John Kerry is entitled to be the President

[Manji]

After 3.5 months of active duty John F. Kerry received 3 purple hearts a Silver Star and a Bronze Star and spent no time in a hospital. These accomplishments make him the most decorated veteran in American History. That's a fact! Not only Kerry for President but Kerry for the $1 bill!!!

[robofoo76]

John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Ranh Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.

It is clear that at least one of Kerry's Purple Heart awards was the result of his own negligence, not enemy fire, and that Kerry went to unusual lengths to obtain the award after being turned down by his own commanding officer.

John Kerry has long insisted that using the three-injury loophole to leave combat early was his own idea, but Kerry's fellow Swift officer Thomas Wright, who served on occasion as the OIC (Officer in Charge) of Kerry's boat group, contradicts that claim. Wright reports that he "had a lot of trouble getting Kerry to follow orders," and that those who worked with Kerry found him "oriented towards his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives." He therefore requested that Kerry be removed from his boat group. After John Kerry qualified for his third Purple Heart, Thomas Wright and two fellow officers informed him of the obscure regulation, and told him to go home. Wright concluded, "We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11."

Constructing a complete picture of Kerry's service is difficult due to gaps in the Naval records provided by the Kerry campaign. These gaps include missing and incomplete fitness reports, missing medical records and missing records related to his medal awards.

For this reason we call upon Senator Kerry to authorize complete access to all his military records by filing a standard Form 180, a simple two-page release form.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is in the process of researching John Kerry's time in Vietnam by conducting interviews with eyewitnesses to his activities, and we plan to add material to this section over the next several weeks as it becomes available. We will report the true circumstances of Kerry's medal awards and injuries, describe other controversial missions, and provide in-depth analysis of his fitness reports

[bilbo]

Doesn't cutting and pasting comments directly from the Shit Boat Liars (http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam) kind of make you an asshat?

John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Ranh Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.

It is clear that at least one of Kerry's Purple Heart awards was the result of his own negligence, not enemy fire, and that Kerry went to unusual lengths to obtain the award after being turned down by his own commanding officer.

John Kerry has long insisted that using the three-injury loophole to leave combat early was his own idea, but Kerry's fellow Swift officer Thomas Wright, who served on occasion as the OIC (Officer in Charge) of Kerry's boat group, contradicts that claim. Wright reports that he "had a lot of trouble getting Kerry to follow orders," and that those who worked with Kerry found him "oriented towards his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives." He therefore requested that Kerry be removed from his boat group. After John Kerry qualified for his third Purple Heart, Thomas Wright and two fellow officers informed him of the obscure regulation, and told him to go home. Wright concluded, "We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11."

Constructing a complete picture of Kerry's service is difficult due to gaps in the Naval records provided by the Kerry campaign. These gaps include missing and incomplete fitness reports, missing medical records and missing records related to his medal awards.

For this reason we call upon Senator Kerry to authorize complete access to all his military records by filing a standard Form 180, a simple two-page release form.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is in the process of researching John Kerry's time in Vietnam by conducting interviews with eyewitnesses to his activities, and we plan to add material to this section over the next several weeks as it becomes available. We will report the true circumstances of Kerry's medal awards and injuries, describe other controversial missions, and provide in-depth analysis of his fitness reports

[Burnout18]

why do people try to dispute Kerry's war record when thier canidate,Bush, didn't even fight at all?

[Bob]

we're not electing them to be soldiers, we're choosing a president, i can't believe this is still the only shit anyone's talking about

[infidel]

why do people try to dispute Kerry's war record when thier canidate,Bush, didn't even fight at all?
Worse, he was a deserter who still would still be in prison if his papa hadn't of bailed him out.

[Vladimir]

Idiot. All the major news sources have discredited a whole lot of the swift boat stuff. Even John McCain is against it. This isn't some liberal conspiracy, this is what's been on the news for like a month and a half. Tool.

[Schmeltz]

Hey sisko, keep saying "I W" all the time. People really respect you for it. That and your professional eloquence.

