Troubled

[BuddhaMomma]

Isn't anyone else afraid of what Bush will lead us into next?

[American]

Nope. I'm afraid that if people don't stop blaming Bush for everything and start looking at our entire political system, things are going to get worse. The White House can't lead us into things without congress and Bush doesn't fill every chair in congress. The power struggle between the right and left overshadows what is best for our country. I guess blaming Bush is just easier.

[ASsman]

Nope. I'm afraid that if people don't stop blaming Bush for everything and start looking at our entire political system,
Yah, for example I will set a fire many Ohio towns in a few days.

The White House can't lead us into things without congress and Bush doesn't fill every chair in congress.
For example he can't lead us into a fucked up war. Only congress is to blame for poor planning. Also just because he lied about the reasons for invading Iraq doesn't make him any more responsible for it.

The power struggle between the right and left overshadows what is best for our country. I guess blaming Bush is just easier.
Heh yah THE LEFT. This isn't Guatemala there is no LEFT. Yah the power struggle called back scratching. I think you meant to say the power struggle between the far right and the modest right.

[BuddhaMomma]

Thank you American for pointing out that Bush is not the only one to blame. I totally agree. He has put of a lot of his close friends (Aka bushites) in power to join him in making his war hungry dreams reality.

"No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our own soil
No more psychological warfare, to trick us to thinking that we ain't loyal
If we don't serve our own country, we're patronizing a hero
Look in his eyes its all lies
The stars and stripes, they've been swiped, washed out and wiped
And replaced with his own face, Mosh now or die
If I get sniped tonight you know why,
Cause I told you to fight." - Eminem Mosh

[ASsman]

Neo-Cons are at the top of my lists of "blamees".

Noam Chomsky on the State of the Nation, Iraq and the Election (http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=35937&highlight=Chomsky)

[Cashew]

http://www.theocracywatch.org

yes.

Yes indeed.

[American]

Also just because he lied about the reasons for invading Iraq doesn't make him any more responsible for it.

I'm sure that because this doesn't go along with what you want to believe you will find some excuse for it to be false. I just have to offer it to you anyway. More proof that there is more to blame than just a name.

http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

[ASsman]

I don't even know what the fuck we are arguing about anymore.
Vote Bush Cheney '04.

[Cashew]

I'm sure that because this doesn't go along with what you want to believe you will find some excuse for it to be false. I just have to offer it to you anyway. More proof that there is more to blame than just a name.

http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

How many times must you repeat yourself, you have to go after the top of problem, the rest will crumble, bush is the primary problem. he leads the neo-christian movement, therefore we go after him. It's like saying Hitler wasn't the problem, you should blame the soldiers who are conquering countries for him, but you must consider most German soldier were fighting to protect their country, the believed hitlers propaganda, it stemmed from hitler, it stemmed from bush.

[ASsman]

I've lost all interest in continuing this "discussion". Not that I ever had interest, from the mere sight of your first posts I knew I didn't. But I seem to be reaching the point of "Don't give a fuck what you think, Ill go over here and try with these people" attitude, a lot quicker. Thank you. And support our troops, keep them in Baghdad.

It seems you are arguing on an assload of assumptions. In other words basing many arguments on many other arguments. Which have yet to be made, and made correctly.

I quit, good job.

[American]

How many times must you repeat yourself, you have to go after the top of problem, the rest will crumble, bush is the primary problem. he leads the neo-christian movement, therefore we go after him. It's like saying Hitler wasn't the problem, you should blame the soldiers who are conquering countries for him, but you must consider most German soldier were fighting to protect their country, the believed hitlers propaganda, it stemmed from hitler, it stemmed from bush.
You can compare an elected president to a dictator if you like but it is not reasonable. Makes for a bad argument.

