Israel vs. Palestine

[endofmystump]

In this thread, you have to choose one or the other, or offer a realistic solution.

Do you want Israel to exist peacefully forever inside its present borders or do you want it destroyed for a Palestinian homeland? Or can you find some peaceful solution?

[DroppinScience]

Super realistic solution inside:

-Send all the Israelis to Utah. They're similar lands... dry, arrid. Plus it's full of Mormons. The Israelis can start fighting THEM off. :p

-Now with the Palestinians, they've got a void to fill that's been empty since the Israelis left. They need somebody to create an identity off of. I propose we send the Newfoundlanders over to Israel.

Yup, a hella peaceful solution. In your face, David Mitchell! ;)

[Funkaloyd]

What could be considered realistic? We have no influence over any of the factions involved in the conflict. If we were to pretend for argument's sake that we do, then a realistic solution could be as simple as "everyone just stops killing each other and starts getting along," and that's way to easy an answer.

[Rancid_Beasties]

For one, Israel is hardly existing peacfully, it gives as good as it gets from Palestine. We must not forget that this was the land of the Palestinian people before WWII, Israel was a creation of Western nations post holocaust. Having said that, Israel is now home to many people, who now have as much claim over the area as Palestinians. The only resolution is to set down the borders and tell both countries to stay within them. Maybe in between you could put a few peacekeepers. But seriously, do any of us really know how to fix that mess??? Without pissing off one or both of the sides???

[ASsman]

Well, I choose Turd Sandwhich.

[paulk]

I recommend that instead of "Israel v. Palestine", which implies that Israel came first and is right and Palestine's causing the shit, from now it it shall be "Palestine v. Israel".

[endofmystump]

If it were only as easy at Funkaloyd says. Though that is the goal. I think Rancid sums it up. The question is how you get there.
I'll also note that I'm surprised Ace didn't jump in. After all, Churchill had a big part in creating the problem.
Most importantly, I think this is the root of the US's problem w/ radical Islam. If we didn't support Israel, and simply were allies w/ the Saudis--we know we have to at least be there as long as oil is essential to the US--, I think radical Islam would not have a problem w/ the US.
So everyone keeps bitching about Bush, but the root of the problem is the subject discussed in this very thread. Bin Laden never would have aimed his wrath at the US if we didn't support Israel.
Note too that Bin Laden is one of those types that will always be looking for a fight, just like most of his supporters, many of whom are poor, pissed off males that will not be peaceful or tolerant no matter what. Their beliefs are not about Islam's teachings--which are profound and as good a guidence as taught by Jesus in The Bible, if not even more profound if you know much about Muhammed before he spoke the Koran.
Anti-semitism is rising in Europe and look at how much of the jewish vote Bush received. I predict that trend will continue. After all, the right's Neo-cons are Jewish. Israel vs. Palestine, or Palestine vs. Israel, as paulk asks, is the crux of current and future international relations b/n Europe, the Middle East and the US, and the issue that must be resolved before both the US can be less aggressive in its foreign policy and the Arabian Peninsula can create democracies.
So how do we logically solve it?

[Schmeltz]

You can't logically solve a problem caused by religion, a fundamentally illogical and irrational way of thinking. But you know what? It's been a long, long time since anybody stepped up and convinced some Jews that he was the Messiah - last one was some Russian dude in the Middle Ages, as I recall. What we need is for someone to shake the entire Judeo-Christian belief system to its roots by convincing them all that he's come to fulfill their religion. For the better part of two thousand years, a third of the planet has been sitting on top of an essentially static ideology, prevaricating over internal changes to its ideology but remaining externally mired in a state of perpetual expectation that dictates its interpretation of every significant world event - to the detriment of those who don't buy into it.

It's time to mix shit up again. It's been too long. It's the only real way to change this situation, for better or worse.

[endofmystump]

The Israel vs. Palestine issue is not caused by religion. However, the religious difference has further divided the people and exacerbated the problem.

If our only hope is waiting for another Messiah, whether it be Jesus or Mohammed, we are in trouble.

Anybody from Israel or the Middle East have any input?

[paulk]

Well, I'm from the east side of Las Vegas, not really in the north, not in the south, kind of in the middle.

So, it is my qualified opinion that the United States take a noninterventionist approach to this "problem".

[endofmystump]

I enjoy Vegas. Nice place to live I imagine. What a booming real estate market. I love The Hard Rock.

Are you suggesting we should not give Israel money and/or cool our strong relationship with them? Aren't these really "intervening"?

[paulk]

Where does this money for Israel come from? If I'm going to be paying taxes, I'd rather not have my hard-earned money go to fund a terrorist state.

[endofmystump]

http://www.wrmea.com/html/aipac.htm

I hope I did that link right. It's my first time doing that.

Anyway the summation is that the US government has given b/n $82-$94 billion to Israel since 1948.

[paulk]

Whether those figures are reliable I don't know. But are you implying that it's been "a mere 80 billion dollars"? Do you realize how many Palestinians you can murder with 80 billion dollars?

[endofmystump]

No. The other way. I'm saying what an incredible amount of money. I'm essentially answering your question of where the money comes from. The answer is simply the US government (who generates revenues from taxes, the money they take from you and me).

