Attention: Bush supporters

[D_Raay]

The claim that polls show voters split evenly between Bush and Kerry defies all logic and reason. More to the point, such a claim is insulting to voters.

Setting all other issues aside, the cold hard fact of the matter is that the Bush administration lied about Iraq to justify a war of conquest. I know there are some hard-core Bush supporters still living in denial and refusing to admit they were made fools of, but with the issuance of the Duelfer Report, it is now the OFFICIAL US GOVERNMENT POSITION THAT Iraq did NOT have weapons of mass destruction or the means to make them. Iraq had indeed complied fully with the United Nations requirement to disarm. Other government reports confirm that Saddam Hussein was NOT supporting Al Qaeda, nor was any link between Iraq and 9-11 ever documented.

The President lied.

There was no "Intelligence failure". An Intelligence Failure is when something is happening that you don't know about. You miss the evidence. Or you misinterpret the evidence you have.

But with regards to the claims about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, there was no evidence to miss or misinterpret. There could not be, since in hindsight there were no weapons to leave traces of evidence with. The story about weapons of mass destruction was just made up, and fraudulently manufactured "proof" created to support that lie. The mere existence of Tony Blair's dossier, plagiarized from a student thesis, is proof not only that the claims of Iraq WMDs were lies, but were known and conscious lies. Had their been any real proof, it would have been shared immediately between the various war-mongers. There would have been no need for Tony Blair to concoct his discredited Dossier. But, what the public were offered were mislabeled and blurry photos, made up dossiers, and balloon inflators misidentified as mobile biological weapons laboratories (which the British government knew about since they had sold the balloon inflators to Iraq in the first place).

So, there was no "intelligence failure". There was no intelligence with which to fail. The whole crock about Iraqi WMDs was a made-up fiction. Deal with it.

Personally, I can think of no greater crime a leader can commit than to lie to his people while sending their children off to a war of conquest. An administration capable of lying to start a war is capable of any evil.

And that’s why media claims that half of voters will vote for Bush are unbelievable, and insulting.

Because that headline is claiming that at least half of voters are perfectly okay with a President that lies to start a war.

That headline claims that at least half of voters are okay with sending other people’s kids off to die in a war based on lies, in exchange for a tax break.

That headline claims that at least half of voters are okay with the epidemic of severe birth defects that has hit the families of our service people exposed to depleted uranium in Iraq.

That headline claims that at least half of voters are okay with a United States that has become one of the most hated nations on Earth.

That headline claims that at least half of voters are okay with a United States that tortured innocent civilians in the hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that the government now sheepishly admits never existed.

I've never met anyone like that.

I don't know anyone who says, "Yes, it is okay for the President to lie to us all to start a war nobody wants, and we don't need to know his real reasons."

I don't know anyone who says, "Yes, it is okay for your kid to be killed and crippled in Iraq as long as I get a tax cut."

I don't know anyone who says, "Yes, it is okay for your kid to be killed and crippled in Iraq as long as I get a tax cut."

I don't know anyone who says, "Yes, it is okay for our government to torture people."

The people I know are appalled by torture, mourn the war dead, are concerned at America's loss of moral leadership in the world, and do NOT give their consent to be ruled by a government that lies to them to start wars.

And that is why I don't believe the headline that voters are split evenly between Bush and Kerry. It is just too fantastic.

Of course, political analysts will admit that public polls don't measure public opinion, they are intended to manufacture it, hoping that if the illusion is created that most people want to rub blue mud into the navels that most people will just go along and the blue mud manufacturer will grow rich (and then make the appropriate political contributions).

And that is the real reason for the polls claiming that Bush and Kerry are in a dead heat; to create the illusion that the race is even in advance of yet another litigious and dishonest election. Already the news is reporting scandal after scandal of rigged voting machines, destroyed voter registration cards, and other vote frauds. In one case reported last week, voters in an early voting state were receiving hoax phone calls inviting them to vote by using the buttons on their touch-tone phones. Needless to say, after completing the phone call, these voters will be staying home on November 2nd.

