The Bush Celebration Thread [Archive] - Beastie Boys Message Board

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 01:26 PM

JUST-IN

11-03-2004, 01:40 PM

If you have any savings in US dollars time to dump them for Euros or gold.
The rest of the world isn't going react kindly to bush's victory. Before they could blame it on the US government, now they can blame it on the US citizens.
A new superpower in China or a united Europe was coming in the next century anyway, but due to the will of the American people it may very well come to be in the next few years.

I totally agree every where in the world is hate against adolf bush and
now American people choose bush again this hate will be against whole america and will grow like it's never been before and this is real shit

"POWER TO THE PEOPLE" I don't believe that anymore

Kerry was chosen to help bush to his victory

Corrupte klootzakken!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad:

may the PEACE be alive

Fladgy Glitz

11-03-2004, 01:45 PM

What do you really think that Bush has done for you?

Whois

11-03-2004, 01:46 PM

Sadly enough, it's people like you (Kerry supporters) who hope that America will one day not be the strongest country in the world and that we will not be a free land. To you I say.. GET FUCKED and EAT A FAT DICK. America will always prevail, just like the Jews have for ages. Take your propaganda home and cry all night for Kerry and Osama, today is a party for 4 MORE YEARS OF A STRONG AMERICA!!!! USA! USA! USA!

Jesus, do ANY of you morons EVER read history?

Disco Delvechio

11-03-2004, 02:00 PM

Here's a big fuck you for all you lies, bullshit and propaganda.
This from the party that gets the "word' out through Rush Limbagh, Dennis Miller, The New York Post, and Fox News (both brought to you by Australian multi-billionaire, Rupert Murdoch). That is hilarious dude.

infidel

11-03-2004, 02:30 PM

Fladgy Glitz

11-03-2004, 02:39 PM

How is this a "stronger America"?!
9/11 happened on Bush's watch and the economy tanked on Bush's watch.
That's great work W.

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 03:10 PM

How is this a "stronger America"?!
9/11 happened on Bush's watch and the economy tanked on Bush's watch.
That's great work W.

9/11 was planned for years under Clinton's watch. Let's not forget the USS Cole, the Marine barracks, the 1st bombing of the WTC, etc.... that were al done under Clinton's watch. The economy started to tank in the last yrs. of Clinton's Admin, the Dot Com bust of 99-00, then the WTC on 9/11, and all othe Enron and MCI and Adelphia garbage. It's ridiculous to point fingers either way now. The point is we need to make sure it doesn't happen again.

IMHO and 50million+ other Americans, 4 more years of Bush is our best CHANCE at a stronger, safer America.

Whois

11-03-2004, 03:27 PM

9/11 was planned for years under Clinton's watch. Let's not forget the USS Cole, the Marine barracks, the 1st bombing of the WTC, etc.... that were al done under Clinton's watch. The economy started to tank in the last yrs. of Clinton's Admin, the Dot Com bust of 99-00, then the WTC on 9/11, and all othe Enron and MCI and Adelphia garbage. It's ridiculous to point fingers either way now. The point is we need to make sure it doesn't happen again.

IMHO and 50million+ other Americans, 4 more years of Bush is our best CHANCE at a stronger, safer America.

"the Marine barracks"

Reagan

When you get simple facts like that wrong...

EF shhhh Hutton

11-03-2004, 03:36 PM

SCOREBOARD!

baltogrl71

11-03-2004, 03:54 PM

An EU super power or a China super power. Wow that may be the case, seeing how China has more people in it's army then we have people in our country.

Why again would that matter? I welcome another super power to take some of the burden off America. I'm sure the EU and China would be more than willing to go into places like the Sudan, Liberia, etc.... and settle the situations.

Sadly enough, it's people like you (Kerry supporters) who hope that America will one day not be the strongest country in the world and that we will not be a free land. To you I say.. GET FUCKED and EAT A FAT DICK. America will always prevail, just like the Jews have for ages. Take your propaganda home and cry all night for Kerry and Osama, today is a party for 4 MORE YEARS OF A STRONG AMERICA!!!! USA! USA! USA!Um, I'm sorry but, isn't it Bush and the other right wing freaks that want to take freedom away no stem cell research(because you're all to dumb to understand science), no abortion(beacause it is better to have an unwanted embryo become an unwanted child with fucked up futures because no one is willing to flip the bill for all of these babies)and don't you dare discuss condoms in school because that is morally wrong to educate kids on safe sex, if you don't talk about it kids will never figure out how to fuck! And then there is the whole gay wedding, because if you let this happen the whole country will go staight to hell, how dare those faggots want to be able to share their lives monogomosly, and god forbid them getting the same tax or insurance breakes as a married couple, please if you want to stand up for your man Bush fine but get your shit straight.

ClifRa JOnes

11-03-2004, 04:04 PM

How is this a "stronger America"?!
9/11 happened on Bush's watch and the economy tanked on Bush's watch.
That's great work W.

And the world began and you were born on 1/1/2001.

All those attacks on America during the Clinton Admin just didn't happen right? And Carter didn't almost destroy this country (and Europe too). Get a clue!

(Yeah, all those Soviet military personnel and equipment we were observing when I was flying mission there in 1979 were our imagination) If it were not for Reagan you people would be a radioactive crater!

OooRah! Praise the Lord and Pass the Amunition!

ClifRa JOnes

11-03-2004, 04:05 PM

"the Marine barracks"

Reagan

When you get simple facts like that wrong...

And he didn't retaliate. Biggest mistake he ever made!

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 04:18 PM

"the Marine barracks"

Reagan

When you get simple facts like that wrong...

my mistake, I was referring to the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi that killed 19 servicemen.

2/1993 Bombing of World Trade Center; 6 killed.

10/1993 Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1994 Investigation of the WTC bombing reveals that it was only a small part of a massive attack plan that included hijacking a plane and crashing it into CIA headquarters

6/1996 Truck bomb explodes outside Khobar Towers military complex in Saudi Arabia; 19 American servicemen killed, hundreds of others injured.

SeÃ±or Stino

11-03-2004, 04:18 PM

An EU super power or a China super power. Wow that may be the case, seeing how China has more people in it's army then we have people in our country.

Why again would that matter? I welcome another super power to take some of the burden off America. I'm sure the EU and China would be more than willing to go into places like the Sudan, Liberia, etc.... and settle the situations.

Sadly enough, it's people like you (Kerry supporters) who hope that America will one day not be the strongest country in the world and that we will not be a free land. To you I say.. GET FUCKED and EAT A FAT DICK. America will always prevail, just like the Jews have for ages. Take your propaganda home and cry all night for Kerry and Osama, today is a party for 4 MORE YEARS OF A STRONG AMERICA!!!! USA! USA! USA!

I suppose you've never read history books, but I will explain to you in a simple way, people do not HOPE that one day the USA will not be the "strongest" country in the world, it is a FACT

and yes, China will take that role in the future, and that future is not that far off (like 15 years, ...)

In this world it always has been a simple coming and going of "superpowers" , the hegomony of the Common Wealth in the PAct Britanica, or later of the USA in the Pact Americana is bound to end someday (and the PNAC will not avoid that:-) )

I hope Bush will make your life safe for four more years, because he REALLY DOES ! :o

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 04:19 PM

"the Marine barracks"

Reagan

When you get simple facts like that wrong...

My mistake, I was referring to the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi that killed 19 servicemen.Here are some better facts for you under Clinton.
HOWEVER, let me say this: I don't blame Clinton and I do not wish to point fingers.

2/1993 Bombing of World Trade Center; 6 killed.

10/1993 Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1994 Investigation of the WTC bombing reveals that it was only a small part of a massive attack plan that included hijacking a plane and crashing it into CIA headquarters

6/1996 Truck bomb explodes outside Khobar Towers military complex in Saudi Arabia; 19 American servicemen killed, hundreds of others injured.

8/1998 Bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa; 224 killed including 12 Americans

10/2000 Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S.

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 04:22 PM

I suppose you've never read history books, but I will explain to you in a simple way, people do not HOPE that one day the USA will not be the "strongest" country in the world, it is a FACT

and yes, China will take that role in the future, and that future is not that far off (like 15 years, ...)

In this world it always has been a simple coming and going of "superpowers" , the hegomony of the Common Wealth in the PAct Britanica, or later of the USA in the Pact Americana is bound to end someday (and the PNAC will not avoid that:-) )

I hope Bush will make your life safe for four more years, because he REALLY DOES ! :o

If Americans elect a liberal and we start to loose our stature in the world as the #1 super power, I don't see it being China. The responsibilites to the world include helping the entire WORLD. China looks after China.