It's incredible how deep the US is in this issue. This is the problem w/ US foreign policy. If we did not support Israel, we would not have had 9/11 and we would not be in Afghanistan and Iraq right now.

[Spanishbomb808]

Liberate Palestine. Drive Israel into the sea.

Cliché statements? Yes. Do I agree with them? Yes.

[paulk]

No. The other way. I'm saying what an incredible amount of money. I'm essentially answering your question of where the money comes from. The answer is simply the US government (who generates revenues from taxes, the money they take from you and me).

It's incredible how deep the US is in this issue. This is the problem w/ US foreign policy. If we did not support Israel, we would not have had 9/11 and we would not be in Afghanistan and Iraq right now.

Sorry, I misunderstood the post of yours to which i was replying. I agree with you then.

[Schmeltz]

Are you kidding? The Israeli state is founded on a purely religious principle - Zionism. There wouldn't be a nation of Israel if it wasn't for zealotry and millenarianism.

[endofmystump]

You are correct that Zionism was the root and zeolotry provided the energy to turn the concept into reality. However, do you think Israel would have survived this long w/o US support?

More and more anti-semitism is happening across Europe. I think the tide is going in Spanish Bomb's direction. If the US ends its support, Israel would be alone and when worse came to worse--as it inevitably would--Israel may be forced to use its nukes.

This is how WWWIII could really begin. It scares the piss out of me and because of this delimma, I don't see how the US washes its hands of Israel even if it wanted to.

[Schmeltz]

Conversely, what do you think is the wellspring of American support for Israel? I would bet that it has a lot to do with the millions on millions of evangelical Christians in the Bible Belt - the massive voting bloc that just handed Bush the election. Aren't most of the hardline neoconservative officials in the American government self-confessed Christians?

At this point, it is indeed probably impossible for an American government to wash its hands of Israel. The electorate simply won't stand for it.

We should stop waiting for a Messiah and figure out how to produce one.

[Ace42]

genetic engineering

[Whois]

genetic engineering

It worked for the Raliens...

[sabralit]

I am an Israeli, most of you have rather harsh statements towards Israel....I beleive this is because of sympathy for the underdog,as if Jews wern't the underdog for centuries,the way they live is not a result of Jewish influence... you act as though Israelis are killing machines and that's what Israel is about.......if you at all knew history you wouldn't think so. Israel does what it has to do to defend itself it wouldn't be that way if palestinians were peaceful, in this case they would live amoungst Jews and make friends, and learn about each others cultures......believe me, Jews would have welcomed this. Please don't feel sorry for them because of the way they live by blaming it on the Israeli's. Palestinians have no substantial leader to take care of them Arafat pocketed all of his money to go to his lovely wife in Paris, blame him, blame the extremists who truely rule the palestinian 'nation',and teach children to kill themselves for allah:(when you hear on the news 'Israeli's kill palestinian children' that is who they send to suicide bomb, women and children. Israel never intentionaly for pleasure would EVER kill a woman or child or anyone without reason, Israel defense force has a code of honor and are discharged if it is broken) Israel is not about completely dividing 'nations' of people but to keep Jews protected in a place they can call their own. Yes Israel was developed Post WWII as a state, with good reason, but also it was the Jewish land before Islam was created, before christianity, before buddhism, Catholisism etc. This doesn't mean we don't welcome all of these denomantions but from our history and even our present Israel is there to protect the Jews from the antisemitism that was and still is. Keeping in mind amongst all this the Jews never killed in our history for pleasure, never ruled with vexation, so when you say sink Israel into the Dead sea, think again, Israel is an honest, propoghanda free nation we are a peaceful people. Beleive all the negativity and propaghanda you hear created by extremists but know this, Israel could never sink into the sea, Dead sea or not, we would float, ascend above corruption and impungement like we always have through the slander of our history from others. It makes me sad to here how obscured most of your vision of peace is. Israel vs. Palestine, Palestine vs. Israel we are all humans, I wish Allah would enlighten this simple idea into the minds of Islam, but if we are to live and take care of our people we can't back away from this conflict or it's WWII all over again.Please go to a propaghanda free site and get educated.I'm not saying don't feel sorry for the Palestinians at all, I feel sorry for them, they are ruled by corruption and they need good influence their women arn't free, and their children aren't educated like normal children, this is not the Israeli's fault, their own people abandoned them, above all they need help, but Jews and Israeli's cannot stand for malice....."Take the guns away from the palistinians, there will be peace, take the guns away from the Israeli's there will be no more Israeli's." what would you choose?

[Spanishbomb808]

Given the overall liberal sentiment of this board, I would've expected the majority of the people here to be pro-Israel.

Oh well. Liberate Palestine.

[Ace42]

Israel does what it has to do to defend itself it wouldn't be that way if palestinians were peaceful, in this case they would live amoungst Jews and make friends, and learn about each others cultures......believe me, Jews would have welcomed this.

So where does the Israeli army beating up little old men for no reason (they said as much) fit into that? What about the bit where they grab random Palestinians off the street and attack the batteries from their radios to each ear to electrocute them? What about the bit where they shot a UK reporter who was filming their atrocities?

