You british guys are lucky..

[D_Raay]

London, Sept. 18. (Guardian News Service: Members of the UK parliament mounting an attempt to impeach Tony Blair for allegedly misleading the country over the war with Iraq on Thursday expressed confidence they could secure enough support to force a debate early next year.

The organisers, who launched the campaign last month, have the backing of 21 MPs. By January they hope to secure 50 supporters to revive this antiquated parliamentary device.

The campaign has received added impetus from the United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, who declared the US-led invasion of Iraq illegal earlier this week.

Alex Salmond, the Scottish National Party leader and one of the organisers, said: ``It is important democratically, when all other procedures fail, that parliament call the prime minister to account.''

The campaign organisers will publish independent legal advice from barristers on Wednesday. ``It will be a robust argument in favour of impeachment,'' a member of the campaign said yesterday.
----
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3515925
Prime Minister Tony Blair tonight sought to quash claims he had been warned a year before the Iraq war began that it would result in chaos once Saddam Hussein was toppled.
He took the unusual step of speaking out after leaked documents were published in The Daily Telegraph detailing a series of concerns expressed by Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and some of the most senior officials in No 10 and Whitehall.
The Telegraph published secret memos sent to Mr Blair from his chief policy adviser Sir David Manning, Mr Straw himself and Peter Ricketts, policy director at the Foreign Office.

Mr Straw said no-one seemed to know what would happen after a war had been won, writing: “There seems to be a larger hole in this than anything.” Sir David, according to the Telegraph documents, warned Mr Blair that President George Bush had no answers to big questions such as “what happens on the morning after”.

The documents also make clear Mr Blair had signed up to the US policy of regime change in March 2002, a year before the conflict commenced.
------
Pretty damning evidence here. Blows the whole Saddam and 9/11 assertion right out the window(not that we all didn't know that anyway). I'm glad at least one country out there has politicians that are actually working in the public's best interests.

[Ace42]

Old news. http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=29031&highlight=impeach+blair
The Lib Dems are not generally supporting it, as they regard it as populist and f no value apart from a publicity stunt. Shame, as while I can see their point of view, I also concur with Alex Salmond. There is no other way to punish Blair for what is clearly a serious crime.

[Ace42]

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=417321&postcount=8

In reply to Chris in the other thread, yes, I got a reply dated 16th on Friday. He quotes Menzies Campbell "The verdict the government should fear is that of the British people at the next General Election."

Not good enough, not good enough by a long chalk. Any MP that does not fear failure to be re-elected could abuse their position in any number of ways and get off absolutely scot free.

I replied saying as much, stating that politicians, both good and bad, all have to face the censure of the electorate, and thus it is not a credible way of dealing with crimes of office.

[D_Raay]

Old news yes , but seemingly gaining momentum. Of course you live there you probably know better than I, just pointing out what I had just read this morning.

[sneakyimp]

So whose country stinks, Ace?

If you live in a glass house, you shouldn't throw stones.

[Ace42]

Actually, the Lib Dem party, which was recently polled at taking 1/3rd of support, is staunchly against the war, etc. They are garnering more and more support and have gone from being the 3rd party to a party of over one third. In the UK democracy, not only can members of independant or obscure parties get elected into parliament (and are also elected on votes, not some electoral collegiates interpretation of people's votes) but they do. There are MPs of numerous parties currently with seats in the House of Commons.

So really, the UK's democracy, whilst far from perfect, is head and shoulders against the bastardised and evidently corrupt US bi-partisan system.

[sneakyimp]

I fully agree that your electoral process is superior to ours. Proportional representation rocks! However, to make a blanket statement like 'your country stinks' is offensive. Especially when the name-caller is just an english cunt like you ;) (kidding there--my neighbor's english and that's what we call him).

but seriously, mr. high-and-mighty, you should face up to the fact that your country is currently awash in our political wake and your prime minister is our president's toadie.

To say nothing of the fact that your cuisine is bland, your beaches are cold, your teeth are bad, and your pop music is atrocious. I'll admit that I prefer to Spice Girls to Jessica Simpson, but jeez! What happend to the british rock invasion?

Don't get me wrong, I love the old country, I just think you should direct your criticisms more specifically. Have you ever even been here?

[sneakyimp]

OH...and what other country has the most troops in Iraq? UK? YES!

I pray you guys bail out so we get some sense here. We probably wouldn't have gone so willingly if you guys had balked.

