GI's watching "Farenheit 911"

[D_Raay]

http://www.rense.com/general57/waslies.htm
Inside dusty, barricaded camps around Iraq, groups of American troops in between missions are gathering around screens to view an unlikely choice from the US box office: "Fahrenheit 9-11," Michael Moore's controversial documentary attacking the commander-in-chief.

"Everyone's watching it," says a Marine corporal at an outpost in Ramadi that is mortared by insurgents daily. "It's shaping a lot of people's image of Bush."

The film's prevalence is one sign of a discernible countercurrent among US troops in Iraq - those who blame President Bush for entangling them in what they see as a misguided war. Conventional wisdom holds that the troops are staunchly pro-Bush, and many are. But bitterness over long, dangerous deployments is producing, at a minimum, pockets of support for Democratic candidate Sen. John Kerry, in part because he's seen as likely to withdraw American forces from Iraq more quickly.

"[For] 9 out of 10 of the people I talk to, it wouldn't matter who ran against Bush - they'd vote for them," said a US soldier in the southern city of Najaf, seeking out a reporter to make his views known. "People are so fed up with Iraq, and fed up with Bush."
"Nobody I know wants Bush," says an enlisted soldier in Najaf, adding, "This whole war was based on lies." Like several others interviewed, his animosity centered on a belief that the war lacked a clear purpose even as it took a tremendous toll on US troops, many of whom are in Iraq involuntarily under "stop loss" orders that keep them in the service for months beyond their scheduled exit in order to keep units together during deployments.

"There's no clear definition of why we came here," says Army Spc. Nathan Swink, of Quincy, Ill. "First they said they have WMD and nuclear weapons, then it was to get Saddam Hussein out of office, and then to rebuild Iraq. I want to fight for my nation and for my family, to protect the United States against enemies foreign and domestic, not to protect Iraqi civilians or deal with Sadr's militia," he said.
Other US troops expressed feelings of guilt over killing Iraqis in a war they believe is unjust.

"We shouldn't be here," said one Marine infantryman bluntly. "There was no reason for invading this country in the first place. We just came here and [angered people] and killed a lot of innocent people," said the marine, who has seen regular combat in Ramadi. "I don't enjoy killing women and children, it's not my thing."

As with his comrades, the marine accepted some of the most controversial claims of "Fahrenheit 9/11," which critics have called biased. "Bush didn't want to attack [Osama] Bin Laden because he was doing business with Bin Laden's family," he said.

Another marine, Sgt. Christopher Wallace of Pataskala, Ohio, agreed that the film was making an impression on troops. "Marines nowadays want to know stuff. They want to be informed, because we'll be voting out here soon," he said. " 'Fahrenheit 9/11' opened our eyes to things we hadn't seen before." But, he added after a pause, "We still have full faith and confidence in our commander-in-chief. And if John Kerry is elected, he will be our commander in chief."

[Echewta]

You can find plenty of soldiers who think that the current path is fine.

But, the more information you give to people, the better choice they can make.

[edb1821]

You can find plenty of soldiers who think that the current path is fine.

But, the more information you give to people, the better choice they can make.


It's too bad they're giving them false information by showing that piece of shit movie.

[Ace42]

Of course, spreading false shit, like saying that no president has gone to war without having the vote of congress behind them, is perfectly fine?

Hypocrite.

[saz]

It's too bad they're giving them false information by showing that piece of shit movie.

retard (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=22958)

[Destroyer]

It's too bad they're giving them false information by showing that piece of shit movie.

Does Bush have you brainwashed? Idiot.

[Echewta]

Do you realize where they are watching that piece of shit movie?

And whats the reason?

[saz]

retard (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=22958)

[saz]

Whoa, pretty heavy rebutal there retard....posting a review from modamag.com, by some very biased and right-wing critic who just gives us his opinion and nothing more.

