Kerry will get France and Germany to help us out.....don't bet on it

[valvano]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/36048bf8-0ff7-11d9-ba62-00000e2511c8.html

i'm heartbroken

:(

[D_Raay]

"That said, Mr Kerry seems genuinely committed to multilateralism and as president he would find it easier than Mr Bush to secure the German government's backing in other matters."
Michel Barnier, the French foreign minister, said last week that France, which has tense relations with interim prime minister Iyad Allawi, had no plans to send troops "either now or later". --key factor here being Allawi, hence no Allawi no problem--
"A lot depends on who is in power in both Washington and Baghdad. If there's change in both countries then it's possible we would re-examine our position, but I don't expect a massive change either way."
Mr Schröder would also be unlikely to renege on his 2002 electoral commitment not to send troops as a new general election looms in 2006.---politically motivated---
There is no sign that the German public, which loathes the US president, would accept risking German lives to salvage what is widely seen as Mr Bush's botched war. ---Mr BUSH'S war from start to finish---

Fact is V they hate Bush and Allawi, they do not even know Kerry yet. They are taking a wait and see attitude not committing to anything more than saying they would be more inclined to help out with Kerry winning and Allawi gone. Any other course would be stupid and in Schroder's case politically damaging.

[valvano]

"I cannot imagine that there will be any change in our decision not to send troops, whoever becomes president," Gert Weisskirchen, member of parliament and foreign policy expert for Germany's ruling Social Democratic Party, said in an interview.


AND


A French government official said: "People don't expect that much would change under a Kerry administration, even if things can only get better. We do not anticipate a sudden honeymoon in the event Kerry replaces Bush.




nice cut and past job....fact is even if mickey mouse gets elected in november old europe is too chicken shit to help out...maybe something to do with the money they were skimming from the oil for food program?????
:D

[SobaViolence]

i thought the mighty united states of america didn't need help. i thought they were a superpower capable of doing whatever they wanted to do...

[D_Raay]

"I cannot imagine that there will be any change in our decision not to send troops, whoever becomes president," Gert Weisskirchen, member of parliament and foreign policy expert for Germany's ruling Social Democratic Party, said in an interview.


AND


A French government official said: "People don't expect that much would change under a Kerry administration, even if things can only get better. We do not anticipate a sudden honeymoon in the event Kerry replaces Bush.




nice cut and past job....fact is even if mickey mouse gets elected in november old europe is too chicken shit to help out...maybe something to do with the money they were skimming from the oil for food program?????
:D
Your point is? The overall feel of the article is that they would be more inclined to help after they see how Kerry is going to change our policies. Bush has pushed them so far away that they are rightfully very hesitant to commit to anything right now. After all, we VOTED this retard into office(well, not really) and it would be stupid to just come out and say "Oh, yeah we will do a 180 with Kerry in office". You act as if this article is the end-all for the possibility of getting help from France or Germany. Besides that France sees the situation in Iraq as a "black hole", not a question of their intestinal fortitude. http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/focusoniraq/2004/September/focusoniraq_September240.xml&section=focusoniraq

[valvano]

i thought the mighty united states of america didn't need help. i thought they were a superpower capable of doing whatever they wanted to do...

would you have that attitude if canada were next door neighbors to.......n korea?

:D

[Ace42]

maybe something to do with the money they were skimming from the oil for food program?????


So far, I have failed to see any substantial reporting on the alleged food for oil crimes. A quick google for it found:

http://www.brendoman.com/archivesnew/006228.html

Of which one article didn't work anymore, the CNN one merely stated that a probe was being started to vindicate the UN, and the last one (from an Arab perspective according to that site) was written by Mike Raegan.

The rest of the sites are of the same order, some repeating the same article. Mike R has a lot to say on the issue.

Generally, I have found numerous articles saying "It went on" a few saying there are allegations that are being researched, and a very interesting one here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/17/woil17.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/17/ixnewstop.html

An investigation into the biggest corruption scandal in the history of the United Nations is being hampered by the US-led administration in Iraq, according to congressmen and officials in Baghdad.

So, valv, it's the French, English and the Russians (indeed, every nation in the UN excepting the US) that are corrupt, right? And not the US led administration?

[DroppinScience]

They say this now, but when Kerry is in the White House and he's chillin' with his French and German homies, I'm sure they'd warm up sometime.

They're just playing hard to get: they may be sayin' no right now, but deep down they desire the U.S. to sweep them off their feet with love letters, poetry, chocolates, flowers and, oh yes... a French kiss.