EF shhhh Hutton

11-03-2004, 05:06 PM

it's a party in this thread! ALL HAIL THE CHIEF, MR. BUSH..aka "Our Fearless leader."

Hey, it's better than Kerry.....aka "Mr Lambert Field/Manny Ortiz."

SeÃ±or Stino

11-03-2004, 05:12 PM

If Americans elect a liberal and we start to loose our stature in the world as the #1 super power, I don't see it being China. The responsibilites to the world include helping the entire WORLD. China looks after China.

if i'll ever need an example again to explain to someone what the meening of naive is, i'll use this quote :-), thanks

once again, electing a republican will NOT, i repeat NOT help you to sustain your status of hegemony in this world, it WILL come to an end soon, that has to do with economics and global power, not with the party of the american president

ASsman

11-03-2004, 05:14 PM

Oh god, this is a piss hole. Let's all wallow in your ignorance you sons of bitches.

Funny thing is, if this was a conservative site... You would all (more than likely) be banned right now. Heh, that is very funny indeed. Pig fuckers.

Yaumama

11-03-2004, 05:19 PM

All I have to say is this How do you like them apples Rolling Stone! I hope now you realize you can't pressure people to vote for who you want by using the media, you onesided liberal a-holes. :D

ASsman

11-03-2004, 05:21 PM

FUCKING ASSHOLES! I knew they had an agenda. Unlike the rest of our biased ass news corporation. Ignorant fuck.

EF shhhh Hutton

11-03-2004, 07:41 PM

just sit back and enjoy the next 4 years...it'll be ok...trust me.

Ace42

11-03-2004, 07:45 PM

just sit back and enjoy the next 4 years...it'll be ok...trust me.

Yah, because spastics are well known for their ability to forecast world events...

EF shhhh Hutton

11-03-2004, 07:57 PM

look on the bright side....at least Kerry isn't in office. (Gotta be happy sometime, right? Don't kill yourself over this ,essey)

chcheckitout

11-03-2004, 07:57 PM

just sit back and enjoy the next 4 years...it'll be ok...trust me.

another 4 years of anger, another 4 years of stupidity, another 4 years of death... how are we going to enjoy that?

OH YEAH- he's reinstating the draft.
ENJOY!

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 08:08 PM

another 4 years of anger, another 4 years of stupidity, another 4 years of death... how are we going to enjoy that?

OH YEAH- he's reinstating the draft.
ENJOY!

Actually the Dems. were the ones that introduced a bill to reinstate the draft. You can thank me and the Republicans for saving you from the draft.

endofmystump

11-03-2004, 08:11 PM

All this talk of Europeans and other nations not investing in America...that is not coming from a business person. No one buys more American real estate than German investors. Why? B/c they can't get those kind of returns in Europe: high labor costs, socialism, high unemployment, ridiculous taxation. No one buys more US debt than Asian governments and banks. Why? B/c they want to keep their currencies artificially low against ours so they can continue to export cheap goods and we can keep buying our inexpensive Walkmen, tvs, etc. Middle Easterners buy all kinds of US real estate and invest in both private and public equity over here. Why? B/c their economies suck except for oil and they invest here to make money. These trends will continue b/c we are the leading economy in the world. However we have high labor costs and litigation that makes it expensive to do business here, so business will continue to shift to India and China where labor is much cheaper and litigation is virtually nonexistent. However, the American consumer will benefit and so will American business as it decreases its costs and remains competitive in a more and more international, open business market. The US will continue to lead the world until maybe China takes the reigns. As pointed out in an earlier post, that is the natural order. No one stays on top forever. We certainly won't prolong our reign through protectionism and closing our markets. Look what this has done to Germany, France and states in the US w/ strong unions, ie Ohio. May capitalism and democracy continue. Our Revolution was the Shot Heard Round the world that motivated the French Revolution and served as a role model and ideal for all the other nations in the world. The world becomes freer and standards of living increase by nations copying our success. Of course we are not perfect. Bush's people understand how to keep markets open and give American businesses the freedom they need to succeed. This in turns leads to the success of the American people.

All-Trac

11-03-2004, 08:15 PM

if i'll ever need an example again to explain to someone what the meening of naive is, i'll use this quote :-), thanks

once again, electing a republican will NOT, i repeat NOT help you to sustain your status of hegemony in this world, it WILL come to an end soon, that has to do with economics and global power, not with the party of the american president

I'll do the same for your post when I'm showing what an America hater sounds like. It's not the REP that will save our country it's a matter of standards and an unwillingness to give control of our country and troops over to the US hating UN and EU.

My post was to explain to you that being a super power normally evolves because of a countries interests around the globe and it's ability to reach across the globe. China so far tends to stay within itself and it's region. (note Korean penninsula).

ASsman

11-03-2004, 08:53 PM

Heheh, that'll be the last I hear from you.

ALLTRAC

11-03-2004, 10:09 PM

Guys they are attempting to shut me up for sticking up for America. They've already banned my accounts and my IP. However, my knowledge of technology is more than they can handle. Instead of telling EVERYONE to cool it, I've been told I'm a racist bigot Ass hole and they want to shut me up. Here are the reasons I had to post with such fury today, these people hate America. At least we have BUSH for 4 more years.

===Censorship===
Your reasons 4 banning me are non sense and you know it: Look at these posts and tell me, an American, that I don't have a right to respond with the same rage these people use. Sorry to all my supporters, I've been silenced by "THE MAN". The hypocricy of Liberals censoring Free speech is enough of an argument for me to leave on. The good side is that these people don't decide our elections and ===W'04=== is a REALITY.

Fuck Bush, he's a fiscal liberal..."

"and have your country folk murdered by disgruntled foreigners"

"American shit... "

"Every single death in the US caused by a criminal is your fault, because Bush's policies suck. Every death casued by terrorism is your fault, because Bush antagonises them. Every single piece of misery that happens in your country, is your fault. So enjoy the shit sandwich of your own construction"

"The American people must now deal with the consequences for voting this man again. In the next 4 years, the USA will be hurt again and no-one but yourselves will be to blame. I despise Bush, and everything he represents"

"No skin off my nose, idiots like you always kill themselves sooner or later. Or piss off arabs enough to get them to do it for you."

"You are wrong, you will stay wrong, you will die wrong, and it will probably be sooner rather than later. And it will probably be less painful than you deserve."

"Sorry, but these people who did NOT seize the opportunity to get Bush out when they had the chance have as much blood on their hands"

"Shut the fuck up, and join the KKK or something. Be pro-active, white trash"

O fuck off u childish buffoon. Bush is a CRIMINAL.

Also, I hope he attacks SOMETHING. Else his credibility will take a plunge. Bush wouldn't like that. Losing Public Enemy #1.

Bin Laden asks, if we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?"

"DIE AMERICA"

ASsman

11-03-2004, 10:28 PM

However, my knowledge of technology is more than they can handle.
Meh, they could just keep banning you. But you would keep re-registering, like some child. I guess they don't want to play the ,"Yes you are" "No Im not game".
Go find a coloring book or something.

Ace42

11-03-2004, 10:31 PM

Meh, they could just keep banning you. But you would keep re-registering, like some child. I guess they don't want to play the ,"Yes you are" "No Im not game".
Go find a coloring book or something.

More likely, they don't want to get heavy, or they are off doing something more important. It is quite easy for them to globally ban the IP address (or even whole range) to prevent access to the webserver. Then he can't even get to the sign-up page.

Or they could block E-mail addies from his domain, although that is lengthy and annoying.

However, more likely than not, they are giving him several chances, so that when they go to his ISP and say "He has been abusing our service, which is against our terms of service (TOS)" they will have no choice but to black-list him.

Which will be amusing, as I do not think his dad would be pleased that he can't use the internet anymore.

ALLTRAC

11-03-2004, 10:45 PM

More likely, they don't want to get heavy, or they are off doing something more important. It is quite easy for them to globally ban the IP address (or even whole range) to prevent access to the webserver. Then he can't even get to the sign-up page.

Or they could block E-mail addies from his domain, although that is lengthy and annoying.

However, more likely than not, they are giving him several chances, so that when they go to his ISP and say "He has been abusing our service, which is against our terms of service (TOS)" they will have no choice but to black-list him.

Which will be amusing, as I do not think his dad would be pleased that he can't use the internet anymore.

Dude, grow up. they already banned my IP. I've re-registeed only once. I'm logging on through a proxy in Brazil right now. I would guess the only kid here is you or maybe you're an out of work high-tech employee in a soup line. HAHAHA

Anyway, I'm out. It's like pissing in the wind talking to you people. You have no clue about this country and you are ignorant to the realities of this world.

