Acceptable torture?

[Qdrop]

it's difficult for me to start a thread on this section because half the people have me on ignore, and the other half just want to talk about the bible and jesus....

but...


do any of you believe there is any acceptable form of torture or "information retrieval"?

if you have a suspect, say a muslim man who you believe has important tactical information on terrorist activity and future plannning...
how can we get that information from him?

can we only ask him once nicely?...

what are all of your views on this subject?

[Qdrop]

I am sure there are more subtleand realitively humane ways of extracting information

examples?

[Qdrop]

truth serum, hypnotism, suggestive realities (using psychedelics/mk ultra), chinese water torture....



are you being serious?....i can't tell.

i agree with those tactics....but i think many (liberals) would deem them cruel and inhumane.

how is using any psychedelic treatment, or injecting someone with sodium pentothol (fucking with thier brain) any better then making them lay on each other naked or scaring them with dogs (which most liberals have deemed cruel)?

[STANKY808]

Intersting that you claim not to be a racist but you choose a muslim for your example.

Torture is never acceptable (physical and or psychological) for two reasons-

1) information garnered in this fashion is notoriously unreliable

2) by conducting torture it opens your troops/citizens to the same treatment

[Qdrop]

Intersting that you claim not to be a racist but you choose a muslim for your example.

i'm using current events, asshole.
stop trying to label and marginalize me.......just stick to the topic.


Torture is never acceptable (physical and or psychological) for two reasons-

1) information garnered in this fashion is notoriously unreliable


and you know this....how? your source?


2) by conducting torture it opens your troops/citizens to the same treatment

this is true. an interesting paradox.

[Qdrop]

that's just my opinion, I'm sure the images wouldn't be as damaging for Muslim/U.S. relations

agreed. good point.

[100% ILL]

Intersting that you claim not to be a racist but you choose a muslim for your example.

Ad hominim- Attacking the individual instead of the argument.

Red Herring- The introduction of a topic not related to the subject at hand

Take your pick

[STANKY808]

Asshole? Touchy touchy. I did not call you a name, I simply pointed out a fact which is open to interpretation. In past posts you have bemoaned the lack of respect displayed on this board yet you apparently can find no way to address my COMPLETLY VALID STATEMENT with anything other vitrolic name calling.

Anyway, try this on for size...

FBI had warned Pentagon on tactics
By Toni Locy and Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Early in the Bush administration's detention of foreign terrorism suspects, FBI agents told Pentagon officials that the military's harsh interrogation tactics in Cuba would produce "unreliable results," according to documents released Tuesday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-12-07-fbi-documents_x.htm

This took two seconds to find. The intelligence community is where these points come from I didn't make them up. If you check yourself you will find the two points I have stated are commonly held beliefs in the "intelligence" community.

[synch]

are you being serious?....i can't tell.

i agree with those tactics....but i think many (liberals) would deem them cruel and inhumane.

how is using any psychedelic treatment, or injecting someone with sodium pentothol (fucking with thier brain) any better then making them lay on each other naked or scaring them with dogs (which most liberals have deemed cruel)?
Are you saying that they aren't cruel to you or that it's ok to use those methods for the greater good?

[Qdrop]

Asshole? Touchy touchy. I did not call you a name, I simply pointed out a fact which is open to interpretation. In past posts you have bemoaned the lack of respect displayed on this board yet you apparently can find no way to address my COMPLETLY VALID STATEMENT with anything other vitrolic name calling.


first, it's not valid.
i have no racist beliefs or support any racist behavior.
if you are speaking of the airport security thread.....my beliefs that middle eastern peoples should be scrutinized at a higher level then others is not racist or based on any notion of genetic/racial/or even ethnocentric differances.
they are based on logic.
middle eastern terrorists pose the greatest threat to american airline security.
not the only threat...but the greatest.
we should act accordingly.

second, i called you an asshole because you implied i was a racist. that is plain for all to see.

third, because i do not kow-tow to many of your liberal beliefs...many of you would love nothing more than to find a way to vulgarly label me or marganalize me in some way....so that you could dismiss my views easier.
just waiting for anything you could sink you teeth into.....
apparenlty "racist" fits your bill......