[Ace42]

I fully agree that your electoral process is superior to ours. Proportional representation rocks! However, to make a blanket statement like 'your country stinks' is offensive.

And clearly ironic. Please don't make me flag up everything I post that is ironic, it would quite conceivably double my verbage.


but seriously, mr. high-and-mighty, you should face up to the fact that your country is currently awash in our political wake and your prime minister is our president's toadie.

You think I am not aware of this? However, our PM is a lone asshole (well, there are Blairites, but whilst nominated to positions of power, a lot of them are low profile and spin doctors) even Blair-supporters jump ship, including a record number of cabinet resignations, RE: Claire Short and Robin Cook. Can you see Tricky Dick Cheney jumping ship because he finds Buish's conduct immoral? The fact that temporarily the dissent was in the minority is quite different to the univocal stance taken by the US movers and shakers. Personally, I'd say this is a sorer indictment of a nation's state (of affairs, nothing to do with tribal sovereignty) than the fact that the PM supports another nation, and that a nation is economically dependant on another.


To say nothing of the fact that your cuisine is bland, your beaches are cold, your teeth are bad, and your pop music is atrocious. I'll admit that I prefer to Spice Girls to Jessica Simpson, but jeez! What happend to the british rock invasion?

Wrong on all accounts. The English gave the world Tikka Masala, the recipe is a truly English curry, and there are numerous other examples. The (admittedly lamentable) days of the raj, and a naval heritage have made English cuisine one of the most varied and worldly on the planet. The beaches are easily the warmest for our latitude on the planet. Our teeth are not in any way shape or form bad. If anything, the fact that our dental healthcare is free on the NHS means that everyone irrespective of economic means is guaranteed of sound treatment. Admittedly, in a lot of places (Wales) dentists are few and far between due to an employment issue, however that is a recent development, and thus not responsible for the misconception. And no, Jamie Oliver is not a normal Englishman. The Spice Girls were a joke, and a lot of traditional British genres (RNB, Brit Pop) have been subverted (The Who and The Stones were RNB, The Kinks etc were Brit Pop. These days RNB is black women singing about promiscuity and Brit Pop is teens whinging about Cola)

However, there are plenty of decent UK bands doing the rounds, they just don't make it to US shores - probably because the US music industry is predominantly geared around Country and Western, and thus totally alien to people with taste and sophistication. Listen to Queens Of The Stoneage, and then say English music is dead. But yes, due to an AMERICAN influence on the industry, boybands and crap like that has become de rigeur.


I just think you should direct your criticisms more specifically. Have you ever even been here?

I could do that, but it would remove the wit from my post. Also, I do not intend to create an Americaphobe's encyclopaedia. Red Necks, the KKK, Ghetto gangs, gun law, Mc Donalds, etc etc. Would provide volumes on their own.

And why would I need to visit America? Isn't it enough it is on the news daily, in the cinemas hourly, in the shops on every shelf, and on the internet posturing in every forum?

Let me guess, all the US tourists that arrive here are only the lame ones? Non-inbred Americans refrain from visiting humble Europe because it is crass?

And "you guys balked" ? My MP and his party have been against the war since its inception. This is the reason they have accredited to their dramatically increasing popularity. Furthermore, numerous MPs have stated that the government dossier on the issue of WMD (the one "criticised but not" in the Butler report) was what caused them to OK it, and it is the fact that it was clearly misleading which legitimised the war. They could not help being lied to. (Not to mention a lot of people didn't buy it anyway)

I could lookup the tally of the votes to go to war, I can't remember how close it was, especially considering the overwhelming Labour majority Tony scored in the previous general election.

[sneakyimp]

Please spare me the minutia of British politics and I will spare you the minutia of American politics to the extent I can. Calling Tikka Masala 'British food' is like calling Burritos 'American food'. And calling English cuisine "one of the most varied and worldly on the planet" beggars belief. You can't take credit for the cultural contributions of your imperial terroritories. Furthermore, calling the statement "your country stinks" ironic and then backing it up with that tirade only evinces the sincerity of your sentiment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no defender of American foreign policy or the current administration. Dick Cheney would never jump ship because he's the evil bastard who thinks everything up. GW is just the face. As for univocal support, you probably aren't aware of just how torn this country is at the moment. At the time, our congress was indeed univocal. Let's see how your parliament responds when 3,000 people are killed in London some day. The situation has since dramatically changed (although NOT ENOUGH for my taste). Am I being Univocal when I say I oppose the war?

