Why the hell would anyone be a conservative?

[afronaut]

And why has the terms "liberal" and "progressive" become such bad words? Is it because conservatives are all fucking idiots? I mean really, who wants liberty and progress. I'd rather keep things how they are now instead of risking a better world!

Really, I'm asking all you conservatives on the board, that if you value what the hell this country was supposedly founded on, why the fuck would you ever subscribe to the idealogy of conservatism? I thought this country was founded on liberty, freedom, and progress? Not keeping your nation in a holding pattern, blindly clutching on to ignorant past, usually christian, "values" and culture.

From dictionary.com

Progressive:
Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods

Liberal:
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

Conservative:
Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

Yeah, anyway, I was just looking at some quotes about conservatism and I remembered my total confusion as to why anyone would actually call themselves a "conservative".

"A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time."
- Alfred E. Wiggam

"A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits."
-- Woodrow Wilson

"A conservative is someone who makes no changes and consults his grandmother when in doubt."
- Woodrow Wilson

"What is conservativism? Is it not the adherence to the old and tried against the new and untried?"
-Abraham Lincoln

"Conservatism discards Prescription, shrinks from Principle, disavows Progress; having rejected all respect for antiquity, it offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future."
-Benjamin Disraeli

"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
-John Kenneth Galbraith

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."
-John Stuart Mill

"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead."
-Leo C. Rosten

"Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
-Mignon McLaughlin

"Most liberals never lost sight of the potential for evil in big government. They have consistently opposed government power in matters of personal and political belief. Liberals are not unconcerned with economic liberty, but they have come to believe that the common good requires that social justice be given a higher priority than absolute economic freedom. Conservatives are—and always have been—on the other side of both questions. They are much more prone than liberals to limiting personal and political liberties, but they place the freedom of an individual to do as he pleases in the economic realm at the top of their concerns. Social justice has held a lower priority for conservatives, from the days of Alexander Hamilton when they favored strong government as a means of protecting their economic privileges to the days of Ronald Reagan when they see government as an instrument of social justice and therefore a threat to their economic position."
-Robert S. McElvaine

The only reason I can see for someone calling themselves a conservative is that their ma and pa were staunch conservatives, and that person doesn't know how make his own mind or progress and grow with new ideas.

I really fucking hate conservatism.

[ASsman]

There are different aspects of it. Social, economic etc. So you can't diss it all that simply. But as for Republicans.... Yes they are all idiots for supporting Bush.

[Jasonik]

"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
-Lenny Bruce

[marsdaddy]

If only it were so black and white. Clearly some people who consider themselves conservative voted for Kerry and vice-versa. The real culprit is age. As people get older, they generally get more conservative. Probably something psychological about fear of change as you age. I really don't understand it, though.

[bdavid]

You're trying to define conservative in a literal sense. I'm not sure if you're saying Republican=conservative mindset or simply that the two are the same thing.

Maybe some people consider themselves conservative because they're not too keen on the government collecting more and more tax money and redistributing the wealth 'for the good of all'. Or getting more and more involved in business affairs to promote 'the good of all'

I realize people have different views on the war and foreign policy and are under the impression that Bush is some sort of dictator. But if you're suggesting that being a 'liberal' for change sake should be everyone's view then that's sort of short sighted. I would argue that mostly, being liberal has less to do with morality & foreign policy but rather a long term shift toward communism. If you had 30 'liberal' presidents in a row eventually you'd have Stalin running the show and telling everyone they're too stupid to make they're own chioces, government running the businesses and 75% of your income taxed.

[Ace42]

If you had 30 'liberal' presidents in a row eventually you'd have Stalin running the show and telling everyone they're too stupid to make they're own chioces, government running the businesses and 75% of your income taxed.

Hyuck, I are a yank, and I hate the commies, buh!

Your argument is so monumentally misinformed, I do not know where to start picking it apart. What about:

1. Stalinism and Communism are not mutually inclusive.
2. Communism is not "the logicial conclusion of Socialism"
3. Communism and Totalitarianism are not mutually inclusive.

