum which is resulting in political instability in Palestine is to apply very selective reasoning.

Just like when you said "They had a chance at living side by side, and threw it away 10 years ago" - yeah, because the only reason the Palestinians were arsey was the land, nothing to do with Israeli troops torturing innocent civilians.

[ron989]

Suggesting the wall is working, rather than bombing old men in wheel chairs...

Are you referring to the IDF assasinating Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the biggest terrorist group in the middle east??? So let me get this straight, Bin Laden should also be left alone too because he's an old man?? The guy was responsible for organizing hundreds of suicide attacks all over the middle east over the past 45 years. He should be burning in hell.

Just like when you said "They had a chance at living side by side, and threw it away 10 years ago" - yeah, because the only reason the Palestinians were arsey was the land, nothing to do with Israeli troops torturing innocent civilians.

Israeli troups weren't killing innocent civillians as soon as they were declared a country by the UN. Learn some history. Israel began being attacked by all it's neighbors the second they became a country. They weren't killing civillians to celebrate.

[Whois]

Some choice quotes:


"When you start knocking down buildings with bulldozers, don't expect people not to respond to this kind of activity. When you start announcing more settlement activity, this does not create conditions that would cause the other side to be less responsive or less violent."
- U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell

"We shall try to spirit the penniless population (the Arabs) across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country...both the process of expropriation and removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly."
- Theodor Herzl-1898, Tagebuches Vol.II, p.24

"In Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country (the Palestinians)...the four great powers (UK, US, USSR and France) are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhibit that ancient land"
- Balfour, A.J.-1919

"There was no such thing as Palestinians. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."
- Golda Meir -quoted in The Sunday Times, 15 June 1969

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy".
- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) [Yitzhak Shamir] in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

."We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."
- Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

[ron989]

Nice copy/pasting job. Instead of copy/pasting quotes out of context like you do, I'll link a website for people to read on their own.

http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html

[saz]

man, this ron989 is the biggest fucking idiot on the internet. Praise, praise, praise the Israeli government, they can never do anything wrong. And kill, kill, kill the Palestinians.

If you want Hamas and its supporters to burn in hell, then Sharon, Netanyahu and all of the other war mongering, war criminal, neo-con scum fucks should be burning there as well.

[D_Raay]

man, this ron989 is the biggest fucking idiot on the internet. Praise, praise, praise the Israeli government, they can never do anything wrong. And kill, kill, kill the Palestinians.

If you want Hamas and its supporters to burn in hell, then Sharon, Netanyahu and all of the other war mongering, war criminal, neo-con scum fucks should be burning there as well.
Amen Anasazi
(y)

[DroppinScience]

I personally laughed myself when Anasazi called ron an asshat. Man that was hilarious. :p

Just think... an ass... that is a hat! :eek:

[ron989]

Anasazi, fuck off. If you're going to put words in my mouth and refuse to respond to any of my posts then I dont know why the hell you're posting here. I never said kill all the palestinians, I never said the Israeli government never does anything wrong. If you even bother to read what I write rather then choose to be blinded by your fuckin arrogance, you would see that:

- I condemned the fence cutting through palestinian land
- I condemned Israel spying on the U.S.
- I condemned killing any palestinians claiming to be innocent
- I condemned the attack on the USS Liberty

But no, you would rather tell people what I'm thinking rather then have them figure for themselves. Also, if you believe that leaders of terrorist organizations should be alive and running, as well as flying planes into American office buildings, then you're fucked up and I'm wasting my time talking to you. And also, comparing Sharon to terrorist groups such as Hamas is completely insane. Now is when you say "but nooo ! Sharon is a terrorist too ! He orders the murder of innocent palestinians!!" Fuck off already. If you had any ounce of knowledge on the subject, if you were actually even in Israel or anywhere near the middle-east you wouldn't even dream of comparing the 2. Go on, call me an ass hat because you have nothing to say, and get backed up by people on this message board but you know that outside this message board you would be laughed at.

[saz]

Anasazi, fuck off.

Oh, that'll never happen...I'll here to drive idiots like you insane


If you're going to put words in my mouth and refuse to respond to any of my posts then I dont know why the hell you're posting here.

Hey fuckhead, I've responded to all of your posts in this thread except one I believe...I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just going on the Zionist crap that you've posted in here


I never said kill all the palestinians, I never said the Israeli government never does anything wrong. If you even bother to read what I write rather then choose to be blinded by your fuckin arrogance, you would see that:

You haven't said that, but that's certainly your attitude...that Israel can do no wrong, and all of the problems of the Middle East are solely the fault of the Palestinians and the states that surround Israeli. I've been on top of your repugnant, bullshit views since you joined the board and I've been just waiting for the opportunity to call you out and get you all worked up.


- I condemned the fence cutting through palestinian land
- I condemned Israel spying on the U.S.
- I condemned killing any palestinians claiming to be innocent
- I condemned the attack on the USS Liberty


Hahahahahahahahahahahahah.....that's the funniest shit ever. Nice try...all you did in my thread here was make accusations of some 'conspiracy' against Israel. It's as if you have some sort of trouble accepting reality. You've defended the fucking wall time and time again, as you even pointed out in this thread that it's 'saving lives' which clearly can't be proven. What does the attack on the USS Liberty have to do with this topic anyways? Nothing.


But no, you would rather tell people what I'm thinking rather then have them figure for themselves.

nah, I can just read you like a Sears catalouge. You're a typical, knee-jerk, neo-conservative Zionist who despises Palestians so much that it's bordering on racism.