You should also take some time to explore your nation's illustrious past. How about your treatment of the Irish for 800 years? Oliver Cromwell? Doesn't he have a big street named after him in London or something?

And good English bands DO make it here. I'm a huge fan of Six By Seven (maybe not your cup of tea but I sure love them). To claim that your musical woes are due to American influence is ludicrous. BOTH of our countries music woes are due to music industry idiocy. That's why your good bands never get here and ours never get there. Or perhaps it makes more sense to chalk it up to the idiocy of the average consumer/voter. That's really where the problem is. You can only sell music if it's bland enough to be acceptable to a large crowd.

Some advice: Don't knock it til you try it. I haven't been to the UK. I have been to France, Italy, Germany, Amsterdam, Iceland, Mexico, Canada, and South Africa and I happen to think we stack up pretty well as places to visit. Before you get on your high horse about your beloved UK, and before you start railing on the United States, you might want to get some life experience and some facts.

I like the UK. We owe you a lot--good stuff and bad. You also owe us a lot--good stuff and bad.

feel free to carry on with the irony, just try to vary it up a bit, please?

[Ace42]

Please spare me the minutia of British politics and I will spare you the minutia of American politics to the extent I can. Calling Tikka Masala 'British food' is like calling Burritos 'American food'. And calling English cuisine "one of the most varied and worldly on the planet" beggars belief. You can't take credit for the cultural contributions of your imperial terroritories.

So an Asian in the UK is not a British citizen? He has to renounce his cultural heritage? England is a multi-cultural country - to suggest that all Anglo-Asians have to eat roast beef is racist in the extreme. Tikka Masala is English because the recipe was conceived in England. While its inspiration may be from a corner of the empire, that is like saying curry is not an Indian dish because its origins come from persian and mongol invaders a millenia ago. Would you say Rock music as African? Well it has its origins in Blues and Jazz, both of which have a negro basis from African slaves. Does that make Rock "Black music" ?


Furthermore, calling the statement "your country stinks" ironic and then backing it up with that tirade only evinces the sincerity of your sentiment.

It does no such thing. Irony implies that you mean something other than what you say, it does not mean you believe the opposite (That would be sarcasm) nor does it mean that you cannot be making a point related to the issue.
As for univocal support, you probably aren't aware of just how torn this country is at the moment. At the time, our congress was indeed univocal. Let's see how your parliament responds when 3,000 people are killed in London some day. The situation has since dramatically changed (although NOT ENOUGH for my taste). Am I being Univocal when I say I oppose the war?

Univocal in GOVERNMENT, not in the people, I thought that was obvious, but as you seem intent on splitting hairs, I guess I have to clarify that. I am well aware of the split between the populace. As for how "my parliament reponds" - we have a little something called "The IRA" that were bombing our capital and all over our country for years. I know you are aware of this, so don't try and bait me into belittling your arguement.


You should also take some time to explore your nation's illustrious past. How about your treatment of the Irish for 800 years? Oliver Cromwell? Doesn't he have a big street named after him in London or something?

Sorry, is McDonalds, the KKK, Gun Law, Rednecks, etc a thing of the past? I'd bring up the tyrannies of the US from 800 years ago, except they are EXACTLY THE SAME. Although, to be precise, 800 years ago was circa 1200ad. That is pre-chaucer, pre northern Ireland, pre-house of commons, and not that later than the Norman Invasion, which is so monumentally different to the UK of today as to be irrelevant, AS YOU WELL KNOW.


And good English bands DO make it here. I'm a huge fan of Six By Seven (maybe not your cup of tea but I sure love them). To claim that your musical woes are due to American influence is ludicrous. BOTH of our countries music woes are due to music industry idiocy. That's why your good bands never get here and ours never get there. Or perhaps it makes more sense to chalk it up to the idiocy of the average consumer/voter. That's really where the problem is. You can only sell music if it's bland enough to be acceptable to a large crowd.

I have never even heard of "six by seven," and you seem to have a problem inferring a split between US institutions and the people. Presumably this is the source of the offence. When I said "American influence" - I did not mean the influence of some yank in the street listening to his walkman, I self-evidently meant the influence of the recording industry, which is predominantly US owned. Can you name many major UK owned and operated recording labels? I can't. Likewise when I talk about US politics, I am clearly talking about people who are a part of political mechanisms. It strikes me as some sort of perverse US patriotism that whenever you use "American" as an adjective, rather than taking is as describing in context the US section of that phenomenon / entity / organisation / industry / whatever they seem to take it personally. When I talk about "US politics" I talk about the people that matter (in the pragmatic, not dogmatic sense) people in office, not the uninformed masses.