Anyway, try this on for size...

FBI had warned Pentagon on tactics
By Toni Locy and Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Early in the Bush administration's detention of foreign terrorism suspects, FBI agents told Pentagon officials that the military's harsh interrogation tactics in Cuba would produce "unreliable results," according to documents released Tuesday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-12-07-fbi-documents_x.htm

This took two seconds to find. The intelligence community is where these points come from I didn't make them up. If you check yourself you will find the two points I have stated are commonly held beliefs in the "intelligence" community.
then why is torture,ect. still used today?....for "fun"?
are there opposing views?

[Qdrop]

Are you saying that they aren't cruel to you or that it's ok to use those methods for the greater good?

no, i think virtually ANY information extration method is cruel on some level.
i'm just opening the door for debate on what is an "acceptable level" of cruelty....and to what end?
who should decide what is an acceptable level?

[synch]

no, i think virtually ANY information extration method is cruel on some level.
i'm just opening the door for debate on what is an "acceptable level" of cruelty....and to what end?
who should decide what is an acceptable level?
Thanks for clearing that up, was just curious :)

[STANKY808]

first, it's not valid.
i have no racist beliefs or support any racist behavior.
if you are speaking of the airport security thread.....my beliefs that middle eastern peoples should be scrutinized at a higher level then others is not racist or based on any notion of genetic/racial/or even ethnocentric differances.
they are based on logic.
middle eastern terrorists pose the greatest threat to american airline security.
not the only threat...but the greatest.
we should act accordingly.

second, i called you an asshole because you implied i was a racist. that is plain for all to see.

third, because i do not kow-tow to many of your liberal beliefs...many of you would love nothing more than to find a way to vulgarly label me or marganalize me in some way....so that you could dismiss my views easier.
just waiting for anything you could sink you teeth into.....
apparenlty "racist" fits your bill......


then why is torture,ect. still used today?....for "fun"?
are there opposing views?

Did I indicate something that is not true? As I said my observation - you state you are not a racist yet choose as an example a muslim which was interesting. If you do not agree that's fine, however, I did not call you a name.

And secondly, did you not decry the name calling on the board? As I said it's one thing to dispute my assertion and wholly another to call me an ASSHOLE.

[ASsman]

Scalp them sand niggers, till they squeal.

[Qdrop]

Did I indicate something that is not true? As I said my observation - you state you are not a racist yet choose as an example a muslim which was interesting. If you do not agree that's fine, however, I did not call you a name.


if it quacks like a duck.......

you were implying that i was a racist.
stop waffling.......

what are you, a lawyer?

"didn't actually SAY you were a racist....i simply STATED an obsevation blah blah blah...."


And secondly, did you not decry the name calling on the board? As I said it's one thing to dispute my assertion and wholly another to call me an ASSHOLE.

i do decry name calling, ect......but that being said..i'm no ones bitch.
if someone starts some bullshit against my character....well fuck, i'm not a priest....and i can dish it out as well.
doesn't accomplish anything in a debate/conversation....but it establishes that you ain't gonna have an easy walk on me, pal.

we done now?

do you have anything else to contribute on this topic?
if not.......leave.

[D_Raay]

making them lay on each other naked or scaring them with dogs (which most liberals have deemed cruel)
Change "liberals" to human beings and you've got yourself a statement.

[Qdrop]

Change "liberals" to human beings and you've got yourself a statement.

that would be nice for your world view.....
but face it......many humans DO NOT think it's cruel......or at least not a great extent.

[ASsman]

Sand niggers don't have "rights" they have privileges. Which can and have been revoked.

And now the magic of the English language.

You get Torture.

tor·ture (tôrchr)
n.

1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.


And you borrow some Acceptable.

ac·cept·a·ble (k-spt-bl)
adj.

1. Worthy of being accepted.
2. Adequate to satisfy a need, requirement, or standard; satisfactory.


And you get Acceptable Torture.

No entry found for acceptable-torture.

Just because it doesn't exist as a defined word... doesn't mean we can't invent it.

