Coffee, Tea, or breasts.....?

[D_Raay]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/monahan1.html
Some excerpts for you lazy people out there, you should read the full article it is interesting.

At the security checkpoint I was led aside for the "inspection" that’s all the rage at airports these days. My shoes were removed. I was told to take off my sweater, then to fold over the waistband of my pants. My baseball hat, hastily jammed on my head at 5 AM, was removed and assiduously examined ("Anything could be in here, sir," I was told, after I asked what I could hide in a baseball hat. Yeah. Anything.) Soon I was standing on one foot, my arms stretched out, the other leg sticking out in front of me Ã*la a DUI test. I began to get pissed off, as most normal people would. My anger increased when I realized that the newly knighted federal employees weren’t just examining me, but my 7½ months pregnant wife as well. I’d originally thought that I’d simply been randomly selected for the more excessive than normal search. You know, Number 50 or whatever. Apparently not though – it was both of us. These are your new threats, America: pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings.
After some more grumbling on my part they eventually finished with me and I went to retrieve our luggage from the x-ray machine. Upon returning I found my wife sitting in a chair, crying. Mary rarely cries, and certainly not in public. When I asked her what was the matter, she tried to quell her tears and sobbed, "I’m sorry...it’s...they touched my breasts...and..." That’s all I heard. I marched up to the woman who’d been examining her and shouted, "What did you do to her?" Later I found out that in addition to touching her swollen breasts – to protect the American citizenry – the employee had asked that she lift up her shirt. Not behind a screen, not off to the side – no, right there, directly in front of the hundred or so passengers standing in line. And for you women who’ve been pregnant and worn maternity pants, you know how ridiculous those things look. "I felt like a clown," my wife told me later. "On display for all these people, with the cotton panel on my pants and my stomach sticking out. When I sat down I just lost my composure and began to cry. That’s when you walked up."

Of course when I say she "told me later," it’s because she wasn’t able to tell me at the time, because as soon as I demanded to know what the federal employee had done to make her cry, I was swarmed by Portland police officers. Instantly. Three of them, cinching my arms, locking me in handcuffs, and telling me I was under arrest. Now my wife really began to cry. As they led me away and she ran alongside, I implored her to calm down, to think of the baby, promising her that everything would turn out all right. She faded into the distance and I was shoved into an elevator, a cop holding each arm. After making me face the corner, the head honcho told that I was under arrest and that I wouldn’t be flying that day – that I was in fact a "menace."
The gist of his report was this: From the get go I wasn’t following the screener’s directions. I was "squinting my eyes" and talking to my wife in a "low, forced voice" while "excitedly swinging my arms." Twice I began to walk away from the screener, inhaling and exhaling forcefully. When I’d completed the physical exam, I walked to the luggage screening area, where a second screener took a pair of scissors from my suitcase. At this point I yelled, "What the %*&$% is going on? This is &*#&$%!" The officer, who’d already been called over by one of the screeners, became afraid for the TSA staff and the many travelers. He required the assistance of a second officer as he "struggled" to get me into handcuffs, then for "cover" called over a third as well. It was only at this point that my wife began to cry hysterically.

There are plenty of stories like this these days. I don’t know how many I’ve read where the writer describes some breach of civil liberties by employees of the state, then wraps it all up with a dire warning about what we as a nation are becoming, and how if we don’t put an end to it now, then we’re in for heaps of trouble. Well you know what? Nothing’s going to stop the inevitable. There’s no policy change that’s going to save us. There’s no election that’s going to put a halt to the onslaught of tyranny. It’s here already – this country has changed for the worse and will continue to change for the worse. There is now a division between the citizenry and the state. When that state is used as a tool against me, there is no longer any reason why I should owe any allegiance to that state.

And that’s the first thing that child of ours is going to learn.
In the old days sexual perverts were thrown in jail. Now, the sexual perverts work at the airports.

I am an old fashioned gentleman, which means that if one of those perverts feels up my wife, I will put said pervert into the hospital and yes, I am willing to go to jail for the privilege!

Hiring sexual perverts to grope law-abiding Americans will not stop terror. NOt screwing around with other peoples' countries is how you stop terror. That, and arresting all the Mossad agents running around pretending to ba 'Al Qaeda'.

