Any Bush supporters out there?

[K-nowledge]

I am a republican and a Bush supporter. I am also a huge Beasties fan and have been sence LTI. I respect the Beasties, and thier fans, opinions on issues in the world today. I have read a lot of posts on the B-boys message board and almost all political posts are anti-Bush. Just want to know if there are any Beastie Boy fans that support Bush? :)

[K-nowledge]

I'm not trying to pick a fight....but why do you support Bush?
Because I believe that Bush is doing the right things for America. The Dems are doing everything in thier power to berate the Bush admin. for thier political gain. As a veteran, it sickens me to see Kerry ride the coattails of his veteran status and degrade Bush's veteran status. When you say "I'm not trying to pick a fight...but..." is exacty what I'm saying. Why do we have to fight. Because we different views? No, it's because you feel it's the way to get your point across and that is what the Kerry team is doing as well. Peace.

[yeahwho]

I'll pass.

[adam_f]

I support Bush and you'll soon learn my friend that it isn't widely accepted on the board.

[Brass_Munkey]

I support Bush and you'll soon learn my friend that it isn't widely accepted on the board.

That might be an understatement.

[K-nowledge]

I support Bush and you'll soon learn my friend that it isn't widely accepted on the board.
It's not a matter if it's widely accepted on this board. It's a matter of hearing the other side of Beastie Boy fans. :)

[adam_f]

Dude, it's a matter that if you say anything remotely resembling Bush supporting, you'll get your ass handed to you with a verbal fireball.

Most just dismiss it as pure shit and the others just don't want to hear it.

[infidel]

I support Bush and you'll soon learn my friend that it isn't widely accepted on the board.
I think you'll find bush support isn't widely accepted by most people who own a computer and know how to use it because they get a much broader view of world events than someone sitting in front of the tube.

[K-nowledge]

I think you'll find bush support isn't widely accepted by most people who own a computer and know how to use it because they get a much broader view of world events than someone sitting in front of the tube.
Wow, you have a real "broad view." Doesn't matter if you get you news of world events on the internet or T.V. It's still an opinionated point of view.

[ASsman]

I support Bush and you'll soon learn my friend that it isn't widely accepted on the board.

Spock would agree wouldn't agree with Bush. Logic dictates. And as for supporting one canidate or the other, all I ask for is facts. Not just someones bullshit opinion. Because if I wanted opinions, I would kill myself like some sort of samurai.

[frisky girl]

Because I believe that Bush is doing the right things for America. The Dems are doing everything in thier power to berate the Bush admin. for thier political gain. As a veteran, it sickens me to see Kerry ride the coattails of his veteran status and degrade Bush's veteran status. When you say "I'm not trying to pick a fight...but..." is exacty what I'm saying. Why do we have to fight. Because we different views? No, it's because you feel it's the way to get your point across and that is what the Kerry team is doing as well. Peace.

Oh, right, and Bush didn't try to degrade Kerry's war hero status with those ugly commercials? And the reason Kerry is doing well, my dear, is due to the fact that he's a distinquished, intelligent, humane person running against a pugnacious power-hungry overgrown frat boy.

[SobaViolence]

and Bush is a douchebag.

[K-nowledge]

Oh, right, and Bush didn't try to degrade Kerry's war hero status with those ugly commercials? And the reason Kerry is doing well, my dear, is due to the fact that he's a distinquished, intelligent, humane person running against a pugnacious power-hungry overgrown frat boy.
And that's your opinion. But how you portray Kerry against Bush is not very realistic.

[ASsman]

Now now children. Lets not turn him off completly, like Adam F. He might still see the error in his ways, (assuming there is one). If you guys take it easy. Let him support his claim, and so shall you. Truth will prevail.

WE REPORT! YOU DECIDE!

[melissajaneane]

Come on people! Who really cares if someone is a democrat or republican these days. In order to even get elected as president you have to be right in the middle of the road anyway. The lines between democrat and republican have blurred so much is it really even correct to call anything bi-partisan anymore? 3rd party presidential candidates don't get much media coverage so what does the average joe have to choose from these days?

And why wasn't Ralph Nader invited to the Presidential debates, anyway?

[Ace42]

Wow, you have a real "broad view." Doesn't matter if you get you news of world events on the internet or T.V. It's still an opinionated point of view.

Firstly, opinionated doesn't mean "full of opinions" or "based on opinion" it is a synonym for "arrogant" - that aside, news should NEVER be prejudiced, partisan, misleading, etc. Its only agenda should be to convey the facts as clearly as possible. At most it should sum up one view of thought on the matter, preferably more, STATING CLEARLY THIS IS ONLY ONE INTERPRETATION.

Fortunately, a lot of news organs manage to do this quite competently.

Unfortunately, none of them are in America. The only Americans I know and talk to that are not totally convinced of the gross misconduct of US news sources are ones that don't have access to any other nation's media. Try reading the BBC news website, for example.

[drobertson420]

I'm a Bush Supporter....Oh, you mean The President..... :o
No seriously, the HATRED for Bush is so strong that The Dems could run
F-ing Luther Cambell and he would have a chance because it's ANYONE BUT BUSH....The anger is blinding people to the fact that Kerry is one of the lamest Canidates to run since Dukakis (n)
BUT, "...If Kerry is Elected, people like Christopher Reeve will walk again."***


***John Edwards

[drobertson420]

They need to keep Edwards locked in a room until Nov 2.... :D

[jegtar]

Oh, right, and Bush didn't try to degrade Kerry's war hero status with those ugly commercials?
To be fair I don't think Bush made those commercials and I think he played a key part in getting them of the air. Blaming him for those commercials is like blaming Kerry for F/911.