[D_Raay]

Okay smart guy refute what he said. If you want I can refute many more lies in Moores movie. Do you actually believe Moore's movie? If you do, you are an idiot!
Hey Sisko, I am not going to call you an idiot or retard or anything for that matter. You simply don't understand the movie. Have you seen it? Or is your only reference to it what someone else's opinion of it is? Michael Moore is first and foremost a film maker. There are no false facts in this film. The only thing they can pick at is the tone and mood in which he represents those facts. Not truly a documentary I suppose and that's why there are people on the left who don't like him either.
Another marine, Sgt. Christopher Wallace of Pataskala, Ohio, agreed that the film was making an impression on troops. "Marines nowadays want to know stuff. They want to be informed, because we'll be voting out here soon," he said. " 'Fahrenheit 9/11' opened our eyes to things we hadn't seen before." But, he added after a pause, "We still have full faith and confidence in our commander-in-chief. And if John Kerry is elected, he will be our commander in chief."
This^ is from a REAL American soldier fighting for his life and in our name in Iraq. Are you going to be so bold as to question him?

[saz]

the
biggest of which being that in the wealth of the Saudi royal family and in
purported old bin Ladin family ties with the Bush family lies the
explanation about many of the mysteries surrounding 9/11.

yep...

The Bushes, the bin Ladens and the Saudis

Link (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/saudi.html)

some more good reading for you, retard (http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=480)

It begins in the 1970's in Houston, Texas, when George W. Bush was just starting out in his family's two businesses of politics and oil. The powerful - and very rich - Bin Laden family helped fund his first venture into oil.

The cozy friendship continued for decades. After a terrorist attack at a barracks in Saudi Arabia which killed 19 Americans, the bin Laden family received a multi-billion dollar contract to re-build. And incredibly, George Bush Sr. was in a business meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington on the morning of September 11th with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers.

1968
George W. Bush joins the Texas Air National Guard, a coveted position that ensures he doesn’t have to serve in Vietnam. While a member of the Guard, Bush meets and befriends Jim Bath, a former Air Force pilot and budding entrepreneur.

1976
George H. W. Bush becomes director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). During his tenure, Bush helps provide training for the Saudi royal family’s palace guard, cementing a relationship that proves critical to the Bush family’s fortunes. Bush also privatizes various CIA assets, with Bath considered one of the beneficiaries because of his involvement in the aircraft business. Bath will later tell a business associate he works for the CIA and was recruited by Bush Sr.

Salem Bin Laden, older brother to future al Qaeda leader Osama, enters into a trust agreement with Jim Bath, whereby Bath will act as the bin Laden family’s representative in North America, investing money in various business ventures. Bath also becomes the business representative of Khalid bin Mahfouz, a member of Saudi Arabia’s most powerful banking family and owners of the National Commercial Bank, the principal bank of the Saudi royal family.

1978
Charles W. “Bill” White, a former Annapolis graduate and US Navy pilot, graduates from Harvard’s business school. He is then introduced to Jim Bath who is looking for someone to manage his real estate company. Bath hires White as his partner. Money from the bin Laden and bin Mahfouz families is invested in Bath’s real estate company. Among other things, Bath buys the Saudis an airport, office and apartment buildings, and invests in Texas banks. Eventually, Salem Bin Laden and Khalid bin Mahfouz buy an enormous mansion in River Oaks, Houston’s most affluent neighborhood. Read an interview with Bill White

George W. Bush starts up an oil company in Texas called Arbusto 78. Bath will invest money from Salem bin Laden and Khalid bin Mahfouz in this new company. Bill White is told by Bath that more than $1-million of the Saudis’ money was pumped into Bush’s venture.

1979
The Carter administration, through the CIA, begins to fund the fledgling mujahadeen in Afghanistan – six months before the Soviet invasion – in the hopes of drawing the USSR into its own Vietnam.

1980
George H.W. Bush runs for the presidential nomination of the Republican Party, but loses to Ronald Reagan. He becomes Reagan’s running mate and eventual vice-president.

1981
Osama bin Laden, son of the founder of the Bin Laden Group, the largest construction company in Saudi Arabia, travels to Afghanistan to help the mujahadeen in their bloody war against the Soviet Union.