Ace42

11-03-2004, 10:49 PM

ALLTRAC

11-03-2004, 11:20 PM

I assume that post is aimed at me, due to the close proximity to his previous post, and me answering assman's point. In which case, I am amused. Obviously he did not understand me saying "you can join your other nick on my ignore list"

A Bush supporter with a flawed grasp on the English language? Hyuck! Who'd've thunk it?

"But Daddy, you told me after Bush got into power, people wouldn't hate me anymore!"

That's right, I'm the boogie man. Close your eyes and plug your ears cry for mommy and I'll go away. Sad................ "But Mommy, we told those mean ol' Americans Bush was bad. What happened???????? Don't they know we Europeans know what's best for them and the world? Hold me mommy!"""

A7BGrl

11-04-2004, 12:44 AM

Everyone who voted for Bush between the ages of 18 and 34 should go and register NOW for the army, navy, airforce or marines.

When Bush, who you and/or your parents elected, insistutes the draft, you all should already be there (war) so that the people who DIDNT vote for this wacko dont have to go off to war if they dont choose to.

Go on, inlist. Hurry.

SobaViolence

11-04-2004, 01:03 AM

kill'em all and let God sort'em out.

baltogrl71

11-04-2004, 07:23 AM

Stem cell research has not done anything for us yet. Killing a baby is wrong, if you have sex and make a baby, don't murder the baby. Abortion is wrong except in cases of rape,and when the mothers life is in danger.I'll tell all the cancer patients who have been saved by stem cell surgery that and then I will tell all the diabetics to give up when I'm done(and yes stem cell research probably does hold the cure for diabetes) And abortion in the first tri mester is not a baby no heart no brain no baby!

drobertson420

11-04-2004, 07:45 AM

Look at all the losers: bin Laden, George Soros, MoveOn.org, Randi Rhoades, Hollywood, old Europe, the United Nations, MTV, liberalism, the mainstream media,Air-America, Dan Rather, Bruce Springsteen, and terrorists everywhere.
WE WON!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

hellojello

11-04-2004, 07:50 AM

the mainstream media
yea, right. i bet rupert murdoch is absoloutly shattered right now.

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 07:51 AM

What's done is done. No good complaining now. We can bitch as much as we like about the President with the lowest IQ in a century (fact Bush's is exactly half of Clintons 91-182) the fact is he's in and that's that I'm afraid.

Hold on to your hats people, this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

"Four More Years" of East-West hostility here we come.

ASsman

11-04-2004, 07:57 AM

I say we lynch them whites!

Ace42

11-04-2004, 08:27 AM

What's done is done. No good complaining now. We can bitch as much as we like about the President with the lowest IQ in a century (fact Bush's is exactly half of Clintons 91-182) the fact is he's in and that's that I'm afraid.

I find it hard to believe that Clinton has a 182 IQ. VERY hard.

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 08:37 AM

I find it hard to believe that Clinton has a 182 IQ. VERY hard.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm

True or not bush is still a dumbass!

drobertson420

11-04-2004, 09:07 AM

I find it hard to believe that Clinton has a 182 IQ. VERY hard.

That would put him closer to the "Insane" category. :D

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 09:15 AM

To be honest I find it difficult to name any politician who isn't insane no matter what their IQ!

Jasonik

11-04-2004, 09:24 AM

I heard that based on the militry competency test that both Kerry and Bush took, it could be surmised that Bush was a few points higher in I.Q. than Kerry. When presented with this, Kerry replied, "I must have been drunk." :D

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 09:27 AM

Bush probably got a friend to do his while he did coke in the bathroom!
Right before he got caught drunk driving. :p

drobertson420

11-04-2004, 09:39 AM

To be honest I find it difficult to name any politician who isn't insane no matter what their IQ!
Good Point...

ehill320

11-04-2004, 09:44 AM

At least he knows how to party! Party on W!

I'm amazed at everyone on this thread...for Dem's who are supposed to love everyone and are looking for world peace, there's sure is a lot of hate. And for the Rep's who are supposed to be religious...I can't figure it out.

trÃ©sbienfem

11-04-2004, 09:44 AM

Jesus, do ANY of you morons EVER read history?

ha. indeed.

trÃ©sbienfem

11-04-2004, 09:48 AM

I'm amazed at everyone on this thread...for Dem's who are supposed to love everyone and are looking for world peace, there's sure is a lot of hate. And for the Rep's who are supposed to be religious...I can't figure it out.

although I can see why you would make that comment, the arrogance of some people (whatever side you may be on) brings out anger in the other. I'm shocked that I'm even going to say this, but why don't some of you republicans take an example from your dear W's victory speech and realize since he is now president it's time to unfiy this people instead of dividing them further?

there are moronic, arrogant, ignorant people, ...both democrat and republican. It's those people that will especially get the hate because they make no valid arguements or points. Instead, they just make a lot of stupid comments and bullshit.

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 09:49 AM

This is personally for Mr "Oil tycoon/Religion is paramount" Bush and all his rich buddies who claim to be religious:

Matthew 19:16-26 "Now a man came up to Yeshua and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Yeshua replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Yeshua replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Yeshua answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Yeshua said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Yeshua looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.""

WORD!

Jasonik

11-04-2004, 09:53 AM

AMEN

Horray for God!

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 09:56 AM

I'm actually Atheist but that paragraph sums up quite a lot!

I doubt the boy Bush will be meeting St Peter at the pearly gates!

ehill320

11-04-2004, 10:03 AM

although I can see why you would make that comment, the arrogance of some people (whatever side you may be on) brings out anger in the other. I'm shocked that I'm even going to say this, but why don't some of you republicans take an example from your dear W's victory speech and realize since he is now president it's time to unfiy this people instead of dividing them further?

their are moronic, arrogant, ignorant people, ...both democrat and republican. It's those people that will especially get the hate because they make no valid arguements or points. Instead, they just make a lot of stupid comments and bullshit.

I hear ya! And both Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry told their supporters that we need to stop this hate and unite. Just like you said, it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican...we all need to give a little and try to understand the wishes of the "other side".

Have your beliefs...that's fine...no one wants to take that away from you. But we ALL need to try to figure out what's wrong with this country and that doesn't mean blame the other side. America is the best country in the world and we ALL need to work to keep it that way.

And for those of you who are so upset with the politics in America that you are considering moving away...at least there is a political process in the US!

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 10:05 AM

America is the best country in the world.

How do you come to that conclusion?

ehill320

11-04-2004, 10:06 AM

How do you come to that conclusion?

Because I was born and raised here! But I've also had the opportunity to live overseas and I'll take the US any day.

ASsman

11-04-2004, 10:09 AM

Im not getting into this shit again. I already have.
http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=37293

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 10:10 AM

Because I was born and raised here! But I've also had the opportunity to live overseas and I'll take the US any day.

Well if you were born and raised there it must be true!

I was born and raised in the UK but I would never have the arrogance to proclaim my country the best in the world. There is too much else to see for that kind of talk!
Of course yes your country is the richest and most powerful on earth and there are more flavours of M&M's than anywere else but untill every country has been visited my friend you can't say which is the best.

I've been to the US on a few occasions and while I enjoyed my time there the far east is a much nicer place!

ehill320

11-04-2004, 10:18 AM

Well if you were born and raised there it must be true!

I was born and raised in the UK but I would never have the arrogance to proclaim my country the best in the world.
Of course yes your country is the richest and most powerful on earth and there are more flavours of M&M's than anywere else but untill every country has been visited my friend you can't say which is the best.

I've been to the US on a few occasions and while I enjoyed my time there the far east is a much nicer palce!

Yet another great thing about FREEDOM...I can believe any damn thing I choose. I'm sure you don't have a problem with that. I'm sure if I talk to people from 100 different countries, I'll find someone in all of them that think their country is the best. It's called loyalty and personal preference. Surely these are things practiced even in Liverpool.

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 10:22 AM

ehill320

11-04-2004, 10:30 AM

What the hell has what I said got to do with freedom?

My point is that you can't really say Burger King is best if you've never eaten at McDonalds. (Not that I'd eat at either) :D

I understand national pride that is not what I was getting at.
Yes I love my City and my country but still think others are better than mine.
There seems to be an american culture of "Everyone wants to be like us".

They Don't.

It would be one thing if I said YOU had to think that the US is the best country in the world...but I'm not arrogant, so I would never say or imply that.

Coincidently, I've been to the UK on several occasions and it's a lovely country...I still happen to think the US is the best.

Wanna M&M? How 'bout a cheeseburger?

Gazrock

11-04-2004, 10:32 AM

Wanna M&M? How 'bout a cheeseburger?

Nah, Tea and Scones for me.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 10:34 AM

What's up with the mouse?

Ace42

11-04-2004, 10:45 AM

Yet another great thing about FREEDOM...I can believe any damn thing I choose.