4. Communist states do not tend to have currencies, therefore there is no "income" to be divided.

Jeez, fucking hicks and there "we know all about communism, because Senator McCarthy told us it was bad, hyuck!"

[endofmystump]

It all comes back to the sickle and the hammer huh? Of course not that failed communist experiment called the USSR, but the whole concept, Marx. Ace42, you're too smart to really believe it. In 10 years you won't....

[Whois]

"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
-Lenny Bruce

"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1898

[EF shhhh Hutton]

Scoreboard! 4 more years! Fair & Square...partna!

[Jasonik]

"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1898
I love Twain. He has to be one of the best Americans next to Franklin.

"A radical thinks two and two makes five. A liberal is more conservative. he knows two and two make four, but he's unhappy about it."
-Herbert Prochnow

[Ace42]

It all comes back to the sickle and the hammer huh? Of course not that failed communist experiment called the USSR, but the whole concept, Marx. Ace42, you're too smart to really believe it. In 10 years you won't....

"Failed communist experiment" hey, at least it had good ideals, unlike the "failed capitalist experiment" that is the US.

[endofmystump]

I can't imagine the layers of arguments and facts you have ready for any response I give. I'll simply say that this "failed capitalist experiment" has invented the internet you are communicating on, the computer you are typing on and given the Beastie Boys the freedom to create and distribute their music for your listening pleasure. Of course you can list 100 bad things about America, as you could any country, but the good vastly outweighs the bad.

I thought we had this discussion before? Our end ideals are the same, we just have different means of getting there. Mine are practical and achievable. Anyway, I'm checking out for a while. I must go produce capital.

[Ace42]

Since when has "inventing things" made a country "good."

It also invented (with help) the nuclear bomb. And used it on a civillian population. But hey, what is the constant prospect of thermo-nuclear annhilation (the threat which is legitimising wars of imperialism that have recently been embarked on) as long as we get to communicate using a system that was *designed to give the US an edge in a thermonuclear war*

How laudable.

[afronaut]

I don't think an economic aspect would neccesarily make someone a conservative. When I say conservative, I mean the people who think all social progress should be trimmed back 50 or so years. I don't neccesarily consider libertarians conservatives. i think that definition would be more "left" or "right" as opposed to liberal or conservative.

I'm talking about people like Protest Warrior who have, or had, this in their mission statement:

"...all you can do is work to create a society where they have no power. And the way to do that is to reduce the role of the State in human affairs as much as possible. Evil is impotent on its own, and we want to do everything we can to cordon them off from decent society"

"they" as in liberals.

My original title for this thread is "why have the terms liberal and progressive become dirty words". What inspired the thread is me always seeing conservatives refer to anyone who doesn't think like them as "the evil libs" or even just "liberal" or "progressive."

[bdavid]

"Failed communist experiment" hey, at least it had good ideals, unlike the "failed capitalist experiment" that is the US.

But it hasn't failed champ. Just because a little bitch like yourself doesn't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Capitalsim has greater ideals than communism anyway. It inspires greatness. Communism inspires sitting on your ass and waiting in line for toilet paper.

Now go buy a Coca-Cola.

[bdavid]

I don't think an economic aspect would neccesarily make someone a conservative. When I say conservative, I mean the people who think all social progress should be trimmed back 50 or so years. I don't neccesarily consider libertarians conservatives. i think that definition would be more "left" or "right" as opposed to liberal or conservative.

I'm talking about people like Protest Warrior who have, or had, this in their mission statement:

"...all you can do is work to create a society where they have no power. And the way to do that is to reduce the role of the State in human affairs as much as possible. Evil is impotent on its own, and we want to do everything we can to cordon them off from decent society"

"they" as in liberals.


My original title for this thread is "why have the terms liberal and progressive become dirty words". What inspired the thread is me always seeing conservatives refer to anyone who doesn't think like them as "the evil libs" or even just "liberal" or "progressive."