[infidel]

To be fair I don't think Bush made those commercials and I think he played a key part in getting them of the air. Blaming him for those commercials is like blaming Kerry for F/911.
What do you mean off the air?
I saw one just a couple days ago.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Oh, right, and Bush didn't try to degrade Kerry's war hero status with those ugly commercials? And the reason Kerry is doing well, my dear, is due to the fact that he's a distinquished, intelligent, humane person running against a pugnacious power-hungry overgrown frat boy.

And you base this on what?

Edumacation time!

Kerry spent 4 months in Nam. While many other soldiers and officers were turning down Purple Hearts to stay with their men Kerry left. I don't question the legitimacy of his medals just his actions.

Kerry was a cold warrior for the Soviets. He went to France and met with the NVN reps and came back and spouted the exact same retoric that the KGB created and supported "Peace" organizations were saying since 1965. The World Peace Organization was a KGB created and funded organization among many others and were spreading these lies about Am. forces since 1965. Who did he get his marching orders from? The NVN or the KGB? I wish he'd answer that question. Don't believe me? go to http://www.wintersoldier.com. Not good enough? go to the NSA's site http://www.nsa.gov/venona. You can find out first hand what the KGB was up to in America and why you all think the way you do.

Humane? Tell that to the 1000's killed after the US left VietNam, Tell it to the people in the re-education camps, tell it to the boat people, tell it to the 2 million plus in Cambodia, tell it to the vet he slandered, tell it to the POW's.


It sickens me that this traitor may just become president. He is a socialist appeaser. Worse he is no different that the Social Democrates that ran Germany in the 20's. They sold thier countries soul for peace and ran the country into the ground and look what that got them in the long run.

In the words of the great FZ: "It can't happen heeeeeere!" Guess again sister.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Unfortunately, none of them are in America. The only Americans I know and talk to that are not totally convinced of the gross misconduct of US news sources are ones that don't have access to any other nation's media. Try reading the BBC news website, for example.

You should be on comedy central. I work for a British company (in the US) my boss in British and I've met quite a few Brit's while at this company. They even think that the BBC is blatently biased. The BBC is one of the most leftwing biased new orgs in the world. Only a leftist lacky wouldn't see this.

[hellojello]

And you base this on what?

Edumacation time!

did u by anychance get ur 'edumacation' from a box of cornflakes ?

cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes
cornflakes cornflakes nutsfruits nutsfruits cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes

[cookiepuss]

I'd rather have a socialist symapthizer in office than continue with a selfish capitolist. I can not agree with the old darwinist thoeries of only the strongest should survive. I guess that makes me a humanitarian.

[Ace42]

You should be on comedy central. I work for a British company (in the US) my boss in British and I've met quite a few Brit's while at this company. They even think that the BBC is blatently biased. The BBC is one of the most leftwing biased new orgs in the world. Only a leftist lacky wouldn't see this.

No-one seriously could believe the BBC is a left-wing biased organisation, which can only mean one of two or three things:

1. You are a lying asshole

2. They are lying to you to make you feel better, or are talking about a different news service.

3. They are derranged BNPesque fools who believe the BBC is an Islamophile propoganda tool of the government.

Either way, it illustrates you clearly do not know what you are talking about.

[D_Raay]

To be fair I don't think Bush made those commercials and I think he played a key part in getting them of the air. Blaming him for those commercials is like blaming Kerry for F/911.
Well... How about the 145 BILLION in tax cuts he just signed for rich corporations and rich farmers in SWING states? This is considerably worse than any ad. And it is politically motivated and underhanded. Who pays for these tax cuts? Can anyone of you Bush supporters answer that? Oh wait it's not your concern right? Let your grandchildren worry about it right? You are such a shining example of metaphorical rats following the piper to financial doom.
I don't want to go on a rant but, I will ask again for the board. (It's like the debates, you ask one question and spend 90 seconds hearing an answer to a different question) WHY would you support this president? Because he ISN'T Kerry? Can't use that one we already have it. You crave a free Iraq? That is downright laughable, as if any American, especially a republican one, gives a shit about an Arab nation. You really think Bush is a macho guy and you buy all that flight suit and posing stuff? Just what has he done for America? Are we safer? Hardly. Are there are, in fact, now more terrorists gunning for us now that we invaded a sovereign nation? Most definitely. Were we lied to about the reasons for that very invasion? Yes.
So what is it? What are your reasons for voting for Bush? And before you start formulating an anti-Kerry message, remember I didn't ASK why you don't like Kerry I asked why in the world would you support this president.

[melissajaneane]

I'd rather have a socialist symapthizer in office than continue with a selfish capitolist. I can not agree with the old darwinist thoeries of only the strongest should survive. I guess that makes me a humanitarian.


I second that emotion.

[D_Raay]

It makes me so happy to see women seeing through the Bush propaganda and siding with Kerry. YOU are the key to this election. :D

[ASsman]

Meh, atleast Kerry actually served. Damn!

[infidel]

Truth will prevail, but you must be willing to reaise the truth!
reaise? what the hell does that mean? is it gismo language for "bend"?

[K-nowledge]

Meh, atleast Kerry actually served. Damn!
Bush served a military duty too!
He might not have gone to war, but he served his country.