[Whois]

Did you read the other stories?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/airport-arch.html

What is really sad is many Americans respond with "so? get over it crybaby, we're at WAR!".

[D_Raay]

Did you read the other stories?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/airport-arch.html
I'm reading them in between being interrupted...

[Qdrop]

ya know.....i believe Bill Maher and others have been bitching about this for 3 years now, and they have a great point:
when it comes to airport searches, we put sensitivity before reality.

who should arrise more suspicion: a young middle eastern looking man....or a pregnant caucasion woman?

we know the answer....yet because of the aggressive LIBERAL PC machine that has run rampant in this country for years now....but WE CAN'T DO THAT!..THAT WOULD BE "PREJUDICE" AND "PROFILING"..

NO SHIT! THAT'S WHAT WE'RE FUCKING SUPPOSE TO DO!! PROFILE!!
you should have people at airports that look through the line the way the CIA or seceret services is trained to do: look for suspicious people. people that fit the profile of most terrorists...
and yes, that means middle eastern men.
sorry....that's reality.

by pulling granny out of the line...or numerous celebrities....the airport may THINK they are showing us that they are being "fair and non-judgemental" about thier searches..but they are just being STUPID!!

look....not everyone has the equal chance of being a terrorist.
NO,REALLY... THEY DON'T!
Profiling serves a purpose....a good one!
the idea of "random checks" is the most retarded system i have ever seen in a situation as serious as this.

i, for one, do NOT feel safer when i see a 75 year old woman or a pregnant white lady get pulled out of line....while young middle eastern men with long beards walk through.
if you do.....then congratulation, your liberal PC brainwashing is complete.

i find it funny when i hear liberals suddenly (and FINALLY) jumping on this topic bandwagon...but proceed to point the finger at the Patriot Act and this current administration as the cause...."ERRODING OUR CIVIL RIGHTS!" they cry.

YOU did this, liberals. YOU!
this is what your "sensitivity before truth" campaign over the last decade has wrought.

don't blame the right for this one. lord knows they would like nothing more than to pull every middle eastern man in the airport into a dark room and leave them there for a month.

put the blame where it belongs.

[100% ILL]

That is a disturbing article. I am familiar with the mentality having served in the military for a number of years. When it comes to the government whatever their small minded representative writes on paper is what happened. You can fight it, but like the man says you have to be extremely motivated and willing to stick to your guns. Namely because they have more money and lawyers than you do. In my experience it's not that the rules themselves are so bad, it's how some semi-educated fool with a little authority, interprets them that's so bad.

[Qdrop]

The problem to me isnt who they are pulling out of the line..because any terrorist who is smart will disguise himself and his weapons in such a way that we wouldnt even think twice. Like bringing his 'pregnant' wife with him.

baloney.
a middle eastern man can't look "un-middle eastern"



look at Timothy McVey. He was about as far from middleeastern looking as you can get.

They should inspect everyone randomly.

why do people always pull out red heirings (like Mcvey) when they defend random searches?
"look at <insert white american terrorist here (all 5 of em)>, he wasn't middle eastern."

yeah, and look at the guys who flew the planes into the towers. the guy who had the shoe bomb.
watch the news...who are the ones committing the terrorist acts by and large?
who?
"white McVey's" ???
no.

sensitivety over truth.


What I DO hav a problem with is when they take advantage of their seraching rights. WHen they harass and even harm people. When they act like they are doing us some favor by squeezing our tits and making us strip in public.

There are ways of doing things. You dont have to humiliate someone to expose terroisim

agreed.
if they pulled the RIGHT people out of line....this would happen less frequently.

i know i am going to be attacked for this by this board.
bring it on.

i feel very passionate about this topic.

[Qdrop]

honestly one of the most hateful disgusting things I have ever read on this board. Im ashamed for you and revolted by you.

oh stop!...that's not what I'M saying.

that's what many republicans in power would love to do...and they ARE doing.

[Qdrop]

you dont think he has friends here he can use?

White friends. They exist you know.


"Hey Tom, it's muhamed. Would you mind carrying this bomb on board that plane for me?"

for every 1 non-middle eastern terrorist threat you can come up with, they're are probably 100 middle eastern terrorists.
(not a scientific stat....but you get the point)

sensitivety over truth.