By the same token Conservative would be viewed as evil by many liberal as well. See all the Hitler references.

[Ace42]

But it hasn't failed champ.

Tell it to the "winners" who lost their lives in the WTC disaster on 9/11. I bet they feel really pleased with the success of their nation.

Just because a little bitch like yourself doesn't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Which is why the US has a massive national debt? Or is that "successful capitalism" - living off of credit?

Capitalsim has greater ideals than communism anyway.

The ideals of capitalism is to take what you want without conscience without thought. It is the ideals of a virus. If you think viruses are great and noble, well, that's probably because you have such similar intellects. Protozoic solidarity.

It inspires greatness.

Like you? A dumb fuck who considers himself rich and informed, and yet has no idea about what is going on in the world? I think you mean it inspires self-delusion.


Communism inspires sitting on your ass and waiting in line for toilet paper.

Which is why they managed to get a man into space before the US did. Those uninspired backwards commies, with their innovation and technological development.

[Burnout18]

Most of what liberals say will not hold water! Liberals were on the wrong side of history during the cols war, and they are now aswell.

News Flash---- Most americians support Bush!

This country was founded on conservative and Christian values.


The country was founded by a bunch of angry liberals. Liberalism also ended slavery, even though Lincoln was a republican, he was not conservative. The conservatives lived in the south and wanted to keep slavery to help thier economy. The south back then was afraid to change.... afraid of change... is it the same today?

[Whois]

I love Twain. He has to be one of the best Americans next to Franklin.

"A radical thinks two and two makes five. A liberal is more conservative. he knows two and two make four, but he's unhappy about it."
-Herbert Prochnow

Agreed, two giants walking amongst ants...we were lucky to have them.

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, it is to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality." - H.L. Menkin

Another American curmudgeon...

[Whois]

I can't imagine the layers of arguments and facts you have ready for any response I give. I'll simply say that this "failed capitalist experiment" has invented the internet you are communicating on, the computer you are typing on and given the Beastie Boys the freedom to create and distribute their music for your listening pleasure. Of course you can list 100 bad things about America, as you could any country, but the good vastly outweighs the bad.

I thought we had this discussion before? Our end ideals are the same, we just have different means of getting there. Mine are practical and achievable. Anyway, I'm checking out for a while. I must go produce capital.

Hint: America is socialized capitalism.

[pshabi]

Okay. So where are the Christian Values of your fearless leader? Cocaine use, alcoholism, ABUSE OF PUBLIC OFFICE FOR PERSONAL GAIN, Flipping the middle finger, and killing innocent people in an attack on Iraq.

Just because you say you're a Christian, does that make you one?




Most of what liberals say will not hold water! Liberals were on the wrong side of history during the cols war, and they are now aswell.

News Flash---- Most americians support Bush!

This country was founded on conservative and Christian values.

[afronaut]

This country was founded on conservative and Christian values.
Why do you keep on insisting this? This has been proven wrong many times. Has this been rammed in your head as a child or something? The founding fathers may have been christian. So what? This nation is secular and founded on religious freedom and social progress. The last thing the founding fathers wanted was a theocracy. The seperation of church and state was to make sure of this. The christian excuse is responsible for "justifying" such things as the manifest destiny. the almost genocide of the native americans, and early american imperialism.

"I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world."
-Thomas Jefferson

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

[Baraka]

It's because he's a 12-year-old evangelical troll, ie: "blah blah blah I kNoW dA tWUtH!!!111"

[laserx54]

Most people who I've met that consider themselves conservatives are really just racists and/or homophobes.

[racer5.0stang]

Kerry said, " I have a plan for America"

America said, "Who cares!"

Maybe Kerry and Edwards can get a job at a Heinz factory.

[Whois]

Kerry said, " I have a plan for America"

America said, "Who cares!"

Maybe Kerry and Edwards can get a job at a Heinz factory.

So will Bush be releasing the tapes of his conversations with the Lord anytime soon?

