The Black vote

[D_Raay]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6306466&src=rss/domesticNews&section=news
Vicky Beasley, a field officer for People for the American Way, listed some of the ways voters have been "discouraged" from voting.

"In elections in Baltimore in 2002 and in Georgia last year, black voters were sent fliers saying anyone who hadn't paid utility bills or had outstanding parking tickets or were behind on their rent would be arrested at polling stations. It happens in every election cycle," she said.

In a mayoral election in Philadelphia last year, people pretending to be plainclothes police officers stood outside some polling stations asking people to identify themselves. There have also been reports of mysterious people videotaping people waiting in line to vote in black neighborhoods.

Minority voters may be deterred from voting simply by election officials demanding to see drivers' licenses before handing them a ballot, according to Spencer Overton, who teaches law at George Washington University. The federal government does not require people to produce a photo identification unless they are first-time voters who registered by mail.

"African Americans are four to five times less likely than whites to have a photo ID," Overton said at a recent briefing on minority disenfranchisement.
-------
I wonder to myself(within the confines of my own ass, of course) how anyone could support the right at all. Not that the left is innocent but come on, threatening arrests at polling stations? Well, I guess if you are racist you just give yourself a satisfactory pat on the back.

[valvano]

last time I looked, in Baltimore and Philly democrats were the huge majority in these city govts and held the vast majority of the power (mayor, election board, city council, education board, etc)

so why did they let all this stuff happen, if in fact it is true (i wouldn believe anything put out by the ultra liberal People for the American Way)

sounds like if it is indeed true, somebody needs to get some republicans elected in these cities to clean up these dirty democrats......

thanks for the info!!!

(y)

[D_Raay]

last time I looked, in Baltimore and Philly democrats were the huge majority in these city govts and held the vast majority of the power (mayor, election board, city council, education board, etc)

so why did they let all this stuff happen, if in fact it is true (i wouldn believe anything put out by the ultra liberal People for the American Way)

sounds like if it is indeed true, somebody needs to get some republicans elected in these cities to clean up these dirty democrats......

thanks for the info!!!

(y)
Well, if you had read the link I provided you would of noticed that the principle source of the article is Reuters. The parts I pasted out of it were examples of how they could dissuage the black voters in the upcoming US election. Also, what on earth would make you think that any Democrats in Baltimore or Philadelphia would want to keep black voters out ?

[valvano]

sounds to me that you are making a racists assumption in that blacks are only supposed to vote for democrats...........i have no idea why they would want to kept that vote out, but since democrats have all the power in the cities (and you can see the results of that in Baltimore, high crime rate and terrible schools) they need to take the heat for this

again, if all this is true.......

:confused:

[D_Raay]

sounds to me that you are making a racists assumption in that blacks are only supposed to vote for democrats...........i have no idea why they would want to kept that vote out, but since democrats have all the power in the cities (and you can see the results of that in Baltimore, high crime rate and terrible schools) they need to take the heat for this

again, if all this is true.......

:confused:
You are not making much sense. Blacks historically and undoubtedly always vote democrat. You can't dispute that. And I would say in this upcoming election Bush would be lucky to get 5% of the black vote. The reason I posted this thread was to show a few examples of how they could suppress the black vote of which they will recieve almost none of. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[alexisugly]

al gore for president!

[valvano]

again, i ask, how could anybody supress any votes in these cities since the vast majority of the power at all levels of bureaucracy are controlled by democrats?????? unless, it was...gulp,.....a democrat doing the supressing!!!!!!!




:eek:

[D_Raay]

again, i ask, how could anybody supress any votes in these cities since the vast majority of the power at all levels of bureaucracy are controlled by democrats?????? unless, it was...gulp,.....a democrat doing the supressing!!!!!!!




:eek:
The point of the thread was to show how the black vote could be supressed, is there an echo in here? And what exactly makes you say that the democrats control all levels of bureaucracy within major cities?

[DroppinScience]

sounds to me that you are making a racists assumption in that blacks are only supposed to vote for democrats...........

As opposed to voting Republican, who haven't done shit for African-Americans since the early 20th century? :rolleyes:

[BeastieBoys.com]

again, i ask, how could anybody supress any votes in these cities since the vast majority of the power at all levels of bureaucracy are controlled by democrats?????? unless, it was...gulp,.....a democrat doing the supressing!!!!!!!

:eek:

What makes you think that suppression is always done by a majority? You are determined to convince yourself you are right, ain't ya.

All it takes is a few donut sessions to organize a few cops to sit outside polling places trolling for warrants. Not the workings of a bureaucracy.

[D_Raay]

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/6957314.htm?1c
How soon we forget about stuff like this too valvano,
A sophisticated electronic listening device with multiple microphones was found yesterday morning hidden in the ceiling of Mayor Street's City Hall office.

Within hours, the FBI said that the eavesdropping device was not related to the mayor's race, but declined to explain how it knew that so quickly.

[SobaViolence]

re: the black vote

it won't matter. they are pretty much ghosts.

sorry MLK, jr, your dream is dead.

[SobaViolence]

What if Republican shenanigans tip the election? Many members of the media are looking at the dangers voting machines may pose to the integrity of the national election. Others are wondering whether voters may be disenfranchised by use of faulty felon lists, as happened in Florida in 2000. But there is another danger: Republicans may use a variety of tactics to suppress the vote of racial minorities in swing states. These tactics could determine control of the White House or the Senate.


the progressive (http://www.progressive.org/oct04/cusac1004.html)

[ClifRa JOnes]

All right people, let's look at some facts here.

African Americans are approximatly 12% of the US population. They have never made a significant impact on a US presidential election.

They voted for Al Gore at a rate of over 90%, he still lost.

In many congressional districts (such as the 3rd district of Florida) you could surpress the black vote by 50% and a black liberal Democrat would still win.

In many local district the lines are drawn the same way so surpressing the black vote will not gain a white guy any advantage either.

So I ask you, why would Republicans take the time, money and risk legal action (because it's a crime) to engage in an activity that has very little chance of helping them win elections?