And lets forget red harrings and let me point outthat the mAjority or Serial killers and Mass murderers that are either at alrge or have been caught are White Males.


you think they're searching for serial killers in the airport, aimee?
how many "airplane serial killers" have you heard of?

[Qdrop]

Well with the way you prefaced that statement it is sure implied that that is what you are saying.

So Mr. Sees-both-sides-to-every-situation...you seem very one-sided now.

i thought i worded it pretty well.


how am i not seeing this from both sides?

i am seeing this from a tactical standpoint (aka-objective)....their is no Righty or Lefty involved.

[Qdrop]

And yes...they have friends. If they didnt have white friends they would not have been able to get awya with half of what they have done. People have looked sideways at darker skinned people for Thousands of years. You think they are just gonna give them all the resources they need and not bat an eyelash? No. They have friends who help them and back them.

you focus on the most likely threat, aimee.

you cannot, as a rational human being, justify pulling a 75 year old women out of line. or a celebrity.
or a 8 month pregnant white accountant...

unless they had a DAMN GOOD reason for suspecting them.

[Qdrop]

well then maybe Im just a Cyncial bitch who says Dont trust anyone.

I dont care what color you are. You are a potential threat.

You dont even have to be a friend of a terrorist. You couldjust be someone they are using. Blackmailing or threatening the lives of you and your families. They could have even planted it with your knowledge.


agreed. and they're are checks in place to for those people.
but you FOCUS ON THE MOST LIKELY THREAT.


it doesnt fucking matter to me. The bottom line is, if you are going to search someone, dont be a fucking dick about it and dont take advantage of the power you THINK you have.

End of.

no argument there. i agree.

[Qdrop]

Compromise.

Truce.

you know i love you......
:o

[synch]

Qdrop, I like how you manage to blame "those PC liberals" for fascist security at airports. And you do so without providing any sort of fact, bravo. What you are essentially saying is that they should leave the pregnant white woman alone but strip search the arab looking man. Excellent.

The fact that the white woman was checked wasn't the point, the way in which it was done is. I think they should check everything they can possibly check within certain boundries. Squeezing a pregnant woman's breasts and making her expose herself in public exceeds that boundry by a lot.


edit: don't you just hate it when you post something just to realise that people have posted while you were writing making your arguement completely redundant?

[Qdrop]

Qdrop, I like how you manage to blame "those PC liberals" for fascist security at airports. And you do so without providing any sort of fact, bravo. What you are essentially saying is that they should leave the pregnant white woman alone but strip search the arab looking man. Excellent.

to a degree, yes.
call me a biggot.

but you would and DO feel differantly when you are in line for the airport and you get the shit searched out of you....while a young middle eastern man walks though.


The fact that the white woman was checked wasn't the point, the way in which it was done is. I think they should check everything they can possibly check within certain boundries. Squeezing a pregnant woman's breasts and making her expose herself in public exceeds that boundry by a lot.

obviously i IN NO WAY support or excuse how those people were treated.
THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PULLED OUT OF THE LINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

"These are your new threats, America: pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings. "

[Qdrop]

I know
Back at ya. :)


Make up sex?


hehehehehe

YOUNG LADY!!

i am a taken man.....sorry.
;)

[synch]

to a degree, yes.
call me a biggot.

but you would and DO feel differantly when you are in line for the airport and you get the shit searched out of you....while a young middle eastern man walks though.
You are a bigot. Not saying that because you asked me to say it but because of what you said after that.


obviously i IN NO WAY support or excuse how those people were treated.
THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PULLED OUT OF THE LINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

"These are your new threats, America: pregnant accountants and their sleepy husbands flying to weddings. "
White people can't be lunatics who blow people up then. Lovely, good to know. Also an interesting bit of trivia that terrorists never look sleepy.

[ASsman]

Thanks for making this thread unreadable, by sprinkling Qdrop quotes everywhere.

[Qdrop]

You are a bigot. Not saying that because you asked me to say it but because of what you said after that.


sensitivity over truth.

not all middle eastern men are terrorists looking to blow up american planes.

but they are the most likely suspects at this time.

if you believe otherwise....then like i said before: congratulations. you have been successfully brainwashed by the liberal PC left.



