a thread for "Jesus Talk"....

[100% ILL]

And to think the Bible is without error or corruption, is naive.


http://www.carm.org/questions/textualevidence.htm


Manuscript evidence for superior
New Testament reliability


The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.1 If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

[100% ILL]

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/sinners.htm



SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD



-Their foot shall slide in due time- Deut. 32:35



In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving Israelites, who were God's visible people, and who lived under the means of grace; but who, notwithstanding all God's wonderful works towards them, remained (as ver. 28.) void of counsel, having no understanding in them. Under all the cultivations of heaven, they brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit; as in the two verses next preceding the text. The expression I have chosen for my text, Their foot shall slide in due time, seems to imply the following doings, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Israelites were exposed.

1. That they were always exposed to destruction; as one that stands or walks in slippery places is always exposed to fall. This is implied in the manner of their destruction coming upon them, being represented by their foot sliding. The same is expressed, Psalm 73:18. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction."

2. It implies, that they were always exposed to sudden unexpected destruction. As he that walks in slippery places is every moment liable to fall, he cannot foresee one moment whether he shall stand or fall the next; and when he does fall, he falls at once without warning: Which is also expressed in Psalm 73:18, 19. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment!"

3. Another thing implied is, that they are liable to fall of themselves, without being thrown down by the hand of another; as he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down.

4. That the reason why they are not fallen already, and do not fall now, is only that God's appointed time is not come. For it is said, that when that due time, or appointed time comes, their foot shall slide. Then they shall be left to fall, as they are inclined by their own weight. God will not hold them up in these slippery places any longer, but will let them go; and then at that very instant, they shall fall into destruction; as he that stands on such slippery declining ground, on the edge of a pit, he cannot stand alone, when he is let go he immediately falls and is lost.

The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this. "There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.
The truth of this observation may appear by the following considerations.

1. There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men's hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.-He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defense from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God's enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?

2. They deserve to be cast into hell; so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God's using his power at any moment to destroy them. Yea, on the contrary, justice calls aloud for an infinite punishment of their sins. Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, "Cut it down, why cumbereth it the ground?" Luke xiii. 7. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God's mere will, that holds it back.

3. They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. They do not only justly deserve to be cast down thither, but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John iii. 18. "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is, John viii. 23. "Ye are from beneath." And thither be is bound; it is the place that justice, and God's word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assign to him.

4. They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.
So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.

5. The devil stands ready to fall upon them, and seize them as his own, at what moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their souls in his possession, and under his dominion. The scripture represents them as his goods, Luke 11:12. The devils watch them; they are ever by them at their right hand; they stand waiting for them, like greedy hungry lions that see their prey, and expect to have it, but are for the present kept back. If God should withdraw his hand, by which they are restrained, they would in one moment fly upon their poor souls. The old serpent is gaping for them; hell opens its mouth wide to receive them; and if God should permit it, they would be hastily swallowed up and lost.

6. There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell fire, if it were not for God's restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men, a foundation for the torments of hell. There are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell fire. These principles are active and powerful, exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in scripture compared to the troubled sea, Isa. 57:20. For the present, God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further;" but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all before it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God's restraints, whereas if it were let loose, it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into a fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone.

7. It is no security to wicked men for one moment, that there are no visible means of death at hand. It is no security to a natural man, that he is now in health, and that he does not see which way he should now immediately go out of the world by any accident, and that there is no visible danger in any respect in his circumstances. The manifold and continual experience of the world in all ages, shows this is no evidence, that a man is not on the very brink of eternity, and that the next step will not be into another world. The unseen, unthought-of ways and means of persons going suddenly out of the world are innumerable and inconceivable. Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they will not bear their weight, and these places are not seen. The arrows of death fly unseen at noon-day; the sharpest sight cannot discern them. God has so many different unsearchable ways of taking wicked men out of the world and sending them to hell, that there is nothing to make it appear, that God had need to be at the expense of a miracle, or go out of the ordinary course of his providence, to destroy any wicked man, at any moment. All the means that there are of sinners going out of the world, are so in God's hands, and so universally and absolutely subject to his power and determination, that it does not depend at all the less on the mere will of God, whether sinners shall at any moment go to hell, than if means were never made use of, or at all concerned in the case.

8. Natural men's prudence and care to preserve their own lives, or the care of others to preserve them, do not secure them a moment. To this, divine providence and universal experience do also bear testimony. There is this clear evidence that men's own wisdom is no security to them from death; that if it were otherwise we should see some difference between the wise and politic men of the world, and others, with regard to their liableness to early and unexpected death: but how is it in fact? Eccles. ii. 16. "How dieth the wise man? even as the fool."

9. All wicked men's pains and contrivance which they use to escape hell, while they continue to reject Christ, and so remain wicked men, do not secure them from hell one moment. Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail. They hear indeed that there are but few saved, and that the greater part of men that have died heretofore are gone to hell; but each one imagines that he lays out matters better for his own escape than others have done. He does not intend to come to that place of torment; he says within himself, that he intends to take effectual care, and to order matters so for himself as not to fail.