And I am a Christian. What is wrong with that? Does it make me a bad person? I have a great family, nice home, and an awesome job that I work very hard at. What's the big deal? Am I asking you to be a Christian? No. Do I respect the fact that you do not appear to be? Yes. Once again we have come to another problem in this country that Bush is not responsible for. A lack of respect. And believe me, there are just as many Christians responsible as people that make comments about Christians such as you have. This lack of repect is everywhere in our country. On all sides. The best thing you can do to stop this is stop bashing people for not having the same views as you. This goes for everyone.

[Cashew]

You can compare an elected president to a dictator if you like but it is not reasonable. Makes for a bad argument.

And I am a Christian. What is wrong with that? Does it make me a bad person? I have a great family, nice home, and an awesome job that I work very hard at. What's the big deal? Am I asking you to be a Christian? No. Do I respect the fact that you do not appear to be? Yes. Once again we have come to another problem in this country that Bush is not responsible for. A lack of respect. And believe me, there are just as many Christians responsible as people that make comments about Christians such as you have. This lack of repect is everywhere in our country. On all sides. The best thing you can do to stop this is stop bashing people for not having the same views as you. This goes for everyone.

Did I ever blame christianity as a whole? No, I blamed the neo-christian, neo-conservative movement. If you would do your homework you would know what Bush has done to the republican party, and how is his "faith" is being opposed upon the rest of the world, and the citizens of the united states who don't want those values forced upon them.

I think religion is a good thing, but not in government.

[ASsman]

One last attempt. Multiple posts from these boards about one of the issues in this vauge discussion.



Re: The Bush Celebration Thread

You're quoting a report that has been discredited by another report? Sorry I don't follow? Which report do the English deem as the truth or as you put it objective truth? So if one discredits the...

Re: The Bush Celebration Thread

The background to the panel is quite interesting. Lord Butler is strongly affiliated with 10 downing street (The UK equivalent of the whitehouse) and thus if anything, biased FOR Blair.

The...

Re: I just dont know?

Yes there is. There is lots of evidence, you just choose not to believe it. He keeps saying that "the whole world agreed with him" - this is a blatant lie. The information Tony Blair took the UK...

Re: Where did all the conservatives go?

In my experience, "facts" tend not to be fictitious.



That is what they say, that is not what the Butler report says. Or did Bush *AND* Kerry keep quite and refuse to share intelligence with their...

Re: WHERE are the WMDs??

Actually, if you check the Butler report, you'll see the intelligence that was provided was highly dubious. Bush et al had access to the whole story (unlike the UK house of commons who were issued...

Re: This is why we don't want the UN in charge of US security....

Actually, England only went to war based on faulty information. As the Butler report stated, the dossier given to MPs who voted on the war was misleading.
If you actually read it, you will see he...

Re: Vote with your heart this election

I don't trust "factcheck" - unless I can personally verify the sources I tend to treat them with extreme skepticism. I already caught them bending the analysis of the Butler report.

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=373338&highlight=Butler+Report#post373338
(read that)


(all of these are mere tidbits, none prove anything as they are obviously. But I won't continue wasting energy if I do not expect results)

It goes on, I you wish I will make a more understandable post. That is if you even care to listen. Or continue to blab about how Bush is innocent.

[Cashew]

Ass man, your my hero.

[Ace42]

The White House can't lead us into things without congress and Bush doesn't fill every chair in congress.

11. President Bush usurped the Constitutional power of Congress as a means of securing power to commit crimes against peace, war crimes, and other high crimes.

President Bush intentionally usurped Congressional power, ignored its authority, and failed and refused to consult with the Congress. He deliberately misled, deceived, concealed and made false representations to the Congress to prevent its free deliberation and informed exercise of legislature power. President Bush individually ordered a naval blockade against Iraq, itself an act of war. He switched U.S. forces from a wholly defensive position and capability to an offensive capacity for aggression against Iraq without consultation with and contrary to assurances given to the Congress. He secured legislation approving enforcement of UN resolutions vesting absolute discretion in any nation, providing no guidelines and requiring no reporting to the UN, knowing he intended to destroy the ammed forces and civilian economy of Iraq. Those acts were undertaken to enable him to commit crimes against peace and war crimes.