[D_Raay]

Or better yet how about the 13 year old girl that Israeli soldier emptied his clip into the other day, I believe they pulled 20 bullets out of her. How do you expect there to be peace with such barbarism going on?

[sabralit]

once again you can choose to beleive propaghanda, that is what the negativity towards Israel is. the officer that shot the 13 year old girl was discharged and is still underinvestigation this is what I mean by the Israeli defense forces code of honor, if something is seemingly dishonorable IDF investigated, and fairly does so. 18 year old soldiers make mistakes, in any military in the world, 18 year old suicide bombers, even younger than 18 have a true intent and are never put to justice. Justify that. In IDF they Train soldiers to treat the problem with compassion, for the most part this is done, for some others they are I don't know, a little bitter about loosing family members and their peace of mind;above all Israel tries to rise above all of that and not let animosity take over our better judgement. You try living in Israel.

[Funkaloyd]

Israel does what it has to do to defend itself

So, how is occupying Palestine working out for you?

[DroppinScience]

Given the overall liberal sentiment of this board, I would've expected the majority of the people here to be pro-Israel.

Oh well. Liberate Palestine.

Why would you expect liberals to be pro-Israel? :confused:

I'm more or less neutral, but I'm against the Israeli government's actions and of course against the suicide bombers (have no problems with regular Israelis or Palestinians).

I'd like to think I stand for innocent human lives, no matter what their nationality/religion/race/ethnicity (whatever other classification you want to give).

[sabralit]

Thank you.

[Ace42]

once again you can choose to beleive propaghanda, that is what the negativity towards Israel is.

The things I cited were word of mouth admissions of guilt from remorseful ex-soldiers. These are soldiers who commited atrocities conscientiously (peer-pressure was admittedly a factor, but that is certainly no excuse)

It was made by an Israeli documentary film maker. This is not "propoganda" - this is portrayl of actual events, and if your patriotism makes you so delusional that you cannot admit just how wrong your country is, then really there is not much to say.

In IDF they Train soldiers to treat the problem with compassion,

Except for the widespread torture of innocent Palestinians (innocent in that the IDF people being interviewed explained the picked on the first person they saw in a quiet neighbourhood where nothing was occuring) - when they treat the problem like it is their personal playground, to fuck people over however the hell they want.

for some others they are I don't know, a little bitter about loosing family members and their peace of mind;above all Israel tries to rise above all of that and not let animosity take over our better judgement. You try living in Israel.

The guys in the documentary had not lost family members and were not out for specific "revenge" - they were just picking on people because they could. They were not part of a "small minority" - they felt justified because they saw EVERYONE doing it, their commanding officers, their fellow soldiers everyone. That's not small scale, that is ENDEMIC.

And I'd not like to try living in Israel. You guys have managed to make it into something approaching a warzone through your stubborn refusal to admit your wrongdoings. The criminal actions of the IDF are not the product of the Arab-Israeli tensions, but a signficant causal factor in it.

[Spanishbomb808]

Why would you expect liberals to be pro-Israel? :confused:



Liberals tend to have a real pansy-ass, "live and let live" attitude that just wants "peace" as opposed to the total destruction of that dirty, illegitimate state.

[DroppinScience]

Liberals tend to have a real pansy-ass, "live and let live" attitude that just wants "peace" as opposed to the total destruction of that dirty, illegitimate state.

You're going to need to make yourself clear.

1) "Pro-Israel" means you're conservative (presently this is the predominant mindset) and you don't want Palestinians to have their own state at any cost.
2) Total destruction of that dirty, illegitimate state? Referring to Israel right? I'm not a huge Israel fan, but why are you so vehemently against them? Since you're Hispanic, I'd presume you're a Catholic right (so am I)? So what does it matter. Jews... Muslims? Not our concern. :p

[Spanishbomb808]

Ironically, I'm just an overopinionated cantakerous Hispanic atheist who dislikes the existance of Israel. I probably attained this attitude after going to english.aljazeera.net on a daily basis.

Liberate Palestine!

[DroppinScience]

I call myself an agnostic Catholic (I don't know why I hang on to the Catholic title... must be some latent anti-Protestant sentiments ;)).

By the way, it's CANTANKEROUS.

[Spanishbomb808]

I failed to include the "n" in a large word... sue me. I doubt a lot of the local chaps will understand it anyhow.

[Cashew]

Well, there is no peaceful solution. These two groups of people have hated each other since the beginning of time so to think that they can get along in the same country is just plain dumb (same situation in Iraq).

The only solution is to remove the Isrealis. Plain and simple. We put them there in the 50's, we can remove them.

It is their holy land, but they have no right to occupy it. The people of palenstine had fought and died for that land for generation, and for it to just be given away to a bunch of white people because they had a tragic event happen to them is horse shit. (the holocaust was a disgusting horrible thing, but it isn't worth this shit).

It is the Nation of Palestine, not Isreal, it was stolen from them, and they were oppressed and put in cages, it's time for a little justice!

Don't believe me! I don't care!