White people can't be lunatics who blow people up then. Lovely, good to know. Also an interesting bit of trivia that terrorists never look sleepy.

another strawman.
i did not say that.
i said they are less likely to do so when compared to middle eastern men or other likely suspecst who show or exhibit suspicious behavior.

limited resources require you allocate and direct them to where they are needed most.

[Qdrop]

Thanks for making this thread unreadable, by sprinkling Qdrop quotes everywhere.

don't talk about the troll.

(the troll being me).

[synch]

i said they are less likely to do so when compared to middle eastern men or other likely suspecst who show or exhibit suspicious behavior.
So it's every middle eastern man and people who exhibit suspicious behaviour... Right.

limited resources require you allocate and direct them to where they are needed most.
It doesn't seem to limit them now, they check everyone, that's not a problem, it's the way they check them.

I was hoping to have made that point by now.

There should be one method of checking everyone and it shouldn't have to require sexually herrassing the person you are checking. If you then spot something that needs further investigation you take that person to a separate room, you don't feel a woman up and tell her to lift her shirt in public.

[Ace42]

you don't feel a woman up and tell her to lift her shirt in public.

I do. But I attend some wild parties.

[D_Raay]

*sigh* You are missing the point Q. "Profiling" can not be allowed. It's not a liberal thing, it's a reality thing. Do you actually believe that there are no upstanding law-abiding Middle eastern people in the US? These people should be harassed for the rest of their life because of some radicals? Also, do you believe that the terrorists out there have absolutely no imagination or intelligence in their planning? They all will be wearing turbans, dark sunglasses, with an AK sticking out the bottom of their garments I suppose?
The point was, and is, NO one should be groped for the sake of security. Unless they find a way to insert boxcutters into their titties that is.

[Ace42]

It calls to mind an episode of "Nip / Tuck" where some 'spics were smuggling heroin in booby-implants, and having the cosmetic surgeons remove it on teh other end.

[D_Raay]

It calls to mind an episode of "Nip / Tuck" where some 'spics were smuggling heroin in booby-implants, and having the cosmetic surgeons remove it on teh other end.
Now i have officially heard everything...

[Qdrop]

So it's every middle eastern man and people who exhibit suspicious behaviour... Right.

yes....exactly


It doesn't seem to limit them now, they check everyone,

everyone?....really?...or just every 50 or so?
what is guiding thier choice?....educated profiling....or statistics?



that's not a problem, it's the way they check them.

both are a problem.


There should be one method of checking everyone

not enough time or resources in place....yet.


and it shouldn't have to require sexually herrassing the person you are checking. If you then spot something that needs further investigation you take that person to a separate room, you don't feel a woman up and tell her to lift her shirt in public.

agreed.
although, praytell.....how do you decide who merits "something that needs further investigation you take that person to a separate room" without being a "bigot"?

[D_Raay]

Originally Posted by synch
So it's every middle eastern man and people who exhibit suspicious behaviour... Right.
yes....exactly

You sir are officially a bigot. I guess you don't know any middle eastern people. If you do you should share your views with them. I am sure they would find them interesting.

[ASsman]

Kill Kamel jocKeys

[Whois]

They are looking for dangerouspeople in general. I know I dont want to be traveling to Bali with Ted Bundy sitting in the seat next to me.


If you did, he'd smell very bad...being dead does that to you.

(joke)

The ones like Ted are the scariest, because you'd never suspect until it was too late...

[ASsman]

-edit- server fuckup (or I fucked up), sent me to the wrong thread.

[Ace42]

The ones like Ted are the scariest, because you'd never suspect until it was too late...

I would. I have an inherant distrust of people who whack off in other people's bushes.

Their own bushes, that I can live with.

[Qdrop]

*sigh* You are missing the point Q. "Profiling" can not be allowed. It's not a liberal thing, it's a reality thing. Do you actually believe that there are no upstanding law-abiding Middle eastern people in the US? These people should be harassed for the rest of their life because of some radicals? Also, do you believe that the terrorists out there have absolutely no imagination or intelligence in their planning? They all will be wearing turbans, dark sunglasses, with an AK sticking out the bottom of their garments I suppose?
The point was, and is, NO one should be groped for the sake of security. Unless they find a way to insert boxcutters into their titties that is.

yes, of course there are "upstanding law-abiding Middle eastern people in the US".