But the foolish children of men miserably delude themselves in their own schemes, and in confidence in their own strength and wisdom; they trust to nothing but a shadow. The greater part of those who heretofore have lived under the same means of grace, and are now dead, are undoubtedly gone to hell; and it was not because they were not as wise as those who are now alive: it was not because they did not lay out matters as well for themselves to secure their own escape. If we could speak with them, and inquire of them, one by one, whether they expected, when alive, and when they used to hear about hell ever to be the subjects of that misery: we doubtless, should hear one and another reply, "No, I never intended to come here: I had laid out matters otherwise in my mind; I thought I should contrive well for myself: I thought my scheme good. I intended to take effectual care; but it came upon me unexpected; I did not look for it at that time, and in that manner; it came as a thief: Death outwitted me: God's wrath was too quick for me. Oh, my cursed foolishness! I was flattering myself, and pleasing myself with vain dreams of what I would do hereafter; and when I was saying, Peace and safety, then suddenly destruction came upon me.

10. God has laid himself under no obligation, by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant.

So that, whatever some have imagined and pretended about promises made to natural men's earnest seeking and knocking, it is plain and manifest, that whatever pains a natural man takes in religion, whatever prayers he makes, till he believes in Christ, God is under no manner of obligation to keep him a moment from eternal destruction.

So that, thus it is that natural men are held in the hand of God, over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, his anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of his wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold them up one moment; the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out: and they have no interest in any Mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of, all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged forbearance of an incensed God.

APPLICATION

The use of this awful subject may be for awakening unconverted persons in this congregation. This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ.-That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone, is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of, there is nothing between you and hell but the air; it is only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.

You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but do not see the hand of God in it; but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his band, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it.

Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and if God should let you go, you would immediately sink and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf, and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock. Were it not for the sovereign pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption, not willingly; the sun does not willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and Satan; the earth does not willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air does not willingly serve you for breath to maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God's enemies. God's creatures are good, and were made for men to serve God with, and do not willingly subserve to any other purpose, and groan when they are abused to purposes so directly contrary to their nature and end. And the world would spew you out, were it not for the sovereign hand of him who hath subjected it in hope. There are black clouds of God's wrath now hanging directly over your heads, full of the dreadful storm, and big with thunder; and were it not for the restraining hand of God, it would immediately burst forth upon you. The sovereign pleasure of God, for the present, stays his rough wind; otherwise it would come with fury, and your destruction would come like a whirlwind, and you would be like the chaff of the summer threshing floor.

The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the mean time is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If God should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood. Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God. However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for destruction came suddenly upon most of them; when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, Peace and safety: now they see, that those things on which they depended for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment. And consider here more particularly

1. Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God. If it were only the wrath of man, though it were of the most potent prince, it would be comparatively little to be regarded. The wrath of kings is very much dreaded, especially of absolute monarchs, who have the possessions and lives of their subjects wholly in their power, to be disposed of at their mere will. Prov. 20:2. "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: Whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul." The subject that very much enrages an arbitrary prince, is liable to suffer the most extreme torments that human art can invent, or human power can inflict. But the greatest earthly potentates in their greatest majesty and strength, and when clothed in their greatest terrors, are but feeble, despicable worms of the dust, in comparison of the great and almighty Creator and King of heaven and earth. It is but little that they can do, when most enraged, and when they have exerted the utmost of their fury. All the kings of the earth, before God, are as grasshoppers; they are nothing, and less than nothing: both their love and their hatred is to be despised. The wrath of the great King of kings, is as much more terrible than theirs, as his majesty is greater. Luke 12:4, 5. "And I say unto you, my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that, have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: fear him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell: yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

2. It is the fierceness of his wrath that you are exposed to. We often read of the fury of God; as in Isaiah lix. 18. "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So Isaiah 66:15. "For behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." And in many other places. So, Rev. 19:15, we read of "the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible. If it had only been said, "the wrath of God," the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful: but it is "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! the fierceness of Jehovah! Oh, how dreadful must that be! Who can utter or conceive what such expressions carry in them! But it is also "the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." As though there would be a very great manifestation of his almighty power in what the fierceness of his wrath should inflict, as though omnipotence should be as it were enraged, and exerted, as men are wont to exert their strength in the fierceness of their wrath. Oh! then, what will be the consequence! What will become of the poor worms that shall suffer it! Whose hands can be strong? And whose heart can endure? To what a dreadful, inexpressible, inconceivable depth of misery must the poor creature be sunk who shall be the subject of this!

Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity. When God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom; he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much in any other sense, than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires. Nothing shall be withheld, because it is so hard for you to bear. Ezek. viii. 18. "Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity you; this is a day of mercy; you may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to your welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock," Prov. 1:25, 26, &c.

How awful are those words, Isa. 63:3, which are the words of the great God. "I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." It is perhaps impossible to conceive of words that carry in them greater manifestations of these three things, vis. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation. If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favour, that instead of that, he will only tread you under foot. And though he will know that you cannot bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he will not regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he will crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment. He will not only hate you, but he will have you, in the utmost contempt: no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is. God hath had it on his heart to show to angels and men, both how excellent his love is, and also how terrible his wrath is. Sometimes earthly kings have a mind to show how terrible their wrath is, by the extreme punishments they would execute on those that would provoke them. Nebuchadnezzar, that mighty and haughty monarch of the Chaldean empire, was willing to show his wrath when enraged with Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego; and accordingly gave orders that the burning fiery furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was before; doubtless, it was raised to the utmost degree of fierceness that human art could raise it. But the great God is also willing to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies. Rom. 9:22. "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endure with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?" And seeing this is his design, and what he has determined, even to show how terrible the unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is, he will do it to effect. There will be something accomplished and brought to pass that will be dreadful with a witness. When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner, and the wretch is actually suffering the infinite weight and power of his indignation, then will God call upon the whole universe to behold that awful majesty and mighty power that is to be seen in it. Isa. 33:12-14. "And the people shall be as the burnings of lime, as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites," &c.