[D_Raay]

Bush served a military duty too!
He might not have gone to war, but he served his country.
Yeah, he was a "Stay at home" soldier . Certainly earned him the right to fly onto an aircraft carrier as if he had just come back from battle didn't it?

[Ace42]

Bush served a military duty too!
He might not have gone to war, but he served his country.

He might not have gone to any airforce base anywhere either for that matter, considering no-one at all can remember him, except for one guy who remembers him being there on a day that he wasn't even in the same State.

I am amused that you think you can serve your country by proxy. Hey, I'm serving your country right now. I might not have gone to war (or even be a US citizen or even gone near a US airbase), but I am serving the US!

<idiot>

[Ali]

I would kill myself like some sort of samurai. Seppuku (http://www.msu.edu/~couilla6/ninja/seppuku.htm)!

[Ali]

reaise? what the hell does that mean? is it gismo language for "bend"? Thank god for the 'ignore' function

[drobertson420]

"....Certainly earned him the right to fly onto an aircraft carrier as if he had just come back from battle didn't it?


Being the President of the United States AND The Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces earned him that right! :D

[drobertson420]

" Yeah, he was a "Stay at home" soldier "

I Guess One's military service doesn't count unless you are shot at.... ;)

[Ali]

And why wasn't Ralph Nader invited to the Presidential debates, anyway? cos he's a JOKE! He helped Bush beat Gore last election by splitting the Democratic vote. WTF doesn't he run as a Democrat?

(erm I'm not an American and probably don't know enough about the history of Nader and the Democrats, but it seemed to me that he sunk the Democrats in 2000, and Mister Moore says he did, too, in Stupid White Men.)

[Funkaloyd]

He wouldn't get elected as a Democrat either. Kucinich ran on a similar platform, and regardless of the effect he had on the election, he was never any closer to winning it than Nader is now. As an independent, the threat he poses to the Democrats could convince them to support progressive policies and/or election reforms.

...And it's been a while since I read it, but I recall that Moore was firmly on Nader's side in Stupid White Men.

[jegtar]

Well... How about the 145 BILLION in tax cuts he just signed for rich corporations and rich farmers in SWING states? This is considerably worse than any ad. And it is politically motivated and underhanded. Who pays for these tax cuts? Can anyone of you Bush supporters answer that? Oh wait it's not your concern right? Let your grandchildren worry about it right? You are such a shining example of metaphorical rats following the piper to financial doom.
I don't want to go on a rant but, I will ask again for the board. (It's like the debates, you ask one question and spend 90 seconds hearing an answer to a different question) WHY would you support this president? Because he ISN'T Kerry? Can't use that one we already have it. You crave a free Iraq? That is downright laughable, as if any American, especially a republican one, gives a shit about an Arab nation. You really think Bush is a macho guy and you buy all that flight suit and posing stuff? Just what has he done for America? Are we safer? Hardly. Are there are, in fact, now more terrorists gunning for us now that we invaded a sovereign nation? Most definitely. Were we lied to about the reasons for that very invasion? Yes.
So what is it? What are your reasons for voting for Bush? And before you start formulating an anti-Kerry message, remember I didn't ASK why you don't like Kerry I asked why in the world would you support this president.

When did I say I was voting for Bush?

[ClifRa JOnes]

I'd rather have a socialist symapthizer in office than continue with a selfish capitolist. I can not agree with the old darwinist thoeries of only the strongest should survive. I guess that makes me a humanitarian.

humanitarian?
60 million dead in the Soviet Union
30 million dead in China
2 million dead in Cambodia
The list goes on.

What gives you the right to steal from one to give to another. No one is talking about the strongest surviving. Check the facts, more people are better off when thier countries embrace market capitalism than anything the socialist have done for them. If we are so selfish why is America the most generous country in the world when it comes to charity.

It not about the strongest it's about personal responsibility. A concept the leftist are devoid of.

[ClifRa JOnes]

did u by anychance get ur 'edumacation' from a box of cornflakes ?

cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes
cornflakes cornflakes nutsfruits nutsfruits cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes cornflakes

And where did you get yours? I have yet to see a coherent argument out of you. Just more name calling. Come on, dispute my points with intellegence and logic, quote some historical reference, show us your education if you have one.

[ClifRa JOnes]

" Yeah, he was a "Stay at home" soldier "

I Guess One's military service doesn't count unless you are shot at.... ;)

I really hate this line that Bush didn't go to Vietnam, I also hated the right slamming Clinton for not going. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to go fight in Johnson's dirty little war. I don't blame any parent for using whatever influence they had to keep thier child out of that war. I don't blame Bush and I never blamed Clinton.

[Schmeltz]

If we are so selfish why is America the most generous country in the world when it comes to charity.


Actually, America gives out the smallest percentage of its GDP of any Western nation. Not that it's not appreciated! I guess it depends on how you define generosity.

[ClifRa JOnes]

He might not have gone to any airforce base anywhere either for that matter, considering no-one at all can remember him, except for one guy who remembers him being there on a day that he wasn't even in the same State.

I am amused that you think you can serve your country by proxy. Hey, I'm serving your country right now. I might not have gone to war (or even be a US citizen or even gone near a US airbase), but I am serving the US!