[Schmeltz]

Hey sisko, maybe if you cut-and-paste a random smear site into all your posts it will distract us from pointing out the utter lack of substance to everything you try to say (and I say "try" because seemingly you're not trying very hard).

[Burnout18]

Another thing i don't get is why People get mad at Kerry for trying to bring home troops from Vietnam. Did u want them to stay forever?

[Schmeltz]

Kerry accuesd VETS for commition horable acts


What language is that in? Can anyone decipher this for me?

As for your total inability to say anything substantial, in the last ten minutes you've started two threads that contain nothing but a cut-and-pasted link. No original thought, no commentary, no direction. Although maybe you were just being considerate and sparing us the agony of trying to decode your spelling.

[ASsman]

(YOU CAN'T YOU JUST TOSS OUT A BUNCH OF CRAP AND HOPE OTHER LIBERAL SHEEP FOLLOW YOU)

Put SIkso infront of the first "YOU", and replace liberal with douche bag right wingers.

[frisky girl]

What language is that in? Can anyone decipher this for me?

As for your total inability to say anything substantial, in the last ten minutes you've started two threads that contain nothing but a cut-and-pasted link. No original thought, no commentary, no direction. Although maybe you were just being considerate and sparing us the agony of trying to decode your spelling.

At least we can rest assured he won't be able to read the ballot when he steps into the voting booth...

[Schmeltz]

Ha ha, I hadn't thought of that before. I suppose sisko probably has a pretty good chance of voting for Kerry even though he hates him.

[Burnout18]

Thats not why people are mad, they are mad because Kerry accuesd VETS for comiting horable acts, and because of Kerry's words POW's were tortured.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ????

POW's tortured? Yea isnt that Jane Fonda's fault too?

btw Horrible

[Vladimir]

No I W no one has discredited it. McCain didn't even discredit it. (Even thought he is against it) Go ahead and show me how it has been discredited.
(I asked you do do this in another thread, but no one could live up to the challenge.)

Thanks for Playing
Sure, douchenozzle.

Ch-Check It Out:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/20/115601.shtml

That's bullet points from the NY Times. Oh wait, they must be part of the "huge left-wing media conspiracy," right?

[Army-P8ntballer]

After 3.5 months of active duty John F. Kerry received 3 purple hearts a Silver Star and a Bronze Star and spent no time in a hospital. These accomplishments make him the most decorated veteran in American History. That's a fact! Not only Kerry for President but Kerry for the $1 bill!!!

Im not saying those medals are not impressive. But so u know he is not the most highly decorated veteran in american history, and ur sources are faulty, their are several men who had received 1-2 medal of Honors, which in a military perspective, out-weigh 3 purple hearts and a silver star or a bronze star. When u receive a medal of honor they usually give them to ur family members...

[Manji]

Im not saying those medals are not impressive. But so u know he is not the most highly decorated veteran in american history, and ur sources are faulty, their are several men who had received 1-2 medal of Honors, which in a military perspective, out-weigh 3 purple hearts and a silver star or a bronze star. When u receive a medal of honor they usually give them to ur family members...

Yeah but how long did those people serve? For the length of time, 5 medals is pretty impressive. More than 1 a month...He must have been Johnny on the spot with the heroics.

[QueenAdrock]

Thats not why people are mad, they are mad because Kerry accuesd VETS for comiting horable acts, and because of Kerry's words POW's were tortured.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ????

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?! (http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html)

Read the fucking speech. He says "some veterans have testified to...", etc. He didn't accuse anyone of doing anything, he quoted what was ALREADY said. Read the speech, and THEN talk. Thanks.

[infidel]

I'm a Vietnam vet and can attest to the facts that Kerry stated after the war as being true.
I consider the man a hero for doing it. If he and others like him hadn't of brought the atrocities to the public's eye they would have kept on happening and the war would probably still be going.
Kerry saved thousands of lives by standing up for what he felt was right.