The Influence of the Christian Right on U.S. Middle East Policy By Stephen Zunes (Smartest man alive next to Chomsky and Zinn).

In recent years a politicized and right-wing Protestant fundamentalist movement has emerged as a major factor in U.S. support for the policies of the rightist Likud government in Israel. To understand this influence, it is important to recognize that the rise of the religious right as a political force in the United States is a relatively recent phenomenon that emerged as part of a calculated strategy by leading right-wingers in the Republican Party who—while not fundamentalist Christians themselves—recognized the need to enlist the support of this key segment of the American population in order to achieve political power.

Traditionally, American fundamentalist Protestants were not particularly active in national politics, long seen as worldly and corrupt. This changed in the late 1970s as part of a calculated effort by conservative Republican operatives who recognized that as long as the Republican Party was primarily identified with militaristic foreign policies and economic proposals that favored the wealthy, it would remain a minority party. Over the previous five decades, Republicans had won only four out of 12 presidential elections and had controlled Congress for only two of its 24 sessions.

By mobilizing rightist religious leaders and adopting conservative positions on highly-charged social issues such as women’s rights, abortion, sex education, and homosexuality, Republican strategists were able to bring millions of fundamentalist Christians—who as a result of their lower-than-average income were not otherwise inclined to vote Republican—into their party. Through such organizations as the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition, the GOP promoted a right-wing political agenda through radio and television broadcasts as well as from the pulpit. Since capturing this pivotal constituency, Republicans have won four out of six presidential races, have dominated the Senate for seven out of 12 sessions, and have controlled the House of Representatives for the past decade.

As a result of being politically wooed, those who identify with the religious right are now more likely than the average American to vote and to be politically active. The Christian Right constitutes nearly one out of seven American voters and determines the agenda of the Republican Party in about half of the states, particularly in the South and Midwest. A top Republican staffer noted: “Christian conservatives have proved to be the political base for most Republicans. Many of these guys, especially the leadership, are real believers in this stuff, and so are their constituents.�
The Movement Takes Office

The Rev. Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State recently quipped: “The good news is that the Christian Coalition is fundamentally collapsing. The bad news is that the people who ran it are all in the government.� He noted, for example, that when he goes to the Justice Department, he keeps seeing lawyers formerly employed by prominent right-wing fundamentalist preacher Pat Robertson.

As the Washington Post observed, “For the first time since religious conservatives became a modern political movement, the president of the United States has become the movement’s de facto leader.� Former Christian Coalition leader Ralph Reed marked the triumph by chortling, “You’re no longer throwing rocks at the building; you’re in the building.� He added that God “knew George Bush had the ability to lead in this compelling way.�

American liberals have long supported Israel as a refuge for persecuted Jews and have championed the country’s democratic institutions (for its Jewish citizens). Historically these liberals, bolstered by the disproportionate political influence of Zionist Jews within the party, prompted Democrats to adopt a hard line toward Palestinians and other Arabs. Though more hawkish on most foreign policy issues, Republicans traditionally took a somewhat more moderate stance partly due to the party’s ties to the oil industry and in part because of GOP concern that too much support for Israel could lead Arab nationalists toward a pro-Soviet or—in more recent years—a pro-Islamist orientation. But this alignment has shifted, thanks to the influence of the Christian Right. Though Christian fundamentalist support for Israel dates back many years, only recently has it become one of the movement’s major issues.

As a result of renewed fundamentalist interest in Israel and in recognition of the movement’s political influence, American Jews are less reluctant to team up with the Christian Right. Fundamentalist leader Gary Bauer, for example, now receives frequent invitations to address mainstream Jewish organizations, which would have been hesitant toward the movement prior to the Bush presidency. This is partly a phenomenon of demographics: Jews constitute only 3 percent of the U.S. population, and barely half of them support the current Israeli government.

The Israelis also recognize the Christian Right’s political clout. Since 2001, Bauer has met with several Israeli Cabinet members and with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Former Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu noted, “We have no greater friends and allies� than right-wing American Christians.

It used to be that Republican administrations had the ability to withstand pressure from Zionist lobbying groups when it was deemed important for American interests. For example, the Eisenhower administration pressured Israel during the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Reagan administration sold AWACS-equipped planes to Saudi Arabia in 1981, and the first Bush administration delayed a $10 billion loan guarantee for Israel to await the outcome of the pivotal 1992 Israeli election.

With the growing influence of the Christian Right, however, such detachment is no longer as easily achieved. For the first time, the Republican Party has a significant pro-Israel constituency of its own that it cannot ignore. Top White House officials, including Elliott Abrams, director of the National Security Council on Near East and North African Affairs, have regular and often lengthy meetings with representatives of the Christian Right. As one leading Republican put it: “They are very vocal and have shifted the center of gravity toward Israel and against concessions. It colors the environment in which decisions are being made.� Indeed, the degree of the Bush administration’s support for Prime Minister Sharon has surprised even the most hard-line Zionist Jews.
Rising Power of Christian Zionists

It appears, then, that right-wing Christian Zionists are, at this point, more significant in the formulation of U.S. policy toward Israel than are Jewish Zionists, as illustrated by three recent incidents.