So in your case, freedom is the right to say that 2 + 2 = 5?

Americans... Pshaw. Orwell would be turning in his grave.

laserx54

11-04-2004, 10:48 AM

George W is a fake christian

ehill320

11-04-2004, 11:07 AM

So in your case, freedom is the right to say that 2 + 2 = 5?

Americans... Pshaw. Orwell would be turning in his grave.

Personal preferences not arithmetic...dumbass. Surely you can tell the difference? Or can you?

Care for an M&M?

pshabi

11-04-2004, 11:10 AM

Here's a big fuck you for being a big fuck (pshabi's I just got off your momma voice).

and to Michael Moore, Dan Rather, NY Times, Washington Post And ALL Liberal Media :

Here's a big fuck you for all you lies, bullshit and propaganda. Your candidate was so poor he had a net loss of about 6 million votes from Al Gore.

FOUR MORE YEARS

Pull up a chair and "Ch ch ch ch check it out" (Chris Tucker FRIDAY voice)

ASsman

11-04-2004, 11:10 AM

Heh, AGAIN WITH THAT ARGUMENT! Jesus Christ!
Also you obviously didn't understand what he meant.

Also Hitler ha a personal preferences, and guess what it was.

Space

11-04-2004, 11:11 AM

we are all one under the sun.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 11:15 AM

Heh, AGAIN WITH THAT ARGUMENT! Jesus Christ!
Also you obviously didn't understand what he meant.

Also Hitler ha a personal preferences, and guess what it was.

Are you comparing me to fucking hitler? because I have a personal preference?

ASsman

11-04-2004, 11:19 AM

God, you will never get it. Forget it I quit. If you wish to see what I mean, or meant.
http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=37293

Ace42

11-04-2004, 11:35 AM

Personal preferences not arithmetic...dumbass. Surely you can tell the difference? Or can you?

Buh, way to miss the point. Politics isn't a fucking t-shirt. It's not like picking if you want your hair long or short. It's a science (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=political%20science) and as such saying "I'm free to believe what I want! And what I believe isn't based in fact!" is as dumb as saying 2+2=4.

Get a fucking clue. 100,000 people dead in Iraq because of your "personal preference" - asshole.

EF shhhh Hutton

11-04-2004, 11:58 AM

Liberals are a strange bunch...they want to come off as peace loving individuals but instead they slash tires, name call, and bad mouth the superior and victorious Republicans...

Hey we won....get on board and support Bush or LEAVE. Go to Canada or Guam. Population is getting too large anyway. Bye bye now. ::waving at monitor::

ASsman

11-04-2004, 11:59 AM

Fascist. Hypocrite. Douche Bag.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 12:02 PM

Get a fucking clue. 100,000 people dead in Iraq because of your "personal preference" - asshole.

Speaking of getting a fucking clue. You're assuming that I'm even in favor of the war. Why don't you get the facts prior to launching an all out assault on my personal fucking preferences.

Just cause I believe in America don't ever assume that you know what my god damn preferences are. My personal preferences right now are about kicking you in the balls and bitch slapping you mother for allowing you to buy a computer.

So get a fucking clue BEFORE you try to tie me to the war in Iraq. Fucking moron.

Ace42

11-04-2004, 12:14 PM

Speaking of getting a fucking clue. You're assuming that I'm even in favor of the war. Why don't you get the facts prior to launching an all out assault on my personal fucking preferences.

Just cause I believe in America don't ever assume that you know what my god damn preferences are. My personal preferences right now are about kicking you in the balls and bitch slapping you mother for allowing you to buy a computer.

So get a fucking clue BEFORE you try to tie me to the war in Iraq. Fucking moron.

Sorry, didn't Bush say "if you're not for us, you're against us" ? You just said you weren't against them... So...

"I'm against war, but for the people who wage wars!"

Retard.

Whois

11-04-2004, 12:17 PM

EF shhhh Hutton

11-04-2004, 12:27 PM

sticks & stones will break my bones and names will always hurt me.

::dennis Miller laugh:::

SCOREBOARD!

ehill320

11-04-2004, 12:30 PM

Sorry, didn't Bush say "if you're not for us, you're against us" ? You just said you weren't against them... So...

"I'm against war, but for the people who wage wars!"

Retard.

Just as you said politics IS a science and it's more than just what's happening in Iraq. Shit, Kerry himself said that he still would have gone to war...just differently than Bush. So am I to assume that you were a Dean supporter right? And you didn't vote for either Bush or Kerry right? So if you did vote for Kerry...you're a war-monger also because he voted to give the authorization of force. Or as you would put it, the authorization to wage war. So both of our candidates are people who would wage war. Actually now that I think about it, Clinton went into Kosovo right? War-monger! But you probably didn't vote for him either.

ASsman

11-04-2004, 12:34 PM

Amber Ford

11-04-2004, 12:41 PM

Gosh errr we err ahh safr country hyuck cuz my ma and pa says so. Dumb asses we had the chance to have someone that was willing to exaust every communication ability at our disposal before going to war. We had the chance to elect someone that might of been able to bridge gaps rather than blowing them up. And what is the real kicker is you are supporting the death of more than 1050 U.S men and women and counting dying because they were lied to. 9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq yet you still don't see through the veil of lies. There were no weapons of mass destruction, our allies are not with us like they use to be, our economy sucks, our elders are getting fucked from both sides with the irresponsibility of S.S and the magical medicare bill and all you can talk about is Super Power bull shit. There are still families that have not been appeased in any way for the death of someone they loved on 9-11 because everyone turned their backs on them and went after Saddam. If we need to liberate people maybe we shouldn't kill about 100 thousand of their civillians and maybe we should go to a country that really needs us right now like Sudan becsause the government there is supporting a genocide of a whole race. Nobody cares there is to much oil money invested in the Sudan government. Please learn before you speak I would love to think that some Bush supporters have brains but I have yet to find some of those people.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 12:42 PM

He's English you fucking moron.

Oh yeah, that's come up in our conversation. I missed that fact when he was spouting off at the mouth about...

"Sorry, didn't Bush say "if you're not for us, you're against us" ? You just said you weren't against them... So..."

And what's up with you answering for him? He can't answer himself? Are his computer privileges up for the night or something?

Are you the English spokesAssman? Uh moron?

Whois

11-04-2004, 12:44 PM

sticks & stones will break my bones and names will always hurt me.

::dennis Miller laugh:::

SCOREBOARD!

It's sad that Dennis lost his edge, I wish he would go back into comedy.

ASsman

11-04-2004, 12:45 PM

You sound like a child. You angry because my sister beat you up? Or something? Jesus, grow up and get over it.

Ace42

11-04-2004, 12:50 PM

Just as you said politics IS a science and it's more than just what's happening in Iraq.

So, what is more important that breaching international law, which resulted in 100,000 deaths. Be warned, any answer that doesn't result in the utmost misery, suffering, and widespread death of at least 100,000 people *WILL* make you an inhumane asshole.

But you probably didn't vote for him either.

So far I have had a 100% success rate in not voting for people who have waged illegitimate wars. It's not that hard, all you have to do is use your "conscience" - you know, that little voice in your head that even backwards kids have?

Tompz

11-04-2004, 12:57 PM

I kinda get the feeling you americans are digging a hole, that you'll eventually will fall into. I know you can do better, and i think you are gonna have to prove that.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 01:02 PM

He's English you fucking moron. Also are you trying to say because Kerry wasn't much different, Bush is good? Or that anything he says or does is fine as long as someone else has said something similar? Just shutup, the hole is quite deep enough for you.

Stick this in your HOLE, ASSman - rather fitting.

If you want to talk about my position on the war, lets.

It was wrong to go to war with out the support of the UN. It was necessary to deal with Sadam, now I'm not saying war was the way to handle it but at the same time the UN wasn't getting anything resolved either.

To look back and have these opinions now is easier than it was when the decision was made. And that's assuming that we know everything that's going on with the government and foreign relations for that matter.

And I'm sure that everyone on this "Beastie Boys" website has the unquestioned knowledge of the events that led to war, right? I mean we all know more than our government.

If you disagree, disagree. Don't try to tell me that you know more than our government does about US Security, Foreign Relations or even the boogyman.

Now, I'm not sure if Kerry would have been able to pull us out of this or not...and that was his problem. He didn't have a succinct plan on how to accomplish what he said he was going to do. And that's why he lost.

Ace42

11-04-2004, 01:10 PM

To look back and have these opinions now is easier than it was when the decision was made. And that's assuming that we know everything that's going on with the government and foreign relations for that matter.