[D_Raay]

I'm a Vietnam vet and can attest to the facts that Kerry stated after the war as being true.
I consider the man a hero for doing it. If he and others like him hadn't of brought the atrocities to the public's eye they would have kept on happening and the war would probably still be going.
Kerry saved thousands of lives by standing up for what he felt was right.
First rate post infidel (y) (y) (y)

[yeahwho]

Hundreds of Vets disagree with you. You kindof have to prove things like this.

Here is one source for you gmsisko.

http://www.mishalov.com/Nixon_unraveling_war.html

Here is two.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/lai/color_10.html?sect=13

gmsisko1, I am of an age that the newspapers, TV, radio and each breathing moment in the USA was pivotal to daily body counts in Vietnam, 50 million strong US citizens opposed Vietnam, including Republicans! Why? MLK said it best....in 1967

"We have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. Our minimal expectation is to occupy it as an American colony and maintain social stability for our investments. This tells why American helicopters are being used against guerrillas in Colombia and Peru. Increasingly the role our nation has taken is the role of those who refuse to give up the privileges and pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investment."

[QueenAdrock]

He did at one point day he himself amoung others did horrable acts. Maybe not in that speech, but he did say it. And people were tortured as a result.


How about some fucking sources instead of talking out of your ass? Do you have proof that anything Kerry said resulted in torture? Go ahead, show me one fucking link that isn't someone's opinion. Show me a website that a national newspaper or journal has come out and said that because of Kerry, people were tortured. You like to talk, but not once have you put up a link that proves what you say. EVER. You just post up people's opinions and commentaries, which is NOT proof.

Hundreds of Vets disagree with you.

Yeah, I agree. Hundreds. Too bad thousands and thousands went over to Vietnam. Looks like infidel's in the majority.

[QueenAdrock]

You are not very smart. We went to Nam to stop the spread of communism.

And it's a darn good thing we went over there! We killed thousands of troops, and communism is completely out of South Vietnam. Oh wait. I forgot. Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City...is that communist? Please help me out on that one, I would hate to think we went over to fight a bullshit war to kill thousands of people and LOSE.

[infidel]

We killed an estimated three million Vietnamese and they kept on coming, how's that for determination?
South Vietnam is doing better now under it's current government than it has in the centuries of foreign occupation.
Most of the Vietnamese don't give a rat's ass who or what kind of government they have, they'd rather just live in peace.

[Rich Cheney]

After 3.5 months of active duty John F. Kerry received 3 purple hearts a Silver Star and a Bronze Star and spent no time in a hospital. These accomplishments make him the most decorated veteran in American History. That's a fact! Not only Kerry for President but Kerry for the $1 bill!!!

Based upon your requisites half of the drunks at my local V.F.W are entitled to be President.

[yeahwho]

You are not very smart. We went to Nam to stop the spread of communism.

See sometimes war is nessasary, but I hate war. No one in their right mind likes war.

WOW! I am dumb. Thanks for clearing that up! That must of been some of the collateral damge of the war against communism. All that dumb stuff guys like Nixon, Kissinger and mysef found reprehensive. It's all fun and games till someone like you comes along and say's "We went to Nam to stop the spread of communism."

The best information from both countries is over, WAY over 2 million civilians were killed in Vietnam, South and North. upwards of 5.1 million civilians died in this conflict of communism, approximately 13% of the population of Vietnam, to compare that 13% to our country, it would be 28 million civilian deaths in the USA. All to stop communism.

[infidel]

Based upon your requisites half of the drunks at my local V.F.W are entitled to be President.
Wasn't it bush himself who said if he wasn't president he'd be sitting in a bar?

[Manji]

Based upon your requisites half of the drunks at my local V.F.W are entitled to be President.

Well they're not running for President.

[Rich Cheney]

Well they're not running for President.

Thank god!

[ASsman]

Gmsisko, school is cool!