"...These people should be harassed for the rest of their life because of some radicals?"

reality over sensitivity.


Also, do you believe that the terrorists out there have absolutely no imagination or intelligence in their planning? They all will be wearing turbans, dark sunglasses, with an AK sticking out the bottom of their garments I suppose?


yes...that is exactly what i think....straight out of an "Airplane" movie
:rolleyes:

do you really think that the training that CIA or seceret service men undergo is about as extensive as that when learning how to pick up on suspicious behavior and individuals?

"he has a turbin...GET HIM!!"

airports security should receive the same training.

hypothetical premise (dr. suess style):
if there have been a rash of crimes in your area....and all of the witness and evidence points to this gang of "purple people" called the "purple cartel"....do you go and arrest and detain a bunch of green people too, just in case? cause those green people aren't perfect either.
we have only so many squad cars and police personel....but we need to make sure we check out those green people plenty too....and the blue people.
yes, we won't be able to check out as many purples....but oh well. and hey, we don't wanna piss off the purples that are nice, right?...that would be mean.
and lord knows, at least some of the greens and blues gotta be bad. of course, we don't really have any evidence of the the greens or blues committing this kinda crime we are trying to solve/prevent....but HEY, we gotta be "fair"....right"?

yeah....that makes sense.

[synch]

Lost the will to argue.

Enjoy! :)

[Qdrop]

Lost the will to argue.

Enjoy! :)

agreed.
i'm tired.
:o

[Whois]

I would. I have an inherant distrust of people who whack off in other people's bushes.

Their own bushes, that I can live with.

I don't remember that incident, where did it happen?

Bushphelia?

[Ace42]

I don't remember that incident, where did it happen?

On some film I saw about Bundy's life which did have some accuracies, but may well have been incorrect in the representation of Bundy (before his first murder) frequently jacking off while peeping on women on his campus.

[Rosie Cotton]

It calls to mind an episode of "Nip / Tuck" where some 'spics were smuggling heroin in booby-implants, and having the cosmetic surgeons remove it on teh other end.


Now i have officially heard everything...

Everytime I go to concerts I smuggle things in my bra. I imagine people try to do that on planes.

[STANKY808]

Q - pull your head out of...the sand for christ sakes!

"Friday, December 5th, 2003
U.S. Uncovers Weapons of Mass Destruction... In Texas

A Texan man with ties to white supremacists has pleaded guilty to possessing chemical weapons in one of the most serious cases of domestic terrorism since Oklahoma City. But the media has all but ignored the story. "

Ethnicity is moot.

[ASsman]

Are we back to square one. Like the "Islam is violent" thread. Don't even argue with him. You are just giving him an ear.

[paulk]

Please provide us with what those "chemical weapons" were. He could have had a bottle of ammonia and a tablet of chlorine in his garage for all I know, and by the federal government's definitions they would have been chemical weapons. Is it not based on intent (manufactured by federal agents or actual).

Timothy McVeigh did not use an airliner during the execution of his attack on the federal government's building.

To paraphrase Benji Franklin: One who would give up an essential freedom for the sake of increased security deserves neither.

[Rosie Cotton]

The whole thing with checking awoman's breasts, that doesn't really bother me. They have to do it. But when they actually grab them. Yeah, I don't want the security guards reaching second. They're supposed to pat them down with the back of their hands. Not cop a feel.

[Ace42]

Everytime I go to concerts I smuggle things in my bra.

Tic-tacs?

[Rosie Cotton]

Tic-tacs?
Cameras. And film.

[Ace42]

If the camera accidentaly went off, you'd have a great photo for the "Boobies" thread in "Sure-shots"

[Rosie Cotton]

Only if the flash was on.

[Ace42]

I am sure your breasts are incandescent.

[Rosie Cotton]

Why yes, yes they are.

[ASsman]

You have breasteses?

[Rosie Cotton]

You have breasteses?

When did you turn into Smeagol, ASsman?