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11

His daddy got away with it, you think junior can't? Take a gander at the people charged. The names are... Familiar somehow. Oh yes, EXACTLY THE SAME PEOPLE.

[American]

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm#11

His daddy got away with it, you think junior can't? Take a gander at the people charged. The names are... Familiar somehow. Oh yes, EXACTLY THE SAME PEOPLE.
Propaganda

[Ace42]

See, this is why the UoM found 80% of Bush supporters to be morons. For it to be propaganda, it has to be "a lie" or a "Misrepresentation."

That website was based on an official warcrimes tribunal chaired by Ramsey Clark, former attourney general of the US. But let me guess, "That's why he isn't attourney general anymore. BECAUSE HE WAS A COMMIE BENEDICT ARNOLD!"

Just because you don't want to hear what it says, doesn't make it wrong.

[ASsman]

Read his sig and weep, you will soon be liberated from your body. Atleast that is what Darwin would theorize.

[American]

That website was based on an official warcrimes tribunal chaired by Ramsey Clark, former attourney general of the US. But let me guess, "That's why he isn't attourney general anymore. BECAUSE HE WAS A COMMIE BENEDICT ARNOLD!"

Just because you don't want to hear what it says, doesn't make it wrong.
Looks like a credible source to me,,,,,

http://www.deoxy.org/warnings.htm

[Ace42]

Yeah, good point.

But hang on, what's this?

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/bookinfo.htm

Oh, wow, amazing. The website is JUST HOSTING EXTRACTS FROM A BOOK THAT IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENTHOGENS WHATSOEVER.

Let me guess, because the content was reproduced on a website you don't like, that retroactively discredits the source material!

Prick.

[American]

Yeah, good point.

But hang on, what's this?

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/bookinfo.htm

Oh, wow, amazing. The website is JUST HOSTING EXTRACTS FROM A BOOK THAT IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENTHOGENS WHATSOEVER.

Let me guess, because the content was reproduced on a website you don't like, that retroactively discredits the source material!

Prick.
OK, try these out.

http://www.shadow.autono.net/sin001/clark.htm

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/06/21/clark/

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/2/213936.shtml

This is the author of the propaganda that you mentioned earlier right?

[Ace42]

This is the author of the propaganda that you mentioned earlier right?

He was the chairman of the international tribunal, yes.

Your point?

I find it amusing that those sources you cite condemn him for demanding "due process" to "tyrants." For example "he sides with people that no-one with a full deck would side with."

I think that is indicative of the ignorance of current US society. "Milosovic is evil, we know he is evil, so we don't need a trial to prove he is evil!" Yes, very sanitary. Anyone who has a problem with that (for example, any right thinking human being who believes that the law should be applied evenly and equitably to anyone, irrespective of the scale of the charges brought gainst them) must be a "commie hypocrit radical!"

However, now you have tried an ad hominem attack on the source cite, and failed. And tried an ad hominem attack against the chair of a large (dozens of independant individuals) tribunal, and failed. And already prejudiced yourself by repeatedly using the term "propoganda" in a perjorative sense without any sort of back-up whatsoever, would you like to take issue with any of the criticisms he actually makes?

For example, charge number 2:

President Bush led a sophisticated campaign to demonize Saddam Hussein, calling him a Hitler, repeatedly citing reports - which he knew were false - of the murder of hundreds of incubator babies, accusing Iraq of using chemical weapons on his own people and on the Iranians knowing U.S intelligence believed the reports untrue.

Remember old Colon Powell going to the UN with his tape of "eye witness reports" of the incubator babies? I do. And I remember that it was entirely fictitious and known to be so. Google for it.

Intentionally using lies to attempt to justify a war is a crime against peace.

Or, what about #3 ? That the US destroyed facilities essential to civillian life? The Iraqis have been without power on and off for a year. And do you know what happens to medical supplies and food when you have no power to refrigerate it? Guess how quickly that happens in a desertified nation. On the BBC news today, reports of the red cross being denied access to Fallujah to treat the injured. This is against international law (like the whole war is).