[djslippE]

If its any consolation at least realize that Vietnam like Iraq:
1. Was very unpopular at home.
2. could not be resolved within the "international community"
3. Was an entrenched guerilla style war
4. Where the enemy and the people we were saving were hard to distinguish from
5. We attacked them first due to "aggression" policies
6. The enemy was a "friend" before when he had a common enemy.
7. LOTS of civilains killed.
8. High casualty and injury rate.
9. Ground forces comprised of lightly trained members (reservists vs drafted)
10. Negative impact on the US economy

http://www.swans.com/library/art9/herman09.html
http://work.colum.edu/~amiller/iraqviet.htm

So when you think "why are we still talking about a war 30 years ago!" keep in mind that if we had remembered our missteps then then we might now make the same blunders this decade as well. Of course those people fighting in the war might have a better recollection than those relaxing at home.

PS Since we are quoting Kerry....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1097982/posts

opening:
Kerry: "I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare"
....

"In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart."

....

"We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding With whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American. "

....

"We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break... because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point."

.....

"Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war." "

....

"(I) think there will be guerrilla wars and I think we must have a capability to fight those. And we may have to fight them somewhere based on legitimate threats, but we must learn, in this country, how to define those threats and that is what I would say to this question of world peace. I think it is bogus, totally artificial. There is no threat. These Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands. "


Pretty relevant over 30 years huh? Starting to see the same arguments come up then as are coming up now.

[QueenAdrock]

www.stolenhonor.com

I said national newspaper or journal, not right-winged propaganda, you dipshit.

THANKS FOR PLAYING LOL :rolleyes:

[ASsman]

History Repeating, thanks to greed.



MONEY IS YOUR GOD

[QueenAdrock]

You are beating a dead horse. I believe it was a Democrat who got us into Nam. Nixon got us out of Nam when he took office in 69.


You said sometimes it was necessary for us to go to war with Vietnam. Are you saying you actually *gasp* agree with a democrat?

And NO, Nixon did NOT get us out of Vietnam in 1969, you fucktard. The war went on until 1975. It's the longest war in US history, and was total bullshit.

[adam_f]

I can safely say I've never heard fucktard before. Funny.

[Army-P8ntballer]

Yeah but how long did those people serve? For the length of time, 5 medals is pretty impressive. More than 1 a month...He must have been Johnny on the spot with the heroics.

To let you know, it is pretty much universal in the military, in every branch, that heros are the ones who didnt comeback from combat. Kerry, being johnny on the spot with the heroics? I have doubts about that, because the bond you builed in combat is like no other bond anyone could ever have, in some cases im sure is stronger than the both one has with their spouse. If he really was a hero he wouldnt have came back home and betrayed his fellow sailors by saying they and himself "comitting autrocities". Now if shoting women and children carrying an Ak-47,(most of the time these "soldiers" did not wear uniforms and are using tactics that now al-queda has adopted; attacking then hiding into the civilian population) is an autrocity, well i just have to say wake up! the world is a really harsh place, I group in definetely one of the worst part of south central L.A, 18st, biggest Hispanic gang ever. I know how sick a "human" person can be. Kerry is not fit for command. If you read that book "Kerry, Unfit for command" you would here 1st hand accounts from sailors that where with Kerry at the time who bring question about kerry's war record.EVen then, this election should not be about what either candidate did 35 years ago. We have young men and women who are serving now, how about we focus on what needs to be done to protect them and get them all to come home (that goes to both parties!)

[Army-P8ntballer]

We killed an estimated three million Vietnamese and they kept on coming, how's that for determination?
South Vietnam is doing better now under it's current government than it has in the centuries of foreign occupation.
Most of the Vietnamese don't give a rat's ass who or what kind of government they have, they'd rather just live in peace.

If that's the case then why did so many flee during the Tet offensive? everyone cares if they are living under a dictatorship, it's been universal through-out history.

[Army-P8ntballer]

I'm a Vietnam vet and can attest to the facts that Kerry stated after the war as being true.
I consider the man a hero for doing it. If he and others like him hadn't of brought the atrocities to the public's eye they would have kept on happening and the war would probably still be going.
Kerry saved thousands of lives by standing up for what he felt was right.