I envision a scene with John Kerry standing outside France's house with a boombox playing "In Your Eyes" by Peter Gabriel. France is so moved by this display of affection, all of a sudden thousands of French/German/Canadian/Mexican/UN, etc. troops suddenly materialize in Iraq and peace prevails and TRUE democracy reaches Iraq and democracy is restored in America.

For this vision, I think Ione Skye would make a good France. Oh yes and John Cusack can play John Kerry. If he's busy, John Kerry can play himself.

:D

[jegtar]

They say this now, but when Kerry is in the White House and he's chillin' with his French and German homies, I'm sure they'd warm up sometime.

They're just playing hard to get: they may be sayin' no right now, but deep down they desire the U.S. to sweep them off their feet with love letters, poetry, chocolates, flowers and, oh yes... a French kiss.

I envision a scene with John Kerry standing outside France's house with a boombox playing "In Your Eyes" by Peter Gabriel. France is so moved by this display of affection, all of a sudden thousands of French/German/Canadian/Mexican/UN, etc. troops suddenly materialize in Iraq and peace prevails and TRUE democracy reaches Iraq and democracy is restored in America.

For this vision, I think Ione Skye would make a good France. Oh yes and John Cusack can play John Kerry. If he's busy, John Kerry can play himself.

:D
That's some funny shit

[valvano]

Ace42,

Here's some info on the oil for food scam, if your liberal eyes can stand Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133696,00.html

oh, and I googled "un iraq oil food scam" and got many more stories:

http://www.krg.org/docs/articles/krg-986-two-probes-apr04.asp

http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternationalOrganizations/wm438.cfm

and, before you say "fox news, the nazi network" here's a story from ABC news:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html

another story

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=657739

and a british story

http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2004/08/26/cnlaun26.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2004/08/26/ixfrontcity.html

your google must be broken?
:D

[Ace42]

Here's some info on the oil for food scam, if your liberal eyes can stand Fox News:

They can't, I have personally found distortions in fox news bulletins in the past, and thus treat everything they claim to be true with more than a pinch of salt.

oh, and I googled "un iraq oil food scam" and got many more stories:
http://www.krg.org/docs/articles/krg-986-two-probes-apr04.asp

That merely outlines how the UN probe should be conducted, it has no bearing on the allegations whatsoever.


http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternationalOrganizations/wm438.cfm

The Iraqi Oil Ministry recently released a partial list of names of individuals and companies from across the world that received oil from Saddam Hussein’s regime, allegedly at below-market prices. Unsurprisingly, French and Russian names dominate the list, with former French Interior Minister Charles Pasqua and the “director of the Russian President’s office” listed as beneficiaries. The list also implicates U.N. Assistant Secretary-General Benon V. Sevan, executive director of the oil-for-food program, who has stringently denied any wrongdoing.

Notice it omits to mention Labour (Blair's party) MP George Galloway, who is famous for the telegraph's (only paper to report this) discovery of documents incriminating him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/22/ngall22.xml

Please note that there has been no corroborative evidence apart from these highly dubious documents of dubious providence found. Please note that there are numerous forged documents coming out of Iraq (RE: Nigerian uranium shipments) that have been proven to be false. Comporable documents found have been dismissed by most news services as "being literally too good to be true." This is why all the networks merely report on the fact that Congress and various auditing firms are trying to get a piece of the action, rather than sticking their neck out like the telegraph.

here's a story from ABC news:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html


This one I had found, and if you read my previous posting you'll notice I say clearly "all these stories repeat the same allegations and have the same dubious sources"

"It's almost like having coupons of bonds or shares. You can sell those coupons to other people who are normal oil traders," said Claude Hankes-Drielsma, a British adviser to the Iraq Governing Council.

Check google again, and see how many of the stories do not cite the Hankes-Drielsma allegations. Not many. This "British Adviser" is (as other news sites state) of a dubious quality, much like this whole story.

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=657739

Another story I read in google, and what do I find?

Investigators, led by Claude Hankes-Drielsma and the KPMG accounting firm, currently are in Baghdad sifting through mountains of Saddam Hussein-era records seized from his Oil Ministry and the State Oil Marketing Organization

Same story, merely saying "there were allegations made by dubious auditors, using paperwork from a source that is as questionable as any ever found"

What have we learned about "intel sources from Iraq" ? They are often wrong.


and a british story
http://www.money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2004/08/26/cnlaun26.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2004/08/26/ixfrontcity.html

"The US claims Infobank was central to Saddam Hussein's scheme to divert more than $10 billion from the oil-for-food deal to the Iraq government. It is not claiming that either bank was directly aware of the plot to deceive the UN, however."

Since when has US claims been worth the paper they were printed on? Do you not remember the US government's "Incubator baby" claim? The one they presented a video of to the UN security council?

This does not prove anything other than the fact that news papers are aware of the allegations. There is little to no evidence.