1986
Bill White and Jim Bath have a falling out. Bath then launches 28 frivolous lawsuits against White, leading to White’s financial ruin and expulsion from Houston’s business community. White fights the lawsuits, refusing to take a huge pay off to keep silent about his knowledge of Bath’s relationship to the Saudis and Bush family. Read an interview with Bill White

1987
Harken Energy, a company that George W. Bush’s failed oil companies have been folded into, receives $25-million stock offering underwritten by significant players connected to the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), a Middle Eastern banking concern. Bush is key to Harken obtaining the money.

1989
The Soviets pull out of Afghanistan after the CIA spends (US) $3-billion on the largest covert operation in its history. Osama bin Laden returns to Saudi Arabia, angry with how the Americans abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviet retreat.

1988-92
The BCCI scandal breaks. The bank is exposed for being a massive criminal enterprise, catering to some of the most notorious villains of the 20th century, including Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, terrorist leaders Abu Nidal, and the Medellin drug cartel and for being involved in money laundering, the Iran contra scandal, and pilfering investors’ cash. At the time of its collapse, Khalid Bin Mahfouz (see above) was COO of BCCI, and is eventually fined $225-million to settle felony charges for stealing investors’ money.

1991
The first Gulf War occurs, whereby George H. W. Bush is determined to push Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait to ensure the Iraqi dictator doesn’t have a stranglehold on world oil markets. Osama bin Laden urges the Saudi royal family to find an Arab solution, by raising an army on their own to fight Hussein. When the royal family invites the U.S. in to do the job instead, Bin Laden becomes disenchanted with the House of al-Saud. His anger grows when after the war the US leaves 20,000 troops behind in Saudi Arabia. Soon Bin Laden makes a deal with the Saudi royal family: he is allowed to leave the kingdom with his fortune, and will receive funding for al Qaeda from various Saudi charities and banks, but in return he must not launch attacks against the royal family. Bin Laden settles in the Sudan, aiming his ire at the US.

1992
George H. W. Bush loses to Bill Clinton. Eventually the former president becomes an adviser to the Carlyle Group, a powerful Washington-based private investment firm with interests in the defense industry. Among his duties, Bush helps strengthen Carlyle’s ties to the Saudi royal family. He will later visit Saudi Arabia and the bin Laden family compound. The bin Ladens eventually invest in the Carlyle Group. Carlyle buys a company called Vinnell Corp., which provides training to the Saudi palace guard. George W. Bush briefly sits on the board of directors of one of Carlyle’s subsidiaries.

1993
The first attack on the World Trade Centre, which is connected to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, occurs.

1994
George W. Bush becomes governor of Texas.

1995
Five American soldiers are killed in a car bomb in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis quickly execute the suspects they arrest, ignoring wishes from the FBI to interrogate them beforehand.

The Taliban come to power in Afghanistan with the backing of Pakistan’s notorious intelligence agency, the ISI.

1996
Osama bin Laden is forced to move from the Sudan to Afghanistan under pressure from the Clinton administration. Neither the US nor the Saudis make an effort to arrest him – despite the opportunity offered up to them by the Sudanese government.

June
A truck bomb blows up the al-Khobar barracks, housing US air force personnel in Saudi Arabia, killing 19 soldiers. A group called Saudi Hezbollah claims responsibility. Eventually, the Clinton administration drops the investigation because it does not want to upset relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran – the country that funds Hezbollah.

Summer
A meeting of prominent Saudis occurs in a Paris hotel. Among the attendees is the head of Saudi intelligence, Turki bin Faisal, and Khalid bin Mahfouz. They meet with a representative of al Qaeda and agree to extend the earlier arrangement made between the Saudi royal family and Osama bin Laden – whereby in return for cash, al Qaeda agrees not to attack inside Saudi Arabia.

The CIA produces an internal report that documents the numerous Saudi charities that are funding terrorists. Osama bin Laden’s name is mentioned.