WOA! haveof those guys who claimed to have commited autrocities in vietnam, where either, not in any combat unit or in vietnam at all, they just lied about where they were at the time, so they can try to making some political influence, sadly it worked...by which i mean people like you (not saying your a bad person) are so quick to take some persons words before actually researching the subject.

[infidel]

WOA! haveof those guys who claimed to have commited autrocities in vietnam, where either, not in any combat unit or in vietnam at all, they just lied about where they were at the time, so they can try to making some political influence, sadly it worked...by which i mean people like you (not saying your a bad person) are so quick to take some persons words before actually researching the subject. Please tell me how you know so much about this. I highly doubt you even born until way after Vietnam.

[Army-P8ntballer]

Please tell me how you know so much about this. I highly doubt you even born until way after Vietnam.

my half sister is from vietnam, her father served during the vietnam and was a POW for 3 years. Im also majoring in military history.

[Ace42]

That is either a lie, or you are going to fail, or the US Army does actually live up to the stereotype of employing the thickest and mot ignorant dipshits that coagulate in the bowels of the nation.

You don't even know about the legitimacy of the first Iraq war, something that is contemporary, let alone something than happened thirty years ago.

The atrocities commited by the US in Vietnam are *fact* and denying them (like My Lai, etc) is like Germans denying the holocaust.

[Jasonik]

I love the title of this thread! In politically correct progressive-speak what does entitlement mean? Isn't that what poor uneducated minority single parent families recieve? Is the thinking that because John Kerry is such a lackluster, indecisive, CYA artist of a candidate, that he needs help becoming president and deserves a government handout? :p

[Army-P8ntballer]

That is either a lie, or you are going to fail, or the US Army does actually live up to the stereotype of employing the thickest and mot ignorant dipshits that coagulate in the bowels of the nation.

You don't even know about the legitimacy of the first Iraq war, something that is contemporary, let alone something than happened thirty years ago.

The atrocities commited by the US in Vietnam are *fact* and denying them (like My Lai, etc) is like Germans denying the holocaust.

if they are fact, where's the evidence? there's evidence of the holocust but i see no evidence of the US military commiting evidence, but then again u probably think that striping down a POW and taking pics of him, dont u?

[Ace42]

if they are fact, where's the evidence? there's evidence of the holocust but i see no evidence of the US military commiting evidence, but then again u probably think that striping down a POW and taking pics of him, dont u?

There is plenty of evidence of US misconduct in Vietnam, including photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylai.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war-crimes/my-lai-massacre/

And do you not remember your government decrying taking photos of US POWs full clothed and not at all being mistreated? And then you have the cheek to say that photos of a nude POW being attatched to electrodes, being kicked to death, etc etc don't count?

You are not making a good case for yourself.

[CrankItUp!]

George W. Bush is a fucking prick !

[Army-P8ntballer]

There is plenty of evidence of US misconduct in Vietnam, including photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylai.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war-crimes/my-lai-massacre/

And do you not remember your government decrying taking photos of US POWs full clothed and not at all being mistreated? And then you have the cheek to say that photos of a nude POW being attatched to electrodes, being kicked to death, etc etc don't count?

You are not making a good case for yourself.

i am aware of who he is, but you are portraying you argument like the US MILLITARY was in control of the situation, like it was conspiracy. I want to see records of the US govt. it self being involved, not some rogue soldier, who has a sick fetish. And so you know the Vietcong took their Vietnam POWs and attempted to brain wash them, with "re-education" which was really just POWs being beaten and forced to watch Pro-communism propaganda.

[Ace42]

i am aware of who he is, but you are portraying you argument like the US MILLITARY was in control of the situation, like it was conspiracy. I want to see records of the US govt. it self being involved, not some rogue soldier, who has a sick fetish. And so you know the Vietcong took their Vietnam POWs and attempted to brain wash them, with "re-education" which was really just POWs being beaten and forced to watch Pro-communism propaganda.