I had these opinions before hand, as did Noam Chomsky. Ten YEARS before. How did we know these things? It's called "research" - try it. It takes a bit of time, but you actually get to discover "truth" rather than hearing people talk codshit at you.

And I'm sure that everyone on this "Beastie Boys" website has the unquestioned knowledge of the events that led to war, right? I mean we all know more than our government.

In the UK we had the "Butler report" - and official parliamentary investigation into the intelligence the UK went to war on. I have seen this, I have read this. I know EXACTLY what my government knew. It was a farcical joke, and very different to the case that was presented to the nation by Blair and Bush. Infact, it only said *WHAT WE ALL FUCKING KNEW ANYWAY* - this is why we were "vindicated" rather than "proved wrong."

If you disagree, disagree. Don't try to tell me that you know more than our government does about US Security, Foreign Relations or even the boogyman.

The US government (and to a lesser extent the UK one, although the Butler report is an exception) has an obligation to release files to the public, and does so regularaly. These documents show us exactly what was going on, and they tell us that you are a naive fuck if you think stupid hicks like Bush knew more than we do.

If you think the government knew more than we did - HOW COME WE WERE RIGHT AND THEY WERE PROVEN CONCLUSIVELY WRONG TIME AND TIME AGAIN?!?

"It's just coincidence"

BS, it's called "objective analysis of the facts"

ehill320

11-04-2004, 01:19 PM

HOW COME WE WERE RIGHT AND THEY WERE PROVEN CONCLUSIVELY WRONG TIME AND TIME AGAIN?!?

"It's just coincidence"

BS, it's called "objective analysis of the facts"

If that's the case...I guess 59 million Americans are fucking stupid and just you on the Beastie Boys website know the truth, right?

And you serve on the UN. Because of your "objective analysis of the facts".

Ace42

11-04-2004, 01:23 PM

If that's the case...I guess 59 million Americans are fucking stupid

That is precisely what I have been saying. Actually 59mil is a very conservative estimate (pardon my pun) but anyway:

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=35796&highlight=bush+supporters+touch

What would YOU call persistantly believing something that you have seen proven to be objectively false, other than "stupid" ?

"Free" right? Because "objective fact" is synyonmous with "personal preference" right? Feh. Dipshit.

and just you on the Beastie Boys website know the truth, right?

Yeah, because believing facts that are objectively true, instead of lies which are proven false is just "buying into the conspiracy" right?

And you serve on the UN. Because of your "objective analysis of the facts".

Is this your version of the usual US UNPhobia?

ehill320

11-04-2004, 01:38 PM

Yeah, because believing facts that are objectively true, instead of lies which are proven false is just "buying into the conspiracy" right?

objectively true by who? The English? The Butler Report? The House of Commons?

Ace42

11-04-2004, 01:49 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=objectivity

External or material reality.

Really true as in "not false" - duh.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 01:55 PM

English teacher as well?

I have not had the opportunity to review the Butler Report but I will. And I will agree that we should have had the support of the UN...so there is no phobia there.

Ace42

11-04-2004, 01:59 PM

I have not had the opportunity to review the Butler Report but I will.

If you PM me an E-mail addy, I can send you a copy of it in .pdf format.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 02:08 PM

Actually that's the one I found. Thanks.

What are the backgrounds of the committee doing the review? Chilcot, Taylor, Butler, Mates and Inge? Actually, I just found their backgrounds on butlerreview.org.uk.

I'm interested to see what it says. However, from initial review it looks to only cover WMD's and Resolutions for them. Is there more to it?

Ace42

11-04-2004, 02:31 PM

I'm interested to see what it says. However, from initial review it looks to only cover WMD's and Resolutions for them. Is there more to it?

The background to the panel is quite interesting. Lord Butler is strongly affiliated with 10 downing street (The UK equivalent of the whitehouse) and thus if anything, biased FOR Blair.

The Committee was selected by Blair and his party, and from the very outset, Charles Kennedy (Leader of the Liberal Democrat party, what is generally considered to now be the opposition party after recent by-elections) decried it for its remit being way too narrow (only concentrating on WMDs, and ignoring many sensitive policy areas)

It DOES however, address what material the government had. So we can tally what Tony saw, up against what he SAID he saw (remember, this includes intelligence Bush saw, Tony didn't miss out on what Bush saw, and Tony didn't see things we didn't share with Bush - Bush has said as much himself) and what was presented to us as "an urgent and imminent threat"

Remember that this report is generally considered to be as much of a whitewash as the Hutton report (which the Butler inquiry in no small part discredits!) was.

ehill320

11-04-2004, 02:47 PM

Remember that this report is generally considered to be as much of a whitewash as the Hutton report (which the Butler inquiry in no small part discredits!) was.

You're quoting a report that has been discredited by another report? Sorry I don't follow? Which report do the English deem as the truth or as you put it objective truth? So if one discredits the other, is the divide in the UK among the populous as severe as the US?

I obviously don't spend enough time with English politics. Have you compared their findings to the 9/11 Commission Report?

By the way, I just read the post on "libel"...wow!

1 Point - Ace42

Ace42

11-04-2004, 02:56 PM

You're quoting a report that has been discredited by another report? Sorry I don't follow? Which report do the English deem as the truth or as you put it objective truth? So if one discredits the other, is the divide in the UK among the populous as severe as the US?

Ah, well... To explain, the Hutton report was an inquest into the death of Dr Kelly, who was a head research scientist into WMDs, who committed suicide after the government cancelled his pension (only a few years away IIRC) when they found out he was sharing his findings (That there were no WMDs in Iraq) with the BBC. Many heads rolled (BBC heads, etc) when the Hutton report (again, narrow in remit) stated that Dr Kelly acted unreasonably, and that there was no government pressure on him, etc.

It was no biggy, but it is worth pointing out that Lord Hutton also whitewashed a CID internal investigation into police corruption charges, saying the accusation against the police were "baseless" - despite several crown court judges and members of the judiciary describing the accused as "rotten to the core, the sort of corrupt institution you'd expect in a 3rd world bannana republic" or some such.

Butler merely shows what a crock Hutton was, although nobody (but the esteemed organ, Private Eye) really picked up on this.

I have some scans of the Hutton private-eye article that I can also e-mail if you are interested (these cannot be found online).

This does not mean that Butler is not a crock, merely that it might be a crock based around a tiny bit more truth than Hutton was.

I obviously don't spend enough time with English politics.

It doesn't really effect anyone. It is only of interest to us. And even then only a small proportion.

Have you compared their findings to the 9/11 Commission Report?

No, I only had a brief chance to scan that "Duelfer" CIA report where he finally agreed with every other person on the face of the Earth (Including Bush, Cheney, Condi, et al pre 9/11 when they were boasting about the sucess of their "containment" policy) that there were no WMDs in Iraq.

By the way, I just read the post on "libel"...wow!

See, those are the people we have to put up with here. It is pretty depressing. I was tempted to explain the intricacies of libel law, as he was so totally misinformed about it. However, that would've just confused him further, and he would've taken it (mistakenly) as an affirmation of his point.

drobertson420

11-04-2004, 10:39 PM

Whois

11-05-2004, 11:24 AM

Great, Now can we take Randi Rhoades off the Air?...Pleeease?
( Not that she's not smart, It's that she's so damn Grating....)

Only if they shoot Ann...

SobaViolence

11-05-2004, 05:20 PM

Hypestyle

11-05-2004, 06:09 PM

Millions. It was millions of evangelicals. All hoodwinked by this guy who presented himself as one of them. He's not one of them. President Bush's record, his political strategy, and his approach to the world all run contrary to a Christian testimony. And this is what really irks me the most about the Christian Right: they can see, with their own eyes, that little of Bush's actual record reflects their core values. Bush (actually, Karl Rove), however, brilliantly sold the president on three or four issues and had the president take up what seems to be a reasonable position on all three. Hammered the Democrats on "family values." And the Religious Right, hearing only these talking points, eagerly overlooked Bush's personal failings and the clear record of the worst president in modern history. It is entirely hypocritical for these people to run us over with their high horses while not holding Bush himself to their high standard. Bush could never be voted pastor of a church. Seriously, think about it. He'd never make it as pastor, but these people eagerly supported him for president. (n)

ASsman

11-05-2004, 06:10 PM

Thanks for the spam.

paulk

11-08-2004, 11:54 PM

why don't u read this speech by the "war-monger"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1972VVAW.html

That speech is from 1971. The ehill was referring to votes made in the past few years.

Any president who refuses to immediately pull all U.S. forces out of Iraq is a war-monger.

D_Raay

11-09-2004, 02:08 AM

Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Rosie Cotton

11-09-2004, 02:57 AM

and to Michael Moore, Dan Rather, NY Times, Washington Post And ALL Liberal Media :

Here's a big fuck you for all you lies, bullshit and propaganda. Your candidate was so poor he had a net loss of about 6 million votes from Al Gore.