*EDIT* Sorry, that was lame. My roommate was watching the extended version and I was a bit preoccupied. Feel free to laugh at me.

[synch]

It wasn't that bad Rosie ;)

[Rosie Cotton]

Oh, yes it was.

[ASsman]

When did you turn into Smeagol, ASsman?

*EDIT* Sorry, that was lame. My roommate was watching the extended version and I was a bit preoccupied. Feel free to laugh at me.

Oh GOD! Extended Version. AKA "This one will actually kill you". Kill him now, end his miserable life. That movie needs to be 50 minutes shorter, I actually heard people flatline in that movie. (BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP)

[Rosie Cotton]

Oh GOD! Extended Version. AKA "This one will actually kill you". Kill him now, end his miserable life. That movie needs to be 50 minutes shorter, I actually heard people flatline in that movie. (BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP)

HIM?! Him? Who's "him"?

[ASsman]

Ooo lady roomate. Interesting, you must send VHS copies of "pillow battle" videos.

[Rosie Cotton]

Dammit, why don't they make a middle finger emoticon?

[Ace42]

The same reason you don't make nude mud-fighting vids of you and your room-mate? It would be crude. And too popular, and thus over-used.

Every post would include a mid-digit icon, every VCR would get jammed by the tape breaking through over use.

[synch]

Stop living in the past dude...

DVD is the way forward.

;)

[Qdrop]

Q - pull your head out of...the sand for christ sakes!

"Friday, December 5th, 2003
U.S. Uncovers Weapons of Mass Destruction... In Texas

A Texan man with ties to white supremacists has pleaded guilty to possessing chemical weapons in one of the most serious cases of domestic terrorism since Oklahoma City. But the media has all but ignored the story. "

Ethnicity is moot.

what did i say?...
RED HERRINGS!!!!......
for every ONE of these guys (and you don't even know what "chemicals" he was hording).....there are countless middle eastern men who quite literally would DIE to blow up another american plain, or train, or highway, or poision a water resevior....or set off a dirty bomb in downtown NYC or LA.......

should we let "average white joe" just walk through an airport with a pat on the back?...
obviously not.

i am not a biggot.
i am not a racist.

i do not believe the color of a man's skin contributes to his behavior. there is no scientific evidence that humans of any region have any significant genetic differance between the "man made" groups such as race, that would have any significant behavioral differances.

we are dealing with CULTURAL differances. how one is raised and bred in a culture....
what they are breed to believe.....how they are TAUGHT to hate and behave.

middle eastern men are indoctrinated since birth to hate america. they are trained and brainwashed to to believe it is a religious honor to be a martyr.

there is literally AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IN PLACE TO TRAIN PEOPLE FROM BIRTH TO KILL AND HATE.

"but Qdrop, america has the same thing....we are programmed by the gov't and media to have xenophobic, ethnocentric views as well.....we are bred to hate too."

oh come off it!!
all cultures naturally have ethnocentric views.....it's group psychology. it biological.

americans are not bred to want to kill another culture form birth.
not on the level as what you see in the middle eastern world.

this pathetic attempt by liberals to equate America's cultural ethnocentrism with the middle eastern worlds' is pathetic.
you're manipulating your own brain's perception to make the world, as you see it, conform to your pre-existing beliefs.
to the point that is could literally get people killed.

[Qdrop]

Are we back to square one. Like the "Islam is violent" thread. Don't even argue with him. You are just giving him an ear.

don't be a coward and talk about me while you have me on Ignore....

be a man and talk to ME or keep your mouth shut.


you make comments about me then shield (hide) yourself from any retorts from me.

....a cowardly little school girl.

[Schmeltz]

Sounds to me as though the terrorists have done a pretty good job of killing American culture already, now that "racial profiling" has come to the land of the free. In a couple of years you won't even recognize your own country, thanks to the killers whom you so idiotically believe could be lurking behind any non-white face in the airport line.

[Qdrop]

Sounds to me as though the terrorists have done a pretty good job of killing American culture already, now that "racial profiling" has come to the land of the free. In a couple of years you won't even recognize your own country, thanks to the killers whom you so idiotically believe could be lurking behind any non-white face in the airport line.

keep going.......
explain your views further please......