* After the Bush administration’s initial condemnation of the attempted assassination of militant Palestinian Islamist Abdel Aziz Rantisi in June 2003, the Christian Right mobilized its constituents to send thousands of e-mails to the White House protesting the criticism. A key element in these e-mails was the threat that if such pressure continued to be placed upon Israel, the Christian Right would stay home on Election Day. Within 24 hours, there was a notable change in tone by the president. Indeed, when Rantisi fell victim to a successful Israeli assassination in April 2004, the administration—as it did with the assassination of Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin the previous month—largely defended the Israeli action.

* When the Bush administration insisted that Israel stop its April 2002 military offensive in the West Bank, the White House received over 100,000 e-mails from Christian conservatives in protest of its criticism. Almost immediately, President Bush came to Israel’s defense. Over the objections of the State Department, the Republican-led Congress adopted resolutions supporting Israel’s actions and blaming the violence exclusively on the Palestinians.

* When President Bush announced his support for the Road Map for Middle East peace, the White House received more than 50,000 postcards over the next two weeks from Christian conservatives opposing any plan that called for the establishment of a Palestinian state. The administration quickly backpedaled, and the once-highly touted Road Map essentially died.

Theological Influences: Good Versus Evil

Messianic theology is centered around the belief in a hegemonic Israel as a necessary precursor to the second coming of Christ. Although this doctrine is certainly an important part of the Christian Right’s support of a militaristic and expansionist Jewish state, fundamentalist Christian Zionism in America ascribes to an even more dangerous dogma: that of Manichaeism, the belief that reality is divided into absolute good and absolute evil.

The day after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, President Bush declared, “This will be a monumental struggle of good versus evil, but good will prevail.� America was targeted—according to President Bush—not on account of U.S. support for Arab dictatorships, the large U.S. military presence in the Middle East, U.S. backing of the Israeli occupation, or the humanitarian consequences of U.S. policy toward Iraq but simply because they “hate our freedom.� Despite the Gospels’ insistence that the line separating good and evil does not run between nations but rather within each person, President Bush cited Christological texts to support his war aims in the Middle East, declaring, “And the light [America] has shown in the darkness [the enemies of America], and the darkness will not overcome it [American shall conquer its enemies].�

Even more disturbingly, Bush has stated repeatedly that he was “called� by God to run for president. Veteran journalist Bob Woodward noted, “The President was casting his mission and that of the country in the grand vision of God’s Master Plan,� wherein he promised, in his own words, “to export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of this great country and rid the world of evil.� In short, President Bush believes that he has accepted the responsibility of leading the free world as part of God’s plan. He even told then-Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas that “God told me to strike al-Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did.� Iraq has become the new Babylon, and the “war on terrorism� has succeeded the Cold War with the Soviet Union as the quintessential battle between good and evil.
Cultural Affinities

The esprit that many Americans have with Israel is rooted in a common historical mission. Each country was settled in part by victims fleeing religious persecution who fashioned a new nation rooted in high ideals with a political system based upon relatively progressive and democratic institutions. And both peoples established their new nations through the oppression, massacre, and dislocation of indigenous populations. Like many Israelis, Americans often confuse genuine religious faith with nationalist ideology.

John Winthrop, the influential 17th century Puritan theologian, saw America as the “City on the Hill� (Zion) and “a light upon nations.� In effect, there is a kind of American Zionism assuming a divinely inspired singularity that excuses what would otherwise be considered unacceptable behavior. Just as Winthrop defended the slaughter of the indigenous Pequot peoples of colonial Massachusetts as part of a divine plan, 19th century theologians defended America’s westward expansion as “manifest destiny� and the will of God. Such theologically rooted aggrandizement did not stop at the Pacific Ocean: the invasion of the Philippines in the 1890s was justified by President William McKinley and others as part of an effort to “uplift� and “Christianize� the natives, ignoring the fact that the Filipinos (who by that time had nearly rid the country of Spanish colonialists and had established the first democratic constitution in Asia) were already over 90 percent Christian.

Similarly, today—in the eyes of the Christian Right—the Bush Doctrine and the expansion of American military and economic power is all part of a divine plan. For example, in their 2003 Christmas card, Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife Lynne included the quote, “And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?�

But is such thinking normative in the United States? Polls show that the ideological gap between Christian conservatives and other Americans regarding the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the “war on terrorism� is even higher than the ideological gap between Christian conservatives and other Americans regarding Israel and Palestine.