Who "he" is? My Lai isn't a person... And I am not portraying anything, the COURTS MARTIAL portrayed it like a whole shitload of soldiers went apeshit on a bunch of women and children.

Last I checked, there was more than one case in Abu Ghraib going through and there has already been one conviction. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. I understand you want to believe that your country are the good guys, and only do good things against bad people, but that is absolute bullshit. And putting it down to "a few bad apples" is bullshit. That's what Israelis say about their soldiers torturing Palestinians, ask the soldiers, and those not afraid to talk will tell you it is endemic.

Armies are like that. You can't program people to go against biological nature and turn themselves into killing machines, and then expect them to act responsibly. It doesn't work like that.

Do some research, quit making shit up, then you might not come across as a weak-minded deluded kid.

[ASsman]

Wow this is pointless, he is obviously not capable of comprehending you.

[EN[i]GMA]

That My Lai guy was a bastard. Good thing we took him out.

[ASsman]

Its about time we kill Castro, before he dies on his own.

[Grasshopper]

Damn, if anyone is entitled for presidency here it is Al Sharpton! :eek: :D :D :cool:

[yeahwho]

Look even Vice President Cheney is endorsing Kerry in his own way.

Double Meaning? I think not......just an endosrement and self indictment.

Didn't Vice President Dick Cheney suggest that if voters "make the wrong choice" in November's election, "the danger is that we'll get hit by terrorists again."

I guess that means we made the wrong choice last time. Right? Right. :D

[Burnout18]

Im also majoring in military history.

Now, seriously, what the hell type of job do u get with that?

[Grasshopper]

Look even Vice President Cheney is endorsing Kerry in his own way.

Double Meaning? I think not......just an endosrement and self indictment.

Didn't Vice President Dick Cheney suggest that if voters "make the wrong choice" in November's election, "the danger is that we'll get hit by terrorists again."

I guess that means we made the wrong choice last time. Right? Right. :D


that's fantastic. I love your logic. FRESH! (y) ;)

[jegtar]

I understand you want to believe that your country are the good guys, and only do good things against bad people, but that is absolute bullshit. And putting it down to "a few bad apples" is bullshit. That's what Israelis say about their soldiers torturing Palestinians, ask the soldiers, and those not afraid to talk will tell you it is endemic.

Armies are like that. You can't program people to go against biological nature and turn themselves into killing machines, and then expect them to act responsibly. It doesn't work like that.

Are you suggesting that we disban the U.S. Armed Forces? Anti-war is one thing but being against the Army is pretty fucking stupid, and that's coming from someone who is left of you.

[Ace42]

Are you suggesting that we disban the U.S. Armed Forces? Anti-war is one thing but being against the Army is pretty fucking stupid, and that's coming from someone who is left of you.

The arguments I hear *for* the army is that they *protect* - the US army has not protected the US in some time, and has generally caused further animosity towards the US. Now, if the army, which is designed to prevent attacks on the US actually caused the US to be attacked (and it is hard to believe that the WTC attacks which the army totally failed to prevent were not related to the typical <mis>conduct of the US army in other people's countries) then clearly keeping it is "fucking stupid."

I'd say that over the last 30 years at least, the US army has cost more lives than it has "saved". Personally, I think "doing the right thing" is more important than "doing the easiest thing" - I guess that makes me 'pretty fucking stupid.' However, the same thing that makes me "pretty fucking stupid" is what makes the terrorists that attack the US "pretty fucking justified."

[jegtar]

[QUOTE=Ace42] Personally, I think "doing the right thing" is more important than "doing the easiest thing" QUOTE]

So I take it that you are voting for Nader and not the Baby Killer that brags about his time at war.

[Ace42]

So I take it that you are voting for Nader and not the Baby Killer that brags about his time at war.

I don't get to vote for an American president. And I don't like Kerry.

[Jasonik]

I don't get to vote for an American president. And I don't like Kerry.
You should work for the UN. They like to try to tell the United States how to act too. :p

[Ace42]

You should work for the UN. They like to try to tell the United States how to act too. :p

If the US listened, then the people in the WTC needn't've died. Sew and Reap.