What about #4 ? Going to tell me the US doesn't bomb residential areas? They took out 3 civillian news services in one day. This is a war crime. They nearly killed John Simpson (BBC reporter) when they strafed the convoy he was on. They have taken out UK soldiers in friendly fire incidents - you think civillians are more or less at risk than fully armed and trained UK soldiers?

#7 - check the news. Live footage of US soldiers using incendiary rounds (illegal) against people in Fallujah. On the TV today. Tune in. In the previous war they used incendiary devices indescriminately (also illegal)

#10 - He obstructed the UN? What do you call declaring war thus preventing UN weapons inspectors from doing their job? (Which would've shown no WMDs, as we found out!)

#12 - Can you say "depleted uranium" ?

#13 - The US is protecting Iranian insurgents in Iraq, as I linked to earlier.

#14 - No electricity = no refrigeration = no medication.

#16 - the current Iraqi government has declared martial law.

#18 - 80% of Bush supporters do not know the facts about the illegal war. And no WMDs were found

#19 - What is the occupation if not so.

These points are all going on today, and I have seen them on the news with my own eyes. They ARE warcrimes, and are clearly visible.

So if you are going to try to disregard them, you have to do better than "oh, the list was on a drugs related website" or "Oh, Ramsay Clark is called a commy by a bunch of flag-waving morons"

[American]

I am quickly finding out that you are nothing more than an anti-war simpleton. No matter what the discussion is, you ramble on about the war in Iraq. I have a suggestion. Move there. If it is such a great place with great people, move there and fight against the U.S.! I'm sorry that you feel that it is the ONLY issue facing our country and world today. I'm sorry that there are poor people in bad conditions in the rest of the world but that doesn't pay my bills. Saving lives in Iraq doesn't do my job for me so I can provide for my family. It is unfortunate, but it is the world that we live in. You know, when I look at my family, my job, my future, my retirement, my house, my happiness, I could give a fuck about a war going on in Iraq. It is only when I have time to take a break from the things that I have to do each day to survive in this world that I care. Are you even from America? If so, Jane Fonda called and said that she wants her act back! Concern yourself with ALL of the issues, not just a war.

[Ace42]

I am quickly finding out that you are nothing more than an anti-war simpleton.

I am quickly finding out that you are just a generic troll who is too happy living in his dellusional fantasy world to come out and join us in what we here like to call "reality."

No matter what the discussion is, you ramble on about the war in Iraq.

Assman brings up war in a topic quite clearly concerned about war, and that makes me the one going off topic? Yah, right. But pardon me for having a profound concern about an illegal war resulting in widespread death and misery.

I have a suggestion. Move there. If it is such a great place with great people, move there and fight against the U.S.!

Straw man argument. Another example of your inability to actually listen to what other people have to say without dismissing it out of hand. Where did I say it was "a great place" ? And it is certainly a much worse place now that the US has made it a death-trap. May I remind you that it is the US's invasion that has lead to the wide-spread hostage taking. It is your country which has made it considerably less safe for me to go there.

I'm sorry that you feel that it is the ONLY issue facing our country and world today. I'm sorry that there are poor people in bad conditions in the rest of the world but that doesn't pay my bills.

If you are so sorry, why are you so reluctant to acknowledge them in discussion?

Saving lives in Iraq doesn't do my job for me so I can provide for my family.

However, if your countrymen got on with domestic jobs instead of GOING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND KILLING PEOPLE. Then not only would you (plural) have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, but also you'd have to work significantly less hard, as your taxes wouldn't be paying for their guns and tanks, being used to kill innocent people.

It is only when I have time to take a break from the things that I have to do each day to survive in this world that I care.

Wow, it must be so hard for you, being shot at by marines, being bombed and hit by missiles...

If so, Jane Fonda called and said that she wants her act back! Concern yourself with ALL of the issues, not just a war.

That's what Neville Chamberlain said.