1998
Al Qaeda makes it most audacious attack to date by blowing up US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people.

January 2000
Ziad Jarrah, pilot of Flight 93, which would crash into a field in Pennsylvania on 9/11, is stopped and interrogated at an airport in United Arab Emirates (UAE). He is returning from al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and is carrying Islamic religious material on him. The US is informed of the interrogation but not the details.

January
A high-powered meeting of al Qaeda occurs in an apartment complex in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. Attending the meeting is Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, the number three man in al Qaeda and mastermind behind the 1998 US embassy attacks, and architect of the USS Cole and 9/11 attacks to come. Also at the meeting is Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, two Saudi citizens who would end up as hijackers on Flight 77, the plane that crashes into the Pentagon on 9/11.

The CIA learns about the meeting beforehand and asks the Malaysian secret police to place it under surveillance. Video footage and photographs of the dozen men in attendance are taken, though no tape recording is possible. After the meeting breaks up, Al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar fly to the US on their own passports, landing in Los Angeles. There they are met by Omar al-Bayoumi, a Saudi national who works for the Saudi civil aviation authority. Just prior to picking up the two would-be hijackers, Al-Bayoumi meets with a member of the Saudi consulate in LA – a man connected to terrorist activity.

Al-Bayoumi takes al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi to San Diego, puts them up in an apartment, signs a lease, holds a party for them, enrolls them in flight school and gives them money. Later, the FBI concludes that al-Bayoumi is likely a Saudi intelligence agent. Al-Bayoumi also passes on thousands of dollars to the hijackers that originate from Princess Haifa, wife of Prince Bandar Saudi ambassador to the US.

May-June
Members of the Hamburg cell, including ringleader Mohammed Atta, enter the US. They are traveling on Saudi visas, all of which contain errors on them.

September
Al-Hazmi and Al-Mihdhar move into the home of a local imam in San Diego, Abdussattar Shaikh. The imam is an FBI informant. In fact, Shaikh holds meetings with his FBI handler while al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar sit in a room next door. Shaikh contends he was never told what mission the hijackers were on. His FBI handler, meanwhile, was never informed by his superiors to look out for al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar.

October
The USS Cole, sitting in a harbour off the coast of Yemen, is attacked by a boat laden with explosives, killing 17 sailors.

November
George W. Bush is elected president of the US in a contested election. Support for his campaign from the oil industry is generous.

2001
In the months leading up to 9/11, the CIA, FBI and National Security Agency receive a burgeoning mountain of intelligence that a terrorist attack of some magnitude, and launched by Al Qaeda, is imminent. They assume the attack will happen overseas.

January
The CIA and FBI begin to piece together the importance of the individuals who met a year earlier in Malaysia. Despite the information they have, neither al-Hazmi nor al-Mihdhar are placed on the State Department and Customs watch list.

Apri
Al-Hazmi is stopped for speeding in Oklahoma. He is let go because his name does not appear in the police officer’s data bank as a wanted man.

May
The CIA will later determine that Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, architect of 9/11 and al Qaeda’s other attacks, was entering the US as late as this month, despite the fact he is a well-known figure in the terrorist netherworld, his name first becoming known to the CIA as early as 1995.

June
CIA and FBI meet to talk about al-Mihdhar. But the CIA does not hand over critical information to the FBI. Again, the men are not placed on any watch list and a search for them is not initiated.

July
A Phoenix, Az.-based FBI counter-terrorism agent writes a lengthy memo in which he says it has been noticed that a high number of Arabs, possibly with connections to al Qaeda, are taking flying lessons in local flight schools. His memo is ignored by FBI headquarters.

August
President Bush receives a detailed and lengthy presidential daily briefing from the CIA in which Osama Bin Laden and al Qaeda’s aim of launching an attack against the US is discussed. To this day, the Bush White House refuses to release the contents of this briefing to Congressional inquiries into 9/11.

The CIA finally puts al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar’s name on the watch lists. By then it is too late. The FBI and CIA do a limited search for the men.