[Qdrop]

Sand niggers don't have "rights" they have privileges. Which can and have been revoked.


there you go, Stanky....

see....Assman LOVES to write stuff like this all the time........
he tries to imply that it is saracstic, tongue in cheek statements meant to characterize those racist people and thier mentalities that he hates......
yet he uses words like "nigger" ALOT.....i mean ALOT.
look at all of his past posts.

it's almost as if he enjoys writing it......






there......there's an "implication" for you, stanky....
i didn't actually SAY he was a racist.....
:rolleyes:

[ASsman]

Shutup nigger.

[Qdrop]

Shutup nigger.

i thought i was on your ignore list?


make up your mind......






you just can't resist me, huh?

[ASsman]

Just like a nigger, to not know when to shutup.

[Qdrop]

Just like a nigger, to not know when to shutup.

that's right, ASs......

keep it coming......

i want you to show everyone your full character.

this is who you are.







now all that's left is to quote your last post and put it in my sig......

then everyone on the board can see what kind of person you are.

don't stop now, ASs.....keep it coming......

[ASsman]

I bet you're sitting on your ass right now. Lazy nigger. Isn't there a welfare check with your name on it, just waiting for you to pick it up. Or are you too busy selling drugs?

Or maybe you are a towel head? Cook any goat balls lately?

Or are you a Jew... killing the Christmas spirit, one messiah at a time.

[D_Raay]

that would be nice for your world view.....
but face it......many humans DO NOT think it's cruel......or at least not a great extent.
Anyone who DOESN'T think it is cruel are worse then the torturers themselves. All torture is cruel. You can think it is cruel , but accept it nonetheless. That is what I meant.

Stop blaming "liberals" for everything, it is ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time.

[STANKY808]

if it quacks like a duck.......

you were implying that i was a racist.
stop waffling.......

what are you, a lawyer?

"didn't actually SAY you were a racist....i simply STATED an obsevation blah blah blah...."



i do decry name calling, ect......but that being said..i'm no ones bitch.
if someone starts some bullshit against my character....well fuck, i'm not a priest....and i can dish it out as well.
doesn't accomplish anything in a debate/conversation....but it establishes that you ain't gonna have an easy walk on me, pal.

we done now?

do you have anything else to contribute on this topic?
if not.......leave.

I have contributed and since when are you the doorman to the bulletin board?

It seems you are behaving in the same manner in which you have complained about. As I implied earlier, if you dispute what I have said, fine. However the name calling is over the top and unnecessary.

[ASsman]

Why that is such flawed logic Qdick. So if SOME humans think it is ok to kill... then that is "human". F'ing Jew.

[Qdrop]

I bet you're sitting on your ass right now. Lazy nigger. Isn't there a welfare check with your name on it, just waiting for you to pick it up. Or are you too busy selling drugs?

that's right.....
try to go "over the top" with your posts now. say generalized statements so that everyone can see that "you're not serious...these are obviously just tongue in cheek characterizations....assman couldn't really be a racist. he's just trying to get Qdrop's goat"

yes, ass......keep going.
















like a puppet on my string.....

[Qdrop]

now i want you to do jumping jacks...

come on.....do it.

[ASsman]

Why don't you do some jumping jacks? Or is that harder than blowing up little Jew babies? Ask Allah to help you. Im sure if you do enough you'll get like 600 virgins. Goddamn Indians, first we had to deal with the fucking redskins, now you motherfuckers. Blowing up everything you see. Im just glad you all haven't joined up and blows to shit all the Subways/Dunkin Donuts/ and 7/11's.

[Qdrop]

did you do those jumping jacks yet?

i'm waiting.......

[ASsman]

Hahaha, believe me this is for my enjoyment. Your enjoyment is only a side-effect. Dumb Jesus killing Jew.

[Ali]

who should decide what is an acceptable level?It's usually the guy with the electrodes clamped to his nipples.

The other guy just keeps turning up the voltage until he hears what he wants to be said.

Most confessions signed under duress have usually been prepared by the torturers themselves, the 'accused' will sign or say anything to make the pain stop.

The tortured innocent cofesses to the crime and the real perpetrator walks free.

And what's the point of torturing a suicide bomber? Maybe you could sweep up all the little bits, glue them back together and then sign a confession for them?