[marsdaddy]

My original title for this thread is "why have the terms liberal and progressive become dirty words". What inspired the thread is me always seeing conservatives refer to anyone who doesn't think like them as "the evil libs" or even just "liberal" or "progressive."Well, now you're asking a tough question. I also wonder why "feminism" has morphed into "femnazi" and become a bad word, too? And why is every feminist lesbian?

I think part of the answer lies in the desire of many people to find easy answers and their discomfort with something out of their base of knowledge. The political machines have always pandered to people's fears. In the case of Kerry (and before him Gore, Dukakis, and Mondale, to name a few) he is too smart for the average person. Many people couldn't grasp half of what Kerry was saying, even if it was dead on, and so they chose the simplier, "everything is okay and I have a consistent plan, if it's not" message -- even though Bush didn't lay out one plan.

Case in point: Gay marriage. We can talk about hetero vs. homo coupling and whether it's evil or normal until we're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, there are going to be same sex couples living together, sharing their lives, adopting children, and functioning in much the same ways as hetero couples. It may not be something you understand, but you have to admit it's happening. So why the hatred against it? Because some people not only don't understand it, but have so little confidence in their own way of life, that homosexuality being anything like their own life threatens the fragile ground on which they live. Or, put another way, because these people's lives suck, and are not getting better, why should persecuted homos' lives get any better?

[Jasonik]

So will Bush be releasing the tapes of his conversations with the Lord anytime soon?
HAHA, you know that shit is CLASSIFIED. :D

[EF shhhh Hutton]

Liberals think one way



We think another



----yes we are split. All this fodder can go on forever...libs are closed minded and so are conservatives. Oh well...nothing you people say or do will change the fact that Bush is in office for another 4 years.

In other words, Big Brother Conservative put a pillow over Little Brother's Liberal's face and sufficated "it." Kapeesh?

[Ace42]

Liberals think one way
We think another

libs are closed minded and so are conservatives.

You can't even be consistant within the same fucking post.


Want to guess why everything you say contradicts itself? Because it is a load of bullshit.

[ASsman]

Because they like big butts!

[Whois]

You can't even be consistant within the same fucking post.


Want to guess why everything you say contradicts itself? Because it is a load of bullshit.

Please don't quote Gizmo Jr...

:D

[Ace42]

Please don't quote Gizmo Jr...

:D

Fair enough, fuckface is on ignore with his daddy-uncle.

[EF shhhh Hutton]

ignore? Damm!


(scoreboard)

::knee to groin::




LAMBERT FIELD! LOL

[Rancid_Beasties]

Hyuck, I are a yank, and I hate the commies, buh!

Your argument is so monumentally misinformed, I do not know where to start picking it apart. What about:

1. Stalinism and Communism are not mutually inclusive.
2. Communism is not "the logicial conclusion of Socialism"
3. Communism and Totalitarianism are not mutually inclusive.

4. Communist states do not tend to have currencies, therefore there is no "income" to be divided.

Jeez, fucking hicks and there "we know all about communism, because Senator McCarthy told us it was bad, hyuck!"

What these conservatives dont understand is that the religion they base their entire moral and political beliefs on is progressive. Jesus fraternised with the poor, with the prostitutes and the diseased. He attacked the monetary system at the time by overturning the tables in the temple and telling all his followers to give up their possessions.

He also acknowledged people of other races/religions (ie the good samaritan) as equal. In those days, this was so progressive, they had do put him to death..... think about it you dumb ass evangelicals. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jesus would be far more approving of a pure worldwide communist system (minus the whole atheist thing), in which all are equal and in which the state can wither away (unlike the USSR and china and every other socialist, not communist, country) than a capitalist system that takes advantage of the poor and needy.

[endofmystump]

Generalizations are bad umkay? I'm fiscally conservative (which is the same as classically liberal), socially moderate and don't base much of anything on Jesus. There are lots of people like me out there, so you can't just say "conservatives believe...".
I'll be captain bong hit man tomorrow night. How conservative is that?