Some advice: Don't knock it til you try it. I haven't been to the UK. I have been to France, Italy, Germany, Amsterdam, Iceland, Mexico, Canada, and South Africa and I happen to think we stack up pretty well as places to visit. Before you get on your high horse about your beloved UK, and before you start railing on the United States, you might want to get some life experience and some facts.

Because I haven't visited the US that means I have not travelled? How condescending is that? Also, I don't have to be a mechanic to know that a car with no wheels won't run.


I like the UK. We owe you a lot--good stuff and bad. You also owe us a lot--good stuff and bad.

And you were the one talking about this forum being a circle-jerk, right? Or have I got you confused with someone else?

feel free to carry on with the irony, just try to vary it up a bit, please?

Yanks don't get irony, FACT.

</irony>

[sneakyimp]

It does no such thing. Irony implies that you mean something other than what you say, it does not mean you believe the opposite (That would be sarcasm) nor does it mean that you cannot be making a point related to the issue.

All I was saying was that you said "America Stinks" and then you back it up with all kinds of supporting evidence and vitriol. If you're going to try and convince me that all of that last post is irony, please don't bother. I think I know what irony is and it feels a bit different to me. Yes, our country stinks. You've convinced me.

ok ok...please don't call me racist. I was merely implying that there are no restaurants here that offer "English food". I didn't get on your case for implying that Tikka Masala was "English Food". We don't take credit for contributions Americans have made to mexican food or italian food (american style pizza apparently is very different from italian cuisine). We still call them mexican food and italian food, respectively.

And R&B is an American invention. From wikipedia.org:
Rhythm and blues (or R & B) is a musical marketing term introduced in the United States in the late 1940s by Billboard magazine. It replaced the term race music, which was deemed offensive. To some extent, the kind of music it is attached to has changed to whatever form of contemporary music is popular with African-American pop musicians and audiences.

Rock music is African-American...it's a different kettle of fish than a single curry recipe. An analogy might be to Indian cuisine. Tikka Masala is a British contribution to Indian cuisine just like "You Really Got Me" is a British contribution to Rock & Roll. You're talking entirely different scales here.

As for your inclusion of the IRA in this argument--beware! You will have a hard time justifying 800 years of oppression of 'terrorists' on the one hand and criticizing American treatment of 'terrorists' on the other hand. My next door neighbor is Patrick Cassidy (the irish composer who did Vide Cor Meum). He personally knows an innocent Irish man who was imprisoned for 16 years and tortured. Please don't try to take the high road when you're talking about brutal oppression of people. We don't have to go back 800 years...we only have to go back to Maggie Thatcher.


Because I haven't visited the US that means I have not travelled? How condescending is that? Also, I don't have to be a mechanic to know that a car with no wheels won't run.

And you were the one talking about this forum being a circle-jerk, right? Or have I got you confused with someone else?

Yanks don't get irony, FACT.

I sense anger! I never said you haven't traveled. I did imply you need life experience--certainly before you start slamming a country you've never been to! You might even try visiting! I would recommend New York City or Boston (great rock scene there) or perhaps Los Angeles.

I would like to officially apologize on behalf of all yanks for not getting your irony. I just can't find it in this post.

[Ace42]

All I was saying was that you said "America Stinks" and then you back it up with all kinds of supporting evidence and vitriol.

No, then you brought it up, I was merely making the point that there is more than enough proof to maintain that position, irrespective of the UK.

I think I know what irony is and it feels a bit different to me.

I don't think you do, as one of the significant things about irony is its ambiguity, and things that are ambiguous are by very definition "unknowable."

please don't call me racist.

I wasn't, I said "that to suggest..." merely highlighting how ridiculous that line of argument is. It was not an accusation.

I was merely implying that there are no restaurants here that offer "English food". I didn't get on your case for implying that Tikka Masala was "English Food". We don't take credit for contributions Americans have made to mexican food or italian food (american style pizza apparently is very different from italian cuisine). We still call them mexican food and italian food, respectively.

If an "Indian" restaurant offers Tikka Masala, it is offering "English Food" - the fact that its style is named after a different country is irrelevant. Numerous dishes you'd find at an "Indian" takeaway are not directly related to Indian origins. You can't use customary nomenclature to argue that a country hasn't made a contribution to world cuisine, only that it hasn't made a contribution to NAMING world cuisine.