FOUR MORE YEARS

Pull up a chair and "Ch ch ch ch check it out" (Chris Tucker FRIDAY voice)

And what do you call O'reilly? Besides a perv.

discopants

11-09-2004, 03:56 AM

I think the banjo music's stopped now.

Did you know that cannibals don't eat penis' cos they don't like their food getting bigger in ther mouths.

Female cannibals are always worried that their arses are too big to fit in the pan.

On a serious note, did you hear about the remote island that apologized for eating a missionary 200 years ago?

toreadore

11-09-2004, 05:44 AM

Damn I hate America. I thought I never was going to say or even think this as a moderate European, but your choice of leader has made me angry and militant:

You deserved 9-11!!!

Gazrock

11-09-2004, 06:34 AM

Damn I hate America. I thought I never was going to say or even think this as a moderate European, but your choice of leader has made me angry and militant:

You deserved 9-11!!!

WHAT!

You sick piece of shit! over 3,000 innocent people died that day! Just because the US has started an unjustified war does not mean thousands of Americans and the few hundred foreigners (mostly brits) deserved to die. Bush deserves to be locked up but to me death is never an answer to anything. Whether it be Iraqi, US or us brits a person dying is always felt by someone (family etc)
Yes I am well aware that the war started after the attacks but I see this as the principal reason for your outburst.

And Peter Schmiechel is a dick!

Ali

11-09-2004, 06:37 AM

Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny? this is the most intelligent comment on this whole thread.

drobertson420

11-09-2004, 07:21 AM

Only if they shoot Ann...
Deal!!!

toreadore

11-09-2004, 08:24 AM

WHAT!

You sick piece of shit! over 3,000 innocent people died that day! Just because the US has started an unjustified war does not mean thousands of Americans and the few hundred foreigners (mostly brits) deserved to die. Bush deserves to be locked up but to me death is never an answer to anything. Whether it be Iraqi, US or us brits a person dying is always felt by someone (family etc)
Yes I am well aware that the war started after the attacks but I see this as the principal reason for your outburst.

And Peter Schmiechel is a dick!

You're right, I'm sorry. Guess my NY vacation plans were ruined by that comment, my case is already processing in the CIA.

And yes, Peter Schmeichel is a dick but he's our dick!

(although I regret my outburst, it doesn't change my view that USA uses 9-11 as a Reichstags-fire)

Gazrock

11-09-2004, 08:39 AM

You're right, I'm sorry. Guess my NY vacation plans were ruined by that comment, my case is already processing in the CIA.

And yes, Peter Schmeichel is a dick but he's our dick!

(although I regret my outburst, it doesn't change my view that USA uses 9-11 as a Reichstags-fire)

I'd like to accept your apology but it really isn't my place to do so.

I just hope that next time you post you don't say anything as irrational or unthoughtful as that again.

Peace.

infidel

11-09-2004, 10:46 AM

Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?Q. What did the canibal do when he dumped his girlfriend?
A. Wiped his ass.

ASsman

11-09-2004, 10:58 AM

Damn I hate America. I thought I never was going to say or even think this as a moderate European, but your choice of leader has made me angry and militant:

You deserved 9-11!!!

If you go for the eye for an eye, it is hardly enough of a punishment. And Gazrock before you start crying, think of how many the US has murdered in the middle-east before you pass judgement.

SobaViolence

11-09-2004, 02:30 PM

100,000 since the occupation started and a million with a decade of sanctions

nice job, America.

Gazrock

11-10-2004, 03:36 AM

If you go for the eye for an eye, it is hardly enough of a punishment. And Gazrock before you start crying, think of how many the US has murdered in the middle-east before you pass judgement.

An eye for an eye is never the way to look at this. I agree that the US government has been completely out of line (as has ours) in going to the war but for you to say killing 3000 INNOCENT i repeat INNOCENT people is an not enough of a punishment your a lot sicker than I thought.
I'm as pissed off as anyone that most people don't pick up on the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi's that have been killed in this war and over tha past decade or so due to sanctions but when terrorists strike its not at Bush (or previously Clinton), his cronies or the leader of the government they have problems with, its at ordinary people like us (9/11, Madrid, beslan) who mostly disagree with whats going on. No innocent person ever deserves to die in a war they're not fighting in. Like those in Iraq or those who have been victims of terrorist strikes which come about because of the western attitude to the middle east.

I wonder what bush would have done whilst governer of texas to someone who had killed 100,000 people?!

Ace42

11-10-2004, 11:52 AM

killing 3000 INNOCENT i repeat INNOCENT people

It depends how you define "innocent" - they elected him, he is their representative, they didn't oust him even when it was put to the vote, let alone via a coup. They pay the taxes that buys the guns, they work in factories that make the ammo, they wave the flags that makes him think he can get away with it. The politicians, the soldiers, the consultants and policy advisors, the oil-companies. All made up of "innocent US citizens" - if the draft was reinstuted, they would all be military targets (proscribed under the Geneva conventions which the US flauts openly)

In the US more than anywhere (A country by the people, for the people) the average Joe in the street CANNOT divorce themselves from national policy.

I'm not condoning the WTC disaster, however compared to US acts of imperialism, it is very very very small potatoes. Oh, and "An eye for an eye" is both Islamic and US government policy.

Gazrock

11-11-2004, 06:15 AM

In the US more than anywhere (A country by the people, for the people) the average Joe in the street CANNOT divorce themselves from national policy

I'm sorry mate but that's bollocks. Are you saying that, for example, because I'm English if something were to happen to me due to the fact that I'm from England (and regretfully work in a government dept.) I just have to accept it even though I've never voted for Tony Blair or Labour?
You might as well say "tough luck people, I know you didn't vote him in but coz a load of other people did you just gotta stand there and take it in the ass without a whimper!"

Oh, and "An eye for an eye" is both Islamic and US government policy.

I am well aware that it is used on both sides of the fence. And as I said it's wrong to look at it in those terms. The east-west hostility will not begin to be resolved untill someone decides that "an eye for an eye" is the wrong way to go.
And unfortunately that aint gonna happen so long as there are egotistical power hungry people ruling the world is it?

As Ghandi said "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and he was one cool motherf*cker! Peace.

Ace42

11-11-2004, 01:18 PM

I'm sorry mate but that's bollocks. Are you saying that, for example, because I'm English if something were to happen to me due to the fact that I'm from England (and regretfully work in a government dept.) I just have to accept it even though I've never voted for Tony Blair or Labour?
You might as well say "tough luck people, I know you didn't vote him in but coz a load of other people did you just gotta stand there and take it in the ass without a whimper!"

That is how democracy works. If you don't like it, move to <insert whatever place Americans think people who disagree with the establishment should go to> Just because you didn't vote Blair, it doesn't mean that you create an equitable "no Blair zone" in your personal space which it suddenly becomes "more immoral" for terrorists to enter.

At which point would a voter become a valid military target?

When they voted for Blair?
What if they were pro Blair but anti-war?
When they didn't vote at all, but were all for the war.
When they are an arms dealer?
When they are the arms dealer's secretary?

Like it or not, Blair is lord and master of our country, *we* are the people who give him is power. To say "I'm not responsible" whilst giving him the means and the justification to do so is not rational, merely conveneant. As a wise man once said "democracy is just a way for the electorate to pass the buck" - like in the Simpsons where Kang rules all of Earth, and Homer says "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos"

You directly benefit from cheap oil (if not in terms of petrol, then in the plastics you use everywhere every day) and the high taxes on that cheap oil are what buy the guns that kill arab children.

Since when has "receving stolen goods" *not* made you guilty? Anyone who isn't *actively* fighting the system is aiding abetting. Even those of us who are, are unfortunately still propping the system up.

Gazrock

11-12-2004, 02:13 AM

That is how democracy works. If you don't like it, move to <insert whatever place Americans think people who disagree with the establishment should go to> Just because you didn't vote Blair, it doesn't mean that you create an equitable "no Blair zone" in your personal space which it suddenly becomes "more immoral" for terrorists to enter.

At which point would a voter become a valid military target?

When they voted for Blair?
What if they were pro Blair but anti-war?
When they didn't vote at all, but were all for the war.
When they are an arms dealer?
When they are the arms dealer's secretary?

Like it or not, Blair is lord and master of our country, *we* are the people who give him is power. To say "I'm not responsible" whilst giving him the means and the justification to do so is not rational, merely conveneant. As a wise man once said "democracy is just a way for the electorate to pass the buck" - like in the Simpsons where Kang rules all of Earth, and Homer says "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos"

You directly benefit from cheap oil (if not in terms of petrol, then in the plastics you use everywhere every day) and the high taxes on that cheap oil are what buy the guns that kill arab children.