[ASsman]

Yah, for once he has a point. But I have already made it, so...

[marsdaddy]

Generalizations are bad umkay? I'm fiscally conservative (which is the same as classically liberal), ...Explain to me how you can be fiscally conservative and vote for the president with the highest deficit in history. Bush is as fiscally liberal as they come.

[endofmystump]

A valid question. It should be noted that he does not have the highest deficit as a percentage of GDP, only aggregate dollars. European countries (France, Germany and England) all have higher deficits as a percentage of GDP. The rate on the t-bill indicates that investors are not too concerned about the deficit at this point. But I do agree he needs to spend less. However, I like that he has significantly lowered my taxes and will give me (and probably all of us on this board) control of our own social security. Read up on that and you'll see we are going to get screwed if something doesn't change. Liberals are too afraid to touch this issue. But, again, I do think spending needs to be cut.

[Rancid_Beasties]

Generalizations are bad umkay? I'm fiscally conservative (which is the same as classically liberal), socially moderate and don't base much of anything on Jesus. There are lots of people like me out there, so you can't just say "conservatives believe...".
I'll be captain bong hit man tomorrow night. How conservative is that?

That is why I said these conservatives. I was refering to Bush's base of conservative evangelicals. I couldn't give a stuff about fiscal conservatives, they occur everywhere and usually swing vote depending on which government will give them the best financial outcome. But what i dont get is how you could vote Bush when he is wrecking what used to be a good economy with bad credit. Wouldn't it be fiscally conservative to vote for Kerry??? And as for smoking a bong, well that has nothing to do with how conservative you are politcally, just take George Bush's drug using when he was younger, and his alcohol addiction....now look at him :(

[afronaut]

Generalizations are bad umkay? I'm fiscally conservative (which is the same as classically liberal), socially moderate and don't base much of anything on Jesus. There are lots of people like me out there, so you can't just say "conservatives believe...".
I'll be captain bong hit man tomorrow night. How conservative is that?

I thought I made it clear in my second post that when I was referring to conservatives, I wasn't referring to people like you at all.

[paulk]

Hint: America is socialized capitalism.

I was going to say, in response to Ace42 calling the U.S. a failed experiment in capitalism, that U.S. capitalism is hardly true capitalism at all. It would be interesting to see where we would be today if things were right.

[paulk]

You have some excellent points (y) . Good to see some1 smart on the message boards in these toubled times

And it's equally troubling to see someone like yourself post an endless string of uninspired one line long posts agreeing with what someone else said.

[Ace42]

A valid question. It should be noted that he does not have the highest deficit as a percentage of GDP, only aggregate dollars. European countries (France, Germany and England) all have higher deficits as a percentage of GDP.

You are mistaken. I remember PMing you with the math. You thought the national debt was around 5% of GDP. Actually it was closer to 60% using the CIA's population and economic stats.

[marsdaddy]

A valid question. It should be noted that he does not have the highest deficit as a percentage of GDP, only aggregate dollars. European countries (France, Germany and England) all have higher deficits as a percentage of GDP. I was referring to the highest deficit in the USA. European countries are unabashed social democracies. Plus, could you imagine Bush justifying the deficit by saying, "well France's as a percentage of GDP is higher."?

But, the real point is Bush and his "base" claim to be for smaller government and more market forces. Then why do they hand unbid contracts to Haliburton and Bechtel? They complain about tax and spend dems, yet they are spend and spend some more deficit mongers.

Oh, and that point about lower taxes is such a wonderful sentiment. And while your Fed taxes are going down, state taxes are going up or public services are being cut. I expect in 5-8 years, the next administration will have to fix the problems created by this admin and you'll be paying more taxes, I'm sure. So enjoy your $1K per child, knowing the schools are in disrepair, fewer and fewer people have access to healthcare, and there are more children living in poverty than ever.

Oh, are you one of Bush's base -- a millionaire? If not, you're fooling yourself thinking you've actually got a substantial tax break. It's camouflage to give larger tax breaks to the rich.