And R&B is an American invention.

So is the recipe for Tikka Masala (English, that is), and yet you are arguing that because its style has a basis in part of the Empire, it is not "English." In the same way, Rhythm and blues (or R & B) is a musical marketing term introduced in the United States in the late 1940s by Billboard magazine. It replaced the term race music, which was deemed offensive.

"Race music" is not of a white-american origin and yet is no less "American" for it than Tikka Masala is English.


Rock music is African-American...it's a different kettle of fish than a single curry recipe. An analogy might be to Indian cuisine. Tikka Masala is a British contribution to Indian cuisine just like "You Really Got Me" is a British contribution to Rock & Roll. You're talking entirely different scales here.

Except that "Indian Cuisine" is itself a product of diverse influences. The fact that it has come to be known as "Indian" has no actually bearing on ownership or claims of creation. Several "Indian cuisine" curries predate the earliest Indian curry recipes, being (as I said earlier) imported from elsewhere. Rock music is African-American in origin, however look at who defines the genre - would you say *they* are exclusively or even predominantly Afro-American influences? Yes there were many, but there are jsut as many white innovators in the genre.

Would you say Elvis and every subsequent white Rock musician was "a white contribution to black music" ?

If your argument only holds true for a very narrow margin, then it is inconsistant to say the least. The mere fact that "when scaled up" it doesn't suit your argument is neither here nor there.

I think, waffle and quibbling over the facts aside, you can admit that England has created numerous meals in a wide diversity of cultural styles, etc and as such it reiterates my original point.


As for your inclusion of the IRA in this argument--beware! You will have a hard time justifying 800 years of oppression of 'terrorists' on the one hand and criticizing American treatment of 'terrorists' on the other hand.

Want to bet? If I did feel the need to enter such an endeavour, which I do not, I might highlight for starters you are talking bullshit. 800 years is a total nonsense, again as I said previously. The two are totally different as you (hopefully) well know.

Not to mention that England today bears less resemblance to it then in all respects (Geography, topography, sociology, politics, religion, etc etc etc) than the US represents communist russia, nazi germany, etc, etc.

The monarcy of England 800 years ago was Norman, and thus totally Alien to the then Saxon public. It was a barbaric time the world over, etc. If you want to go that far back, why not go back an extra 200 years and bring up the fact that the Vikings used Ireland as a staging post for raids on the Saxons, like that makes any difference whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that at that time there was no international law, no bills of human rights, and any treaties were made by kings in their name, and thus were not representative of the people at that time. The same cannot be said of the world today. Again, this proves the comparison is meaningless.

If your point is that "England 800 years ago was as shit and shitty as the US is now" then fair enough, you won't have any complaints from me.

He personally knows an innocent Irish man who was imprisoned for 16 years and tortured. Please don't try to take the high road when you're talking about brutal oppression of people. We don't have to go back 800 years...we only have to go back to Maggie Thatcher.

This I concur with. And you CAN'T go back 800 years ago, so it was very facetitous of you to attempt such a thing. However, if you want to talk about more conteporary events, we might actually get somewhere. Yes, mistakes were made, and the people of all countries involved paid for it with continued bloodshed. Then lessons were learned, concessions made, and (although it is far from resolved) thus progress is being made. For the new millenium England is just starting to have done with these injustices and fix what is broken. 800 years of history (whether irrelevant or no) is hard to put down. It is quite different to the USA starting shit at the dawn of a new millienium, creating conflict in face of treaties that have been in place before the states that are being antagonised even existed.

I am not, and have not, said that the UK is blameless. I have and will continue to respond point by point to your criticisms. When you come up with something good (and I can provide you with ample enough reasons if you feel unable to manage on your own) I will concede that it makes the UK comparatively shitty to the US, however that does not alter the fact that the US has embarked on imperialist wars in supposedly an advanced and educated epoch, a good 40 years after the UK had all but finished dismantling (often voluntarily) its empire and turning it over to the indigenous people. The UK imperialistic errors that were made came at a time when people believed you could tell if a person was a criminal by the bumps on their head, that if trains went fast enough, they could suffocate you by forcing the chest to be compressed, etc, etc. What is your excuse is this day and age, hmmm? It is one thing to have been a Nazi in Germany in 1939, it is another thing altogether to be one here today, hmmm?