Thus it will be with you that are in an unconverted state, if you continue in it; the infinite might, and majesty, and terribleness of the omnipotent God shall be magnified upon you, in the ineffable strength of your torments. You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty. Isa. lxvi. 23, 24. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
4. It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?"

How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in the danger of this great wrath and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious, they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old! There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have. It may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation, that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But, alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder, if some that are now present should not be in hell in a very short time, even before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some persons, that now sit here, in some seats of this meeting-house, in health, quiet and secure, should be there before to-morrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest will be there in a little time! your damnation does not slumber; it will come swiftly, and, in all probability, very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder that you are not already in hell. It is doubtless the case of some whom you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you. Their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned hopeless souls give for one day's opportunity such as you now enjoy!

And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield*, where they are flocking from day to day to Christ?

Are there not many here who have lived long in the world, and are not to this day born again? and so are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and have done nothing ever since they have lived, but treasure up wrath against the day of wrath? Oh, sirs, your case, in an especial manner, is extremely dangerous. Your guilt and hardness of heart is extremely great. Do you not see how generally persons of your years are passed over and left, in the present remarkable and wonderful dispensation of God's mercy? You had need to consider yourselves, and awake thoroughly out of sleep. You cannot bear the fierceness and wrath of the infinite God.-And you, young men, and young women, will you neglect this precious season which you now enjoy, when so many others of your age are renouncing all youthful vanities, and flocking to Christ? You especially have now an extraordinary opportunity; but if you neglect it, it will soon be with you as with those persons who spent all the precious days of youth in sin, and are now come to such a dreadful pass in blindness and hardness. And you, children, who are unconverted, do not you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God, who is now angry with you every day and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now harken to the loud calls of God's word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, a day of such great favours to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others. Men's hearts harden, and their guilt increases apace at such a day as this, if they neglect their souls; and never was there so great danger of such persons being given up to hardness of heart and blindness of mind. God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the greater part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on the great out-pouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles' days; the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you, you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God's Spirit, and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the axe is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree which brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down and cast into the fire.

Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation: Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."



*A town in the neighborhood.

[Qdrop]

http://www.carm.org/questions/textualevidence.htm


Manuscript evidence for superior
New Testament reliability


The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.1 If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

so they've been translated and re-copied more accurately.
yay.

that, IN NO WAY, means that thier accounts are true.

so if the fable of "The Cat who flew over the mountain" was accurately preserved and translated over 3000 years....does that mean the cat actually flew over the mountain?

do you even think in a logical manner about these things anymore?

[100% ILL]

By that I suppose you mean do I think? Am I a thinking Christian, or do I blindly follow what I've been indocrinated with?
Well the answer is I tend to think verses follow blind fallacies. Which is why I cannot agree with the evolutional theory.

If all we are is what we are then in my opinion that is a sad state of affairs. I personally believe that we were designed by a much more intelligent being than ourselves. I will agree, that way of thinking does not come without faith.

However, The evidence of a Creator seems so incredibly obvious to me and many others,while science goes about trying to prove the origin of man without God. Wonderful, but quite simply I see it as this. You don't want there to be a God, so you go about life begging the question and proving yourselves right. Preach it long enough and before long God is a dogmatic idea propigated by religious zealots who are after your money.

And I could point you to an equal number of web sites that speak of creation science and the problems in the theory of evolution, but you would simply laugh at me. Oh well here's one anyway http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-179a.htm

Here's a portion of an article I was recently reading from Stephen Hawkings web site about the beginning of time. While I know that he disagrees with Creation, he is quite intelligent (duh) and I find this of interst in particular.

"It was therefore not surprising that until recently, the universe was thought to be essentially static, and unchanging in time. On the other hand, it must have been obvious, that society is evolving in culture and technology. This indicates that the present phase of human history can not have been going for more than a few thousand years. Otherwise, we would be more advanced than we are. It was therefore natural to believe that the human race, and maybe the whole universe, had a beginning in the fairly recent past. However, many people were unhappy with the idea that the universe had a beginning, because it seemed to imply the existence of a supernatural being who created the universe. They preferred to believe that the universe, and the human race, had existed forever. Their explanation for human progress was that there had been periodic floods, or other natural disasters, which repeatedly set back the human race to a primitive state."

The evidence is there for a Creation argument but is largly ignored, because "man" is simply too smart to simply believe in Creation by an infinite being such as God. There are many different sciences in many different fields , and anyone could educate themselves and study in his chosen field for ab entire lifetime adn still not reason it all out. And yet God Created it all. Richard Dawkins, author of The Blind Watchmaker and one of the world's preeminent evolutionists, was right when he said that Darwin made the world safe for atheism. It's because evolution seemed to explain things that used to require the existence of God to explain them that Darwinism became so popular and accepted within ten to fifteen years after Origin of Species was published in 1859. It's precisely because God is out of the picture that evolution is so appealing.
Evolution is claimed to be a fact, but you can't have the fact of evolution unless you have the fact of abiogenesis. Yet nobody knows how such a thing could ever take place. And if life can't be shown to have come from non-life, then what?
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-374.htm


http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-354.htm


GLOBAL WARMING AND THE FLOOD
- IMPACT No. 294 December 1997
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.*

© Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved
Introduction

If the Flood really happened as described in Genesis, then the earth's atmosphere, ocean, and crust would have been severely disrupted. Following the Flood, it would have taken thousands of years for these systems to return to a new equilibrium and even then, these systems would continue to exhibit slow changes. It is widely recognized that small changes in the ocean will have large influences on the atmosphere. Not only does the ocean contain over 300 times more mass than the atmosphere, but it also contains over 1000 times more heat energy than the atmosphere. A change of only a few degrees in the sea-surface temperature will exchange large quantities of energy with the atmosphere. The exchange of water vapor, carbon dioxide, and other constituents between the ocean and the atmosphere are also important, particularly when the ocean temperature changes. Some of these constituents can have important climatic effects.....