<idiot>

You accumulate points for flying mission with your sqadron. The required points for a ANG pilot/year was 50. 1st year Bush racked up over 300, 2nd year over 300, 3rd year over 300, 4th year over 300. it was only in his 5th year that he was anywhere near the require minimum, I believe it was just over 50. In his last year he was assigned to a non flying position. They don't give these point for being someone's son and they don't give them for flying out of civilian airports. Plenty of his fellow piots remember him. As far as that last year, many pilots when they are assigned to a non-flying position or they understand that thier flying days are over let thier flight status laps.

FACT: more pilots were killed flying training and patrol mission in the US than were killed in combat in VietNam. It's a dangerous profession. I know, I had to ride in the back seat of an S3 Viking for 4 year. I saw many good men die for no reason other than the Carter administration would not spend the money to properly maintain our aircraft, but we did our duty and flew the missions in planes no sane person would ever get into.

We need to get over this. There was no shame is serving, there was no shame in serving at home and there was no shame in not serving for whatever reason.

[SobaViolence]

face it, they're both assholes.


Bush is just the bigger one.

[infidel]

I really hate this line that Bush didn't go to Vietnam, I also hated the right slamming Clinton for not going. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to go fight in Johnson's dirty little war. I don't blame any parent for using whatever influence they had to keep thier child out of that war. I don't blame Bush and I never blamed Clinton.I'm a Vietnam vet and agree.

I have nothing but respect for the guys with enough balls to dodge an unwinable needless war, but only if they will admit their reasons for not going. GW's stance during his later college years was the troop numbers in Vietnam should be increased yet he bailed on it by going in the NG then not showing up and breaking the contract he signed with the military.

What really fuckin pisses me off is that GW continues to lie about it to this day. If he would just fess up my respect for him would increase immensely.
At this point I have zero respect for the chickenshit.

[ClifRa JOnes]

I'm a Vietnam vet and agree.

I have nothing but respect for the guys with enough balls to dodge an unwinable needless war, but only if they will admit their reasons for not going. GW's stance during his later college years was the troop numbers in Vietnam should be increased yet he bailed on it by going in the NG then not showing up and breaking the contract he signed with the military.

What really fuckin pisses me off is that GW continues to lie about it to this day. If he would just fess up my respect for him would increase immensely.
At this point I have zero respect for the chickenshit.

Come on. Let me guess, Army? He fulfilled the obligations of his contract. I believe I has showed that already. There were many pilots in the ANG who have had similar circumstances. He more than fulfilled his flight time requirements, he ask for and was given a transfer to the Alabama ANG. He knew he would not be flying there so it wasn't surpising that he allowed his flight status to lapse. This was and is still done very routinely today. And lastly, as I stated, it was still a dangerous job. More pilots died in training and patrol accidents than were killed in combat.

I don't care who you are, they don't give out Honerable Discharges to someone who failes to meet thier obligations.

Your buying into the propaganda, check out the facts for yourself.

[Ace42]

You accumulate points for flying mission with your sqadron. The required points for a ANG pilot/year was 50. 1st year Bush racked up over 300, 2nd year over 300, 3rd year over 300, 4th year over 300.

Bullshit. I saw the transcript of the whitehouse press conference on the "records that were turned over" and it said nothing of the sort. Infact the sole dialogue was "we can't make out the figures" and "Why are these dates covered?" and "It has been stated catergorically that having an aquaintance to "sign you in" was a widespread occurence at the time" that is NOT points for flying missions, and certainly not over 300. Or do you know better than Bush's own goddamn spokesman on the matter?

Plenty of his fellow piots remember him.

*one* does, and he remembers him being there when Bush doesn't remember being there.

There was no shame is serving, there was no shame in serving at home and there was no shame in not serving for whatever reason.

Wrong on all accounts. There is plenty of shame in serving in an unjust war, nearly as much shame in supporting it from afar (not putting your money where your mouth is), and as for "whatever reason" - there are plenty of reasons for not serving that could cause shame.

[D_Raay]

When did I say I was voting for Bush?
I was responding to your commercial remark by telling you what was worse than that. Like I said I ranted, not to you personally but the Bush supporters.

[D_Raay]

"....Certainly earned him the right to fly onto an aircraft carrier as if he had just come back from battle didn't it?


Being the President of the United States AND The Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces earned him that right! :D
Being the President and the Commander in chief it was insulting to real combat soldiers for this dipshit to fly in, which appears to the layman's like he had just come back from battle, and parade around in his flight suit for one big photo op when American soldiers are dying in HIS war.

[drobertson420]

".....There is plenty of shame in serving in an unjust war"

UNLESS...Your running for President....Then, you're a HERO :p

[drobertson420]

in order to fly in that vehicle, you HAVE to wear a Flight suit....
Oh, sure, it looks all heroic for the press, but that was just a Bonus for Dubya.

[drobertson420]

"....Being the President and the Commander in chief it was insulting to real combat soldiers "

Unless you're Clinton. (Whom I voted for)

Presidents by War Service
American Revolution
Andrew Jackson
James Madison
James Monroe
George Washington
1812
William Henry Harrison
Andrew Jackson
Zachary Taylor
John Tyler
Mexican
Millard Fillmore
Ulysses S Grant
Franklin Pierce
Zachary Taylor
Civil War
Chester A Arthur
James Garfield
Ulysses S Grant
Benjamin Harrison
Rutherford B Hayes
Andrew Johnson
William McKinley
Spanish-American
Theodore Roosevelt
World War I
Dwight D Eisenhower
Harry S Truman
World War II
George Bush
Dwight D Eisenhower
Gerald R Ford
Lyndon B Johnson
John F Kennedy
Richard M Nixon
Ronald Reagan


Vietnam
John Kerry (combat)
George W. Bush (ANG) :D

[jegtar]

I was responding to your commercial remark by telling you what was worse than that. Like I said I ranted, not to you personally but the Bush supporters.