[Schmeltz]

Well think about it, yo. Isn't American culture, from start to finish, fundamentally defined by the concept of freedom (or isn't that the idea)? Not the Orwellian, doublespeak version of "freedom" like the kind lavished on Iraqis, but the small-L liberalist definition of freedom centered on individualism and the notion of rights that extend to all, the definitive cultural legacy of Western civilization. And aren't these cultural principles exactly what "racial profiling" and legislation like the Patriot Act fundamentally defy, even though they're allegedly supposed to safeguard your culture? You're talking about dismantling your society in order to save it - it almost makes me wonder why the terrorists would even bother with another attack, so thoroughly has their lone success been translated into such a profound expression of their vision.

There's more to your culture than its material infrastructure, but not many people seem to think so anymore, ironically enough. Perhaps what 9/11 and the subsequent changes in the world have shown is the extent to which the real cultural foundations of America have been usurped and pre-empted by corporate interests and big money. Someday early-21st-century America will make a fascinating historical study - another in the long list of societies who exploit traditional cultural images even as they reshape their cultural foundations to the point where those images have nothing more than symbolic value. Late-19th century Japan comes to mind, as do Rome in the first century BC and Greece in the fifth century BC. Unless, of course, somebody is visionary enough to break the pattern... which has a vastly better chance of happening in America than in any previous culture of which I am aware.

[synch]

The ones that don't want change have a far too big grasp on a large enough portion of the population for big change to occur easily.

I hope to be proven wrong though...

[Qdrop]

Well think about it, yo. Isn't American culture, from start to finish, fundamentally defined by the concept of freedom (or isn't that the idea)? Not the Orwellian, doublespeak version of "freedom" like the kind lavished on Iraqis, but the small-L liberalist definition of freedom centered on individualism and the notion of rights that extend to all, the definitive cultural legacy of Western civilization. And aren't these cultural principles exactly what "racial profiling" and legislation like the Patriot Act fundamentally defy, even though they're allegedly supposed to safeguard your culture? You're talking about dismantling your society in order to save it - it almost makes me wonder why the terrorists would even bother with another attack, so thoroughly has their lone success been translated into such a profound expression of their vision.

There's more to your culture than its material infrastructure, but not many people seem to think so anymore, ironically enough. Perhaps what 9/11 and the subsequent changes in the world have shown is the extent to which the real cultural foundations of America have been usurped and pre-empted by corporate interests and big money. Someday early-21st-century America will make a fascinating historical study - another in the long list of societies who exploit traditional cultural images even as they reshape their cultural foundations to the point where those images have nothing more than symbolic value. Late-19th century Japan comes to mind, as do Rome in the first century BC and Greece in the fifth century BC. Unless, of course, somebody is visionary enough to break the pattern... which has a vastly better chance of happening in America than in any previous culture of which I am aware.

i really don't think the American Ideal, as it has been put forth.....can really exist in the real world. at least not in today's world.
and i don't really think it's America's fault.

i think many of the failures of the "american ideal" can be traced back the the same reasons that communism failed: they aren't compatable with human nature.
at least not enough to work on large scale.

there will always be xenophobia/ethnocentrism of some kind. this is a evolved behavior that cannot be "educated away". temperered perhaps ....but not completely done away with.

and because of this.....we will never be completely accepting of what we percieve to be "others"
...whether they are middle eastern men with muslim names at the airport....or people with differant skin color moving into the neighborhood...or the new kid in class.

[Schmeltz]

The problem here is that you're trying to boil down everything about "human nature" to biological impulses. This leads you to say that bigotry and prejudice are naturally evolved behaviours, when there is no evidence to support this claim and plenty to speak against it. Humans are not simply biological animals, you know - we are social and cultural animals as well, and it is perfectly correct to speak of cultural evolution just as it is correct to speak of biological evolution (not to be confused, of course, with the toxic ideas of social Darwinism or cultural/biological determinism). Hence, I would say that it is perfectly possible to educate away learned behaviours like xenophobia and ethnocentrism; trying to claim that these are biologically ingrained in humanity is nothing more than a paltry excuse for racism, and it don't fly, Holmes.