[endofmystump]

Nice catch Ace. I am talking annual GDP vs. annual debt. The number is about 3.2% I believe for '04 (much lower than France and Germany). That is an estimate b/c '04 is not completed.

For aggregate debt, you are correct. This is a trend that needs to be reversed. Spending should be cut. Many people believe supply-side economics will prevail and as the economy continues to improve we will run surpluses again. You should note that bond investors--a very smart crowd in general--are not too concerned about the deficit right now b/c the interest rate on T-bills is near an all time low. But dollar investors do think the currency will continue to trend down, which supports your pessimistic view.
Overall, GDP growth is good and unemployment is very low in the US.

I must say that I find your continued interest in all things US very interesting. Fill us in on your country and all its pros and cons. And as I asked in another thread, instead of throwing rocks at everyone else's country, tell me what is so great about yours. Then tell me what is the best one in the world and why.

[endofmystump]

Mars...,
Here is a link to what the tax rate is now. http://www.fairmark.com/refrence/index.htm
You will note these rates are considerably better than in '99 which was 0-$25,750 = 15%, - $62,450 = 28%, - $132,050 = 31%, -$283,150 = 36% - up = 39.6%.
Tell me how this does not benefit lots of people. Also, it inspires those making big dollars to work even harder b/c they can take more home.

Remember that many fiscal conservatives are unhappy w/ Bush's spending and protectionism (to steel, farmers, etc.), that hurt American consumers and other countries (African farmers, Russian steel producers). They also add to the deficit. Also, he needs to let textile quotas expire as they are set to soon expire (unions have that tied up in litigation, another uniquely American problem) so we can all enjoy some of the least expensive clothes ever.

He is far from perfect. Economically though, he was much better for American business than the option. These businesses are the ones that employ me and you (or eventually will if you are still in school). And you can note plenty of corrupt businesses as you can plenty of corrupt people both on the left and right. However, in general, business provides employment, income and a general increase in standard of living.

I want to note that I enjoy this kind of productive discussion that is fact based, where one person admits good points of another and people keep open minds. So many on these threads go right for the throat and post insults. That accomplishes nothing. Also, all you radical Bush supporters, stop rubbing it in you fucking morons! You need to be reaching out right now, not gloating.

[Ace42]

Nice catch Ace. I am talking annual GDP vs. annual debt. The number is about 3.2% I believe for '04 (much lower than France and Germany). That is an estimate b/c '04 is not completed.

It is easy to have a small deficet per annum if you are simply *not paying off your massive debts*.

Take me, I have massive debts to pay off (Student loan) that dwarfs my income. My "GDP" (or income) is at the moment very low. However, because my income is low, I have a very low rate of deficet spending. Few taxes (read: no) and my debt does not have to be repaid until my income goes over a specified amount, so I can keep my debt static (inline with inflation) indefinitely. So, I get to keep most of my income. However, does this make me "better off" than someone with a very small debt (say a bank overdraft) who has to pay a large chunk of his income back every year to offset that?

Yeah, I have more cash in my hand, but I still have massive debts that dwarf the other guy's. You could not argue I am in a stronger financial position than someone without debts that big who is actively paying them off.

Overall, GDP growth is good and unemployment is very low in the US.

However, the rate that the national debt is increasing (mainly due to interest, not increased spending) is still incredibly high. Despite your "high GDP / low annual deficet" - you are barely making a dent in your massive gross national debt, infact it is still *increasing* - you haven't even begun to "level out" the rate at which the national debt is going.

I'd hardly tout "The rate at which national debt is accelerating has gone down a bit" as being anything to be proud of. Hell, that's not even the same as saying "The rate at national debt is increasing has gone down"

Fill us in on your country and all its pros and cons. And as I asked in another thread, instead of throwing rocks at everyone else's country, tell me what is so great about yours. Then tell me what is the best one in the world and why.

That sounds like a poser for another thread and dozens of posts.