I would like to officially apologize on behalf of all yanks for not getting your irony. I just can't find it in this post.

If it was obvious, then there would be no point in me posting as you'd all expect it. It would be a "circle-jerk" (can you tell I like that expression?)

[Ace42]

Oh, and I am not angry, it is nice to have a discussion with someone who is at least in possession of a cursory understanding of the facts, and is eloquent enough to make his point. However the fact that there were numerous (admittedly interesting) red-herrings made my reply overly-long and 'all-over-the-place' which is relatively frustrating.

[sneakyimp]

IRONY:
1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play -- called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

Do you mean ironic in the sense of def 1 or def 2? If it was definition 1, you can be utterly convinced that your pretense has utterly destroyed my false conceptions. America Sucks. Your sophistry is insurmountable.

If you mean definition 2, are you trying to say that when you said "Your Country Stinks" that you actually meant something else? What, pray tell, was it?

And now, the "irony" of the 3rd definition is now painfully aware to me. I never expected to get caught in this mire of ridiculous quibbling over such an inconsequential nothing. If there is an audience for this, could someone please inform this player what the big joke is?

I would like to say a couple of thing:
* Calling Tikka Masala "English Food" is a ludicrous conceit.
* Saying that rock music is American is, in my opinion, less ludicrous than your conceit because it sounds so very different than native African music. Just because it is not white does not mean that it is not American. Your forget that less than half of the United States population is white.
* Aside from the sandwich, i am blissfully unaware of any English contributions to world cuisine. Like I said, we have no "English Food" restaurants here.

And lastly, I would repeat my point that you shouldn't knock something until you try it. Your argument would have a lot more weight with even a tiny bit of first hand experience.

[ASsman]

Thats all she wrote.

[Ace42]

If you mean definition 2, are you trying to say that when you said "Your Country Stinks" that you actually meant something else? What, pray tell, was it?

Well, to totally destroy the whole point of using irony, IE the ambiguity, my point was merely that a lot of US citizens, especially the more right-wing people who post on this forum, are under the misapprehension that America is (and this is a direct quote from a numbre of yanks it has been my misfortune to talk with) "the greatest country on Earth" when this is demonstrably not so.


I would like to say a couple of thing:
* Calling Tikka Masala "English Food" is a ludicrous conceit.

Why, it was made in England, and for decades was not available in India. The only reason is has transmigrated is because of improved transportation and economic links which are a product of less than a lifetime. If you mean for strictly advertising / descriptive purposes, I would concur, but as in the original context and throughout this discussion I have maintained and been absolutely clear that I was referring solely to the fact of its creation and availability, not some sort of obscure taxonomic pendanticism, it is equally ludicrous to say that despite it being made by the English, being available for quite some time only in England, that it would never have been created except for the English, it still does not disprove the myth that all English food is bland and non-descript.


* Saying that rock music is American is, in my opinion, less ludicrous than your conceit because it sounds so very different than native African music. Just because it is not white does not mean that it is not American. Your forget that less than half of the United States population is white.

A significant part of the English population is asian, a point I made several posts ago.


* Aside from the sandwich, i am blissfully unaware of any English contributions to world cuisine. Like I said, we have no "English Food" restaurants here.

No England, no Tikka Masala. That simple. Whether you decide to withold credit simply because, when catergorised, you'd choose to arbitrarily call it "Indian" is beside the point.

And lastly, I would repeat my point that you shouldn't knock something until you try it. Your argument would have a lot more weight with even a tiny bit of first hand experience.

I disagree. Many people have first hand experience of all manner of things, and yet understand it in a less perfect or precise manner than people who never witness it firsthand. As Ali G said last night to his panel of scholarly Americans "I has lived there [England] me whole life, I think I knows what I iz talkin' about better than you" - despite talking absolute drivel.

People who design airplane wings need not be pilots, etc.

And lastly, as for the old adage "don't knock it until you've tried it" - that equally applies to sticking your finger in a flame. Doesn't mean I'll try it before saying "but that'll burn you!"

[Ace42]

To further this point, a spot of idle googling drew up numerous anecdotes highlighting the significant differences between traditional Indian curries, and the now equally customary English curry, some dating back well over a century.

"I think it shows the differences between the Indian and British curries, and proves there is a difference in the type of ingredients available in England," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2203663.stm

"Half the taste and colour of the curry would be destroyed if it were cooked in the very peculiar way that an English woman in England once cooked it.

http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/brprep.html

^^ Interesting, not because it suggests a national method, but because of the date.