Sept. 11/2001
The attack occurs. The morning of the attack George Bush Sr. is meets with members of the Carlyle Group in Washington. Bin Laden's own brother is at the meeting. Members of the Bin Laden family are allowed to leave the U.S. without questioning two days later.



In contrast, a similarly
scandalous film with a different political perspective, THE CLINTON
CHRONICLES, was ignored or quickly dismissed as obviously ridiculous by the
main-stream press. Such a critical look has not been given to Moore's
picture, with TV talk show hosts and film critics around the country singing
Moore's praises.

A conservative political organization with ties to the Rev. Jerry Falwell covertly paid more than $200,000 to individuals who made damaging allegations about President Clinton's personal conduct, Salon has learned. The payments and the allegations -- some of which were either fabricated or grossly exaggerated -- were part of a covert and sophisticated political propaganda effort to influence public opinion against President Clinton. (http://www.salon.com/news/1998/03/cov_11news.html)...how can we take this critic seriously now?


The liberals love FAHRENHEIT 9/11, which is no surprise.

If he's supposed to be a movie critic, why is he so adamant with the 'liberals'? Initially there was no way I was going to take this seriously, but this is ridiculous...


Moore has refused to be interviewed by filmmaker
Michael Wilson for his movie, MICHAEL MOORE HATES AMERICA, which tries to
document Moore's constant prevarications and his motivations. Moore is not
going to let anyone be permitted to harass him the way he harasses others,
sort of an anti-Golden Rule.

Why would Michael Moore want to appear in a neo-con smear production called 'Michael Moore Hates America'? If you weren't such an ignorant, narrow-minded asshat and stepped out of the bubble you live in and watch Fahrenheit 911, you'd realize after Moore's tribute to the US military that he doesn't hate America. To insinuate that is ridiculous....you and the idiots of your ilk have the mindsets of fascists, ie: he doesn't share our viewpoints and beliefs, so therefore he hates America. It would be like me saying that conservatives hate America, because they don't share my ideology. I know that isn't true...so therefore I wouldn't say something so absurd. It's passing judgement on one's feelings for their country because they don't think like you do. Is that what you truly believe, little boy?


The falsehoods and shadings of the truth start at the very beginning of the
movie when Moore claims that numerous independent investigations have
documented that Gore really won Florida and hence the election. In reality,
the various investigations have at least been mixed, and, I believe, more
show that Bush would have won Florida in a full recount. Moore, by giving
only half of the story, tries to lead the audience to a false conclusion.

In Little Riviera Beach, about 1,000 votes weren't counted after ballot cards were ruled invalid, either for being punched too often or not distinctly enough. Voter Jerry Williams said though he studied a sample ballot sent to him in the mail, he remained frustrated by Palm Beach County's butterfly ballot and by voting equipment that didn't work -- in particular, the stylus used to mark the punch-card ballots. (http://edition.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/04/disenfranchised.voters/)

On Election Day, an estimated 90 percent of African-Americans voted for Al Gore. Many are convinced that if all votes were counted, he would have won.
They also allege that some African-Americans faced discrimination at the polls, and that an inordinate number of faulty voting machines were placed in poor communities. (http://edition.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/15/black.voters/)

Voting Irregularities in Florida During the 2000 Presidential Election (http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm)


Another time, he says that Bush can't get his judges appointed, as if it is
his problem rather than the Democrats who have used filibusters and
committees to prevent a full Senate vote in which almost all of his judges
have a solid majority of support. Again, he tells just enough of a story to
lead the audience to his version of reality.

yeah, Moore pointed out that Bush couldn't get the judges he wanted for the Supreme Court appointed. So what that he didn't mention that the Democrats used filibusters...it's a common tactic used in senates and parliaments all around the world, by both of those on the left and right. So trying to make a point there is futile. And again, if you actually bothered to watch Moore's film, you'd see that he also criticizes the Democrats for having no balls and not opposing Bush.