In many respects, much of the American right may be at least as concerned about how Israel can help the United States as about how the United States can help Israel. Due to the anti-Semitism inherent in much of Christian Zionist theology, it has long been recognized that U.S. fundamentalist support for Israel does not stem from a concern for the Jewish people per se but rather from a desire to leverage Jewish jingoism to hasten the Second Coming of Christ. Such opportunism is also true of those who—for theological or other reasons—seek to advance the American Empire in the Middle East. And though a strong case can be made that U.S. support for the Israeli occupation ultimately hurts U.S. interests, there remains a widely held perception that Israel is an important asset to American strategic objectives in the Middle East and beyond.
Strategic Calculation Trumps Ethno-Religious Card

Ultimately, Washington’s championing of Israel—like its approval of other repressive governments—is part of a strategic calculation rather than simply ethnic politics. When a choice must be made, geopolitical considerations outweigh ethnic loyalties. For example, for nearly a quarter of century, the United States supported the brutal occupation of East Timor by Indonesia and to this day supports the Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara, despite the absence of powerful Indonesian-American or Moroccan-American ethnic lobbying forces. The United States was able to get away with its support for occupations by Indonesia and Morocco due to their relative obscurity. This is certainly not the case with Israel and Palestine. (Interestingly, even though the East Timor situation involved a predominantly Muslim country conquering, occupying, and terrorizing a predominantly Christian country, virtually no protests arose from the Islamaphobic Christian Right.)

The Christian Right has long been a favorite target for the Democratic Party, particularly its liberal wing, since most Americans are profoundly disturbed by fundamentalists of any kind influencing policies of a government with a centuries-old tradition of separating church and state. Yet the positions of most liberal Democrats in Congress regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are far closer to those of the reactionary Christian Coalition than to those of the moderate National Council of Churches, far closer to the rightist Rev. Pat Robertson than to the leftist Rev. William Sloan Coffin, far closer to the ultraconservative Moral Majority than to the liberal Churches for Middle East Peace, and far closer to the fundamentalist Southern Baptist Convention than to any of the mainline Protestant churches. Rather than accusing these erstwhile liberals of being captives of the Jewish lobby—a charge that inevitably leads to the countercharge of anti-Semitism—those who support justice for the Palestinians should instead reproach congressional Democrats for falling captive to the Christian Right. Such a rebuke would be no less accurate and would likely enhance the ability of those who support peace, justice, and the rule of law to highlight the profound immorality of congressional sanction for the Israeli occupation.

Those who support justice for the Palestinians—or even simply the enforcement of basic international humanitarian law—must go beyond raising awareness of the issue to directly confronting those whose acquiescence facilitates current repressive attitudes. It will not be possible to counter the influence of the Christian Right in shaping American policies in the Middle East as long as otherwise-socially conscious Christian legislators and other progressive-minded elected officials are beholden to fundamentalist voting pressures. It is unlikely that these Democrats and moderate Republicans will change, however, until liberal-to-mainline churches mobilize their resources toward demanding justice as strongly as right-wing fundamentalists have mobilized their resources in support of repression.

[ASsman]

The Jews are asking for it again.

[sabralit]

This is such a sad discussion, I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I just can't beleive people can be so blind.I've had enough this is a waste of my time. I know what is right and it's not because of bias, It's just history and the negative posters don't know the true history and that's ok you can't convince everyone, the point isn't to convince, just to be content with life but we won't be pushed around at the same time, there is only so much you can do good bye all, i'm sorry for you.

[Whois]

This is such a sad discussion, I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I just can't beleive people can be so blind.I've had enough this is a waste of my time. I know what is right and it's not because of bias, It's just history and the negative posters don't know the true history and that's ok you can't convince everyone, the point isn't to convince, just to be content with life but we won't be pushed around at the same time, there is only so much you can do good bye all, i'm sorry for you.

You have nukes...who is pushing you around?

[ASsman]

This is such a sad discussion, I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I just can't beleive people can be so blind.I've had enough this is a waste of my time. I know what is right and it's not because of bias, It's just history and the negative posters don't know the true history and that's ok you can't convince everyone, the point isn't to convince, just to be content with life but we won't be pushed around at the same time, there is only so much you can do good bye all, i'm sorry for you.
What the fuck are you talking about? It seems that you are pro-Isreal. I don't know I just get that feeling. Since you have made your post as vauge as it could get.

Poor Jews, all they get is their own nation in the f'ing Holy Land. Oh and pretty US tanks.

And then some.

# 4,744 M-16A1 rifles
# 2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
# 1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
# .30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition

And that's the list of shit they got for free.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

[Ace42]

This is such a sad discussion, I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I just can't beleive people can be so blind.

Of course, the IDF soldiers appologising for commiting unprevoked atrocities against innocent Palestinians was us being BLIND. How stupid we are to not know the "truth" that all these Israelis are using the English language in a strictly PRIVATE manner, and what they meant when they said "My friend pointed out an old beggar man, and said "him" so we went to him, took the eggs he was selling, and tipped them on his head, then beat him" they meant "We selflessly rushed a machine-gun nest full of hamas officials meeting with Hitler's clone, and confiscated Palestinian nuclear weapons that they were planning to use on a school"

[DroppinScience]

They need to give up on religion and realize there is more to life.
They need to be dumbed down....maybe we should set up a few hundred McDonalds and a few Starbucks in the area. Set up a Hard Rock cafe and some cheezy frat boy clubs with Usher bommin' out the doors. Start airing "The Swan", "The Littlest Groom" and "Wife Swap". Maybe create "Gaza Idol" or something where they battle it out for pop-stardom. Better yet....they could take their skills off the battlefield and have MC battles. Americans used to fight in the streets...then MTV and Pepsi domesticated all of us and we lived happily ever after.