My bad

[ClifRa JOnes]

Bullshit. I saw the transcript of the whitehouse press conference on the "records that were turned over" and it said nothing of the sort. Infact the sole dialogue was "we can't make out the figures" and "Why are these dates covered?" and "It has been stated catergorically that having an aquaintance to "sign you in" was a widespread occurence at the time" that is NOT points for flying missions, and certainly not over 300. Or do you know better than Bush's own goddamn spokesman on the matter?

Ok, my numbers were a bit off, thats why I didn't use specific numbers because I was pulling them from memory (I should know better because of my bad memory)

Excerpt from a good site on the subject, not a pro bush site: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy#Bush.2 7s_flight_performance_in_1972
---

Bush's service obligation

Some critics have gone beyond the AWOL charge to claim that Bush was a deserter or failed to complete his required National Guard service. Defenders of President Bush have countered that he was honorably discharged, which normally would not happen if he had not completed his service. In early 2004, at the request of the White House, retired Texas Air National Guard Lieutenant Colonel Albert Lloyd reviewed Bush's payroll records and stated that Bush earned 253 points in 1968, 340 points in 1969, 137 points in 1970, 112 points in 1971, 56 points in 1972, and 56 points in 1973. Lloyd also claims that pilots were required to attain only 50 points a year and Bush's service was thus satisfactorily completed. However, independant review of the records found the 56 point total for 1973-74 to be incorrect. Lloyd has since indicated that this was a 'typo' and should have been 50 points, but even that is not supported by the records. Lloyd listed 35 points for service at drills and 15 gratuitous points for remaining active in the guard, for a total of 50. However, review of the records by US News and World Report shows only 33 points for drills and only 5 gratuitous points due to Bush's move to inactive status while attending Harvard Business School, for a total of 38. The full 15 gratuitous points could not be assigned to a guardsman on inactive status, and were not on Bush's records.

Further, critics note that the '50 point' standard actually applies to whether or not a particular service year is counted towards military retirement benefits. The National Guard actually required attendance at monthly drills (their recruitment ads still state "just one weekend a month").

On May 27, 1968 Bush signed a six year obligation to complete "48 scheduled inactive-duty training periods" each year (four, one weekend, per month). Regulations allowed Bush's commanders to excuse him from a maximum of 10% of these training drills in any given year, thus requiring that Bush complete at least 43 to satisfy his obligation and avoid being transferred to active duty, most likely in Vietnam. However, Bush's payroll records show that he completed only 36 in 1972-73 and only 12 in 1973-74. Combined, those amounts would add up to the yearly requirement of 48 training periods and Bush has stated that the time he missed in 1972 was 'made up' in January of 1973. However, regulations only allowed drills to be made up within a few weeks after the scheduled date and the payroll records show that those January training periods were actually applied as his service requirement for that month and pre service for February and March of 1973. In either case, in his final two years in the National Guard, George W Bush completed 48 out of a required minimum 86 training drills (96 he committed to minus 10 which his commanders could excuse him from). This was unsatisfactory service under the regulations and normally would have resulted in being forced onto active duty and sent to Vietnam.

When confronted with this information, Colonel Lloyd stated that if these standards were strictly enforced then "90 percent of the people in the Guard would not have made satisfactory participation." Bush's defenders have also argued that, at a time with a glut of pilots with the end of the Vietnam War, Bush was doing the Air National Guard a favor by leaving early, because excess pilots were then being assigned to desk jobs.
---
While not a stellar performance I would venture to guess that there are quite a few pilots in the ANG that have similar circumstances.


Wrong on all accounts. There is plenty of shame in serving in an unjust war, nearly as much shame in supporting it from afar (not putting your money where your mouth is), and as for "whatever reason" - there are plenty of reasons for not serving that could cause shame.

The shame is not on the men who served. This is crass and demeaning. The drafted soldier didn't have a choice except run to Canada and many were to honarable to do that. Even those who enlisted believed they were going to fight for a just cause. Yes, the cause was not just and they were betrayed by thier leaders who didn't have the guts to fight the war to win nor the guts to get out. We need to step away from the blame game when it comes to the men who did or did not serve.

Kerry stated, correctly, during the 1992 campaign that we need not question who did or did not serve in VietNam. Now he changes his tune and brings it up. Why?

As the libs like to say. It's over, time to move on!

[hellojello]

cliffra does bush pay u 2 practice fellatio on him or do u just do it cause u like it

[Ace42]

While not a stellar performance I would venture to guess that there are quite a few pilots in the ANG that have similar circumstances.

While not a stellar performance, it was enough to make him someone who should've been in 'Nam, and is enough to totally discredit what you said. The fact that other silver-spooners got away with it too doesn't change what you just stated. The point stands.

The shame is not on the men who served.

Yeah, they were just following orders, which makes killing women and children in an unjust war totally acceptable. Just like the German soldiers who were "just following orders" when they loaded jews onto the train to Auchwitz.

This is crass and demeaning.

And slotting gooks is perfectly respectable... Hell, they had slitty little eyes and were potential commies - they had it coming!

The drafted soldier didn't have a choice except run to Canada and many were to honarable to do that.