For vote fraud to work, it must appear that the candidate engaging in fraud could have won anyway. If candidate "X" is down twenty points in the polls then wins the election, taxpayers will be suspicious. Stealing an election requires polling numbers that make it look like the fraud is winning anyway. And that, in the end, is the real reason that despite Kerry's post-debate lead, the media polls have slowly edged their way back to claiming that the race is even.

Would this President use his influence to rig the media polls? Of course. This is, after all, a President who lied to the people to send our kids off to a war of conquest.

[Funkaloyd]

One of the better posts I've ever read.

(sorry that I can't think of anything more to add)

[Ace42]

It is a shame he didn't source it. But let's face it, there is no point. It'll either be dismissed as "left wing biased media" or "unproven allegations" or "anti-American lies." May as well save time and not bother.

[Funkaloyd]

I believe that he wrote it himself.

[Ace42]

I meant source the claims he made.

[IceGargoylle]

Would this President use his influence to rig the media polls? Of course. This is, after all, a President who lied to the people to send our kids off to a war of conquest.


CRACK THE VOTE!!!!

[infidel]

And that’s why media claims that half of voters will vote for Bush are unbelievable, and insulting.In many ways this is good as it will encourage more voter turnout.
Landslide for Kerry coming and the pollsters are going to wonder what the fuck happened.

[BGirl]

Great post, and I like your theory.

I came to the board to share something that might explain some of the poll numbers (so I'm posting it here).

The World According to a Bush Voter (http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20263/)

The article concludes, and I have found this to be true in my own experience talking to Bush supporters (online, I don't know any in real life!):

Bush supporters choose to keep faith in their leader than face the truth either about their president or the world as it is.

So there is definitely a lot of that going on.

Back to polls, I was just talking about polls with my brother last night and he told me that Gallup admitted they were polling more Republicans! (This would go along with your theory about skewing the polls to enable a theft of the election by Bush et. al.) And he did a poll on newsweek.com that had 80% of the respondants going for Kerry. What's up with that? (My husband's response: "Bush voters don't read." Ha!)

My own view is that we have all the people who voted for Gore in 2000 (half a million more than voted Bush), they're not going to vote Bush. Then we have all the people who for whatever reason never voted before but now are energized, registered, and ready to boot Bush by voting Kerry. THEN we have all the Republicans and others who voted Bush in 2000 but now are making noise about voting Kerry. I just don't see how it can be anywhere near even.

I think your theory also points to another disturbing possibility: if Kerry does win by a wide margin as it seems he should, people will question it because of the polls.

[infidel]

I have to wonder if the crazy poll numbers might also be due to many folks who are afraid to answer Kerry because they think the pollster might really be the FBI or Homeland Security making up a list of ""non-patriots"

[Torimeg]

I would like to know what the Anti-Bush league believes Kerry is going to do to solve the current situation?
I understand if you all disagree with the decisions the Bush administration made regarding Iraq, but now that it's done what do you believe Kerry is going to do to make everything all pretty again?
Oh wait, it wasn't pretty in the first place... no there was a brutal dictator in Iraq who was killing his own people... Was that torture not appalling enough? Was that the kind of moral leadership you are looking for? Oh, I know you don't support what Saddam was doing, and you don't support what Bush is doing, but you do support your troops...
I honestly hope that you all don't believe that Saddam had nothing to do with the death of thousands of innocent Americans...

"After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "...it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world. Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage, political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come."

Anyway, Just because it's on TV doesn't mean it's true... there is always another side to the story

[D_Raay]

This thread was intended to solely focus on the current administration NOT John Kerry. That is a whole other can of worms. And just like any other Bush supporter ^ the debate always seems to turn away from Bush's own faults to rather try to point out John Kerry's.
Is there never to be a healthy argument discussing his faults and mistakes without turning it into a smear Kerry thread?


Oh , and Ace, sourcing much of what I wrote would have been not pertinent as much of the substance we know to be true. At least that was my thought while writing it.