It's all a matter of who benifits.

Who benifits from blacks being poor and ignorant?
--Corporations? Nope, they don't have the money to buy thier products.
--Employers? Nope, they make very bad employees.
--Republicans? Nope, they don't vote for us.
--Leftist white, racist, liberal Democrats? You betcha!

You gotta keep the proletariat under control or they will turn on you.
(just ask the Soviets)

We will never be subject to the tyranny of the proletariat!

[EN[i]GMA]

Damn straight! Bourgeiosie all the way motherfucker!

[GreenEarthAl]

My impression of the original post is not that it is organized or sanctioned officials engaged in these activities. Things like letters sent to scare off potential poor voters has typically been organized not by actual government channels, rather by think tanks, PR firms and political operatives that are conveniently one or two steps removed from actually opperating under an official capacity for campaigns.

People who show up to video tape voters obviously has a disuasive effect on voters who are reluctant voters to begin with. This could just as easily be done by Republobloggers or the young conservative club on campus. Having a Democratic mayor has absolutely nothing to do with it.

While black make up some 12ish percent of the US population it is idiotic to say they have never helped decide an election or that no one is worried about their vote. There are many states that the black vote goes a long way toward deciding. And this year, in really close states like Pennsylvania, the black vote in Philly is absolutely vital.



It's all a matter of who benifits.

Who benifits from blacks being poor and ignorant?
--Corporations? Nope, they don't have the money to buy thier products.
--Employers? Nope, they make very bad employees.
--Republicans? Nope, they don't vote for us.
--Leftist white, racist, liberal Democrats? You betcha!


That's moronic. Corporations benefit a great deal from black consumerism. Blacks spend a far greater percentage of their disposable income and they are highly sought after by a variety of industries.

Employers benefit greatly from having a large pool of working poor and particularly black working poor.

Republicans benefit from blacks being poor and undereducated:
* They are easier to dissuade from voting
* They can be used as resource for the corporate prison CEO friends and then afterwards they can be forbidden to vote
* They are easier to fool with all the fox news Ra-ra support the troops nonsense (I disagree with the person who said Bush will be lucky to get 5% of the black vote this year. I'm guessing this will be a record year for the Republicans in terms of raw numbers of black votes. No idea what percentage that will translate into since it may be a record turnout in black voter totals for both sides)

Anyway, at least your 4th point is true. White liberal, stealth racist Democrats do benefit from the maintenance of black poverty.

[deita]

straight up, you are right on with that, but i'd like to add it isn't just the poor blacks, it is all the poor people.

[DroppinScience]

Thanks GEA for setting valvano STRAIGHT! (y)

[drobertson420]

Why does it have to be"Black Vote" "White Vote" "Green Vote"
If you qualify to vote, VOTE! If your a felon or have a warrant out for your arrest, don't be poppin' by the polls saying "Here I am, and I have an I.D. to prove it!"
P.S. A recent Ad by the Dems pretty much says"I'm John Kerry, and I approve this message.." " The Republicans Don't care about Black People." and the Blacks are not happy about this... :mad:

[ClifRa JOnes]

That's moronic. Corporations benefit a great deal from black consumerism. Blacks spend a far greater percentage of their disposable income and they are highly sought after by a variety of industries.

Employers benefit greatly from having a large pool of working poor and particularly black working poor.

Republicans benefit from blacks being poor and undereducated:
* They are easier to dissuade from voting
* They can be used as resource for the corporate prison CEO friends and then afterwards they can be forbidden to vote
* They are easier to fool with all the fox news Ra-ra support the troops nonsense (I disagree with the person who said Bush will be lucky to get 5% of the black vote this year. I'm guessing this will be a record year for the Republicans in terms of raw numbers of black votes. No idea what percentage that will translate into since it may be a record turnout in black voter totals for both sides)

Anyway, at least your 4th point is true. White liberal, stealth racist Democrats do benefit from the maintenance of black poverty.

They may be easier to dissuade, but again, why would we do this? It doesn't gain us much at all.

Sure, black consumers are a very strong segment of the buying public, but a poor person isn't buyng a Lexus! Thier income is limited. Unfortunately the companies who benefit the most from poor black spending are tobacco companies, booze pushers, gambling institutions (the lottery) and the like. Why are the small businesses in the black community not owned by blacks? For a reputible corporation to say that it doesn't want a segment of the communitty to increase their buying power is tantimount to corporate suicide. You want to continuously expand your customer base, not limit it.

Corporations benifit from a large pool of working poor? how? Come down here to the SE US. There are thousands of people that will line up for the ditch digger job but you can't find a qualified bookkeeper when you need one. Very soon a machine will dig the ditch all by itself. And when a machine can pick the cabbage what are we going to do with the cabbage pickers? Under-educated employees are a pain in the &ss! They make errors, they have poor attendance, they suffer a larger percentage of worker compensation claims, they have a higher incidence of drug and alcohol user on the job. In most cases they are just not worth it. I work in a construction related industry and we hire a lot of lower educated people. They result in a higher percentage of administrative costs then the higher paid employees.

The prisons? your gonna bring that tired old leftist line up again? This is more of the same BS retoric. Young black men are in prison in record numbers because they commit CRIMES! Are there some in prison unjustly? Sure there are, but they are not the majority. If the left in this country was so concerned about the black male they would not support education policy that condemns them to a second class citizen status. (Outlawing phonics in school and replacing it with a system that teached functional illiteracy). They wouldn't constantly tell young black men that they have no future in America. Young black men for the most part see thier future in 3 directions. Sports, entertainment and crime. They are not told that they can succeed in business if they just get a good education and work hard and if they meet bigotry from some employer, go and work for his competitor and help put that bigot out of business.