Indeed, rather than live like a coward in Canada, or joining the ANG, they decided to drop napalm on little asian girls from several hundred feet, not even seeing the people they roasted alive. What heros. Hell, I'd let them sleep with my sister, all of them. Well, maybe not, they prolly got STDs from dunking slope-bush though. 5 dorrah a piece.

Even those who enlisted believed they were going to fight for a just cause.

Or "morons" as I like to call them.

[ClifRa JOnes]

cliffra does bush pay u 2 practice fellatio on him or do u just do it cause u like it

Are you ever going to post something intellegent here? Or are you completely incapable of it.

[Space]

this is real yall.


http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/graph.html

[ClifRa JOnes]

To Ace42:

Problem is my friend you still are buying into the KGB propaganda that this stuff was wide spread across S. VietNam. Not true. It was not a policy of the US military nor was it a wide spread occurance. Did it happen some places? Sure it did. Just like it Allied forces committed some pretty ugly shit during WWII. War is hell, and for a lot of bullshit reasons VietNam was pure hell.

The guys who went on trial at Nuremberg were the leadership and the camp guards. The infintry grunts were not tried because they were just following orders.

If you want to pound away at someone about VietNam pound on the leadership because they deserve it.

[frisky girl]

humanitarian?
60 million dead in the Soviet Union
30 million dead in China
2 million dead in Cambodia
The list goes on.

What gives you the right to steal from one to give to another. No one is talking about the strongest surviving. Check the facts, more people are better off when thier countries embrace market capitalism than anything the socialist have done for them. If we are so selfish why is America the most generous country in the world when it comes to charity.

It not about the strongest it's about personal responsibility. A concept the leftist are devoid of.

Are you out of your mind? The most generous country in the world when it comes to charity?! Actually, we're one of the stingiest, even with our own citizens. I mean, here we are this big industrialized, first world country and we don't even provide our own people with national health care, preschool, higher education, paid maternity leave for new mothers, etc. Honestly, as someone who's lived abroad, I've experienced first-hand how other countries' governments take better care of their citizens. One of many reasons why I'm voting for Kerry.

[drobertson420]

New video shows Kerry and Bill O'Reiley in love nest...... :D

[Ace42]

Problem is my friend you still are buying into the KGB propaganda that this stuff was wide spread across S. VietNam. Not true. It was not a policy of the US military nor was it a wide spread occurance. Did it happen some places? Sure it did. Just like it Allied forces committed some pretty ugly shit during WWII. War is hell, and for a lot of bullshit reasons VietNam was pure hell.

Which makes soldiers, irrespective of orders, sides, colour of skin or uniform, the country of origin, the country they are fighting in, etc. Demons to a man-jack. The NVA lost over 1 million individuals according to April 3, 1995 (Post-communist) statistics.

Translation
The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population.

End Translation

Note: Given a Vietnamese population of approximately 38 million during the period 1954-1975, Vietnamese casualties represent a good 12-13% of the entire population. To put this in perspective, consider that the population of the US was 220 million during the Vietnam War. Had The US sustained casualties of 13% of its population, there would have been 28 million US dead.

http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

So no, my figures do not reflect pro-communist bias (Which actually minimised NVA / VC casualties, to talk up their equipment and military)

The guys who went on trial at Nuremberg were the leadership and the camp guards. The infintry grunts were not tried because they were just following orders.

And no-one thought to say "If they told you to jump off a bridge, would you have done it?"

If you want to pound away at someone about VietNam pound on the leadership because they deserve it.

If I took a gun, lined up someone in my sights, blew them away - would that be ok? What if someone told me to do it? What if someone said they'd lock me up if I didn't? What if I was going to get paid for it, and a nice set of clothes? What if it were you, or your son, or your family that I was told to kill? Would that make it any better? I don't care what title the man giving the orders has, I don't care how he dresses (Whether he has stripes or stars or bars or an eagle) I don't care if he tells you you might have to go to jail if you don't do it, or if it is in a street, on a bus, in the jungle, in a hut, in a tunnel network, up a tree, in a bar, that is no excuse for murder, whether licensed by a corrupt state or not.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Are you out of your mind? The most generous country in the world when it comes to charity?! Actually, we're one of the stingiest, even with our own citizens. I mean, here we are this big industrialized, first world country and we don't even provide our own people with national health care, preschool, higher education, paid maternity leave for new mothers, etc. Honestly, as someone who's lived abroad, I've experienced first-hand how other countries' governments take better care of their citizens. One of many reasons why I'm voting for Kerry.

Oh those great Eurpoean programs for thier "workers" 35 hour work weeks, 4 weeks vacation, paid leave, etc. etc. This is why thier unemployment rates are continuously higher than ours, why thier productivity is so low, why thier companies are moving operations to the eastern countries because they don't have all these stupid labor laws.

But AGAIN you misunderstand. I was not talking about wealth redistribution I was talking about charity.
---
Embrace Philanthropy Instead Of Welfare

European social democracies are often quick to label America as a country that does not care. What that singularly ignores is that America gives more of its GDP to charity each year - an astonishing 2% or so- than any other western democracy. Even in a recession, and even after September 11th, Americans gave $212 billion to charitable causes last year. Whatever else one can criticise American society for, no one can dispute it has a culture of philanthropy that others in the world must try to emulate.

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/principal/speeches/27-09-02.shtml
---

Read it and weep.

[Ace42]

This is an edited version of an article which first appeared in the Wall Street Journal Europe, in September 2002.