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-294.htm

[Qdrop]

By that I suppose you mean do I think? Am I a thinking Christian, or do I blindly follow what I've been indocrinated with?
Well the answer is I tend to think verses follow blind fallacies. Which is why I cannot agree with the evolutional theory.

oh jesus fuck.......where do i begin?


If all we are is what we are then in my opinion that is a sad state of affairs. I personally believe that we were designed by a much more intelligent being than ourselves. I will agree, that way of thinking does not come without faith.

exactly. you gave away your hand.....you believe because you WANT it to be true.


However, The evidence of a Creator seems so incredibly obvious to me and many others,

no....it doesn't. you have to consciously blunt you own intellect on a constant basis and shield it from logic to protect your beliefs. it must be very tiring.



You don't want there to be a God, so you go about life begging the question and proving yourselves right.

not true.
i would LOVE for there to be a heaven! who doesn't want to live forever?!
i don't want to just die....and have that be that.

but wanting it to be real....doesn't make it so....

that is something you have not come to grips with.
you are to afraid to let go.
you are an emotional cripple of sorts.
and religion is your crutch.


And I could point you to an equal number of web sites that speak of creation science and the problems in the theory of evolution, but you would simply laugh at me. Oh well here's one anyway http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-179a.htm


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
just fucking read this whole site! (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html)
i have directed you to this site about 5 times.
it answers all of your questions and attacks on evolution soundly....including abiogenisis.
all of them.
therefore, you can no longer make any creation-based attacks on the scientific validity of evolution.
you cannot.
it's over.
you lost that part.


Here's a portion of an article I was recently reading from Stephen Hawkings web site about the beginning of time. While I know that he disagrees with Creation, he is quite intelligent (duh) and I find this of interst in particular.

"It was therefore not surprising that until recently, the universe was thought to be essentially static, and unchanging in time. On the other hand, it must have been obvious, that society is evolving in culture and technology. This indicates that the present phase of human history can not have been going for more than a few thousand years. Otherwise, we would be more advanced than we are. It was therefore natural to believe that the human race, and maybe the whole universe, had a beginning in the fairly recent past. However, many people were unhappy with the idea that the universe had a beginning, because it seemed to imply the existence of a supernatural being who created the universe. They preferred to believe that the universe, and the human race, had existed forever. Their explanation for human progress was that there had been periodic floods, or other natural disasters, which repeatedly set back the human race to a primitive state."

a horendous misquote..out of context of course.

i own most of Hawkings major publications....and i assure you he holds NO SUPPORT for a young earth theory or any anti-evolution stance.
to say otherwise make you look like a swindler, complete with a handle bar mustache that you twirl while you type and snicker.


The evidence is there for a Creation argument but is largly ignored, because "man" is simply too smart to simply believe in Creation by an infinite being such as God. There are many different sciences in many different fields , and anyone could educate themselves and study in his chosen field for ab entire lifetime adn still not reason it all out. And yet God Created it all. Richard Dawkins, author of The Blind Watchmaker and one of the world's preeminent evolutionists, was right when he said that Darwin made the world safe for atheism. It's because evolution seemed to explain things that used to require the existence of God to explain them that Darwinism became so popular and accepted within ten to fifteen years after Origin of Species was published in 1859. It's precisely because God is out of the picture that evolution is so appealing.

and this is GOOD thing.


Evolution is claimed to be a fact, but you can't have the fact of evolution unless you have the fact of abiogenesis. Yet nobody knows how such a thing could ever take place. And if life can't be shown to have come from non-life, then what?

that is answered on the talkorigins.org site.......

so you can no longer make that statement.
done.


GLOBAL WARMING AND THE FLOOD
- IMPACT No. 294 December 1997
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.*

© Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved
Introduction

If the Flood really happened as described in Genesis, then the earth's atmosphere, ocean, and crust would have been severely disrupted. Following the Flood, it would have taken thousands of years for these systems to return to a new equilibrium and even then, these systems would continue to exhibit slow changes. It is widely recognized that small changes in the ocean will have large influences on the atmosphere. Not only does the ocean contain over 300 times more mass than the atmosphere, but it also contains over 1000 times more heat energy than the atmosphere. A change of only a few degrees in the sea-surface temperature will exchange large quantities of energy with the atmosphere. The exchange of water vapor, carbon dioxide, and other constituents between the ocean and the atmosphere are also important, particularly when the ocean temperature changes. Some of these constituents can have important climatic effects.....


on the site.
your argument is defeated.
do not repeat it.

[Qdrop]

I am sorry to come off as an elitist prick on some of my replies (ala ACe), but it is just maddening to see repeated the same arguments over and over AFTER they have been succuessfully explained or defeated.

if you ask: "no one knows what 2+2 is..."

and i or someone else replys: "yeah we do...it's 4. here are is following mathmatical explanation to back it up...."

and then, 2 days later....i see you post "no one knows what 2+2 is..."

it's just infuriating.

every attack or question you have posed, against evolution particularly, has been answered soundly....
you need to respect that and this board by acknowledging that and not asking the same question, ect. later.....

it's just a respect thing......
sorry.