The US has sour grapes, and so having been caught out with its Halliburton oil-theft, kickbakcs, payoffs, preferential treatement, etc etc. It does exactly what Bush & Co always do - accuse the opposition of exactly their own faults.

Have to do better, sorry.

[Echewta]

Old Europe is going to kick old US of A's ass with the Euro. You'll see. Just wait until the dollar is replaced by the euro for the oil market.

But with that attitude, who needs friends right? Lets piss off terrorist, the Middle East, AND Europe. Bush is ready to grab a gun and go in fighting if he has to. Because its all about aggresion and fighting.

[Ace42]

US oil refiner Valero Energy has become the third US company to receive a subpoena seeking information about its role in Iraq's oil-for-food programme.

Oil giants Exxon Mobil and ChevronTexaco confirmed on Friday that they had also been subpoenaed, Reuters news agency reported. (...) Exxon Mobil, ChevronTexaco and Valero were the three biggest buyers of Iraqi oil during the years of the oil-for-food programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3824869.stm

So, the US companies are the three biggest buyers, and it is the French, Russians and other non-American countries that are indicative of UN corruption?

Let's see. Exxon Mobil - Is that a company that is linked to key UN personnel...

Hmmm.

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=74

ChevronTexaco?

Late Wednesday, before Bush Sr. had even left, traders in New York had already heard word that he was heading to Russia to help clear the way for the sale of a strategic stake in YukosSibneft to ChevronTexaco, which named one of its tankers after Condoleezza Rice, a former board member who is now his son's national security adviser.

http://rense.com/general41/sbu.htm

Carlye group... Where have I heard that? Oh yes, Michael Moore names it as one of the numerous "Interests" linked with the Bush family.

Valero Energy

In 1989, George Bush presented the Governor's Award for Environ mental Excellence to the Valero chemical refining company.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html

Former inductees of the Hall of Fame have included former President George Bush

http://www.valero.com/NewsRoom/News+Releases/NR_2002-07-30_2.htm

President George W. Bush, former Texas governor, lauded Valero in 1997 for being the first refiner to come forward and voluntarily permit its "grandfathered" refineries in Texas.

http://www.valero.com/EnvironmentAndSafety/Environment

[ASsman]

And that's "Making someone your bitch : For Dummies"

[Manji]

France and Germany are owed outstanding debts from the former Iraqi government. The U.S. asked that nations forgive these debts. Both countries would lose money hence the NO cooperation attitude. Also A very large part of France's population is made up of unchecked Muslims from around the middle east. What does that mean you ask? It means there is an imigration problem. It isn't all that hard to get into France even for a wanted terrorist. France doesn't know how many money launderers, bombmakers and whatever are in country right now. Helping the U.S. is like inviting car bombs and suicide bombers to montmartre. This is the same reason France would not let U.S. planes fly in their airspace in the 80's when the U.S. went to bomb Libya. And it's the same Reason France isn't going to help John Kerry should he get elected in 2004. Their hands are tied.

[Echewta]

William Wallace.

[DroppinScience]

FrAlso A very large part of France's population is made up of unchecked Muslims from around the middle east.

As far as I remember, it's 10% of the population that's Muslim. Not THAT significant.

[adam_f]

Any relation to Ben Wallace? The Detroit Pistons Center/Power Forward?

[Manji]

As far as I remember, it's 10% of the population that's Muslim. Not THAT significant.

France has the largest Muslim population in Europe.
You don't think 10%; 1 of every 10; 5,900,000 people is a large number?
Considering there are much more than 10 other cultures in the world, why does 10% not seem like much to you? 10% IS rather substantial wouldn't you say?

[DroppinScience]

France has the largest Muslim population in Europe.
You don't think 10%; 1 of every 10; 5,900,000 people is a large number?
Considering there are much more than 10 other cultures in the world, why does 10% not seem like much to you? 10% IS rather substantial wouldn't you say?

Ok, ok, I guess I'm just an idiot. It is kinda significant. I guess I was in the mindframe of 'significant' being close to 50% or something huger.

Afterall the largest 'minority' in America is now Latino with something like 30 million (around 10% of America's population, nevermind that Hispanics aren't a race, they're composed of white, black, mestizo, etc. people from Latin America but that's another story) and African-Americans not far behind and that's always called significant.

I retract my statement, good sir. Still, I'm not sure the Muslim population would be the whole story when it comes to this lil' thing we call Iraq. Afterall, doesn't the UK have a similarly significant Muslim population and Blair loooooooooooooves doing whatever Bush tells him to do, no matter what his Muslims say.