On closer inspection, however, there is just as much evidence to suggest the word was English all along. (...)Then, in Richard II’s reign (1377-1399) the first real English cookery book was written. Richard employed 200 cooks and they, plus others including philosophers, produced a work with 196 recipes in 1390 called ‘The Forme of Cury’. ‘Cury’ was the Old English word for cooking derived from the French ‘cuire’ - to cook, boil, grill - hence cuisine. (...)So when the English merchants landed at Surat in 1608 and 1612, then Calcutta 1633, Madras 1640 and Bombay 1668, the word ‘cury’ had been part of the English language for well over two hundred years. In fact, it was noted that the meal from Emperor Jahangir’s kitchens of dumpukht fowl stewed in butter with spices, almond and raisins served to those merchants in 1612, was very similar to a recipe for English Chicken Pie in a popular cookery book of the time, ‘The English Hus-wife’ by Gevase Markham. Indeed many spices had been in Europe for hundreds of years by then, after the conquests of the Romans in 40AD and the taking of Al Andulus by the Moors in 711 AD, bringing to Europe the culinary treasures of the spice routes.(...)Indeed Hobson -Jobson even accepts that there is a possibility that “the kind of curry used by Europeans and Mohommedans is not of purely Indian origin, but has come down from the spiced cookery of medieval Europe and Western Asia.”(...)Whatever the truth, ‘curry’ was rapidly adopted in Britain. In 1747 Hannah Glasse produced the first known recipe for modern ‘currey’ in Glasse’s Art of Cookery and by 1773 at least one London Coffee House had curry on the menu. In 1791 Stephana Malcom, the grandaughter of the Laird of Craig included a curry recipe she called Chicken Topperfield plus Currypowder, Chutnies and Mulligatawny soup as recorded in ‘In The Lairds Kitchen, Three Hundred Years of Food in Scotland’. (...)The development of the curry industry in Britain has been peculiarly Anglo-Asian such that many people brandish ‘authenticity’ as if it were the Holy Grail. According to Camellia Panjabi “Ninety nine per cent of Indians do not have a tandoor and so neither Tandoori Chicken nor Naan are part of India’s middle class cuisine. This is even so in the Punjab, although some villages have communal tandoors where rotis can be baked. Ninety five per cent of Indians don’t know what a vindaloo, jhal farezi or, for that matter, a Madras curry is”.

http://www.menumagazine.co.uk/book/curryhistory.html

English Indian restaurants have developed the Curry to such a level that it has become an integral part of English Cuisine. Some Indian food is actually exported from the United Kingdom to India and there was an instance of an Englishman asking for a local curry to be sent to Australia (which has also taken to the curry with enthusiasm).

http://www.fact-index.com/c/cu/curry.html

In the Old English tradition that evolved from making the Indian style curries, milder to suit the whole family

http://www.thecurrymakers.com.au/curry_old_english.htm

A lot of that should be quite compelling.

Amit Roy was quite correct to observe that the dish does not hail from India and that it was specifically created to appeal to the British palate by some very astute restaurateurs. This much is not in doubt but when one moves on to the history of the dish, fact becomes fiction and depends on just who one talks to.

http://www.menumagazine.co.uk/tikkamasala.html

Balti is the name for a style of food first devised in Birmingham, England around the 1980s. The food is a curry-style dish, taking its name from the steel or iron pot in which it is cooked and served, the balti (literally, "bucket"). Normally the balti is served with a large naan bread; fragments of the bread are dipped in and used to scoop up the curry sauce. The food and its style of presentation proved very popular, and Balti restaurants have gradually opened up throughout a large part of Britain.

http://www.fact-index.com/b/ba/balti.html

[D_Raay]

Aside from the sandwich, i am blissfully unaware of any English contributions to world cuisine. Like I said, we have no "English Food" restaurants here. Correct me if I'm wrong but why would we have "English food" restaurants when it really hasn't been that long since we left her? Aren't they one and the same pretty much? Melting pot aside of course. Oh and I believe they classify fish and chips as being "English" food.

[sneakyimp]

Well, to totally destroy the whole point of using irony, IE the ambiguity, my point was merely that a lot of US citizens, especially the more right-wing people who post on this forum, are under the misapprehension that America is (and this is a direct quote from a numbre of yanks it has been my misfortune to talk with) "the greatest country on Earth" when this is demonstrably not so.