Same result.

Stupid fukn debate in the first place. Torture is institutionalized cruelty, nothing more.

[Qdrop]

It's usually the guy with the electrodes clamped to his nipples.

The other guy just keeps turning up the voltage until he hears what he wants to be said.

Most confessions signed under duress have usually been prepared by the torturers themselves, the 'accused' will sign or say anything to make the pain stop.

The tortured innocent cofesses to the crime and the real perpetrator walks free.

And what's the point of torturing a suicide bomber? Maybe you could sweep up all the little bits, glue them back together and then sign a confession for them?

Same result.

Stupid fukn debate in the first place. Torture is institutionalized cruelty, nothing more.

so torture has no place or value in Intelligence, ect?

why is it still used?.....
are all of the people and countries who use it just "stupid" and cruel.
it's purely for their own amusement?....they love seeing nipples get cooked?

[100% ILL]

so torture has no place or value in Intelligence, ect?

why is it still used?.....
are all of the people of countries who use it just "stupid" and cruel.
it's purely for their own amusement?....they love seeing nipple get cooked?


http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/07/293593.shtml

[Ali]

Legalizing Torture (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26602-2004Jun8.html)

Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A20

THE BUSH administration assures the country, and the world, that it is complying with U.S. and international laws banning torture and maltreatment of prisoners. But, breaking with a practice of openness that had lasted for decades, it has classified as secret and refused to disclose the techniques of interrogation it is using on foreign detainees at U.S. prisons at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is a matter of grave concern because the use of some of the methods that have been reported in the press is regarded by independent experts as well as some of the Pentagon's legal professionals as illegal. The administration has responded that its civilian lawyers have certified its methods as proper -- but it has refused to disclose, or even provide to Congress, the justifying opinions and memos.

This week, thanks again to an independent press, we have begun to learn the deeply disturbing truth about the legal opinions that the Pentagon and the Justice Department seek to keep secret. According to copies leaked to several newspapers, they lay out a shocking and immoral set of justifications for torture. In a paper prepared last year under the direction of the Defense Department's chief counsel, and first disclosed by the Wall Street Journal, the president of the United States was declared empowered to disregard U.S. and international law and order the torture of foreign prisoners. Moreover, interrogators following the president's orders were declared immune from punishment. Torture itself was narrowly redefined, so that techniques that inflict pain and mental suffering could be deemed legal. All this was done as a prelude to the designation of 24 interrogation methods for foreign prisoners -- the same techniques, now in use, that President Bush says are humane but refuses to disclose.

There is no justification, legal or moral, for the judgments made by Mr. Bush's political appointees at the Justice and Defense departments. Theirs is the logic of criminal regimes, of dictatorships around the world that sanction torture on grounds of "national security." For decades the U.S. government has waged diplomatic campaigns against such outlaw governments -- from the military juntas in Argentina and Chile to the current autocracies in Islamic countries such as Algeria and Uzbekistan -- that claim torture is justified when used to combat terrorism. The news that serving U.S. officials have officially endorsed principles once advanced by Augusto Pinochet brings shame on American democracy -- even if it is true, as the administration maintains, that its theories have not been put into practice. Even on paper, the administration's reasoning will provide a ready excuse for dictators, especially those allied with the Bush administration, to go on torturing and killing detainees.

Perhaps the president's lawyers have no interest in the global impact of their policies -- but they should be concerned about the treatment of American servicemen and civilians in foreign countries. Before the Bush administration took office, the Army's interrogation procedures -- which were unclassified -- established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine that a hostile government were to force an American to take drugs or endure severe mental stress that fell just short of producing irreversible damage; or pain a little milder than that of "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." What if the foreign interrogator of an American "knows that severe pain will result from his actions" but proceeds because causing such pain is not his main objective? What if a foreign leader were to decide that the torture of an American was needed to protect his country's security? Would Americans regard that as legal, or morally acceptable? According to the Bush administration, they should.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

[ASsman]

Hahahaha, I guess Qdipshit didn't see the History Channel special on "Torture over time" or some shit. Worked great for the crusaders.... and witch hunts. Fucking camel jockey.