Then there is Moore's harping on the length of the president's vacations.
In reality, presidents hardly ever get a full day off, reading briefings and
consulting with officials every day. As Bush tells the press, "You don't
have to be in Washington to work." Moore just doesn't get it or, more
accurately, just doesn't want to.

jesus christ, that is such bullshit.
According to an August 2003 article in the Washington Post, President Bush has spent all or part of 166 days during his presidency at his Crawford, Texas, ranch or en route. Add the time spent at or en route to the presidential retreat of Camp David and at the Bush family estate in Kennebunkport, Maine, and Bush has taken 250 days off as of August 2003. That's 27% of his presidency spent on vacation. Although to be fair, much of this time is classified as a "working vacation." (http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031001.html) A month long vacation (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/august01/2001-08-03-bush-vacation.htm)


Moore constantly takes trivial facts and talks about them in such somber
tones that he makes you think they must mean something really important and
terribly evil. Moore, for example, tells us solemnly that the president
"slept that night [9/10] in a bed made of French linen." Wow. What a
revelation!

This retard I mean reviewer also can't comprehend sarcasm in Moore's narative...it's possible he could be as cluess as gmsiswhateverthefuck.


Moore takes his usual cheap shots, this time at the "coalition of the
willing" that won the liberation of Iraq. It is a large group of nations,
but he mentions only the tiniest, leaving the impression that the only big
country in it is the U.S. Big countries in it like Britain, Italy, Spain
and Poland are not listed.

The 'Big countries'? Sounds like it was written by a 14 year-old. Regardless, that was the point. Moore was making a mockery of the 'coalition' because it was a farce. Britian contributed approximately 45,000 troops to the illegal invasion, while Poland had about 2,400 and Italy 3,000. It wasn't much a coalition at all, but rather a farce.


The film is respectably constructed with old Dragnet and Bonanza footage to
jazz it up plus some provocative musical selections.

Yeah, for comedic value...which was effective.

Anyways, from there it turned into a conservative diatribe editorial...'blah blah blah liberals' et al.....but yeah, that was pretty easy to refute. Thanks for playing....smartguy.

[D_Raay]

Hehe, (y)

[cennay]

Coming fresh from Europe....
Since 4 years,from the right to the left, we are just laughing about your president...And i can assure you that EVERYBODY says he's a fucker....some who feel responsible 4 the whole world just laugh sadly cause of the deads in Irak...the others just laugh...

[saz]

You didn't refute squat! Wat you said about Falwell isn't true.

Ah, yes I did, retard. If you actually bothered to read what I posted and those links, you'd see that I clearly refuted what you posted. You seem to live in a fantasy land, because you seem to have trouble reading and accepting reality.


Bush the Vacationing president isn't true either. Moore fails to point out that the person next to Bush at Camp David is Tony Blair.

Ah, yes it is true. Again, little boy, if you bothered to read what I posted, you'd clearly see that Bush took a month off. Hello! Earth to retard! (http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031001.html)
Whoopee...Tony Blair payed a visit to Bush at Camp David.


Moore also fails to point out that in his calculatoin of vacation time he includes weekends as "vacation" Moore also ignores that nearly all of Bush's vacations were working vacations.

Whooooooooooooooooo working vacations! Right! What, he can't do work at the White House? Gimme a fucking break, you little douche...pathetic.


To Moore traveling to other parts of the country to give speaches is a vacation too.

Right....keep talking shit, straight out of your juvenile ass.


Get a life

Hahahahahahahahahaha, the little douche fuck 'tard is telling me to get a life. Thanks for playing, fuckhead.

[D_Raay]

calculatoin
Hoo man. If there were a bad speller tournament, you would win hands down.

[Loppfessor]

I'm a GI, I saw that movie and found it interesting enough to do some research and I pretty much decided that most of it was bullshit.

[Ace42]

Bullshit are you. While you might be ignorant and indoctrinated enough to be one, you don't even know what constitutes "intelligence" or what materials that would be found in a bvurnt-out bradley that would legitimise the murder of innocent people.