[D_Raay]

The arguments I hear *for* the army is that they *protect* - the US army has not protected the US in some time, and has generally caused further animosity towards the US. Now, if the army, which is designed to prevent attacks on the US actually caused the US to be attacked (and it is hard to believe that the WTC attacks which the army totally failed to prevent were not related to the typical <mis>conduct of the US army in other people's countries) then clearly keeping it is "fucking stupid."

I'd say that over the last 30 years at least, the US army has cost more lives than it has "saved". Personally, I think "doing the right thing" is more important than "doing the easiest thing" - I guess that makes me 'pretty fucking stupid.' However, the same thing that makes me "pretty fucking stupid" is what makes the terrorists that attack the US "pretty fucking justified."
I wonder what the Founding fathers would think of all this?
The Founders had continually warned against foreign, entangling alliances. The Founders believed the United States should try to be friendly with all nations, but beholden to none. They knew that political interdependence leads to the development of power blocs, and power blocs ultimately lead to war.

[Ace42]

I wonder what the Founding fathers would think of all this?
The Founders had continually warned against foreign, entangling alliances. The Founders believed the United States should try to be friendly with all nations, but beholden to none. They knew that political interdependence leads to the development of power blocs, and power blocs ultimately lead to war.

The Constitution does happen to provide such mechanisms, namely, by declaring valid treaties "the supreme law of the land," particularly the most fundamental of them, the UN Charter. It further authorizes Congress to "define and punish...offenses against the law of nations," undergirded by the Charter in the contemporary era. It is, furthermore, a bit of an understatement to say that other nations "have not assigned Washington the right"; they have forcefully denied it that right, following the (at least rhetorical) lead of Washington, which largely crafted the Charter.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

The founding fathers need to resurrect and rewrite the constitution then.

[Jasonik]

If the US listened, then the people in the WTC needn't've died. S[o]w and Reap.
You contend Americans deserved to die on 9/11? Why because Clinton refused to pay UN dues in a timely fashion? Maybe because of Israel?

[Ace42]

You contend Americans deserved to die on 9/11? Why because Clinton refused to pay UN dues in a timely fashion? Maybe because of Israel?

Maybe it is to do with the hundreds of thousands of Arabs killed in their own countries by US weaponry used by US soldiers (and often Israeli soldiers also)?

Oh, hang on, those innocent women and children DESERVED to die, because they weren't Americans, yeah?

[jegtar]

needn't've
What country ARE you from? LOL

[Ace42]

One whose citizens correctly use contractions?

[Jasonik]

One whose citizens correctly use contractions?
(y)

I'm not saying anyone deserved to die, you are. Is your philosophical bent to never legitimize war, but rationalize it as recompense? That when war happens, it is because of a failure of diplomacy?

[King of Rock II]

we're not electing them to be soldiers, we're choosing a president, i can't believe this is still the only shit anyone's talking about

for real.

[Ace42]

I'm not saying anyone deserved to die, you are. Is your philosophical bent to never legitimize war, but rationalize it as recompense? That when war happens, it is because of a failure of diplomacy?

If you do not think "anyone" deserved to die, you cannot condone war. People die in wars, and thus when you enter one, you must know and accept that you are going to cause innocent people to die. A man that kills people who he doesn't think deserve to die is as sick as (possibly sicker than) someone who kills people who he does think deserve to.

War is *always* a failure of diplomacy. There are hundreds of quotes from dozens of intellectuals all of which stress the evil and horror of war. These people do not say "war is only nasty when your side loses" or "War is only wrong when you can't justify it well enough."

If you consider looking at the facts of the war clinically and without bias "rationalising" then yes, I am rationalising it as recompense. However, are you seriously telling me that Afghanistan and Iraq wasn't recompense (or retaliation / revenge as we like to call it in military circles) for Sept 11th?