[marsdaddy]

Mars...,
Here is a link to what the tax rate is now. http://www.fairmark.com/refrence/index.htm
You will note these rates are considerably better than in '99 which was 0-$25,750 = 15%, - $62,450 = 28%, - $132,050 = 31%, -$283,150 = 36% - up = 39.6%.
Tell me how this does not benefit lots of people. Also, it inspires those making big dollars to work even harder b/c they can take more home.
I'm taking your numbers for fact, though I can't confirm them. Still, if I'm reading this correctly, there is a point, where if you made/make between 62,450 and 70,350, as a single person, you are actually paying 3% more taxes in 2004 than in 1999. I'm sure the corresponding numbers for married couples would show a tax increase, too. I'm willing to bet these "holes" are actually planned weights to increase tax burdens on the middle class -- the largest number of people and people that can't afford it -- while lowering taxes on people who can.

There is also the fact that my family has less income today than in 1999 due to the fucked up economy. So, while the net % I take home might be more, our gross income and net $'s are much less.

You've also brought up the idea of supply side economics, and high income indifference curves a couple of times now. I thought Reagan proved that supply side (or trickle down) economics don't work. The rich get richer, they don't re-invest into the economy. And the idea that people will stop working because of tax rates is silly. I mean, certainly, all of us decide between work and leisure, at some point. But, no one stops working because they think they're getting .67 vs. .69 on the dollar. My belief, though I might be unique here, is as a high income earner, you are taking more out of society, per capita, so you should be required to put more back in.

And while, yes, as a single person you're getting nearly $4k more, earning $132050 today, than in 1999, you were still taking home $91+K in 1999, which is more than the average family of 4 in the USA. And that avg family of 4 (making $60K) is only taking home $1800 more than in 1999.

Oh yeah, and I've been out of school for a "few" years now. I really am a daddy, too.

[endofmystump]

You are operating w/ leverage like many good companies. In essence you are buying business equipment (the knowledge you are attaining that you can apply for later use and production of capital) today and paying for it later. As long as this equipment will allow you to pay off the debt and then some (the rest of your career earnings) you are much better off than the other person in the analogy if he took on no debt but got no higher education and thereby had no equipment to get a marginally better job. This is particularly true if the cost of the debt is low interest which it sounds like it is.

This is how most good companies, and many smart consumers operate. Borrow cheaper than you can invest, and pocket the spread. It can get out of hand and lead to bankruptcy for those lacking discipline and/or adequate intelligence. Which is what you probably want for the US. But if handled correctly, it leads to better returns, as your education vs. cost of education should. Remember that all the debt (treasury bonds) are retired at the end of their payment period. So we are retiring debt all along the way. Your negative view is a possibility, but certainly not an absolute. One of the founding fathers battled Jefferson over this and supported your view. You should look that up and read him. You'd agree w/ lots of what he says.

[endofmystump]

Mars,
I'm a daddy too. I think you and I have a lot of common ground. I have to get back to work right now, but I think I can convince you of some of my points when I have more time. You can convince me of some of yours as well.
FYI - the more deal I close at work, the more money I make. This motivates me to work harder. If I had to face the highest marginal tax rate as when Reagan first took office of north of 60%, I would not work nearly as hard. The the more I take home, the more I will spend (save too, but my savings are usually in buying investment real estate and pocketing the appreciation). One of my side "gigs" is buying homes and fixing them up. So the more I take home, the more I spend on improving neighborhoods, which is money going back into the economy. We'll talk further in the future. I'll also note you aren't one of those guys that automatically calls someone Hitler if they don't agree w/ him...

[BGirl]

I like that he has significantly lowered my taxes and will give me (and probably all of us on this board) control of our own social security. Read up on that and you'll see we are going to get screwed if something doesn't change. Liberals are too afraid to touch this issue.

Okay, this liberal isn't. Take it from someone who used to work on Wall Street: the Ken Lays of the world can't wait to screw you over after they get their hands on the Social Security money. Anybody who hasn't had many dealings with financial institutions is in for a big surprise - they know every trick in the book to get you coming and going.