Hahahahahhaha! :D (y)

[ASsman]

Son of Abraham.

[Ali]

In this thread, you have to choose one or the other, or offer a realistic solution.

Do you want Israel to exist peacefully forever inside its present borders or do you want it destroyed for a Palestinian homeland? Or can you find some peaceful solution? It's pretty obvious which side YOU are on.

[Ali]

So how do we logically solve it? Quit supplying Israel with arms and aid and force them to withdraw from Gaza and the Left Bank.

Simple.

Only problem is, this will never happen.

So, other solution (Bush&Kerry) keep supporting Israel, providing arms and money, turning a Blind Eye to their Nuclear Weapons program and the oppression of Palestinians. Kill all Palestinians and give their homes and lands to the settlers. When all the Palestinians are gone (genocide, anybody?) start on Syria.

[Ali]

I am an Israeli, most of you have rather harsh statements towards Israel....I beleive this is because of sympathy for the underdog,as if Jews wern't the underdog for centuries,the way they live is not a result of Jewish influence... you act as though Israelis are killing machines and that's what Israel is about.......if you at all knew history you wouldn't think so. Israel does what it has to do to defend itself it wouldn't be that way if palestinians were peaceful, in this case they would live amoungst Jews and make friends, and learn about each others cultures......believe me, Jews would have welcomed this. Please don't feel sorry for them because of the way they live by blaming it on the Israeli's. Palestinians have no substantial leader to take care of them Arafat pocketed all of his money to go to his lovely wife in Paris, blame him, blame the extremists who truely rule the palestinian 'nation',and teach children to kill themselves for allah:(when you hear on the news 'Israeli's kill palestinian children' that is who they send to suicide bomb, women and children. Israel never intentionaly for pleasure would EVER kill a woman or child or anyone without reason, Israel defense force has a code of honor and are discharged if it is broken) Israel is not about completely dividing 'nations' of people but to keep Jews protected in a place they can call their own. Yes Israel was developed Post WWII as a state, with good reason, but also it was the Jewish land before Islam was created, before christianity, before buddhism, Catholisism etc. This doesn't mean we don't welcome all of these denomantions but from our history and even our present Israel is there to protect the Jews from the antisemitism that was and still is. Keeping in mind amongst all this the Jews never killed in our history for pleasure, never ruled with vexation, so when you say sink Israel into the Dead sea, think again, Israel is an honest, propoghanda free nation we are a peaceful people. Beleive all the negativity and propaghanda you hear created by extremists but know this, Israel could never sink into the sea, Dead sea or not, we would float, ascend above corruption and impungement like we always have through the slander of our history from others. It makes me sad to here how obscured most of your vision of peace is. Israel vs. Palestine, Palestine vs. Israel we are all humans, I wish Allah would enlighten this simple idea into the minds of Islam, but if we are to live and take care of our people we can't back away from this conflict or it's WWII all over again.Please go to a propaghanda free site and get educated.I'm not saying don't feel sorry for the Palestinians at all, I feel sorry for them, they are ruled by corruption and they need good influence their women arn't free, and their children aren't educated like normal children, this is not the Israeli's fault, their own people abandoned them, above all they need help, but Jews and Israeli's cannot stand for malice....."Take the guns away from the palistinians, there will be peace, take the guns away from the Israeli's there will be no more Israeli's." what would you choose? This post confirms proves beyond any doubt exactly where the problem lies.

if you at all knew history you wouldn't think so Isreal sold arms to South Africa (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/sharonsa.htm) during apartheid. Isreal continue to sell weapons (http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/israel.htm) to any and every country which has the money.

Israel is not about completely dividing 'nations' of people but to keep Jews protected in a place they can call their own unfortunately, that place is called Palestine.

Israel does what it has to do to defend itself it wouldn't be that way if palestinians were peaceful, in this case they would live amoungst Jews and make friends, and learn about each others cultures......believe me, Jews would have welcomed this. Palestinians are not allowed into Isreal.

the palestinian 'nation' 'nation' ? not for long. Soon there will be no Palestinians, once the genocide is finished.

Before you throw up the Anti-Semitism beacon, please understand that I have absolutely no problem with Jewish people, I have many Jewish friends and I have no problem with Isrealis themselves... my issue is with what the Isreali government is doing in Palestine.

[Ali]

Ironically, I'm just an overopinionated cantakerous Hispanic atheist who dislikes the existance of Israel. I probably attained this attitude after going to english.aljazeera.net on a daily basis.

Liberate Palestine! Shut up you dickhead. Palestine doesn't need your fucking support.

[Ali]

This is such a sad discussion, I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I just can't beleive people can be so blind.I've had enough this is a waste of my time. I know what is right and it's not because of bias, It's just history and the negative posters don't know the true history and that's ok you can't convince everyone, the point isn't to convince, just to be content with life but we won't be pushed around at the same time, there is only so much you can do good bye all, i'm sorry for you. Go kiss a Palestinian and take her home to meet your mother.

[Ali]

What the fuck are you talking about? It seems that you are pro-Isreal. I don't know I just get that feeling. Since you have made your post as vauge as it could get.