Concurrently, it is more than possible for the American or Western ideal of liberty to exist in the "real world;" it's already been around for two and a half centuries - or if you trace it back to its Classical roots, two and a half millennia. It might not be compatible with your definition of human nature, but I think that your definition is fundamentally flawed and fails to take into account the cultural and social progress of humanity, remaining too centered on craven biology. The only things that are definitively compatible with a biological definition of human nature are fucking, sleeping, and eating. But it is just as natural for humans to propound cultural ideals that contribute to the propagation of the species just as certainly as anything else, and therefore the Western ideal of liberty has a rightful place in the real world.

If the American ideal can no longer exist in the real America, however, then that is America's fault, and a great tragedy.

[Qdrop]

The problem here is that you're trying to boil down everything about "human nature" to biological impulses. This leads you to say that bigotry and prejudice are naturally evolved behaviours, when there is no evidence to support this claim and plenty to speak against it.

really?
wow....you're gonna have to back that up.
give me sources and links on that...i'll fight you to the end on this topic.
you are really "arguing that the earth is flat" here, and your lack of knowledge on this is going to embarrass you.

if you require me to back my stance up, i certainly will.....but you could easily walk into any bookstore, check out the human studies, science, sociology, or cultural studies sections and find coutless books supporting my views.
i'd rather you got your info from professors in the field than some guy on the internet calling himself Qdrop....wouldn't you?


Humans are not simply biological animals, you know - we are social and cultural animals as well, and it is perfectly correct to speak of cultural evolution just as it is correct to speak of biological evolution

they are intertwined and inseperable


Hence, I would say that it is perfectly possible to educate away learned behaviours like xenophobia and ethnocentrism;


so consumed and blinded by ideology.
your pre-existing beliefs must act as a siv when conflicting knowledge/studies come into view.


trying to claim that these are biologically ingrained in humanity is nothing more than a paltry excuse for racism, and it don't fly, Holmes.


it is not an excuse.....it a reason.
like i said.....these basic group mentalities can be tempered by education, often to large degree (case in point: me)....but humans will always have an ideal of "us" vs. "them"....and "them is always a variable".


this discussion is a picture perfect example of a book i am reading right now:

The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker

"Our conceptions of human nature affect every aspect of our lives, from child-rearing to politics to morality to the arts. Yet many fear that scientific discoveries about innate patterns of thinking and feeling may be used to justify inequality, to subvert social change, and to dissolve personal responsibility.
In The Blank Slate, Steven Pinker explores the idea of human nature and its moral, emotional, and political colorings. He shows how many intellectuals have denied the existence of human nature and instead have embraced three dogmas: The Blank Slate (the mind has no innate traits), The Noble Savage (people are born good and corrupted by society), and The Ghost in the Machine (each of us has a soul that makes choices free from biology). Each dogma carries a moral burden, so their defenders have engaged in desperate tactics to discredit the scientists who are now challenging them.
Pinker provides calm in the stormy debate by disentangling the political and moral issues from the scientific ones. He shows that equality, compassion, responsibility, and purpose have nothing to fear from discoveries about an innately organized psyche. Pinker shows that the new sciences of mind, brain, genes, and evolution, far from being dangerous, are complementing observations about the human condition made by millennia of artists and philosophers. All this is done in the style that earned his previous books many prizes and worldwide acclaim: irreverent wit, lucid exposition, and startling insight on matters great and small. "

[Echewta]

I say we screen every Irish man because of the IRA and all. And every African just in case they lived in Rowanda. And TPK because I just don't trust him.

[synch]

Don't trust those italians either, all mafia you know.

And Dutch people have weed hidden in their cloggs, it's a well known fact.

[Qdrop]

you forgot about the austalians.....

killers....all of em.

[D_Raay]

"Profiling" can not be allowed. It's not a liberal thing, it's a reality thing.
End of.

[Rosie Cotton]

Don't forget the Native Americans. Don't want whitey to be scalped mid-flight.

[Rosie Cotton]

The same reason you don't make nude mud-fighting vids of you and your room-mate? It would be crude. And too popular, and thus over-used.

Every post would include a mid-digit icon, every VCR would get jammed by the tape breaking through over use.

Damn, why must you be right?