However, aside from moronic issues such as abortion and other such ignorant retrogressive bollocks, name 3 that wouldn't be significantly elliviated by using the massive (and I mean MASSIVE) amounts of money wasted in this imperialistic war to treat them?

http://www.cdi.org/budget/2004/world-military-spending.cfm

When you look at them Benjamins, ask yourself how many "issues" they could make disappear.

[American]

You are delusional.
Even though I think that you need serious help and I will ignore you form now on, I will pray for you.

Peace

[Ace42]

And that, lady and gentlemen, is how we prove that, alias or not, he is a generic mindless troll. Please adjust your ignore lists accordingly, I think it is quite clear he has nothing worth listening to.

[ASsman]

*shakes clutched fists in the air*

[American]

And that, lady and gentlemen, is how we prove that, alias or not, he is a generic mindless troll. Please adjust your ignore lists accordingly, I think it is quite clear he has nothing worth listening to.
Don't make me cyber go to eXistenZ and cyber kick your ass. punk. If you judge me from a few posts then you are nothing more than a superficial, unintelligent, waste of a good man's load.

[Rosie Cotton]

Don't make me cyber go to eXistenZ and cyber kick your ass. punk. If you judge me from a few posts then you are nothing more than a superficial, unintelligent, waste of a good man's load.

Fucktard

[Rancid_Beasties]

American, I hate it when Ace42 ignores people like you....its fun to watch him and assman locking in to cretuns like you.

[ASsman]

Mmm cretuns, those are the ones in salads right? Maybe cretins?

And that word holds a double "Powee".

cre·tin·ism Audio pronunciation of "cretinism." ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krtn-zm)
n.

A congenital condition caused by a deficiency of thyroid hormone during prenatal development and characterized in childhood by dwarfed stature, mental retardation, dystrophy of the bones, and a low basal metabolism. Also called congenital myxedema.


cre·tin Audio pronunciation of "cretins" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krtn)
n.

1. A person afflicted with cretinism.
2. Slang. An idiot.

Pick one American.

[Ali]

Mmm cretuns, those are the ones in salads right? Maybe cretins?

And that word holds a double "Powee".

cre·tin·ism Audio pronunciation of "cretinism." ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krtn-zm)
n.

A congenital condition caused by a deficiency of thyroid hormone during prenatal development and characterized in childhood by dwarfed stature, mental retardation, dystrophy of the bones, and a low basal metabolism. Also called congenital myxedema.


cre·tin Audio pronunciation of "cretins" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krtn)
n.

1. A person afflicted with cretinism.
2. Slang. An idiot.

Pick one American. Cretin and crouton are both French words, absorbed into English. American is not allowed to use French words. He didn't vote for Bush, as you ASSume. Which one is he, then?

[ASsman]

I know it was a joke, obviously. Meh, voting for Kerry not as stupid but I would still consider it to be an ignorant choice. Anyways as for calling him an idiot, I'm not basing it on assumptions, as he enjoys so much to do.

[Whois]

And that, lady and gentlemen, is how we prove that, alias or not, he is a generic mindless troll. Please adjust your ignore lists accordingly, I think it is quite clear he has nothing worth listening to.

(y)

[Rancid_Beasties]

Mmm cretuns, those are the ones in salads right? Maybe cretins?

Damn, that means I've been misspelling one of my favourite words for years...meh croutons get eaten or mushed up in boiling pumpkin soup, cretins are idiots, so either way its sort of an insult....isn't it??

[Ali]

Damn, that means I've been misspelling one of my favourite words for years...meh croutons get eaten or mushed up in boiling pumpkin soup, cretins are idiots, so either way its sort of an insult....isn't it?? You can't call them croutons any more in the US, they are now called "Freedom-bits-of-fried-bread-in-your-soup". And you can't use Cretin, either, it's Republican.

[Rancid_Beasties]

You can't call them croutons any more in the US, they are now called "Freedom-bits-of-fried-bread-in-your-soup". And you can't use Cretin, either, it's Republican.

I'm not in the US so I am allowed to use both words :p