Is your bigoted statement about fooling them directed at the black poor or the poor in general? I don't like the support the troops retoric either because it's a cop out. "I support the troops but not the war". BS. Think about what your saying. Poor (black) people are too stupid to make decision, too ignorent to take care of themselves. Incapable of making it in the capitalist system. This is the standard thinking of the leftist. That the proletariat has to be "taken care of" or they will be exploited. Exploited by whom? By the left, as we have seen throughout the sorded history of leftism around the world.

I am truly tired of being labeled "racist" because I am a conservative. Racist believe they are superior to others. If this isn't the philosophy of todays modern American left, then I'm Captain Kangaroo!

The problem of African American males in this country is something we as a society are going to have to deal with soon or we will have an even greater problem. We spent 400 years destroying them as the leaders of their communities and I don't see that changing. Not from the left or the right. Affirmative action should be targeted strongly at this group. Why does a rich white woman need government help with her business (which she is listed as owner only so her husband can get preferential treatment from the government) when poor black males are struggling and can't even support a family? Some of them don't even know what it means to be a leader of a family. That's not an insult it is what we have deliberatly done for so long.

Hopefully we can, through the new media, get these messages out to them. Or, as I have said, one day they will wake up and my fear is that this will turn very violent. I would not want to be a leftist liberal then.

[DroppinScience]

I am truly tired of being labeled "racist" because I am a conservative. Racist believe they are superior to others. If this isn't the philosophy of todays modern American left, then I'm Captain Kangaroo!

If us lefties feel "superior" to others, it's because we're more edumacated. ;)

I've never heard of left-wingers believing that their race is superior to others. I've only heard this from countless conservative segregationists (not saying you are one, but there's no denying the right wing has a racist segment).

[ClifRa JOnes]

If us lefties feel "superior" to others, it's because we're more edumacated. ;)


Are they? Is Dan Rather? Could've fooled me. I've met plenty of college educated morons in my day.


I've never heard of left-wingers believing that their race is superior to others. I've only heard this from countless conservative segregationists (not saying you are one, but there's no denying the right wing has a racist segment).

No I'm not. I'm a conservative who believes in targetted affirmative action and gay rights.

Seems to me that segregationists were all Democrats back then. I guess you could call them conservative, but not by my definition.

It's not just about race. Libs believe they are superior to anyone who doesn't agree with them. Because we don't agree with thier failed policies we are "stupid, ignorant, etc"

Who are the racists on the right? I know there are far right wing orgs who are nothing more than modern NAZIs but no one gives them any credit or listens seriously to them. Are some on the right bigots? Sure are. Is Trent Lott a racist? Nope, but he is a bigot. He let his personal history of bigotry come out. It's not hard to do. I grew up in a very bigoted family and neighborhood. Those ideas are very hard to keep out of your mind. I believe bigotry is a more prevelent problem than racism.

It's about public policy. What are the public policy positions on the right that are racist? Opposition to Affirmative Action? In it's present form it's a joke. It's not helping those who need it most, black males.

Answer me this. If white Libs are not racists why do they support policies that deprive blacks of the opportunities this country offers? Why in the 70's when they desegregated the schools and found out that black students were terribly unprepared for the curriculum in the white schools they didn't remedialize these students and give then a real change at improving thier lives. Thier answer was that the curriculum was racist and the tests were racist. HOGWASH! I was there I lived through it! The curriculum got progressivly easier every year. They took these unprepared children and made them unprepared adults.

Why has the left blocked all efforts to create economic empowerment zones in black communities?

Why do they block school vouchers that will help black students get out of failing public schools. Vouchers are highly supported in the black community.

Why is it that Bill Clinton did not have ANY black cabinet officers?

Why is it that Bush has the most diverse cabinet in US history?

Why is it that when the Democratic Party had a chance to put a black man into the head position of the DNC they turned him down for the crook Terry McAuliffe.

Why is it that when the yellow skinned people of Cambodia were being slaughtered the left did nothing, when the black skinned people of Uganda and Rwanda where being murdered the left did nothing, why is it the when the brown skinned people of Iraq were being brutalized for 30 years the left did nothing. BUT they were more than happy to bomb Kosovo to protect and save white Europeans.(Without UN approval)

These are questions I'd love answers to.

Just so everyone knows. I am not a rabid Bush supporter. I am a Reaganist. I supported McCain in the primaries. GW sometimes makes me want to throw things at the TV. (My wife had to restrain me or we wouldn't have one after the last debate) I loath his father who screwed the very people who put him in the White House. He abandoned the Reagan legacy and paid the price for it! He was a coward for not taking out Saddam when he had a lagitimate reason to do so.

[Ace42]

Why is it that when the yellow skinned people of Cambodia were being slaughtered the left did nothing, when the black skinned people of Uganda and Rwanda where being murdered the left did nothing, why is it the when the brown skinned people of Iraq were being brutalized for 30 years the left did nothing. BUT they were more than happy to bomb Kosovo to protect and save white Europeans.(Without UN approval)

These are questions I'd love answers to.

Shurely you mean "the democrats" - that is not synonymous with "the left" - lots of people protested all of the above. The fact that democrat politicians did nothing about it is shitty, but then, so is capitalism.

[sasquach]

its not true.

[DroppinScience]

Seems to me that segregationists were all Democrats back then. I guess you could call them conservative, but not by my definition.


They were conservatives in the South. When the Democrats turned more and more liberal, they got alienated, jumped ship and moved to the REPUBLICANS.

It doesn't matter what party you belong to, you can still be right-wing/left-wing/liberal/conservative. Ain't that simple.

[Funkaloyd]

The prisons? your gonna bring that tired old leftist line up again? This is more of the same BS retoric. Young black men are in prison in record numbers because they commit CRIMES!

I don't believe that GEA meant to say anything to the contrary. Crimes are mainly committed by those below the poverty line, and many Republican capitalists (and in turn Republican politicians) involved in the privatization of the prison system benefit greatly from a large incarcerated population.

[GreenEarthAl]

They may be easier to dissuade, but again, why would we do this? It doesn't gain us much at all.