What research did you do, find that shit Dave Knoeppel article which a child of 10 could punch holes in? You are such a fucking retard.

[jegtar]

"[For] 9 out of 10 of the people I talk to, it wouldn't matter who ran against Bush - they'd vote for them," said a US soldier in the southern city of Najaf

I really doubt this.

[saz]

I'm a GI, I saw that movie and found it interesting enough to do some research and I pretty much decided that most of it was bullshit.

read me (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=22958)

[D_Raay]

I really doubt this.
Doubt away brother (or sister) it is not from my mouth, take it up with the AP.

[jegtar]

Doubt away brother (or sister) it is not from my mouth, take it up with the AP.

I was not doubting you or the source, just the guy that is being interviewed. He is basically saying that 90% (9 out of 10) of the military vote will go to Kerry or Nader, that where my doubts are.

[yeahwho]

Bush the Vacationing president isn't true either. Moore fails to point out that the person next to Bush at Camp David is Tony Blair.

Moore also fails to point out that in his calculatoin of vacation time he includes weekends as "vacation" Moore also ignores that nearly all of Bush's vacations were working vacations.

To Moore traveling to other parts of the country to give speaches is a vacation too.

Get a life

Maybe Bush had better intelligence than everybody else. Interesting how he was never around, like he had a sense something was up. I think you could be onto something gmsisko1. Perhaps it wasn't a vacation afterall, just calculated mobility.

[ASsman]

Ok, here lies the problem guys. People who believe F9/11 is all lie, are the same people who believe anything they read and watch. They believe what they are told, and do as they are told. For this reason they are unable to comprehend facts. They need to be spoon fed these facts. It is like trying to speak to someone in a different language. For the same reason that they are sheep, they will stay sheep. They cannot be changed ( if it isn't obvious already). Of course this shouldnt deter anyone from trying to do so. But as you can see, even with these LARGE amounts of facts, they are incapable of digesting it.
I believe they would need to make another documentary, consisting of mostly Moore holding up factual documents and having a group of Olympic judges verying the legitimacy of said documents. Ushers would pass around copies of these documents in the theater and the Pope read it out loud.

[D_Raay]

I believe they would need to make another documentary, consisting of mostly Moore holding up factual documents and having a group of Olympic judges verying the legitimacy of said documents. Ushers would pass around copies of these documents in the theater and the Pope read it out loud.
Hehe, genuinely funny and poignant as well. I think we have all noticed that the level of debate on this forum is broken into different mindsets and intelligence levels. Now, I don't, repeat, don't want to offend anyone but this is how I see it; We have your a little below average intellect to way below average intellect poster who will follow blindly because he or she really believes what comes out of our plain spoken, self made super hero, president's mouth; We have your average to above average intellect who follows Bush because his campaign has made you WANT to follow him and equates Kerry to a man wearing panties. They are an effective bunch when it comes to tearing a guy up after all(Rove and others). This lot is the toughest to debate with. They are not going to be persuaded with simple opinions and or even facts that aren't backed up most vigorously by the media. Even then they will be hesitant to concur. This group has ego. I liken them to the overweight man who returns home from the doctor who has just told him that he should lay off the cupcakes and pines over whether he should grab that last one in the refrigerator before finally succumbing to his ego and his rationalization of the threat and downing it anyway. A dangerous grouping this is. These are the ones who are voting for Bush. There are more Jasonik's and valvano's out there than Sisko's; and lastly the majority of the board, which I assume I would be a part of although I rather doubt it personally. Like the second grouping I mentioned we are of average to above average intellect(although there are some really smart people in this group, you know who you are ;) ). Dumb people wouldn't vote for Kerry, they don't understand him, blunt but true. Kerry represents hope and a fresh start. For some it's Nader or Badnarik. Hope. Hope for a better life and end to misery and corruption, a world where we could all just live in peace. That, I fear, is a fleeting dream at best. Be it Kerry, or Nader or anybody else for that matter.

We are searching for a leader, but what we should be searching for is the leader within ourself.