[Qdrop]

Hahahaha, I guess Qdipshit didn't see the History Channel special on "Torture over time" or some shit. Worked great for the crusaders.... and witch hunts. Fucking camel jockey.

you're skirting the area i am speaking of- intelligence.

not cohercing confessions, ect........

[ASsman]

What's that dune coon? Durka Durka Durka. Yes I would like some olive oil on my sub.

[Ace42]

Don't quote the troll, he likes sounding off about things he doesn't even have a cursory understanding of, and then pretending his limited understanding of a very narrow field of research is somehow authoritative.

If Qdrop insists on boring the people of this forum with discussing a subject which really has only one legitimate position (that torture is an intollerable abomination in any form) he should consult some texts on the subject. An obvious example would be A History of Torture by George Riley Scott, what many would call a comprehensive work on the matter.

Specifically, Part 1, chapter I:
I. The Meaning and Limitations of torture.

And all of Part 4 "The Case against Torture"

Key points include:

Chapter VI - Effects of Torture
Futility of Torture in thge Securing of Confession or Evidence

"The evil in connexion with the use of torture for securing confession is that invariably it presupposes the guilt of the individual. The whole point of torture induced for this purpose is that the persecution continues until the individual confesses[i] or succumbs under the ordeal, which in most cases means that the torture is suspended. (...) It is impossible for the persecuted individual to be proved [i]innocent as a result of torture. So that for all practical purposes, and whichever way one looks at it, torture, for the purpose of securing confession, is an unnecessary procedure.

All moral and ethical values are endangered under torture of any kind. it is for this reason that in so many cases the victim betrays friends, accomplices, and even close relatives under the pain of torture. He will confess anything that the inquisitors wish him to confess: he will sign any document that is put before him, irrespective of its nature and content.
(...)
The efficacy of torture as a means of securing convictions (and no one can deny this efficacy) rests therefore in the fact that it leads to the conviction of the guilty and innocent alike."

Chapter XXVIIII The Aims of Punishment:

" ... the aims of punishment are concerned with the prevention of crime and the reformation of the criminal. This statement, in view of the methods actually in force and approved by implications, is contradictory.

(...) Thus the death penalty in every case, and life imprisonment in most cases, absolutely prevent the reformation of the criminal; while long prison sentences, corporal punishment, and the stigma which inevitably attatches itself to imprisonment, in the case of most offenders, are the reverse of reformatory in their effects. (...)

Its power as a detterant, however, goes very much farther than this. It deters criminals [uncaught] and those [who might choose to commit crimes]
(...)
Behind the brutality of the ancients was the sound reasoning that the sight of the criminal undergoing the prescribed punishment for the offence he had commited, was an excellent mode of deterring others as well as preventing a repitition of the crime by the person udnergoing the punishment. If there is any justification for brutality or torture, by whatever name it is described, in this lay its sole justification."

As the torture in Guantanamo isn't visible and is being actively denied, it can have no effect as deterrant, thereby removing "its sole justification"

"The Limitations of fear as a Deterrent -
(...) there is no doubt that this effect [deterance through fear of capital or corporal punishment] was exagerrated in the past, and that to-day it is credited with a degree of efficacy far beyond reality. In regard to the more serious crimes, notably murder and rape, it is, in the majority of cases, ineffective."

Chapter XXIX THE EVILS OF TORTURE AS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT

The Brutalizing Effect of Punishment

"Anyone who is associated with cruelty in any form must either revel against it or accept it. There is no middle course. Callousness to suffering is an inevitable aftermath of long connexion with the infliction or witnessing of cruelty."

So, to sum up, torture (particularly in its present incarnation) is redundant and counter-productive to the aims it perports to achieve. The most experienced interogators have gone on record criticising the methods used by the US government in Gitmo. The UK military uses a method of interrogation which, while psychologically demanding, does not qualify as "torture" in any recognisable sense, and (when used legally, which is supposedly the only way it is used. Although assuming that all interrogations in any nation's military are 100% legal is as erroneous as assuming all civil laws are adherred to) thus never involves "torture."