[100% ILL]

I read through your link. I especially liked this one.http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#building

And no I never grow tired of this. Who cares if you come of as an elitest prick, there are worse things right? Such as a narrow minded religious dogmist. But I continue

I like this one better however

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-273.htm

A RESOURCE FOR ANSWERING THE CRITICS OF NOAH'S ARK
- IMPACT No. 273 March 1996
by John Woodmorappe*

© Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved

How many animals did the Ark actually carry, and how did Noah get all those animals on the Ark? How could eight people possibly care for so many thousands of animals, and how could such a small crew deal with tons of manure on a daily basis? How could the koala, which only eats fresh Eucalyptus leaves, be maintained on the Ark for an entire year? Add a thousand and one other similar questions to these. For centuries, skeptics have argued against the veracity of the account of Noah's Ark and the global Flood, gloating over its supposed impossibility. In recent years, such arguments have come thick and fast from modern anti-creationists who have largely parroted the earlier critics of the Ark.


http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-330.htm

THE SCIENTIFIC CASE AGAINST EVOLUTION: A SUMMARY* PART I
- IMPACT No. 330 December 2000
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.**

© Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved

Belief in evolution is a remarkable phenomenon. It is a belief passionately defended by the scientific establishment, despite the lack of any observable scientific evidence for macroevolution (that is, evolution from one distinct kind of organism into another). This odd situation is briefly documented here by citing recent statements from leading evolutionists admitting their lack of proof. These statements inadvertently show that evolution on any significant scale does not occur at present, and never happened in the past.
Evolution Is Not Happening Now

First of all, the lack of a case for evolution is clear from the fact that no one has ever seen it happen. If it were a real process, evolution should still be occurring, and there should be many "transitional" forms that we could observe. What we see instead, of course, is an array of distinct "kinds" of plants and animals with many varieties within each kind, but with very clear—and apparently—unbridgeable gaps between the kinds. That is, for example, there are many varieties of dogs and many varieties of cats, but no "dats" or "cogs." Such variation is often called microevolution, and these minor horizontal (or downward) changes occur fairly often, but such changes are not true "vertical" evolution.

Evolutionary geneticists have often experimented on fruit flies and other rapidly reproducing species to induce mutational changes hoping they would lead to new and better species, but these have all failed to accomplish their goal. No truly new species has ever been produced, let alone a new "basic kind."

A current leading evolutionist, Jeffrey Schwartz, professor of anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh, has recently acknowledged that:

. . . it was and still is the case that, with the exception of Dobzhansky's claim about a new species of fruit fly, the formation of a new species, by any mechanism, has never been observed.1

Evolution Never Happened in the Past

Evolutionists commonly answer the above criticism by claiming that evolution goes too slowly for us to see it happening today. They used to claim that the real evidence for evolution was in the fossil record of the past, but the fact is that the billions of known fossils do not include a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving.
"Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion . . . it followed logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to the more evolved.3

Even those who believe in rapid evolution recognize that a considerable number of generations would be required for one distinct "kind" to evolve into another more complex kind. There ought, therefore, to be a considerable number of true transitional structures preserved in the fossils (after all, there are billions of non-transitional structures there!). But (with the exception of a few very doubtful creatures such as the controversial feathered dinosaurs and the alleged walking whales) they are not there.

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-331.htm

The Equivocal Evidence from Genetics

Nevertheless, because of the lack of any direct evidence for evolution, evolutionists are increasingly turning to dubious circumstantial evidences, such as similarities in DNA or other biochemical components of organisms as their "proof" that evolution is a scientific fact. A number of evolutionists have even argued that DNA itself is evidence for evolution, since it is common to all organisms. More often is the argument used that similar DNA structures in two different organisms proves common evolutionary ancestry.

Neither argument is valid. There is no reason whatever why the Creator could not or would not use the same type of genetic code based on DNA for all His created life forms. This is evidence for intelligent design and creation, not evolution.

The most frequently cited example of DNA commonality is the human/chimpanzee "similarity," noting that chimpanzees have more than 90% of their DNA the same as humans. This is hardly surprising, however, considering the many physiological resemblances between people and chimpanzees. Why shouldn't they have similar DNA structures in comparison, say, to the DNA differences between men and spiders?

Similarities—whether of DNA, anatomy, embryonic development, or anything else—are better explained in terms of creation by a common Designer than by evolutionary relationship. The great differences between organisms are of greater significance than the similarities, and evolutionism has no explanation for these if they all are assumed to have had the same ancestor. How could these great gaps between kinds ever arise at all, by any natural process?

Evolution Is Impossible

The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy—also known as the second law of thermodynamics—stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganization and decreased complexity.

This law of entropy is, by any measure, one of the most universal, best-proved laws of nature. It applies not only in physical and chemical systems, but also in biological and geological systems—in fact all systems, without exception.
No exception to the second law of thermodynamics has ever been found—not even a tiny one. Like conservation of energy (the `first law'), the existence of a law so precise and so independent of details of models must have a logical foundation that is independent of the fact that matter is composed of interacting particles.5

The author of this quote is referring primarily to physics, but he does point out that the second law is "independent of details of models." Besides, practically all evolutionary biologists are reductionists—that is, they insist that there are no "vitalist" forces in living systems, and that all biological processes are explicable in terms of physics and chemistry. That being the case, biological processes also must operate in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, and practically all biologists acknowledge this.