Sure, black consumers are a very strong segment of the buying public, but a poor person isn't buyng a Lexus! Thier income is limited. Unfortunately the companies who benefit the most from poor black spending are tobacco companies, booze pushers, gambling institutions (the lottery) and the like. Why are the small businesses in the black community not owned by blacks? For a reputible corporation to say that it doesn't want a segment of the communitty to increase their buying power is tantimount to corporate suicide. You want to continuously expand your customer base, not limit it.

I believe that friends of hierarchies believe in hierarchies with only themselves at the top, a few friends below, and a whole shitload of people at the bottom. There are a million platitudes that we all tell ourselves to keep ourselves in place. From the elitist "We can't all be rich" to the theistic "It won't matter when we get to heaven."

You may personally believe that the power elite wants every black person to have a Lexus someday but I think that's highly naive.

Corporations benifit from a large pool of working poor? how? Come down here to the SE US. There are thousands of people that will line up for the ditch digger job but you can't find a qualified bookkeeper when you need one. Very soon a machine will dig the ditch all by itself. And when a machine can pick the cabbage what are we going to do with the cabbage pickers? Under-educated employees are a pain in the &ss! They make errors, they have poor attendance, they suffer a larger percentage of worker compensation claims, they have a higher incidence of drug and alcohol user on the job. In most cases they are just not worth it. I work in a construction related industry and we hire a lot of lower educated people. They result in a higher percentage of administrative costs then the higher paid employees.

The results of the thousands of underemployed ditch diggers is the wet dream of the oligarchy. Unions cease to be viable, the wage scale can be aggressively disitegrated, workers rights can be chipped away at. I agree with you that they are missing out on some damned fine accountants and managers, but in belt tightening times managers and even executives can be cast off for the cost savings benefits to the idle mega rich. I'm unconvinced that they're losing sleep over it.


The prisons? your gonna bring that tired old leftist line up again? This is more of the same BS retoric. Young black men are in prison in record numbers because they commit CRIMES! Are there some in prison unjustly? Sure there are, but they are not the majority. If the left in this country was so concerned about the black male they would not support education policy that condemns them to a second class citizen status. (Outlawing phonics in school and replacing it with a system that teached functional illiteracy). They wouldn't constantly tell young black men that they have no future in America. Young black men for the most part see thier future in 3 directions. Sports, entertainment and crime. They are not told that they can succeed in business if they just get a good education and work hard and if they meet bigotry from some employer, go and work for his competitor and help put that bigot out of business.

I am myself an relatively young black male. I don't disagree with most of what you have to say here. I think there are, however, many market segments where there is no "his competitor" and many where "his competitor" is equally bigoted. The business class, I have found, is no less bigoted than your "liberal left" that's got your panties all sucked up into your colon.


Is your bigoted statement about fooling them directed at the black poor or the poor in general? I don't like the support the troops retoric either because it's a cop out. "I support the troops but not the war". BS. Think about what your saying. Poor (black) people are too stupid to make decision, too ignorent to take care of themselves. Incapable of making it in the capitalist system. This is the standard thinking of the leftist. That the proletariat has to be "taken care of" or they will be exploited. Exploited by whom? By the left, as we have seen throughout the sorded history of leftism around the world.

Many poor people are kept ignorant enough that they don't begin to understand the gravity of the decisions they make or the powers that are levied against them. That is indeed my position.

I am truly tired of being labeled "racist" because I am a conservative. Racist believe they are superior to others. If this isn't the philosophy of todays modern American left, then I'm Captain Kangaroo!

I didn't label you an anything. I agree somewhat with your assessment of the white mild-left upper middle class consumerites. However, in working with them I've found that at least they CARE. You, also, seem to care, but it may not surprise you that I've found that many of your conservative compatriots aren't in agreement with you that anything needs to be done about it.

The problem of African American males in this country is something we as a society are going to have to deal with soon or we will have an even greater problem. We spent 400 years destroying them as the leaders of their communities and I don't see that changing. Not from the left or the right. Affirmative action should be targeted strongly at this group. Why does a rich white woman need government help with her business (which she is listed as owner only so her husband can get preferential treatment from the government) when poor black males are struggling and can't even support a family? Some of them don't even know what it means to be a leader of a family. That's not an insult it is what we have deliberatly done for so long.

Hopefully we can, through the new media, get these messages out to them. Or, as I have said, one day they will wake up and my fear is that this will turn very violent. I would not want to be a leftist liberal then.

Thanks for sharing. Seems we have enough common views that we can have a pretty productive conversation. Thanks for your contribution. Time to take my black ass to work for a buck or so above minimum wage. Have a nice day.

[endofmystump]

Prison population...Lord knows we all need our license plates. Keepin' it real and jailin' in da' you no wears....

[ClifRa JOnes]

[i]
I don't believe that GEA meant to say anything to the contrary. Crimes are mainly committed by those below the poverty line, and many Republican capitalists (and in turn Republican politicians) involved in the privatization of the prison system benefit greatly from a large incarcerated population.

The stat's don't back this up. By those standards we should have had a massive nationwide crime wave during the Great Depression, but we didn't. Poverty does not breed crime. Some may resort to steeling bread if they are hungry but they will not resort to murder. The root cause of crime is CRIMINALS, just like the root cause of terrorism is TERRORISTS. There are a lot of middle class white Americans that resort to crime. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were upper middle class Arabs.

As far as capitalism is concerned. All the leftist governments that popped up during the last century did nothing to eleviate the suffering of the poeple in those dirt poor countries. The expansion of free market economies around the world in the latter part of last century has actually increased the standard of living in the countries that have embrased it.

[ClifRa JOnes]

To GEA:

Yeah, I think we have some common views.

And yeah, the lefties do get my panties in a twit some times. And yeah, some of the cons. out there ain't got a clue when it comes to the real issues facing African Am. communities out there. Those of us that do will keep trying to "edumacate" them. There is a difference between those who look at a problem and fail to see it or fail to address it because of ignorance. it is another thing altogether when there are those who, through thier policy, actively pertepuate this problem for thier own political gain.