[BGirl]

Look Torimeg, the reasons given to Congress and the country for the war on Iraq were WMDs and ties to al-Qaeda. Both of which turned out to be lies. You think that's okay?

And as for fighting terror, did you know that Bush was given the opportunity to take out Abu Musab Zarqawi in 2002 but declined to do so because it would undermine his case for war on Iraq?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

And he let Osama bin Laden escape so he could pursue the Iraq war. He's fighting terrorism, is he? Doing a real bang-up job of it...

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and join us in the reality-based community.

[Torimeg]

I just cannot get a Kerry supporter to answer that question... what the hell is he going to do?

[D_Raay]

I just cannot get a Kerry supporter to answer that question... what the hell is he going to do?
And how, pray tell, are we to do this?
As far as I know, none of us can see into the future. (Although I am betting that if anyone can it is Whois ;) )
We do, however, already know how Bush would handle it.

[Torimeg]

You know, I support Bush because I know that he is not afraid to get up and kick some ass if necessary... Kerry hasn't said anything that has convinced me that he would do that.
I know people who are actively fighting in Iraq... right now... they aren't Kerry supporters... they're worried about what will happen if Kerry is elected.
If that doesn't speak loud enough then I don't know what does...

[BGirl]

You know, I support Bush because I know that he is not afraid to get up and kick some ass if necessary...

His Vietnam War record seems to indicate otherwise.

[Whois]

And how, pray tell, are we to do this?
As far as I know, none of us can see into the future. (Although I am betting that if anyone can it is Whois ;) )
We do, however, already know how Bush would handle it.

My crystal ball is broken right now, you could ask the Pythia (Oracle of Delphi).

[Torimeg]

No he didn't get a purple heart for a flesh wound, but when millions of Americans were storming Wal-Mart for an American flag to stick in their front yard or hang from their car antena he stood up and defended his country... my question still stands... if Kerry is elected what the hell is he going to do... and since you can't see into the future, what is it that you expect him to do?

[D_Raay]

Kerry has spent the last few weeks telling anyone who would listen how he and John Edwards would "kill" the terrorists where they stand. This coming from a man who has actually killed someone in combat, unlike your courageous leader.
What more would you like him to say? And you spoke of not believing everything you see on TV. Are you perhaps believing everything you are seeing from the Karl Rove machine? Perhaps you should ask one of the soldiers who have been maimed or had there stay extended way beyond what it should have what he thinks of Bush being re-elected.
You say George Bush is a stout, strong, steady leader. I could not disagree more. Leaders unite not divide. His administration is a ghastly one which will be viewed infamously in the annals of our history.

[D_Raay]

My crystal ball is broken right now, you could ask the Pythia (Oracle of Delphi).
Heheh, excellent (y)

[D_Raay]

No he didn't get a purple heart for a flesh wound,
Have you ever been shot? Or shot at? Make light of it if you will, but you shouldn't speak of minor wounds that you have never suffered yourself.

[Torimeg]

I actually do know soldiers that are serving in Iraq... right now... they DO NOT support Kerry. I know Desert Storm vets, they don't support Kerry... Tell me what war was it that you fought in?
Sure, I don't doubt Kerry would kill a terrorist where he stood... unfortunately these aren't the kinds of terrorits that knock on your front door to see what you're going to do.
And still I'm wondering what is it that Kerry is going to do about the current situation in Iraq?

[BGirl]

Here you go, Torimeg:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq.html

Personally I like Dennis Kucinich's Department of Peace plan for real, lasting peace. The initiative would certainly receive more support in a Kerry administration.

http://www.dopcampaign.org/

Cleaning up the Iraq mess will not be easy no matter who is the next president. But Bush has made the wrong decisions again and again - he's simply not capable of handling the terrorism problem effectively. And a second Bush term would likely leave us with an Iran mess and a Syria mess to clean up as well. Can we really afford this?? We have to DE-escalate the cycle of violence, not ramp it up as Bush has done and has promised to continue to do if granted another term.