Since when has "receving stolen goods" *not* made you guilty? Anyone who isn't *actively* fighting the system is aiding abetting. Even those of us who are, are unfortunately still propping the system up.

I still see myself as an innocent person and think that whether or not I directly benefit from cheap oil or not I can't see the reasoning behind "you were born in england, so if the country does anything your responsible too".

What if an Iraqi civilian doesn't assist US forces and they shoot him. Is he innocent or not? Or is he innocent because his country was under a dictator? So anyone in a democracy isn't an innocent party? Still, Saddam is gone so if your from Iraq and didn't try to get out or do something to overthrow him your not innocent and if you get shot tough shit? Ridiculous.

If what your saying is no matter what your political sway is or what your beliefs are and what opinions on your government are if your from a country that has problems with other countries you should expect a rough deal.
And you know its not as easy as "I'll just go and live in france because I think there policies are better than ours", and why should I have to leave my own country to gain some innocence from something I have had no direct part in.

Example:
I'm Liverpool fan, I go to matches and support the team. In the 1985 european cup final in heysel 39 people (38 italians and a Belgian) were killed when a wall collapsed largely due to Liverpool fans rioting. Now even though I wasn't there. Even though I condemn the actions of all the fans rioting. Because the money I have paid to see them play or the money I spent on a replica shirt contributes to liverpool being able to buy good players to win these trophies I should also see myself as responsible!?

Sorry mate that just aint gonna wash.

toreadore

11-12-2004, 02:35 AM

Example:
I'm Liverpool fan, I go to matches and support the team. In the 1985 european cup final in heysel 39 italians were killed when a wall collapsed due to Liverpool fans rioting. Now even though I wasn't there. Even though I condenm the actions of all the fans rioting. Because the money I have paid to see them play or the money I spent on a replica shirt contributes to liverpool being able to buy good players to win these trophies I should also see myself as responsible!?

Sorry mate that just aint gonna wash.

Jan Mølby is a fat dick!

Gazrock

11-12-2004, 02:59 AM

Jan Mølby has a fat dick!

I wouldn't know about that! haha - j/k.

Maybe he is, but as you previously said "He's our dick" especially because he speaks with a scouse accent!

Ace42

11-12-2004, 06:19 AM

I still see myself as an innocent person and think that whether or not I directly benefit from cheap oil or not I can't see the reasoning behind "you were born in england, so if the country does anything your responsible too".

Read what I said again, the words in it. "being born in England" was not a phrase I used. Anyone who was totally exempt from English society and economy would of course be "innocent" - but how many people do you think that is? "I'm against the crime, but for reaping the benefits of it" - that is not morally or ethically justified.

What if an Iraqi civilian doesn't assist US forces and they shoot him. Is he innocent or not? Or is he innocent because his country was under a dictator? So anyone in a democracy isn't an innocent party? Still, Saddam is gone so if your from Iraq and didn't try to get out or do something to overthrow him your not innocent and if you get shot tough shit? Ridiculous.

Firstly, it is not the Iraqis who are engaging in an illegal war in another country. He would be supporting war-crimes by aiding the US military like a quisling. Secondly, you cannot expect people under a dictator to be responsible for foreign policy - the hierachical system precludes this. The same CANNOT be said of a democracy. You might chose to consider Blair a "temporary dictator" while his tenure lasts, but I can assure you that is not the basis of democracy, and while that might be the case pragmatically, that is only because people have *chosen* to accept this. We, the people, give him power. If every person in the country just didn't listen to him, he would have NO power. So how can you say that "the people are innocent, it is him!" when if the people did not support him, he would be impotent. "I'm innocent because I am apathetic" is NOT a defence.

and why should I have to leave my own country to gain some innocence from something I have had no direct part in.

"Why should I have to leave my property if the other inhabitants are using it as a crackhouse?" - while that is a justified stance, put yourself in the jury seat and tell me how you'd treat someone busted in a room full of addicts. Now what if you are receiving (for legitimate services rendered) the money from the crack-deals? Only guy not mashed? His property? BANG, going down. Legally, just making the property available (or even just consenting to play a part, no matter how small or obscure) in a criminal activity counts as "conspiring to" and makes you liabel to prosecution.

"I'm not guilty, your honour, I just gave him the gun. I didn't make him kill anyone! I couldn't help it that he chose to pay me back with stolen money!"

Pshaw.

Example:
Sorry mate that just aint gonna wash.

Well, of course if you are going to use false analogies, you can poo-poo the logic. You pay to support the team, the team have no responsibility how the supporters act. You pay (taxes) to support the government. It is the government that has waged an illegal war.

Your analogy would only be accurate if I were implying that you were responcible for other voters, not for the government which we, as citizens, support.

Gazrock

11-12-2004, 06:47 AM

"Why should I have to leave my property if the other inhabitants are using it as a crackhouse?" - while that is a justified stance, put yourself in the jury seat and tell me how you'd treat someone busted in a room full of addicts. Now what if you are receiving (for legitimate services rendered) the money from the crack-deals? Only guy not mashed? His property? BANG, going down. Legally, just making the property available (or even just consenting to play a part, no matter how small or obscure) in a criminal activity counts as "conspiring to" and makes you liabel to prosecution.

So by this definition EVERY brit (or american or any person from a country at war) is accountable for the actions of it's military and responsible for the decisions its government makes? Nope still not buying that.
I happen to have been born in Liverpool, call it luck call it misfortune, whatever. But my political stance has always been one of tolerance of other cultures and strictly against violence of any type at any time. Now what you're saying is little old pacifist me is as responsible as angry "Jim Smith" with a rifle in his hand in Fallujah??? or even someone who supported the war?? hmmmm let me think.

Can't be bothered with you anymore to be honest mate. We're going around in circles. Your opinion is your opinion and so is mine. Yours seems to be one of "give up, your english deal with the terrorist threat and don't complain when it kills your mum coz she's english too" and mine is "If I don't support the war, I don't take part in the war, I don't deserve to die because of the war".
I know which opinion appeals more to me.

Peace.

Ali

11-12-2004, 06:54 AM

Can't be bothered with you anymore to be honest mate. We're going around in circles. Your opinion is your opinion and so is mine. yeah, but your opinion is WRONG, unlike old Student Grant (http://www.dur.ac.uk/pr.office/viz.jpg) who just HAS to be right.

drobertson420

11-12-2004, 07:03 AM

Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

They Don' eat Democrats because they taste like Ass... :D

Ace42

11-12-2004, 05:06 PM

Now what you're saying is little old pacifist me is as responsible as angry "Jim Smith" with a rifle in his hand in Fallujah??? or even someone who supported the war?? hmmmm let me think.

Depends on how you want to scale it. You could argue that merely having the opinion that is wrong makes you less culpable than someone who is repentent. However, since when has an armed-robber saying "Hey, I didn't want to shoot anyone, I just got the masks and waved the gun around (and was going to get a cut of the money) - I *TOLD* my derranged mate not to shoot anyone, BUT HE JUST HAD TO!" been a defence?

"If I don't support the war, I don't take part in the war, I don't deserve to die because of the war".

Since when has directly profitting from a war been "not taking part in it" ? Since when has directly supporting the institutions that allow the country to go to war been "not taking part in the war" ?

Gazrock

11-16-2004, 06:08 AM

Ace42, Let me ask you one last thing. Do you consider yourself innnocent?

And if so, why?

Ace42

11-16-2004, 06:37 AM

Ace42, Let me ask you one last thing. Do you consider yourself innnocent?

And if so, why?

As innocent as anyone who is part of a nation that perpetrates war-crimes can be. I certainly benefit from Iraqi oil being stolen by the government. I too eat food wrapped in plastic made from Iraqi oil. This PC is made from plastic stolen from the Iraqis. This war was faught to enable me to do so. So in that respect, certainly as guilty as the next man. However, unlike a lot of people who would argue they are innocent because they "didn't directly kill any arabs" - I have not allowed my inaction to make my complicit. Other than my unavoidable dependance on plastics, I do not own a car (Quite conceivably the most significant consumer of petro-chemicals) and I do not pay taxes which are used to buy weapons. I do not "support our boys over there" (which is supporting a group of murderers) and have taken part in numerous demonstrations and protests about the war. I have been in regular contact with my (anti-war) MP, I was on the radio, speaking out against the war before it started. I have been engaging with as many people as possible to ensure they know, in no uncertain terms, just how corrupt and evil this is.

It is not much (certainly not sufficient) so I would say that it provisionally makes me responsible for the actions that me and my countrymen allow to occur in our names. However, (in an admittedly meaningless way) I'd say by the same token, it is more than most people have done.