As far as corps loosing sleep, no doubt they don't. I will tell you that I have working for good companies that all the way up to the CEO that do worry about laying off employees. I also agree that not all of them are like this. I have found that when the Owner or CEO of a company is the guy who started the company they have a more personal relationship with thier employees and do care more. We all know, there are scum in all walks of life.

In reference to the bigot in the workplace, true there may be places where all the employeers in a professon in a location are bigotted scum. How do we fix this? Don't know, it's a tough one. We can't really make bigotry illegal. The existing race law can sometimes seem inadaquite because the problem can be so subtle. There are some things that can be done. Move to a better environment, as I did 12 years ago. This can be harder than it sounds though. How about making capital (ohh, bad word) available so that Afr. Am.s can start you own businesses?

Well, these are all tough issues that require common sense solutions. Good luck on that ever happening left or right.

Back to the topic. I still say there is not one good motivating factor for Republicans to risk breaking the law to suppress the black vote. If there is all this evidence of it happening why hasn't anyone files charges against those involved? Your telling me that the Democrates have this evidence of a crime being committed and they are not persuing it? Have not persued it since 2000? Unlikely as far as I'm concerned.

[ClifRa JOnes]

They were conservatives in the South. When the Democrats turned more and more liberal, they got alienated, jumped ship and moved to the REPUBLICANS.

It doesn't matter what party you belong to, you can still be right-wing/left-wing/liberal/conservative. Ain't that simple.

Yes they did. Much as I wish it wasn't so it is. But they have not been able to effect policy that much. Most of them are dead and gone today. As far as the party is concened it wasn't a matter of Republicans saying "we don't want blacks in our party" it was more of, "Your not going to vote for us and your 10-12% of the population, You can't make a difference so we are not going to waste the effort changing your minds." Probably not a good policy decision then.

[DroppinScience]

Poverty does not breed crime. Some may resort to steeling bread if they are hungry but they will not resort to murder. The root cause of crime is CRIMINALS, just like the root cause of terrorism is TERRORISTS. There are a lot of middle class white Americans that resort to crime. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were upper middle class Arabs.

First off, let me say it's REFRESHING to have an intelligent conservative on this boad. Sure beats the hell outta gmsisko et al.

I do have to disagree here, poverty plays a hella large role in crimes. Take a look at those who populate the prisons. The vast majority of these people wouldn't exactly be from a high economic standing. Many of them are the marginalized.

So does that mean ALL poor people commit crimes? Absolutely NOT. And yes, there are certainly those from higher up on the economic ladder who do crime. But I think it's pretty safe to say that poor people who commit crime and rich (or just more well-off) people who commit crimes would be committing different crimes (that's why we talk of "blue-collar crime" and "white-collar crime"). The poor guy is very likely to go and steal your purse/wallet or will be selling drugs or anything like that.

Richer people are more like your Enron types or even just employees working at large corporations (or small businesses too) who make off with large sums of money because they just lost a lot of money while gambling at the casino (this happened in my Dad's dental office).

Poverty obviously is not the sole contribution for why people commit crimes. Nothing is clear cut.

But walk into poor inner-city neighborhoods and walk into well-off suburbs.

In the inner-cities, you're quite likely to encounter a fair amount of people who have lots of crime problems and people in there who are trying to stay away from troubles with the law. They're poor and there's very little alternate options that present themselves.

Walk into the nice rich white picket-fences neighborhoods. Would it be common to hear the police siren going off everytime? Would you be seeing a lot of graffiti-ed vandalism, will you see drug pushers? I think it's a safe bet that all of these factors would be considerably less (if not non-existent). Why? They can feed and clothe and shelter themselves so there's little incentive to break the law. Coming from one of these rich 'hoods, I'd say any kind of crime would be done mostly by bored teens driving really fast in quiet streets and some noise, but nothing on the level with poor neighborhoods.

Can you see how there can be a correlation between poverty and crime? Is poverty the only factor when it comes to crimes. Nope. But to dismiss poverty as having no effect on who gets arrested the most, I'd say is quite erroneous.

[SobaViolence]

also, poor people just a)get caught or b)can't afford good legal services.


the affluent can get great lawyers IF they get caught.

plus, the police don't really give 2 shits about the rich/affluent. they know where the problems are...in the ghettooooooooo

guns don't kill people, dangerous ethnic minorities do.

[Funkaloyd]

Your telling me that the Democrates have this evidence of a crime being committed and they are not persuing it? Have not persued it since 2000?

There is evidence to suggest that Democrats have to some extent been doing it also. But regardless, Dems are complete dumbasses and pussies, incapable of mounting an effective attack.

[Grasshopper]

from the history of how the federal government have treated Blacks, I can understand why many of them don't feel like their vote matters. :eek:

Nixon and the Black Panthers. That fucked some shit up for many blacks.

[Funkaloyd]

The root cause of crime is CRIMINALS, just like the root cause of terrorism is TERRORISTS

Regarding the root cause of terrorism: We can agree that there is no terrorism gene, and that terrorism overwhelmingly comes from a small area if the world, right? Why is this; surely it can't be coincidence. Then there must be another reason for terrorism, whether it's related to religion, injustice, political and social culture, or any combination of the above. I think that to deny this is very dangerous.

[ClifRa JOnes]

The root cause of crime is CRIMINALS, just like the root cause of terrorism is TERRORISTS

Regarding the root cause of terrorism: We can agree that there is no terrorism gene, and that terrorism overwhelmingly comes from a small area if the world, right? Why is this; surely it can't be coincidence. Then there must be another reason for terrorism, whether it's related to religion, injustice, political and social culture, or any combination of the above. I think that to deny this is very dangerous.

Small area of the world? See, this is the fundamental misunderstanding about terrorism that the left has. Terrorism=Al Qaeda, terrorism=Islamist radicals. Sorry but you are so wrong.