I would stand by my assertion that you were not being ironic. To say a country sucks meaning basically exactly that is not ironic at all.

D_Raay, I had considered your point there...that we don't have "English food" restaurants because we are so very English ourselves. But that might have meant in some convouluted logical way that I would have to cede the invention of rock & roll to the British. (i'm kidding about that). but yes i actually did consider that. i'm actually have german/scot/irish heritage myself. surname "adams".

Beyond that, I have completely lost my enthusiasm for this thread. I never meant it to get serious enough that I would have to read about English contributions to curry cooking. If you have no desire to ever visit the United States then fine. I would have to be responsible for forcing you to have fun here on one of our lovely southern california beaches...or drinking california wine (appropriated from older countries--i know! but good nevertheless) or perhaps enjoying some authentic boston rock that you will never hear on the radio...or....whatever.

i'm raising the white flag! i can no longer bear this war of attrition.

[valvano]

you british guys are lucky as well because Disney isnt scared to broadcast "Song of the South" there unlike here in the US, where they are scared of the PCers.....

[Echewta]

Burger King comes from England.

[ASsman]

Awesome.

[Ace42]

I would stand by my assertion that you were not being ironic. To say a country sucks meaning basically exactly that is not ironic at all.

No such thing. Irony (to grossly over-simplify, but still maintain the core truth) is merely saying one thing, whilst meaning another. Sarcasm is a FORM of irony (where what you say is the opposite of what you mean), *not* a synonym for it.

Thus, you to say a country stinks (is crap), and mean "it is not as good as it thinks it is" is ironic. Likewise, to say "your country stinks, because you all drive on the right-hand side of the road" would be ironic, as clearly, driving on a certain side of the road may well have good and bad points, but would not justify the blanket descriptor of "sucky." Adding further reasons why driving on the RHS of the road would not make the comment any less ironic, as supporting evidence does not necessarily indicate how the original sentance was intended.

Eitherway, I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it, as it is certainly the case. Whether you believe my sentiments were actually different to "it stinks" is of course up to you, you can feel free to call me a liar. However, if I was going to make a blanket criticism of all aspects of a country, I'd certainly do it in a more inscrutable manner.

D_Raay, I had considered your point there...that we don't have "English food" restaurants because we are so very English ourselves. But that might have meant in some convouluted logical way that I would have to cede the invention of rock & roll to the British. (i'm kidding about that). but yes i actually did consider that. i'm actually have german/scot/irish heritage myself. surname "adams".


I never meant it to get serious enough that I would have to read about English contributions to curry cooking.

That's what happens when you fail to get someone's irony. It loses its magic, entertainment value, ambiguity and brevity if you are anal-retentive enough to demand an explanation.

I would have to be responsible for forcing you to have fun here on one of our lovely southern california beaches...or drinking california wine

I don't like hot weather, it makes me too uncomfortable to do anything, and brings out the insects. And I drink californian chardonnays quite regularly. A lot of pubs serve them.

[sneakyimp]

ok...to say "your country stinks" and mean something like "your country is not as good as you think it is" might technically fall under the definition of irony, but it's a damn poor and unwitty example of irony, in my humble opinion. In my defense, it's pretty easy to miss your "irony".

But then, being English (or at least a citizen of the UK), you are probably better qualified to define irony.

And to be VERY clear, I don't recall EVER asking you for any explanation of your assertion that my country stinks. I started by ribbing you and then got caught in the trap of critiquing your myopic swiss cheese logic.

And YES. America (especially the United States) REALLY REALLY SUCKS. You should never ever come here.

[Ace42]

But then, being English (or at least a citizen of the UK), you are probably better qualified to define irony.

And being in possession of a degree in English Literature helps...


And to be VERY clear, I don't recall EVER asking you for any explanation of your assertion that my country stinks. I started by ribbing you and then got caught in the trap of critiquing your myopic swiss cheese logic.

Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.

- Sherlock Holmes.

[sneakyimp]

please don't try and fight me on the logic. My degree is in computer science.

[Ace42]

I have computing qualifications also, although nothing comparable to degree level. Although I would be amused if you chose to present a logic flow-diagram.

[sneakyimp]

like i said before: your logic is swiss cheese. no such diagram could possibly exist.

[Ace42]

I meant of your arguement. And mere assertion is not enough. It is a pity I have put your nose so firmly out of joint.

[sneakyimp]

Your perception of my mood is only a hair more accurate than your perception of irony. I'm not out-of-joint, I'm apathetic.