Kerry is our only hope to turn things around. It is a step back from the edge of the abyss. One thing I DO know is that Kerry will use knowledge, reason and facts to guide his decision-making, whereas Bush has not allowed reality to interfere with his simple-minded fantasies about how the world works.

[D_Raay]

I actually do know soldiers that are serving in Iraq... right now... they DO NOT support Kerry. I know Desert Storm vets, they don't support Kerry... Tell me what war was it that you fought in?
Sure, I don't doubt Kerry would kill a terrorist where he stood... unfortunately these aren't the kinds of terrorits that knock on your front door to see what you're going to do.
And still I'm wondering what is it that Kerry is going to do about the current situation in Iraq?
I would never serve in any war initiated pre-emptively by this government, only one in which I were defending my home. (Sound familiar that is what the Iraqi people are doing)
Sure, I don't doubt Kerry would kill a terrorist where he stood... unfortunately these aren't the kinds of terrorits that knock on your front door to see what you're going to do.
I try not to be harsh, but this statement is ridiculous at best. If you actually believe that Bush can fight a more effective war on terror all you need to do is look back at the PDB's he didn't think warranted a return from his vacation back in august 2001. They weren't knocking on the door either then they were creeping into the back yard getting ready to blow it up.

Listen, we can argue all day about this, fact is I don't support either candidate. I tried to explain to you that this was a thread not about Kerry. By all means go start a "Kerry is a coward because he got shot" thread.

[Torimeg]

This thread was titled... attention Bush Supporters...
well, you got my attention... now you don't want it...typical

I do agree that we could argue this all day.

As a final response... just because you don't like Bush doesn't mean you should support Kerry.

If you want a real opinion on what is going on in Iraq... ask a soldier.
If you're sincerely grateful for your freedom... thank a soldier.

And to BGirl... I don't support anything that comes from Berkely... Liberal Freaks!

[BGirl]

Wow, you don't support a peaceful planet. Well then I guess there's not much else to talk about.

Good luck in Iraq. I'm assuming you've signed up to go, since you support the war. I hope you and your friends don't come home in body bags. (Sincerely.)

[Torimeg]

Oh... I can't stand it... Of course I support a peaceful planet... everyone wants a peaceful planet... and those soldiers that will die in Iraq today are doing so of their own free will... the free will that the soldiers that died before them gave to them... the same free will that you sit here today & take for granted.
My husband is a Desert Storm vet... he took a grenade in the thigh so you could sit here and speak... freely...
I won't go to war... I choose to stay home & raise my children... my husband went to war instead.

I'll pass on this round of kumbaya... I have a PTA meeting to attend.

[IceGargoylle]

Wow, you don't support a peaceful planet. Well then I guess there's not much else to talk about.

Good luck in Iraq. I'm assuming you've signed up to go, since you support the war. I hope you and your friends don't come home in body bags. (Sincerely.)

rediculous

[IceGargoylle]

Would this President use his influence to rig the media polls? Of course. This is, after all, a President who lied to the people to send our kids off to a war of conquest.


hehe...who has reeally used influenc ein polling?

the pres. has no power over the major media including all the beloved liberal newspapers which are openly and admittidly vouching for Kerry.

[Whois]

Oh... I can't stand it... Of course I support a peaceful planet... everyone wants a peaceful planet... and those soldiers that will die in Iraq today are doing so of their own free will... the free will that the soldiers that died before them gave to them... the same free will that you sit here today & take for granted.
My husband is a Desert Storm vet... he took a grenade in the thigh so you could sit here and speak... freely...
I won't go to war... I choose to stay home & raise my children... my husband went to war instead.

I'll pass on this round of kumbaya... I have a PTA meeting to attend.

I assume you mean a grenade fragment...

I'm a Desert Storm vet who hates Bush and Kerry - Panama, Desert Shield/Storm, and the current conflict were/are all based on lies and disinformation, in order to serve the political interests of those in DC.

They had nothing to do with defending America or our freedom.

p.s. The conflict in (former) Yugoslavia was also a big steaming pile of crap.