Long live Eliot Spitzer. (y)

[Ace42]

But if handled correctly, it leads to better returns, as your education vs. cost of education should. Remember that all the debt (treasury bonds) are retired at the end of their payment period. So we are retiring debt all along the way. Your negative view is a possibility, but certainly not an absolute.

"Neither a borrower or a lender be / for loan oft loses both itself and friend, / and borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry"

The problem with the speculation is that you can repay the loan at the end of it. This is not likely. For starters, the cost of production is going up, and when oil is exausted it will be game over. Before then, desperate collectors will be banging on the US door going GIMME FREAKING CASH. The US will then face serious problems.

[SobaViolence]

i was gonna vote Progressive Conservative, but then they merged with the Alliance...and i hate WASP, far right wing regressive politics.

[paulk]

well i like reading other ppls post that are intelligent. Not as if u add much to the forums. All u do is sit and try and insult ppl. :confused:

You started it.

amen to that my brotha! way to teach a lesson to Mr. Bush Supporter

Something like that. Other than that I have no problem with you.

[toreadore]

In my dictionary, all americans are conservative or right wing. The socalled Liberals, are what in Denmark would be Venstre, the second most Right Wing Party in the country. The republicans would be totally off scale, a mix of the christian party and Danish People's Party (and yeah, I guess you know what that stands for).

Of course there are pros and cons with both our and your system. Your "Winner Takes It All" election system prevents the more radical elements to gain any political space, so that only the the centre (which I mean is a right centre) can have their voice heard. In Denmark you only have to get 2 percent of the votes to get seats in the parliament, which means we have to deal both with the communists and the racist right wing in the political landscape. I mean it's worth it, sure I get sick of the constant xenophobic talk from the right (which seems to be completely gone in american politics), but to me, a true democracy has to include all people and their views.

[farker]

There's nothing wrong with being a true conservative, especially a fiscal conservative - and it certainly doesn't make you "a fucking idiot".

GWB is DEFINITELY not a true conservative. He shovels money onto the fire like it's going out of style - Kerry might be a tax & spend liberal, but Bush is a borrow and spend neo-conservative.

If everyone thought exactly the same as you or I, the world would be a pretty boring place.

[burmeese002]

I think you may need to look at it from a more objective perspective. Conservatives are human and their reality is what it is, though you may not agree, try to look at things from their angle. Though I'm not a conservative, I can understand working my ass off and being pissed about paying for corrupt welfare programs. (along with all the other broken social programs) Especially if you consider that most violent crimes are comitted by indivuals in or being supported in some way by said programs. As much as I hate to admit it, conservatives tend to be responsible people and that's because many of them busted their ass for what they have and it kills them to give it up for bullshit. So instead of hating the person, hate the reason and do somthing to change it!

[Rosie Cotton]

In my humble little opinion, people are conservatives (or neo-cons, there is a difference) because thinking hurts their poor little heads. :confused: It's easier to thump a bible than to formulate an opinion.

[marsdaddy]

Though I'm not a conservative, I can understand working my ass off and being pissed about paying for corrupt welfare programs. (along with all the other broken social programs) Especially if you consider that most violent crimes are comitted by indivuals in or being supported in some way by said programs.You may not be conservative, but you seem prejudiced. I bet most violent crimes are not committed by people on government assistance, but I'm willing to accept I'm wrong, if someone has any FACTS to present. My bet is based on population.

I'm also fairly certain that the majority of people on government assistance do not cheat the system. And, these people are getting less and less assistance under Bush, leading to a higher likelihood of crime.

As much as I hate to admit it, conservatives tend to be responsible people and that's because many of them busted their ass for what they have and it kills them to give it up for bullshit.Hmm, I picture conservatives sitting on their trailer park astroturf lawn whittling wood and swatting flies. I'm busting my ass and I'm a left leaning liberal.