And I seem to recall a break down of different nation's humanitarian aid donations in some other post which I cannot find.

[frisky girl]

Oh those great Eurpoean programs for thier "workers" 35 hour work weeks, 4 weeks vacation, paid leave, etc. etc. This is why thier unemployment rates are continuously higher than ours, why thier productivity is so low, why thier companies are moving operations to the eastern countries because they don't have all these stupid labor laws.

But AGAIN you misunderstand. I was not talking about wealth redistribution I was talking about charity.
---
Embrace Philanthropy Instead Of Welfare

European social democracies are often quick to label America as a country that does not care. What that singularly ignores is that America gives more of its GDP to charity each year - an astonishing 2% or so- than any other western democracy. Even in a recession, and even after September 11th, Americans gave $212 billion to charitable causes last year. Whatever else one can criticise American society for, no one can dispute it has a culture of philanthropy that others in the world must try to emulate.

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/principal/speeches/27-09-02.shtml
---

Read it and weep.

Learn to spell and weep. For future reference, T-H-E-I-R spells their,
C-R-I-T-I-C-I-Z-E spells criticize (unless you're British, which it's pretty obvious you're not). I know it's tough to write without spell check, but these weren't exactly difficult words.

[ClifRa JOnes]

Learn to spell and weep. For future reference, T-H-E-I-R spells their,
C-R-I-T-I-C-I-Z-E spells criticize (unless you're British, which it's pretty obvious you're not). I know it's tough to write without spell check, but these weren't exactly difficult words.

I didn't write this, I copied it from a british article.

But your right, I cannot spell. To darned computer dependant.

---

Also, don't feel bad, I did the same thing in an email to a British Columnist once.

[Ace42]

I didn't write this, I copied it from a british article.

Urm "The Wall Street Journal Europe" is not "British" as far as I know. Leastways I have never ever seen it on sale. I can only assume the translation to English was done by someone with using English spelling.

Edited and published in Brussels

http://www.europesubs.wsj.com/

[ClifRa JOnes]

Urm "The Wall Street Journal Europe" is not "British" as far as I know. Leastways I have never ever seen it on sale. I can only assume the translation to English was done by someone with using English spelling.



http://www.europesubs.wsj.com/

Most stuff published in Europe in English will use the British spelling.

[Ace42]

By "British" spelling you mean "English" spelling. And yes, quite conceivably, but that doesn't make it a "British" article any more than a translation of the Qu'ran using US spelling is "an American article"

[ClifRa JOnes]

By "British" spelling you mean "English" spelling. And yes, quite conceivably, but that doesn't make it a "British" article any more than a translation of the Qu'ran using US spelling is "an American article"

I never said this was an American article, it was about America. The fact that it was written in Europe make it even more effective for the purpose I used it for.

[trésbienfem]

I'd rather have a socialist symapthizer in office than continue with a selfish capitolist. I can not agree with the old darwinist thoeries of only the strongest should survive. I guess that makes me a humanitarian.

I also second this.

[Ace42]

I never said this was an American article, it was about America. The fact that it was written in Europe make it even more effective for the purpose I used it for.

Read what I said, the words in it...

You said:
I didn't write this, I copied it from a british article.

I said "it is not a British article" - I said this because it was not written or distributed (primarily) in Britain, and not by a British company or interest.

So, assuming your argument wasn't "it is British because they sometimes use the word 'Britain' in its content" I think that's the end of that chapter.

[K-nowledge]

He might not have gone to any airforce base anywhere either for that matter, considering no-one at all can remember him, except for one guy who remembers him being there on a day that he wasn't even in the same State.

I am amused that you think you can serve your country by proxy. Hey, I'm serving your country right now. I might not have gone to war (or even be a US citizen or even gone near a US airbase), but I am serving the US!

<idiot>
If you are serving the U.S. in some way, thank you. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army. I served during the Gulf war but did not go to the gulf. I stayed at home training troops to go. I do not think you can "serve your country by proxy". But I do think it is wrong to judge anyones military service. I also thinks it's wrong to use your military service as a political gain and degrade someone elses service, hence Kerry. Bush flew in the Air National Guard. I do not know what you know about airplanes or fighter jets but it takes quite a bit of training and time just to be able to sit in a cockpit. I also do not know where you get your information but there are plenty of poeple that knew Bush during his service and flew along side him during training missions.

Now as far as calling me an idiot. I quote the Beasties. "Hey, Fuck You!"

[Whois]

face it, they're both assholes.


Bush is just the bigger one.

:D (y)

[Whois]

To Ace42:

The guys who went on trial at Nuremberg were the leadership and the camp guards. The infintry grunts were not tried because they were just following orders.


You need to reread your history, some enlisted troops (including camp guards) did go on trial (but not at Nuremberg) and were imprisoned or executed for their crimes.

Here are the lists of major and minor defendants involved in the Nuremberg trials:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/meetthedefendants.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/subsequenttrials.html


An interesting side note about the execution of German prisoners by US troops at Dachau:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/BuechnerAccount.html

[Destroyer]

Despite the fact that Bush may claim my country was "liberated" I still live in fear. Nothing has changed. In fact things are worse. And the fanatical hatred of the U.S. has expanded beyond the Middle East into other countries.

[Ace42]

I also do not know where you get your information

White House press conference. Idiot.

[EF shhhh Hutton]

right here, bro...Nov 2nd IT'S ON! The Superbowl of Politics. Bush vs Kerry. Time to party like Marty next week when GW wins. 4 more years of Bush our fearless leader!