Terrorists in:
Northern Ireland
Northern Spain
Columbia
Philippines
Malasia
USA (Tim McVay)
Japan (Sarin gas attack)

The war on terrorism is a WORLD WAR! Get it? We need to treat this problem like the British, Spanish and Americans treated Piracy on the high seas. Take away thier sanctuaries and support. When this was done 200 years ago pirates had no port to stop in and many of them starved at sea. This is what we need to do now, deny them refuge and the people who give them refuge must be made painfully aware that they are putting thier lives in danger.

Also, reasons for terrorism? There are none. These people just want to kill! Just like the Nazis wanted to kill. Jews, Gypsies ans Slavs were just convenient people to kill. You can't justify what they do for any reason. Did the French resistance blow up schools in Germany? No.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Your telling me that the Democrates have this evidence of a crime being committed and they are not persuing it? Have not persued it since 2000?

There is evidence to suggest that Democrats have to some extent been doing it also. But regardless, Dems are complete dumbasses and pussies, incapable of mounting an effective attack.

Actually there is quite a bit of evidence that the Democratic party has been up to thier necks in voter fraud for years. Not so much suppression but out right fraud. The election of 1960 is a prime example.

[ClifRa JOnes]

also, poor people just a)get caught or b)can't afford good legal services.


the affluent can get great lawyers IF they get caught.

plus, the police don't really give 2 shits about the rich/affluent. they know where the problems are...in the ghettooooooooo

guns don't kill people, dangerous ethnic minorities do.

Quite correct! What the police and local governments don't give 2 shits about are poor communities. You tell me that if crack dealers were operating in an upper middle class predominatly white neighborhood that the police wouldn't be there ASAP? Yet this is allowed to continue in poor black neighborhoods all the time.

[ClifRa JOnes]

First off, let me say it's REFRESHING to have an intelligent conservative on this boad. Sure beats the hell outta gmsisko et al.

I do have to disagree here, poverty plays a hella large role in crimes. Take a look at those who populate the prisons. The vast majority of these people wouldn't exactly be from a high economic standing. Many of them are the marginalized. et all.


Marginalized is right, but how and why? In this country education is free and an education is the best way to fight poverty. Problem is this is not what the children in poor communities are getting. It's not the fact that they are poor it the fact that thier value system leads them to believe that thier crimes are justified. We re-enforce this value system in our tax code. If it's all right for the government to confiscate the property of "rich people" to give to "poor people" then why is it so wrong for them to do the same? The big problem with most criminals is they believe they are entitled to what they steel and have many reasons to justify it. "I'm taking what is rightfully mine".

Also the completely stupid drug laws in this country only contribute to crime. We've learned nothing from prohibition. I certainly am not crazy about the idea of legalized recreational drugs but the current policy just ain't working! Most people in jail, and a majority of Afr. Am.s in jail are there because of drug crimes.

(we are way off topic here)

[Schmeltz]

You can't seriously believe that the Nazis "just wanted to kill" and that Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs simply presented themselves as the most opportune target. There is no historical evidence for this point of view. None. The Nazis targeted those people for a variety of reasons: because they allegedly represented a threat to European racial purity ("proven" through a variety of "scientific" theories); because they supposedly represented conspiratorial ideologies against which the German people had to defend themselves (World Jewry and World Bolshevism were often linked by Hitler); because there was supposedly economic benefits to their dispossession (confiscation of the property of wealthy Jews, giving the jobs of Jews to "racially pure" Germans, conquering the territory and resources - lebensraum - of the "subhuman" Slavs).

Of course we reject such disgusting ideas out of hand today, but this used to be what people genuinely believed. History is a lot more complex than "People just wanted to kill for no reason." Terrorism is the same.

[Ace42]

In this country education is free

Which country is that then? In the UK and the US, any sort of further (collegial) education requires private funding, whether in terms of a scholarship (few and far between) from some sort of student loan, or from the silver-spoon. Today more than ever, further education is required for all sorts of jobs and the qualifications are becoming less and less valued.

In the UK, the government is looking at 50% of the (academic aged) population (paying to be) studying at university level. Not only does that straddle the individual with a massive debt, not only does it devalue to qualification (how valuable can it be if every other person has one?) but it also creates an unfair two-tear workforce.

The US has a diabolically unfit education system, with many nations starting to follow suit. As Mikey Moore points out, US citizens are some of the dumbest and most poorly informed in the "educated" world.

[Funkaloyd]

Small area of the world? See, this is the fundamental misunderstanding about terrorism that the left has. Terrorism=Al Qaeda, terrorism=Islamist radicals. Sorry but you are so wrong...

I didn't say that al Qaeda is the only terrorist network, or anything of the sort. But Islamic states are seriously overrepresented when it comes to terrorism, no? As are dictatorships, and poverty stricken states. Doesn't this show that the fight against terrorism can be taken farther than simply getting rid of terrorists as they appear; that there are possibly ways to prevent support for terrorism in the first place?

[drobertson420]

How about Kerry trying to play the "Race Card" against Bush last night...
Should've gotten his facts straight before using that angle :D

[ClifRa JOnes]

You can't seriously believe that the Nazis "just wanted to kill" and that Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs simply presented themselves as the most opportune target. There is no historical evidence for this point of view. None. The Nazis targeted those people for a variety of reasons: because they allegedly represented a threat to European racial purity ("proven" through a variety of "scientific" theories); because they supposedly represented conspiratorial ideologies against which the German people had to defend themselves (World Jewry and World Bolshevism were often linked by Hitler); because there was supposedly economic benefits to their dispossession (confiscation of the property of wealthy Jews, giving the jobs of Jews to "racially pure" Germans, conquering the territory and resources - lebensraum - of the "subhuman" Slavs).

Of course we reject such disgusting ideas out of hand today, but this used to be what people genuinely believed. History is a lot more complex than "People just wanted to kill for no reason." Terrorism is the same.

Good points, but there goals could have been achieved by other means than murder. The Jews could have been deported. They didn't even consider these options. They did want to kill, many of them wanted to kill and they found justification for those desires. Just read some of Himlers writings, the man was a homicidal maniac.