[infidel]

France and Germany would not help the US if the Tooth Ferry were president.You still believe in the tooth fairy?
Or are you talking about the ferry that takes your teeth across the East River?

Forget France and Germany, more help would come from Russia, China, India and about 238 other nations anyway.

[DroppinScience]

Forget France and Germany, more help would come from Russia, China, India and about 238 other nations anyway.

Ahem, did you not forget the solution to this conundrum is playing "In Your Eyes" to France on the ghetto blaster? Hellloooooooooooooo! :p

France and the U.S. are torn lovers. To get 'em back together, we'll have to concoct some elaborate scheme to get the two of them in the same room (maybe tell America they left their toothbrush at Macedonia's place and tell France they forgot their favorite shirt in the basement of New Zealand's basement after that wild house party), then all of a sudden their paths cross and they must face each other for the first time since that messy break-up.

U.S.: "You're looking.... well, France."
France: "Uhh... same to you, America. You've never looked better."
U.S.: "Yeah, I've been working out lately." *sheepish grin*
France: "Oh you still have those adorable dimples. Why I haven't seen you light up since we gave you the Statue of Liberty."
U.S.: "And you haven't looked this radiant since that time we marched through the beaches of Normandy and you were wearing this lovely blue, white and red dress. You were so happy to see those lousy deadbeats Nazi Germany evicted from your home."
France: "Listen, I've meaning to tell you something for quite some time..."
U.S.: "Oh I'll go first! I'm sorry about that whole 'Freedom Fries' thing."
France: "And I'm sorry we made fun of your crappy movies. But you gotta do something about that Pauly Shore."
U.S.: "We're working on that. Let's let bygones be bygones!"
France: "Say no more, mon amour!"

And then they give a long, steamy embrace.

Man, I should make romance movies or something. :p

[SobaViolence]

droppin' science


that was beautiful.


(y)

[DroppinScience]

droppin' science


that was beautiful.


(y)

Thanks, man. :)

Anything to take away the negative sting that valvano likes.

[D_Raay]

You still believe in the tooth fairy?
Or are you talking about the ferry that takes your teeth across the East River?
I know laughs at Sisko's expense are somewhat mockish, but this had me laughing.

[Loppfessor]

i thought the mighty united states of america didn't need help. i thought they were a superpower capable of doing whatever they wanted to do...

This from a Canadian?? C'mon that's not even a real country...

[ChrisLove]

Surely their is no question of France and Germany helping in Iraq? Surely the reason they are not there is that they object to the war, right? Its not just that they think Bush is a tosshead. It does not matter who the president is, they believe the war to be wrong and that is why they are not there.

What Kerry can do is start rebuilding international relationships such that the rest o the world goes back to viewing the US as an ally rather than an enemy (like they did until about 2.5 years ago). This will presumably help the US in a number of reasons but you will not get French and Germans fighting in Iraq, I wouldnt have thought.

And can peopl please stop reffering to nations as pussies or cowards or whatever. Obviouly the Germans are not cowards and neither are the French, IMO it is very bold to stand up against te most powerful nation when they are out of line. The cowardly act was Britains in alligning itself with the bully.

[Drederick Tatum]

France they forgot their favorite shirt in the basement of New Zealand's basement after that wild house party),

not likely. we hate the French. and the Americans. and the Australians...and South Africans.

[ASsman]

Well after Costa Rica left the Coalition of the willing, we will never finish anything.

[Manji]

Ok, ok, I guess I'm just an idiot. It is kinda significant. I guess I was in the mindframe of 'significant' being close to 50% or something huger.

Afterall the largest 'minority' in America is now Latino with something like 30 million (around 10% of America's population, nevermind that Hispanics aren't a race, they're composed of white, black, mestizo, etc. people from Latin America but that's another story) and African-Americans not far behind and that's always called significant.

I retract my statement, good sir. Still, I'm not sure the Muslim population would be the whole story when it comes to this lil' thing we call Iraq. Afterall, doesn't the UK have a similarly significant Muslim population and Blair loooooooooooooves doing whatever Bush tells him to do, no matter what his Muslims say.

For the record, You're not an idiot.
10% can seem small, it's understandable. I just think in the context of more than 10 of something (in this case cultures) it becomes more and more substantial a number.

I don't the the Muslim situation is the whole problem either, the lost money that Hussein owed the French is a factor. And maybe the overall attitude that is conveyed by our media and probably their media (you know the one where the citizens of France and the U.S. all hate eachother over this) I think those things contribute as well. France's muslim population may not even react at all. Their immigration has gone unchecked for so long it's just that no one knows. A Terrorist blow to a Country whose economy is driven by tourism is big trouble. I don't think Chirac wants that to happen and I can't completely blame him for being afraid of it.