[Ace42]

right here, bro...Nov 2nd IT'S ON! The Superbowl of Politics. Bush vs Kerry. Time to party like Marty next week when GW wins. 4 more years of Bush our fearless leader!

4 years is optimistic. The US will get nuked by N Korea by then.

[drobertson420]

4 years is optimistic. The US will get nuked by N Korea by then.
You can only hope for that,because anything BAD for America is GOOD for Democrats. Bad economy? Excellent!(Bush's Fault) Loss of Jobs? Kick-ass! (Bush's Fault) Hated by other countries? Sweet! (Bush's Fault) Gas Prices rising? Beautiful! (Bush's Fault) Democracy failing in Iraq? Hooray! (Bush's Fault) Children left behind? 3 cheers! (Bush's Fault)
Not that any of this applies to you. (assuming eXistenZ* is a euphemism for Great Britain) ;)



*also a strange Cronenberg flick(as opposed to all his non-strange movies) :D

[K-nowledge]

White House press conference. Idiot.
There you go with the "idiot" stuff again. You must be surrounded by them. (n)

[Ace42]

Y
*also a strange Cronenberg flick(as opposed to all his non-strange movies) :D

I thought it was in many respects better than the Matrix. My favourite Cronenberg flick has to be Naked Lunch, based on the Bill Burroughs book. It is as weird as it gets.

[EF shhhh Hutton]

4 years is optimistic. The US will get nuked by N Korea by then.


...not if we nuke them first. I say nuke the entire middle east. F#ck'em all.

[Whois]

I thought it was in many respects better than the Matrix. My favourite Cronenberg flick has to be Naked Lunch, based on the Bill Burroughs book. It is as weird as it gets.

(y) Criterion (y)

http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=220

[Ace42]

...not if we nuke them first. I say nuke the entire middle east. F#ck'em all.

North Korea is far-east not middle east last time I checked. Congratulations, you just did a Bush and attacked the wrong people, causing greater animosity, and quite possibly left yourself wide open for Korea nuking you.

In the words of Gismo "thanks for playing"

In the words of Hudson "It's game over man, it's game over! What the fuck we gonna do now, what we gonna ?!?"

[Destroyer]

...not if we nuke them first. I say nuke the entire middle east. F#ck'em all.

It must be nice living in a state of complete ignorance foolish infidel. Right? I mean after all they say that ignorance is bliss. Also North Korea will NOT nuke the U.S. They will however sell their nuclear weapons to whoever has the cold hard cash to pay for it. Also, Iran is dangerously close to developing nuclear bombs. If this should occur, it will pose an enormous threat to the very survival of America. The Ayatollahs, Mullahs and Imams who rule over Iran have every intention of sharing their nuclear weaponry with the myriad of terrorist organizations that they train, finance, arm and sponsor. This is a cold hard fact known throughout the Islamic world and the Middle East.

[ASsman]

Wow, there are hardly enough extention cords for all these people.

[drobertson420]

I thought it was in many respects better than the Matrix. My favourite Cronenberg flick has to be Naked Lunch, based on the Bill Burroughs book. It is as weird as it gets.


Mmmmmm... Black Centipede Meat :p

[drobertson420]

Meh, atleast Kerry actually served. Damn!


By "Served", do you mean "Shot At"?

[ASsman]

Sure.

[drobertson420]

"...Also, Iran is dangerously close to developing nuclear bombs. If this should occur, it will pose an enormous threat to the very survival of America


Good thing we're on either side of it. Now Squeeze like a Pimple...

[Whois]

"...Also, Iran is dangerously close to developing nuclear bombs. If this should occur, it will pose an enormous threat to the very survival of America


Good thing we're on either side of it. Now Squeeze like a Pimple...

..and watch the flow of puss spread all over that part of the world.

BRILLIANT! (n)

Anyone for a five way nukefest involving Russia, China, Pakistan, India, and Iran?

Hint: Iran want nukes because states with nuke don't get invaded.

[drobertson420]

[QUOTE=Whois]..and watch the flow of puss spread all over that part of the world.

BRILLIANT! (n)

Anyone for a five way nukefest involving Russia, China, Pakistan, India, and Iran?


Puss Is Cool.....

[drobertson420]

I see USA isn't on the list,...so I'm Down (lol) ;)

[drobertson420]

I see USA isn't on the list,...so I'm Down (lol) ;)



We could ride it out like some kind of "Beneath The Planet of the Apes" Mutant.


(Self-Quote) ;)

[drobertson420]

cliffra does bush pay u 2 practice fellatio on him or do u just do it cause u like it


No, I Think CliFfra Is A Real-Live Veteran ;)

[drobertson420]

I am a republican and a Bush supporter. I am also a huge Beasties fan and have been sence LTI. I respect the Beasties, and thier fans, opinions on issues in the world today. I have read a lot of posts on the B-boys message board and almost all political posts are anti-Bush. Just want to know if there are any Beastie Boy fans that support Bush? :)


Ya Man....I'm With You, Bro...

[CSAR]

Come on people! Who really cares if someone is a democrat or republican these days. In order to even get elected as president you have to be right in the middle of the road anyway. The lines between democrat and republican have blurred so much is it really even correct to call anything bi-partisan anymore?



It's not really between Democrats or Republicans, it's about do you American people want a president who hurts your country on the World stage, or maybe something better?? The Bush Administration has hurt your country inside and outside of your borders, so why would anyone want him back??