[BGirl]

I didn't mean to offend, Torimeg, but I was offended you would write off something that many serious, thoughtful people are working hard to achieve simply because it came from Berkely University. I think that's pretty small minded. And besides, the Department of Peace idea came from Washington, DC. They're just having a conference at Berkeley.

I sincerely thank your husband and your friends for their sacrifice. But I'm sorry, your husband took a grenade to the leg for oil, not freedom, and this is what riles me so. This adminstration is abusing the military (yes, I realize your husband fought in the previous Iraq war. I was opposed to that too).

And by the way, we can't speak that freely anymore. Almost 2,000 people were arrested at the Republican National Convention because they tried to speak freely in opposition to the government. People have to sign loyalty oaths to hear Bush speak in person. This is freedom?

IceGargoylle, check out the documentary Manufacturing Consent to learn how the media really works. It's a real eye-opener.

[SobaViolence]

fuck the troops
and fuck your freedom

[laserx54]

I have one question for you, Torimeg:


Why are we in Iraq?

[robofoo76]

fuck the troops
and fuck your freedom
don't take it out on the troops.

[Torimeg]

BGirl: I live in the liberal bay area, I feel very confident in my gesture towards Berkeley... The conference is being held there for a reason my dear.
The bottom line is my husband took a grenade (fragment) hit to the leg because he chose to join the Military, chose to be on the front line and chose to reinlist when the time came to do so... he was there and lived it... he'll tell you that it sucked, but given the opportunity he would be back there today... He has handed candy out to little kids and given water to thirsty people... he knows why he was there... and it wasn't to lower your gas prices.

Laserx54: In all honesty we are in Iraq for the same reasons we have been in every other war... Power and Money. The bottom line is that we are in Iraq, we have removed an evil man and we are now responsible to help these people rebuild their country... God knows if we were to walk out now then then all you would hear is crying that we left these poor people to fend for themselves...
And... on 9/12 the majority of the American public wanted to see someone's head on a platter... someone was going to get their ass kicked... and if you ask some people they will say that we just finished a job that wasn't politically correct to finish the first time (Desert Storm).

[BGirl]

BGirl: I live in the liberal bay area, I feel very confident in my gesture towards Berkeley... The conference is being held there for a reason my dear.

Every once in a great while I agree with something proposed by someone on the right. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened. You should judge an idea by its merits, not by whose idea it is.

I mentioned that the idea came from DC and not Berkeley because of the point I was making - I had to reference your comment, which technically wasn't correct. I didn't want to state something that is false. If that makes any sense.

[krs5446]

BGirl: I live in the liberal bay area, I feel very confident in my gesture towards Berkeley... The conference is being held there for a reason my dear.
The bottom line is my husband took a grenade (fragment) hit to the leg because he chose to join the Military, chose to be on the front line and chose to reinlist when the time came to do so... he was there and lived it... he'll tell you that it sucked, but given the opportunity he would be back there today... He has handed candy out to little kids and given water to thirsty people... he knows why he was there... and it wasn't to lower your gas prices.

Laserx54: In all honesty we are in Iraq for the same reasons we have been in every other war... Power and Money. The bottom line is that we are in Iraq, we have removed an evil man and we are now responsible to help these people rebuild their country... God knows if we were to walk out now then then all you would hear is crying that we left these poor people to fend for themselves...
And... on 9/12 the majority of the American public wanted to see someone's head on a platter... someone was going to get their ass kicked... and if you ask some people they will say that we just finished a job that wasn't politically correct to finish the first time (Desert Storm).

I dont get this chance very often but i like to take it when it comes.
Torimeg, i say THANK YOU to your husband and im sorry for his wound. it is because of great men like him and the rest of our soldiers that i am proud to be an american. these men whether liberal or conservative or whatever they believe are heroes and deserve to be treated like one. if i could ever help any veteran i would gladly put their needs before mine after all they have already put mine before theirs to make our whole world a better place.

[ASsman]

What are we still arguing about? It's like telling people it's day out when clearly the Weather Channel has told them its night.