Anyone with more than a passing aquaintance with the subject will know that any confession (and thus any intelligence. People are more likely to lie about something not directly concerning themselves than admitting to their own guilt, as Scott says, which invariably results in their own imminent death) extracted under torture is worthless.

So, "why is torture still in use?"

Read Scott's book (bibliography below) and you can see the numerous reasons laid out. Note that the ACTUAL reasons (sadism, vengeance, intrinsic cruelty, expression of power) are invariably different to the reasons the state gives. This is obvious to anyone not deluding themselves, because the reasons the state give, as shown above (abridged), are inherantly false.

So, as we can see, Qdrop is again sounding off without knowing what he is talking about, and again I have been forced to witness his ignorance because people are quoting his nonsense.

A History of Torture George Ridley Scott. Published by Senate press. ISBN 1 85958 174 9

[ASsman]

You are thinking of "dumb torture" , Qdrop is arguing for "smart torture". Calculated amounts of pain, that let's only the truth out.

[Qdrop]

No, i'm talking about getting info, intelligence, recon.....things of this nature that can be verified for accuracy.

obviously i am in agreement that torturing for confessions is ridiculous.

again, with the strawmen. you guys just thrive on those.
strawmen are always the crux of you arguments.


so sorry to upset you Ace. :rolleyes:

alas, if you two would really rather lean on personal insults:

tell me Ace and ASs......
how will you 2 be spending the holidays?
alone?....with no girl or significant other. with a family "that just doesn't get you", playing video games......chatting with your cyber friends (real friends are out of the question).

i've noticed how hostile ASs has been as the holidays grow closer.
poor lonely Assman.......
just you and the hand lotion again this year, huh?

now ASs, i fully expect you to respond to this with "tongue in cheek" racial slur.....
go on .....don't let me down.

[D_Raay]

tell me Ace and ASs......
how will you 2 be spending the holidays?
alone?....with no girl or significant other. with a family "that just doesn't get you", playing video games......chatting with your cyber friends (real friends are out of the question).
If you really thought this were true Q, this statement is a little out of bounds, even for this board... Sorry for quoting him Ace, I don't find him as offensive as you, just misguided a bit. No offense Q, you just need a moment of clarity.

[Ace42]

I'll spend this holiday pumping his mother. Who I don't like, and thus is not my "friend" - internet or otherwise.

I am so worthless. At least she gets 25 cents out of the deal.

[ASsman]

A-Rab lover. Also, my Cyber-Friend-With-Benefits, is offended.

[Qdrop]

that's the best the 2 of you can do?
really?

well merry christmas......


i'll be thinking of you 2 lonely, loveless, video game adoring chaps when i'm surrounded by family and friends and my girl who loves me.

actually, no i won't........




oh....and, uhh......torture is bad.

[ASsman]

Ever make a "Magical Milkshake" , with your favorite JELL-O® flavor. Infidel.

[Qdrop]

Ever make a "Magical Milkshake" , with your favorite JELL-O® flavor. Infidel.

ugh.....
try harder.


come on, i have 1.5 hours till i can leave work and go to the bars....
keep me entertained.
lonely angry people are good at that, right?

[ASsman]

I'm not lonely as long as I have my hand lotion.

[Qdrop]

I'm not lonely as long as I have my hand lotion.

that's the spirit!
and your video games!...don't forget those!


see, you'll be fine........














edit: see, now i feel bad. cause now whenever you jerk off or play video games, you're gonna think of me.......
and i don't want to ruin the only good things in your life.
sorry..... :(

[Ace42]

Judas was a Jew...

[ASsman]

They still killed him. He didn't commit suicide...it's against his own rules. And they didn't want to kill him (Pilatos and so on), but the Jew priests kept insisting.

[ASsman]

HE LEFT AND WENT TO THE AMERICAS!! YOU STUPID PEOPLES!

[Whois]

No offense Q, you just need a moment of clarity.

Like a B&D power drill... (y)

[Whois]

Judas was a Jew...

Yes, but as one of my former (now Christian Identity freak) friend used to say:

"Jesus was a 'good' Jew, Judas was a 'bad' Jew..."

What ever the fuck.

[ASsman]

The only good Jew, is a dead one.

[ASsman]

Then he isn't a good Jew... Duh.