[Schmeltz]

The Jews could have been deported where? Sad fact is that most of the world closed its doors to German Jews, the West included. In actual fact mass deportation was considered - Hitler was all for the repatriation of the Jews - but it couldn't be worked out with the rest of the planet.

Sure most of the Nazi party were nutjobs, but their desire to exterminate others did not proceed from random homocidal impulses. They wanted to kill for a set of reasons, the validity of which is what is really in doubt.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Which country is that then? In the UK and the US, any sort of further (collegial) education requires private funding, whether in terms of a scholarship (few and far between) from some sort of student loan, or from the silver-spoon. Today more than ever, further education is required for all sorts of jobs and the qualifications are becoming less and less valued.

In the UK, the government is looking at 50% of the (academic aged) population (paying to be) studying at university level. Not only does that straddle the individual with a massive debt, not only does it devalue to qualification (how valuable can it be if every other person has one?) but it also creates an unfair two-tear workforce.

The US has a diabolically unfit education system, with many nations starting to follow suit. As Mikey Moore points out, US citizens are some of the dumbest and most poorly informed in the "educated" world.

Can't argue with that last statement. As far as education, we do not educate our children well at all. Why is it that all our efforts are targeted towards college? A college degree is a good thing but it is not required to be successful in America. We could arm our High School grads with marketable skills but don't, we could arm them with a clear understanding of the English language but we don't, colleges are more and more having to expend resources on remedializing High School grads than furthering thier education. If I were in charge of a High School technology course I would graduate young people who are highly employable. I know many people in my profession that do not have college degrees yet make a good living, well over $50k/year. Most of them did this on thier own. A qualified auto mechanic can earn upwards of $60k/year now but we have abandoned these programs in our schools. Children can learn, we could graduate young people from High School with the equivilant of an Associates Degree or better but we don't because Higher Education in the US is BIG BUSINESS! They want to increase thier customer base not decrease it.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Small area of the world? See, this is the fundamental misunderstanding about terrorism that the left has. Terrorism=Al Qaeda, terrorism=Islamist radicals. Sorry but you are so wrong...

I didn't say that al Qaeda is the only terrorist network, or anything of the sort. But Islamic states are seriously overrepresented when it comes to terrorism, no? As are dictatorships, and poverty stricken states. Doesn't this show that the fight against terrorism can be taken farther than simply getting rid of terrorists as they appear; that there are possibly ways to prevent support for terrorism in the first place?

Yes, and I believe that is what we are doing.

I disagree with the poverty stricken states theory. Most of the terrorists come from very rich countries. True the wealth is not making it to the average dirt poor Arab but look at the prominent terrorists, bin Laden - rich guy, Al Zawariri - wealthy doctor, majority of the 9/11 terrorists - upper middle class Arabs. The poverty theory doesn't hold water.

The dirt poor Arabs are not the terrorists, they may be the suicide bomber but that's so they can earn cash for thier families or they are being brain washed into it.

(we digress again)

[ClifRa JOnes]

OK, all these have been very interesting debates in this thread but no one has addressed my points on the topic of this thread. Which is:

Why would Republicans engage in the illegal suppression of the black vote when it does not gain them any electoral advantage?

The only ones I see gaining enything out of this are the Democrates because they can play the race card.

[ClifRa JOnes]

The Jews could have been deported where? Sad fact is that most of the world closed its doors to German Jews, the West included. In actual fact mass deportation was considered - Hitler was all for the repatriation of the Jews - but it couldn't be worked out with the rest of the planet.

Sure most of the Nazi party were nutjobs, but their desire to exterminate others did not proceed from random homocidal impulses. They wanted to kill for a set of reasons, the validity of which is what is really in doubt.

I doubt weather he tried very hard once the world shut it's doors. They wanted to kill (for a set of reasons) but the reasons are just the justifications. Hitler called the war on the USSR a war of annialation, not a war of idealogy or conquest.

Another little known fact was that a lot of these guys were cranked up on speed most of the time and we now what that can do to your sanity. Hitler was taking up to 3 injections of methamphetimine / day.

[Ace42]

I disagree with the poverty stricken states theory. Most of the terrorists come from very rich countries.


The people you have cited are the leaders, not the perpetrators. It is like saying "poverty can't be to blaim because the Mafia are all rich crooks!"

"The US military can't be comprised mainly of poor people forced by capitalism into military servitude: Bush is rich FFS! And he was in the national guard!"

- doesn't wash, see.

[DroppinScience]

OK, all these have been very interesting debates in this thread but no one has addressed my points on the topic of this thread. Which is:

Why would Republicans engage in the illegal suppression of the black vote when it does not gain them any electoral advantage?

The only ones I see gaining enything out of this are the Democrates because they can play the race card.

Republicans would engage in suppressing the black vote because the majority of blacks vote Democrat. Republicans want to stay in power, they don't want to lose it.

[DroppinScience]

Yes, and I believe that is what we are doing.

I disagree with the poverty stricken states theory. Most of the terrorists come from very rich countries. True the wealth is not making it to the average dirt poor Arab but look at the prominent terrorists, bin Laden - rich guy, Al Zawariri - wealthy doctor, majority of the 9/11 terrorists - upper middle class Arabs. The poverty theory doesn't hold water.

The dirt poor Arabs are not the terrorists, they may be the suicide bomber but that's so they can earn cash for thier families or they are being brain washed into it.

(we digress again)

Wha...? :confused:

So Bin Laden has got a lot of cash, BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SURE DON'T HAVE IT. If the average John Q. Mohammed in the Middle East were all well-off, they wouldn't exactly have support for their actions. Fewer people would be willing to strap some dynamite to their chest if they actually had reasons to live.

How do you think they get recruits for their terrorist cell training? The bulk of their followers aren't exactly from the Middle Eastern equivalent of the suburbs.

The reason there are so many suicide bombers in Israel is because the Palestinians have been stuck in poverty for over 30 years. That makes religious fanatacism attractive and killing yourself so that your family gets taken care of like a sound plan. If these guys could properly feed and clothe their family, they wouldn't be doing it.