People who are more concerned with keeping the country ticking over, and don't *really* care what is going on over there, as long as it doesn't directly effect us.

Gazrock

11-16-2004, 07:47 AM

As innocent as anyone who is part of a nation that perpetrates war-crimes can be. I certainly benefit from Iraqi oil being stolen by the government. I too eat food wrapped in plastic made from Iraqi oil. This PC is made from plastic stolen from the Iraqis. This war was faught to enable me to do so. So in that respect, certainly as guilty as the next man. However, unlike a lot of people who would argue they are innocent because they "didn't directly kill any arabs" - I have not allowed my inaction to make my complicit. Other than my unavoidable dependance on plastics, I do not own a car (Quite conceivably the most significant consumer of petro-chemicals) and I do not pay taxes which are used to buy weapons. I do not "support our boys over there" (which is supporting a group of murderers) and have taken part in numerous demonstrations and protests about the war. I have been in regular contact with my (anti-war) MP, I was on the radio, speaking out against the war before it started. I have been engaging with as many people as possible to ensure they know, in no uncertain terms, just how corrupt and evil this is.

It is not much (certainly not sufficient) so I would say that it provisionally makes me responsible for the actions that me and my countrymen allow to occur in our names. However, (in an admittedly meaningless way) I'd say by the same token, it is more than most people have done.

People who are more concerned with keeping the country ticking over, and don't *really* care what is going on over there, as long as it doesn't directly effect us.

Whilst I respect the work you have done (and I imagine are still doing) with respect to this "terrorist" act our government has decided to undertake and refused to apologise for in Iraq I still don't think we should consider ourselves guilty.
Especially not as guilty as a member of public who doesn't give a shit whats going on over there or shouts " just kill all the arab b*stards" (something I've heard on many an occasion).
It is possible you're being to hard on yourself and by the same note other people similar to you (such as myself). Using the plastics that has come about from the oil from illegal wars is unavoidable, especially in this country.
I personally understand why (fundamentalist) Muslims are out for western blood, but I would genuinly dismayed (if i lived) if I was a target for terrorist action, as I totally agree with the fact that the west should basically just butt out of the rest of the worlds business unless help or assistance is genuinly required.

I know it stinks and there isn't much more we can do than Spread the word, trying to make as many people aware of what is actually happening, show our own personal resistance and obviously vote for a anti-war candidate etc.
Lets face it no matter what anyone says and no matter how many say it Blair is going to continue with this illegal war. And for some reason average Joe Public is still going to vote him in next year (and we call the americans stupid for re-electing bush and we're gonna put Baby Bush back in).

I'll never give up trying to persuade people that I think Socialism is the way to go, and that this war is 100% wrong but it is a bit like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in.

Cashew

11-16-2004, 09:18 AM

Good for your vote, my friends votes didn't count, we live in nebraska, voting liberal here is like throwing a wad of cotton at concrete, no matter how many times you do it, nothing changes.

He isn't fearless, he is a homophobe, and a xenophobe :)

Ace42

11-16-2004, 12:59 PM

(and we call the americans stupid for re-electing bush and we're gonna put Baby Bush back in).

Oddly enough, I have not come across a single (self-confessed) labour voter in my anti-war ranting. I have heard the typical pro-war sophistries from various MPs, etc. But curiously, the labour MP who I was conversing with on the radio was actually *ANTI* war from the get-go. I think it might've been because he was welsh-labour.

ASsman

11-16-2004, 04:27 PM

How gay.

Gazrock

11-17-2004, 01:47 AM

Oddly enough, I have not come across a single (self-confessed) labour voter in my anti-war ranting. I have heard the typical pro-war sophistries from various MPs, etc. But curiously, the labour MP who I was conversing with on the radio was actually *ANTI* war from the get-go. I think it might've been because he was welsh-labour.

I don't think for a second that all labour MP's were "up" for the war from the get-go. I imagine alot of them opposed it it just look at Robin Cook. But when your leader has got a case of blood lust you're not gonna change his mind!

I don't think anyone with an extensive political knowledge (sadly in the minority) or an anti war opinion will vote labour next year to be honest its more likely to be average Joe Public who will more than likely just either not vote at all or more likely think "who did I vote for last time, they'll do" either that or, more worringly, the BNP are gonna pick up a few more hundred thousand votes!

Who would you vote for if you don't mind me asking?

Ace42

11-17-2004, 02:52 AM

Currently I am a Lib Dem party member. Least I think I am... I may have allowed my membership to lapse. Having met several Lib Dem councillors, and a few MPs, constituency candidates, and various public notaries, I have found them to be among the best informed and most reasonable politically affiliated people around.

Also I am pleased about the multiplicity of viewpoints within the party. Unlike Labour, where the backbenchers are ignored, or the Tories who are all much of a muchness, you can be confident that your Lib Dem MP is your representative first, and a partisan official second.

I've always been fond of Charles Kennedy (I have always regarded him and Alex Salmond as two of the most straight up politicians in the public spotlight) and I am very fortunate, as Richard Young-Ross (my MP) is outstanding.

I think that, whereas before people were locked into the two-party mentality that has stung the US so badly (especially after over a decade of Tories) the terrible performance of Labour when they had an overwhelming majority has made people more open to alternatives to the traditional party. Unfortunately, it has led to greater voter apathy, and an inherant mistrust of politics. This is a shame, as unlike the other mainstream parties, I think the Lib Dems, while they might not always make popular (read: populist) decisions, will at least be honest and up-front about it. If anything, I'd put that fowards as a slogan for the general election "bringing honesty back to politics."

It is to this that I attribute the recent successes by the Lib Dems, which have seen them close the gap on the Tories to the point where they are almost, in effect, the opposition.

Another slogan could just as well be "The only credible party not to have betrayed public trust"

That might be unfair on the other lower parties, but personally I think you need a holistic political party, rather than a one-issue party such as BNP, UKIP or the greens.

While the BNP are absolute scumb-bag scoundrels, I do not think that many actually view them as credible, especially after the "whistleblower" documentary on them, where their racist ranting and criminal activities were exposed to the nation. Yes there are close-minded biggots who vote for them regardless, but unlike a lot of people who have duped (and who are more and more seeing sense, A la the old lady who was a candidate for them, and when she discovered their policies are based on lies and slanders, quit out of disgust) the aggresively racist support for them is a minority, one that I predict will go down.

As for UKIP, I think that there are a lot of cranks in their ranks (significantly Kilroy) who have totally undermined the reasonable workdone by a significant proportion of their candidates. One such candidate was on Question Time a few weeks back, and excepting their one key policy area (Europe) he seemed very reasonable and sensible.

As for the Greens, I thought they were a bunch of hippies until I actually talked to some of them, and while they (the ones I met) were over-emotive when it came to the subjects on hand (The war, it was an anti-war protest) it was clear that they do a lot of stirling work in the political arena, Mark Thomas stylee. It is a pity people are not more aware of their non-eco policies.

Gazrock

11-17-2004, 03:18 AM

I've always been fond of Charles Kennedy (I have always regarded him and Alex Salmond as two of the most straight up politicians in the public spotlight) and I am very fortunate, as Richard Young-Ross (my MP) is outstanding.

I think that, whereas before people were locked into the two-party mentality that has stung the US so badly (especially after over a decade of Tories) the terrible performance of Labour when they had an overwhelming majority has made people more open to alternatives to the traditional party. Unfortunately, it has led to greater voter apathy, and an inherant mistrust of politics. This is a shame, as unlike the other mainstream parties, I think the Lib Dems, while they might not always make popular (read: populist) decisions, will at least be honest and up-front about it. If anything, I'd put that fowards as a slogan for the general election "bringing honesty back to politics."

It is to this that I attribute the recent successes by the Lib Dems, which have seen them close the gap on the Tories to the point where they are almost, in effect, the opposition.

Another slogan could just as well be "The only credible party not to have betrayed public trust"

I must say although I don't think vote for them myself (although if it helps give tony the boot I may reconsider) they are by far the most appealing party out of "the big 3" we have over here. I'm happy to see that the conservatives have pretty much talked there way out of being in with a shout at the next general election (Michael Howard, HA!). Well they certainly wont be winning up here anytime soon, with or without Boris Johnson.As Liverpool is generally a Lib Dem city and has been for quite a while now.
It does, however, need a big push from Charles and the boys to try and mount a serious challenge.

BTW My Local MP is Labour (Claire Curtis-Thomas is the most expensive member of the house of commons) and for whatever reason is pretty popular round here although she does bugger all! But it is pretty middle-class where I am and the bourgeois do like the poshness of a double barrelled name!