Evolutionists commonly insist, however, that evolution is a fact anyhow, and that the conflict is resolved by noting that the earth is an "open system," with the incoming energy from the sun able to sustain evolution throughout the geological ages in spite of the natural tendency of all systems to deteriorate toward disorganization. That is how an evolutionary entomologist has dismissed W. A. Dembski's impressive recent book, Intelligent Design. This scientist defends what he thinks is "natural processes' ability to increase complexity" by noting what he calls a "flaw" in "the arguments against evolution based on the second law of thermodynamics." And what is this flaw?
Although the overall amount of disorder in a closed system cannot decrease, local order within a larger system can increase even without the actions of an intelligent agent.6

[Ace42]

But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer.

What backwards logic is this?

We know Aristotle made mistakes. He said flies had 4 legs.

Also, most of the "new testament manuscripts" have sections that protestants *disregard* as "Apocrypha." If these manuscripts are so good and in such agreement, why does your preferred bible (KJA) ignore passages in them that it dislikes?

[ASsman]

Hahah. Ok so if a, what? Nevermind, Im not even going to bother ILL. Nice job though, that comment shows what you perceive things as being.

[100% ILL]

Also, most of the "new testament manuscripts" have sections that protestants *disregard* as "Apocrypha." If these manuscripts are so good and in such agreement, why does your preferred bible (KJA) ignore passages in them that it dislikes?

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

1. Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
2. None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
3. The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
4. The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
5. The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
6. The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

Salvation by works:
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:
Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.

Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
8. No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
9. Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of some historical value, the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:
"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."
King James Version Defended page 98.

In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James said this about the Apocrypha:
"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13

Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England (1571 edition) states:
In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the Churche...

Now concerning the apocrypha it states,
And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth), the Churche doth reade for example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not applie them to establish any doctrene [sic].

Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977, Vol. III, pp. 489-491.

The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629. Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the Apocrypha from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed. From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.

Not even all Catholic "Church Fathers" believed the Apocrypha was scripture.

Not that this really means anything. The truth is not validated by the false. Nevertheless, this may be of interest to some... Jerome (340-420) rejected the Apocrypha:
"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome
Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon

According to Edward Hills in The King James Version Defended p. 98 other famous Catholics with this viewpoint include Augustine (354-430 who at first defended the Apocrypha as canonical), Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), Cardinal Ximenes, and Cardinal Cajetan.

There are other spurious books.

These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.

[59 Chrystie St.]

[100% ILL]

America founded on Biblical Principle

The Liberty Bell (1752) inscription comes from the Bible: "Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land and unto all the inhabitants thereof." ( Leviticus 25:10).

The Great Seal of the United States states "He has favored our undertakings."

George Washington 1776 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world whithout the Bible."

James Madison 4th President- "We have staked the whole future of American cicilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Alixander Hamilton (1755-1804) "For my part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such diversity of interests."

John Quincy Adams(1767-1848), 6th President "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

Zachory Taylor (1784-1850), 12th President- "It was for the love of the truths of this great and good Book that our fathers abandoned their native shore for the wilderness."

William Henry Seward (1801-1872), US Secretary of State: "The whole hope of human progress is suspended on the ever-growing influence of the Bible."

Noah Webster: "The religion which has introduced civil liberty , is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which acknowledges in every person a brother, a sister, a citizen with equal rights. THis is ginuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutios of government. All the miseries and evils from which men suffer proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible."

Benjamin Harrison (1833-1901), 23rd President: "It is out of the Word of God that a system has come to make life sweet. If you blot out of your statute books your Constitution, your family life, all that is taken from the sacred Book, what would be left to bind society?"

William Mckinley (1843-1901), 25th President: "The more profoundly we study this wonderful Book, and the more closely we observe it's divine precepts, the better citizens we will become and the higher will be our destiny as a nation."

Daniel Webster 1851: "Let the religious element in man's nature be neglected, let him be influenced by no higher matives than self-interest, and subjected to no strong restraint than the limits of civil authority, and he becomes the creature of selfish passion or blind fanaticism. On the other hand , the cultivation of the religious sentiment represses licentiousness, incites general benevolence and the practical acknowledgment of the brotherhood of man, inspires respect for law and order, gives strength to the whole social fabric, at the time that it conducts the human soul upward to the Author of it's being. If we abide in the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering; but if we and our posterity neglect it's instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury our glory in profound obscurity."

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), 26th President: "No educated man can afford to be ignorant of the Bible and no uneducated man can afford to be ignorant of the Bible."

Woodrow Wilson (1856-1924), 28th President: "The Bible is one supreme source of revelation, the revelation of the meaning of life, the nature of God and the spiritual nature and need of men. It is the only guide of the life which really leads the spirit in the way of peace and salvation."

William Lyon Phelps (1868-1943), Yale University educator and literary writer: "I believe a knowledge of the Bible without a college course is more valuable than a college course without the Bible."

Herbert Hoover (1874-1964), 31st President:"The whole of the inspirations of our civilization springs from the teachings of Christ and the Prophets. To read the Bible for these fundamentals is a necessity of American life."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (1822-1945), 32nd President: "It is a foundation of strength, and now, as always, an aid in attaining the highest aspirations of the human soul."