Also, if you believe that leaders of terrorist organizations should be alive and running, as well as flying planes into American office buildings, then you're fucked up and I'm wasting my time talking to you.

Ah no, nice try. As I've stated on here before in the past, before your retarded as registered, I actually support the war on terrorism and thought that intervening in Afghanistan was right.

How typical of a neo-con fuckhead: categorizing leftists as Al-Qaeda sympathers. You stupid fucking douchebag piece of shit right-wing scum fuck.

Go seek professional help now. Otherwise, I'll continue to hound you in here and call you out for the moron you are.


And also, comparing Sharon to terrorist groups such as Hamas is completely insane. Now is when you say "but nooo ! Sharon is a terrorist too ! He orders the murder of innocent palestinians!!" Fuck off already. If you had any ounce of knowledge on the subject, if you were actually even in Israel or anywhere near the middle-east you wouldn't even dream of comparing the 2. Go on, call me an ass hat because you have nothing to say, and get backed up by people on this message board but you know that outside this message board you would be laughed at.

Right....keep dreaming. Go lick Sharon's colon.....and long live the war mongers.

[saz]

man get that bullsh*t out of here. Clearly "freeing palestine" in fundamentalist (general palestinian) terms means killing innocent civillians in the middle of the streets. How about trying to achieve a peaceful solution rather then a murderous one? Is sending out 13 year old girls with suicide belts going to "free palestine"?

Israel is merely protecting themselves against fundamentalist terrorist groups in the middle east that want nothing but to kill Jews and Americans, or any Westerners. palestinians instigated this whole cycle of back and forth killing, I guarantee that if the terrorism ceased, Israel would no longer attack the homes of terrorists.

-It's great that you generalize Palestinian sovereignty as being in line with fundamentalism and killing innocent people. Way to go, fruitcake.

-There you go again, defending how the Israeli military destroys Palestinian homes, lives and neighbourhoods. And oh yes, it's all the fault of the Palestinians. Genocide is genocide.

oh you mean the occupation of land they legally own? Everyone seems to be tied up on the fact that Israel is occupying palestinian land. palestinians seem to think that ALL Israeli land belongs to them.

-Wrong again, fruitcake. A return to the pre-1967 borders is what Palestian legislators are calling for. Way to go with the blatant generalizations.

palestinians don't have it in them to commit any type of genocide upon the Jews, despite their wishes to kill Jews and get their "70 virgins in heaven".

I was expecting someone to mention that popular flash word "apartheid". I may be slightly zionististic but is there something wrong with targeting terrorists and terrorist cells within the palestinian territories? If that's what you mean by apartheid then I agree. But rest assured that Israel is targeting terrorists and murderers, the only reason why civillians are being killed in the meanwhile is because they are stepping in front of the crossfire. Sending an 8 year old kid out to throw firebombs at a soldier isn't the safest thing one can do. Keep those damn stonethrowers inside and they wont be killed.

-There you go again. You're clearly generalizing that all Palestians are fundamentalist terrorists and that their only desire is to "kill Jews" Congrats...you're an idiot.

-Oh my god, are you completely fucking serious? You actually believe that the only reason Palestinian civilians are being killed, is "because they are stepping in front of the crossfire"?! Nutjob, nutjob, nutjob.

-"Keep those damn stonethrowers inside and they won't be killed." You're a racist fuck.

In my opinion, palestinians only have the right to exist when they start behaving like human beings. When they understand that the U.N. will NEVER give them any official state through means of violence and terror, that's when they will be regarded as human by the rest of the world.

-fucking racist 'tard

I agree it will. Terrorist attacks in major cities have gone down significantly over the past few months, and I attribute that to the security wall and increased security measures. If you noticed, most of the attacks recently have been at border crossings and in palestinian territories, places where palestinians have easy access.

-How about that.....but you just said:

I condemned the fence cutting through palestinian land

And this statement pretty much sums it all up:

I don't think palestinians and Israelis will ever live side by side together


Well, I think I said it the best (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=278878&postcount=24)

[Ace42]

Are you referring to the IDF assasinating Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the biggest terrorist group in the middle east??? So let me get this straight, Bin Laden should also be left alone too because he's an old man?? The guy was responsible for organizing hundreds of suicide attacks all over the middle east over the past 45 years. He should be burning in hell.

Allegedly, in both cases. Traditionally, in my country, and in the US, infact the free-world over, people are innocent until proven guilty, and a trial is conducted *before* the execution is carried out. Let me guess, in Israel guilt is established by the magnitude of the accusations, not their verification in some sort of trial?


Israeli troups weren't killing innocent civillians as soon as they were declared a country by the UN. Learn some history. Israel began being attacked by all it's neighbors the second they became a country. They weren't killing civillians to celebrate.

I know my history, I actually have actually studied the Arab-Israeli conflict formally, although that was several years ago now. And surprisingly, in this country, we don't have all our media telling us that the Israelis are the poor innocent victims surrounded on all sides by murdering thugs, the lone voice of reason in a chaotic world.

The *dates* of these events is irrelevant, which is why I made no refernece to it. Saying "He went on a brutal murdering rape-rampage only *after* he got beaten up" is not a legitimisation. I, and the right thinking people of the free world, don't think "he started it, mummy!" is an adult way of attributing blame in a conflict. As Israeli paratroopers have confessed, the Israeli army's practice of indescriminate torture is endemic. Even those who don't go into the army thinking it is acceptible, get coerced into it and end up commiting (self-confessed) unjustified acts of violence on a daily basis.

Take your head out of your arse, ffs.