If you agree with me (and pretty much everyone else in the world, including a lot of America citizens) in saying it was revenge, then clearly you can see that it is not *my* position, as I am quite disgusted by it, but it is the position of the US government, no matter how they ineffectually try to hide the issue with invisible WMDs, and a hypocritical and selective policy of "exporting democracy through regime change"

Personally, I do not condone terrorist actions, but as I have said time and time again, the US has commited atrocities quantifiably worse than those these people everyone expects me to loathe and hate have.

That is not "rational" or even moral. I think the fact that US citizens choose to overlook the faults they go to war with other nations over in their own government is indicative of a poorly educated nation with dangerously distorted value system.

[Jasonik]

I think the fact that US citizens choose to overlook the faults they go to war with other nations over in their own government is indicative of a poorly educated nation with dangerously distorted value system.

I agree. There is at present a distinct Machiavellian tone to the attitudes about war and 'collateral damage.' There is a certain detachment about the impact on *real* people's lives. But I think at a certain point the minutae of trying to consider every action through the prism of international opinion rather than national self interest will straightjacket the US, (which most of the world would love to see happen). At a certain point I believe the United States' policy is that the rest of the world needs to be friends with us, not the other way around.

[yeahwho]

At a certain point I believe the United States' policy is that the rest of the world needs to be friends with us, not the other way around.

Or What?

[Ace42]

But I think at a certain point the minutae of trying to consider every action through the prism of international opinion rather than national self interest will straightjacket the US, (which most of the world would love to see happen). At a certain point I believe the United States' policy is that the rest of the world needs to be friends with us, not the other way around.

For better or worse, spoken like a true American, bravo.

However, I will take up the point of "straight-jacket"

considering:

The study advocates that the U.S. exploit its nuclear arsenal to portray itself as "irrational and vindictive if its vital interests are attacked." That "should be a part of the national persona we project to all adversaries," particularly the "rogue states." "It hurts to portray ourselves as too fully rational and cool-headed," let alone committed to such silliness as international law and treaty obligations. "The fact that some elements" of the U.S. government "may appear to be potentially ‘out of control’ can be beneficial to creating and reinforcing fears and doubts within the minds of an adversary’s decision makers." The report resurrects Nixon’s "madman theory": our enemies should recognize that we are crazed and unpredictable, with extraordinary destructive force at our command, so they will bend to our will in fear. The concept was apparently devised in Israel in the 1950s by the governing Labor Party, whose leaders "preached in favor of acts of madness," Prime Minister Moshe Sharett records in his diary, warning that "we will go crazy" ("nishtagea") if crossed, a "secret weapon" aimed in part against the U.S., not considered sufficiently reliable at the time. In the hands of the world’s sole superpower, which regards itself as an outlaw state and is subject to few constraints from elites within, that stance poses no small problem for the world.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

I'd say that the rest of the world is quite justified in wanting the US "straight-jacketed" - as they (the government, and thus by extension the people that vote them into power and let them get away with it) have and continue to demonstrate they are not responsible enough to wield the power they do.

[D_Raay]

At a certain point I believe the United States' policy is that the rest of the world needs to be friends with us, not the other way around.
^
Quite the imperialistic statement there.

[Jasonik]

For better or worse, spoken like a true American, bravo.

However, I will take up the point of "straight-jacket"

considering:
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

I'd say that the rest of the world is quite justified in wanting the US "straight-jacketed" - as they (the government, and thus by extension the people that vote them into power and let them get away with it) have and continue to demonstrate they are not responsible enough to wield the power they do.
That's SELF AWARE AMERICAN to you!! :)

While I was reading the excerpt, I couldn't help thinking of how we drive here in Boston. The best of us exude a sort of unpredictable nervousness that makes other drivers wary, meaning they yield to you. In fact this style of driving is highly controlled and formed of the most subtle nuance, kind of how I view power wielding diplomacy.



^
Quite the imperialistic statement there.
It is a statement that makes an observation of US imperialistic tendencies.

*edit*
'Imperious' is probably more appropriate.