Harry S. Truman 1951: "I cannot think of anything that will bring about a more sober realization of spiritual values than the faithful reading of the Bible. There is not in this distraut world today a single issue that would not find solution if men and nations accept the plain teachings of the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount."

Dr, Charles W. Mayo 1953, leading physician and surgeon of the Mayo Clinic, alternate delegate to the U.N. General Assembly in 1953: "In sickness or in health, one can find comfort and constructive advice in the Bible. Individually and nationally, it's moral codes must be our guideposts for daily dealing and living."





The Beginning of the End. Secular Humanism

When the United States Supreme Court prohibited children from participating in voluntary prayers in Schools, the conclusion is inescapable that the Supreme Court not only repudiated our Christian Heritage and violated the right of free exercise of religion for all, it also established a national religion in the United States: The Religion of Secular Humanism.

The Humanist Manifestos I and II were drafted in 1933 and 1973 repectively, and signed by leading humanists such as John Dewey, B.F. Skinner and Sir Julian Huxley. These two documents define the Philosophy that has been reshaping our society and is now the foundation of Public Education in the United States.

The supreme court officially recognized humanism as a religion in 1961

Abraham Lincoln warned ..."The Philosophy of the classroom is the Philosophy of the government in the next generation."

The Humanist Manifesto Declares their philosphy a religion. Their five basic tenants are:
(1) Atheism, this is the foundation of all humanistic thought

(2) Evolution, Since belief in God is rejected they must explain man's exsistence apart from God

(3) Amorality this has led to the destruction of the moral foundation upon which America was built. Almost every sexual law that is required in order to maintain a morally sane society has been struck down by the humanists. This country's leading humanistic educators, lawmakers, and judges have consistently liberalized our statutes in these areas. They hold committed to doing awway with every vestige of the responsible, moral behavior that distinguishes man from animals.

(4) Autonomous man. Man is the measure of all things. He is innately good and capable of solving his problems without the aid of Supreme Being. He is a god-like being with unlimited possibilities.

(5) Socialist One World View. Humanists are enemies of Americanism, capitalism, and free enterprise. Dr. Samuel Johnson said " A truly humanist civilization must be a world civilization, Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Public education now has a captive audience with compulsory attendance, controlled curriculum, and compulsory taxation.

[100% ILL]

Secular Humanism is a religion:

http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html

FIRST: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.

SECOND: Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process.

THIRD: Holding an organic view of life, humanists find that the traditional dualism of mind and body must be rejected.

FOURTH: Humanism recognizes that man's religious culture and civilization, as clearly depicted by anthropology and history, are the product of a gradual development due to his interaction with his natural environment and with his social heritage. The individual born into a particular culture is largely molded by that culture.

FIFTH: Humanism asserts that the nature of the universe depicted by modern science makes unacceptable any supernatural or cosmic guarantees of human values. Obviously humanism does not deny the possibility of realities as yet undiscovered, but it does insist that the way to determine the existence and value of any and all realities is by means of intelligent inquiry and by the assessment of their relations to human needs. Religion must formulate its hopes and plans in the light of the scientific spirit and method.

SIXTH: We are convinced that the time has passed for theism, deism, modernism, and the several varieties of "new thought".

SEVENTH: Religion consists of those actions, purposes, and experiences which are humanly significant. Nothing human is alien to the religious. It includes labor, art, science, philosophy, love, friendship, recreation -- all that is in its degree expressive of intelligently satisfying human living. The distinction between the sacred and the secular can no longer be maintained.

EIGHTH: Religious Humanism considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man's life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist's social passion.

NINTH: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being.

TENTH: It follows that there will be no uniquely religious emotions and attitudes of the kind hitherto associated with belief in the supernatural.

ELEVENTH: Man will learn to face the crises of life in terms of his knowledge of their naturalness and probability. Reasonable and manly attitudes will be fostered by education and supported by custom. We assume that humanism will take the path of social and mental hygiene and discourage sentimental and unreal hopes and wishful thinking.

TWELFTH: Believing that religion must work increasingly for joy in living, religious humanists aim to foster the creative in man and to encourage achievements that add to the satisfactions of life.

THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world.

FOURTEENTH: The humanists are firmly convinced that existing acquisitive and profit-motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate and that a radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted. A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good. Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.

FIFTEENTH AND LAST: We assert that humanism will: (a) affirm life rather than deny it; (b) seek to elicit the possibilities of life, not flee from them; and (c) endeavor to establish the conditions of a satisfactory life for all, not merely for the few. By this positive morale and intention humanism will be guided, and from this perspective and alignment the techniques and efforts of humanism will flow.

So stand the theses of religious humanism.

There were 34 signers of this document, including Anton J. Carlson, John Dewey, John H. Dietrich, R. Lester Mondale, Charles Francis Potter, Curtis W. Reese, and Edwin H. Wilson.]

[ASsman]

You're fucking crazy.

[Ace42]

I've stopped reading his posts. Despite the best will in the world, he has degenerated into Sisko and started posting bollocks and op-eds as fact.

[yeahwho]

Hey 100%ILL, looks as though facts and truth can be easily distorted again, just a few days away from inaugauration and the Christian faction is already letting their guard down and getting sloppy.

Not this time around....nope, ain't gonna happen. No more free passes from anywhere. It Is On! (http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/chin_up.html)

[100% ILL]

he has degenerated into Sisko and started posting bollocks and op-eds as fact.

That was really uncalled for. The post was mainly for Q-drop who insists that as a secular humanist, he has no religious affiliation. I was merely attempting to point out, that according to the humanists themselves, their philosophy is a religion.