Do the Israelis strap bombs to themselves? Nope. They don't live in squalor and besides, those interested in fighting Palestinians have got tanks and guns by their side. No need in putting your own life in danger.

You seem like a smart guy, but you're missing these facts.

[Schmeltz]

Gwynne Dyer spoke at my university a little while ago, and he too downplayed the poverty factor as a root cause of terrorism. He pointed instead to the stagnation of Middle Eastern societies as a result of their control by corrupt despots produced by various Western interventions over the years - among other things. One thing to which he did not point was an insatiable desire to just kill, kill, kill.

Same with the Nazis. In my Second World War history class today we had a very interesting discussion about the behaviour of German soldiers on the Eastern front and what moved these men - from relatively affluent backgrounds, with good educations and family lives for the most part - to commit horrible atrocities. There are various factors involved (Omer Bartov's Hitler's Army is a fantastic read, if a little depressing at times) but none of them related to an innate desire to simply take human lives. The reasons aren't the justifications, they're... well... the reasons.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Wha...? :confused:

So Bin Laden has got a lot of cash, BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SURE DON'T HAVE IT. If the average John Q. Mohammed in the Middle East were all well-off, they wouldn't exactly have support for their actions. Fewer people would be willing to strap some dynamite to their chest if they actually had reasons to live.

Fact is a lot of them are. Yasser Hamdi, reciently repatriated to Saudi Arabia (after having his US citizenship revoked) comes from a well off Saudi family. How do you think these guys got the cash to travel to Afghanistan? A lot of these guys are not dirt poor Arabs because the dirt poor Arabs are to busy tring to just stay alive. As far as the bombers, I suppose a 16 year old who's been indoctrinated in to the culture of hate really looks at his economic reasons for blowing himself up. Why aren't the 35 year old upper middle class terrorists strapping on the bombs.


How do you think they get recruits for their terrorist cell training? The bulk of their followers aren't exactly from the Middle Eastern equivalent of the suburbs.

Fact is they are. Surely they are bringing along some of thier poor buds as cannon fodder but the movers and shakers are from well off families.


The reason there are so many suicide bombers in Israel is because the Palestinians have been stuck in poverty for over 30 years. That makes religious fanatacism attractive and killing yourself so that your family gets taken care of like a sound plan. If these guys could properly feed and clothe their family, they wouldn't be doing it.

Do the Israelis strap bombs to themselves? Nope. They don't live in squalor and besides, those interested in fighting Palestinians have got tanks and guns by their side. No need in putting your own life in danger.


Agreed but why is that? With so many Arab nations so well off with Oil money why are they still living in refugee camps? Because that's where they want them! So they can use them to rally the people to this cause and blame Isreal and the west for the rotten conditions they live under.

The Irealis are just defending themselves and being a lot more restrained than I would be. I'd have killed Arafat long ago. I'm not a big Isreal supporter. I think the '48 decision was one more stab in the back to the Arabs. The Europeans have screwed the Arabs many times throughout history. I could elaborate on this but that should be another thread.


You seem like a smart guy, but you're missing these facts.

Not missing a thing. I am a smart guy and I understand Arab society. I've been over there and I've read a lot about it. I don't mean to be offensive here but the truth is thier culture is FUCKED UP! Thier society is run like the Mafia. From the village to the capital it's all about power and tribute. While this type of rule made sense in the desert it doesn't work in the modern world. But again, that would be another thread.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Republicans would engage in suppressing the black vote because the majority of blacks vote Democrat. Republicans want to stay in power, they don't want to lose it.

Have you not read any of my posts on this subject? Blacks are 12% of the population they just don't make a difference. Never have. Over 90% for Gore, he still lost! (don't give me the popular vote thing because until we change the law that's not how it works) I don't mean to sound offensive to any Afr. Am.s out there but it's just the facts. The black vote has not been a major factor in any national election. If the Latino population keeps growing they are going to be an even smaller factor.

Another fact: Take away all the black vote in '92 and '96 and guess what? Clinton still wins!

I'll say it again, in the 3rd congressional district of Florida you could suppress 50% of the black vote and a Liberal black Democrat will still win! How do you think Corine (the embarassment to all Afr. Am.'s) Brown get re-elected every 2 years.

Many local districts around the country are drawn the same way. I'm not saying this is bad as it does give blacks more representation and that's a good thing but with this situation suppressing the black vote offers far more risk than it's worth.

Can you imagine if they actually got caught with real proof of them doing this? It's a crime! People would go to jail and I'd be right there saying "throw away the key!"

Another fact: In my home county of Duval FL. the Dems screamed suppression after 2000 because this is a heavily Republican County. (Not a single Democrat won in our last local election) They investigated, and investigated and investigated some more. Know what? Nothing, nada, zip zero, not a single shread of conclusive proof that anything was going on. Yet, we still have to put up with the leftist media throwing words like facists at us. I will say that Nightline did an investigation here and vindicated us. This is a good and decient community here with good race relations for the most part. Hell we even had a black sheriff for a while.

This nonsense only serves the Racist White Leftist devide and conquor stratagy.

Conspiracy theories are fun but without any proof that's all they are, theories.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Gwynne Dyer spoke at my university a little while ago, and he too downplayed the poverty factor as a root cause of terrorism. He pointed instead to the stagnation of Middle Eastern societies as a result of their control by corrupt despots produced by various Western interventions over the years - among other things. One thing to which he did not point was an insatiable desire to just kill, kill, kill.

Same with the Nazis. In my Second World War history class today we had a very interesting discussion about the behaviour of German soldiers on the Eastern front and what moved these men - from relatively affluent backgrounds, with good educations and family lives for the most part - to commit horrible atrocities. There are various factors involved (Omer Bartov's Hitler's Army is a fantastic read, if a little depressing at times) but none of them related to an innate desire to simply take human lives. The reasons aren't the justifications, they're... well... the reasons.

I will read the book. I love this part of history.