Poor Jews, all they get is their own nation in the f'ing Holy Land. Oh and pretty US tanks.

And then some.

# 4,744 M-16A1 rifles
# 2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
# 1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
# .30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition

And that's the list of shit they got for free.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html Which they sell on to any regime who has the cash. Nice.

[Spanishbomb808]

Shut up you dickhead. Palestine doesn't need your fucking support.

Dirty Zionist fiend. Go kiss up to your imperialist bedfellows.

[Ali]

[QUOTE=Ali]

Isreal sold arms to South Africa during apartheid. [QUOTE=Ali]

o god just shut up about apartheid already. Fucking western countries just used us as a scapegoat. Apartheid was wrong but god, its over. ANd um yes, what happened in Zimbabwe. Black AND white ppl killed by black ppl but everyon ejust shrugs.Farmers chased off of their land, then the land is given to rich government workers who steal millions in anyways. And look at South Africa today, nothing much has changed,, except rich fat black and corrupt ppl are in government, instead of fat white ppl. On the issue of racism, what about North American Indian Reservations? IN Canada natives were forced to go to messed up cruel catholic schools. Everyone shrugs does nothing.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/evil/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1288230.stm
how could th eworld let that happen?They fail to mention that nowadays, but they never skip an oppurtunity to blabber on about apartheid.
Not as if every SOuth African was responsible for it. I agree that the Israelis are wrong and should stop all the crap they're doing. But please DON't begin all the apartheid crap, or keep on using South Africa as a scapegoat. We're sick of it already. Gaan kak in die mielies, jou poephol. Die Israelis het wapens vir die Boere verkoop, daarom is hulle glad nie soe goed soos hulle se nie. Apartheid was 'n baie, baie slegde ding en ons moet skaam wees vir vat gebeur het. Moenie huil nie as iemand se dat Apartheid sleg was, dit was aaklig! Duisende mense was gemoord, maar jy het niks gesien nie, op die SABC, want dit was deur die Boere gekontroleerd. As die wereld niks gedoen het nie, dan sou ons in dieselfde hol as Zim wees. Ek het daar gewoon in die 70's en 80's en ek weet wat daar aangegaan het. Moenie Zim met SA vergelyk, boetie, dis glad nie dieselfde ding. Ek kan sien dat jy niks weet wat daar anngegaan het, miskien moet jy 'n bietie leer voordat jy weer hier praat.

[Ali]

Dirty Zionist fiend. Go kiss up to your imperialist bedfellows. Go lick a toad, Dogbreath.

[ASsman]

Too many consecutive posts for me to count Ali.

[Spanishbomb808]

Go lick a toad, Dogbreath.

The existance of people like you justifies suicide bombings.

[Ali]

The existance of people like you justifies suicide bombings. And the existance of people like you justifies lobotomies.

[Ali]

Too many consecutive posts for me to count Ali. Not my fault. I only post when most of you are in bed, being 7 hours ahead and all. I go through a thread, commenting whenever I find something, so the posts all end up in a row.

What you want me to do?

[jegtar]

Or better yet how about the 13 year old girl that Israeli soldier emptied his clip into the other day, I believe they pulled 20 bullets out of her. How do you expect there to be peace with such barbarism going on?

"Now I get it! A holy bartender!" -Jay

[Ali]

boetie? well inanyways wat van al die ander atrocities in die wereld? Plaas van om oor apartheid in skool te leer, hoekom kan ons nie leer or aboriginal head hunting in australia en indian head hunting in canada.Suid Afrika gaan nie better nie. Duisinde mense gaan dood van aids en van die reuse crime rate. Ek se nie apartheid is goed nie, maar suid afrika is nog steeds nie goed nie. Mbeki? Zuma? Daarem het Desmond n biekie sense http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4054273.stm
Mandela was n goeie president maar mbeki is nie. Mbeki and sy ouens is korrupt en gee om oor niks, behalve hul mercedes.
Ek wou maar net se moet aseblief nie soos die res van die wereld apartheid die heel tyd gebruik nie. ek raak siek van dit. Oorals waar ek gaan in die wereld noem mense my n racis omdat ek wit en suid afrikans is. Mandela is a hero, to me and my family. Kyk ons is wit. EN wat? Ek was n kind toe did allus gebeur het. Maar my hele lewe bring mense did op, baie hierso in kanada, maar hulle praat nooit oor dinge soos Rwanda, of selfs nou oor Darfur, of oor die mal Katolice Indian skoole wat in kanada was nie. Wat is fout met die wereld?

Your Afrikaans is as kuk as mine, Soutie.

Don't get on your High Horse whenever somebody brings up Apartheid, it makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder and don't try to make it sound like it wasn't so bad, just because there was slavery and genocide in the US, Australia and basically any and everywhere else colonised by Europeeans. Apartheid was institutionalised racism and we were and are hated for it. You were 'just a kid' back then, but you benefitted from an artificially high standard of living as a direct result of the oppression of blacks by the Crunchies and therefore you are hated, whether you had the choice or not.

Anyway, this thread was about Isreal and what they're doing to Palestinians. I see our moderate Isreali has decided to go away and nobody wants to continue with this, so bye bye.