The Manifesto's I and II are legit.

[ASsman]

I still think that's f'ing insane.

[Qdrop]

well, i don't believe in socialism....so i guess i can't officially be humanist, huh?

look, i don't enjoy labels....because when people look up the "dictionary definitions" of them...you can always find aspects that don't fit you, or elements you don't believe in personally.

i use titles like "secular, humanist, pragmatist, centrist, independant"...ect because they best express my beliefs in the fewest words. yet they are not perfect definitions of my beliefs or views.


and if humanism IS a religion in the philisophical or strict definitional sense....so fuckin what?
it still doesn't prescribe to the dogmatic, illogical thinking that most other religions do........cept, maybe, the socialist aspects.

[ASsman]

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

.... So the only definition that applies is the 4th..? Or am I wrong, is there some supernatural power or spiritual leaders?

[Qdrop]

.... So the only definition that applies is the 4th..?

well shit, by the 4th definition.....being a democrat is belonging to a religion.

so is "being really into acid"...



:rolleyes:

[ASsman]

I found proof that Jesus does exist.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/patriotic/graphics/azflag_small.jpg

Note: this photograph has not been manipulated.

[Qdrop]

I found proof that Jesus does exist.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/patriotic/graphics/azflag_small.jpg

Note: this photograph has not been manipulated.


http://www.snopes.com/photos/patriotic/azflag.asp

[100% ILL]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/space/eyeofgod.asp

[ASsman]

Kick ass nebula. Reminds me of SAURAN!! !! OMG LOTR!!

[100% ILL]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/charley.asp

[ASsman]

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/NMLAKtortilla.html

[100% ILL]

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/NMLAKtortilla.html

Ha! that's pretty funny, especially since no one knows what Jesus looks like.

[ASsman]

Curly hair, big nose.

BOOM!

[100% ILL]

You just described my uncle

[ASsman]

I didn't know you were Jewish.

[ASsman]

<lame server hiccup>

[ASsman]

I didn't know you were so slow to catch on...

I've been claiming the white knights would ride again..for like a week now. And I'm a motherfucking Grand Wizard. WHUT!? Better not disrespect !

[ASsman]

Me not to blame, was the server. : (

Also, it's one thing to be racist and another to simply point out prevalent traits in races.

[100% ILL]

Me not to blame, was the server. : (

Also, it's one thing to be racist and another to simply point out prevalent traits in races.

Like my uncles curly hair and big nose. Thanks Grand Wizard

[100% ILL]

As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.


For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.


Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for all have sinned.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But God commendeth His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[ASsman]

Ah,shit.

Why couldn't I have been a dog, you know they all go to heaven.

[100% ILL]

Ah,shit.

Why couldn't I have been a dog, you know they all go to heaven.

Sorry no dogs.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and scorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, an idolaters, and whoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:14-15

[ASsman]

Three words... WTF.

Oh and.

Literal versus allegorical interpretation

It is possibe to read Genesis as a literal account, indicating that God created the Earth exactly as described, in 6 days of 24 hours each. It is also possible to view Genesis as an allegory for the process of humankind's development of self-awareness and the emergence of human intelligence from a previous animal state. In this interpretation, the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge is a key component as the Serpent claims it holds the power to impart understanding that would rival God's. The humans take a bite and get the ability to understand, but they do not eat the whole fruit, and so get only a partial understanding. Immediately they become ashamed of their nakedness, presumably because it belies their animal nature. God expels them from the Garden of Eden, which represents a contented animal existence, to toil in the world and face strife and conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_belief

Very interesting.

[cookiepuss]

Sorry no dogs.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and scorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, an idolaters, and whoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:14-15

Apprently dogs aren't allowed in heaven becasue according to most clergy, animals don't have souls. when I was a little catholic school girl there was quite a hellaballooo in one of the classes because they were doing prayer and people were asking for prayers for theier family and one gilr wanted to pray for her family dog of like 13 yrs who was very sick. the buttmunch preist teaching the class said they couldn't prey for a dog cause animals don't have souls. this was very upsetting to her and alot of kids in the class.

because any numbskull who has ever had a pet like a dog, can not look into thier pets eyes without recognizing that they have a soul. :rolleyes: In my opinion, dogs and many other animals do indeed have emotions, cognition and a soul. anyway if the Catholic church doesn't think animals have souls why the fuck did they hold a pet blessing on St. fransis of Assissi day? why bless them if they have no soul? what's the point? the church's double standard and complete lack of logic is the reason I no longer consider myself a Catholic.

[ASsman]

So is there no sin in killing them? Or using them as ammo for trebuchets?

[Ace42]

And yet there is for having sex with them, even though women can use soulless dildos with impunity. Go figure.

[ASsman]

I think a dog dressed up as the Pope would be the funniest shit ever. Let's see if Google agrees.

http://www.geocities.com/karlkathleenadventures/pope.jpg

AHahahah, In your face!

[SobaViolence]

i think i'll keep ignoring this thread.

[ASsman]

You can't hide from the DOG POPE!! HAHAHHAHA!

[100% ILL]

Happy Birthday Jesus.






Merry Christmas

[Funkaloyd]

I, for one, am celebrating with a mixture of stimulants and sedatives.

Happy holidays.

[100% ILL]

I, for one, am celebrating with a mixture of stimulants and sedatives.

Happy holidays.

Well, if you get the mixture perfect you should feel, well.....normal.