PDA

View Full Version : Bitchmadeass Liberals starting to see the light...


abdulmohammad
02-01-2005, 05:38 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html

What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

February 1, 2005

BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.

You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier

If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth

On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required

But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

Rosie Cotton
02-01-2005, 05:51 PM
blah blah blah

ASsman
02-01-2005, 06:05 PM
(fap, fap, fap)

Uh, oh. Don't you have anymore? I have my soldier saluting you, and all I need is another article to finish him off.

How do you expect me to finish wanking to your rubbish, when you don't supply enough. If I get blue balls, I'll have you to blaim. You better pray I don't, here is something that should help.

http://www.hilalplaza.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=311
Prayer rug, for only 10.99$!@!!@!!! Haven't seen prices like these since the last Iraqi election!!

Whois
02-01-2005, 06:49 PM
(fap, fap, fap)

Uh, oh. Don't you have anymore? I have my soldier saluting you, and all I need is another article to finish him off.

How do you expect me to finish wanking to your rubbish, when you don't supply enough. If I get blue balls, I'll have you to blaim. You better pray I don't, here is something that should help.

http://www.hilalplaza.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=311
Prayer rug, for only 10.99$!@!!@!!! Haven't seen prices like these since the last Iraqi election!!

Assman, are you related to the General?

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com

ASsman
02-01-2005, 06:53 PM
Hahaha, what makes you say that?

No, really I would like to know.

Echewta
02-01-2005, 07:16 PM
So thats what this whole Iraq thing was about? An election?

D_Raay
02-02-2005, 12:34 AM
Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out. What complete rubbish this is..What success is it that we have achieved exactly? Mass murder? "Mission Accomplished"

This guy thinks that the most important thing here is how we would have looked to the world had we tucked tail and run away? The very same world who's opinion meant nothing entering into this quagmire?

What means something is all the faceless dead people on both sides of this "War". Where is the conscience of this country? Two wrongs make a right in this day and age? We are to be lied to, propagandized, and put in danger by a reckless group of hard-line Neo-Cons and we are supposed to be worried about saving face?

Some of them voted...Indeed. About 6.5 million out of 28 million people registered to vote. Of those a high estimate of 60% voted. Expatriate voting stood at around 10%. Those poor people are expecting something to change now that they have voted. They expect the vote to not be fraudulent. For us to leave. Right after the vote the Iraqi president declared it would be ridiculous for us to leave. The cycle of violence continues... But hey! Bush was SOOOOOOOOOO right... Right on target with the neo-con agenda.

Qdrop
02-02-2005, 08:03 AM
i have to say i at least understand the article.....and i do share some of the sentiments in it.

i guess my views are along the lines of any pragmatist:

producing a working democracy in the center of the middle east, after it had previously been under the control of sinister dictator is a good thing.
there are numerous civil, social, global, ethical, economical, and tactical advantages to that...in and of itself.
IF it works.
it is far too early to tell......and it FAR from over.
this "mission" is far from "accomplished".

the elephant in the room here....which the republicans refuse to acknowledge... is HOW we got here: through massive lies on a global scale (which show how our true intentions were anything but altruistic really), massive casualties on both sides, massive destruction to an already barely industrialized nation, massive debt, a cluster fuck of a stategy, still NO exit strategy....and near permanantly soiled name of America in the eyes of the world.
this was a manufactured war.....plain and simple.
consent for it (what little there really was) was manufactured.

one shakey election does not make it all "worth it"....no matter what texts books may say down the road.

we have far more reparations to make before we can ever say it was worth it....and even then, nothing will really take away the tarnish of what the Bush agenda did.....

ASsman
02-02-2005, 08:08 AM
You could argue that it is a completly different path, so no matter what turns you take next... you'll never accomplish anything "good".

Simply by our occupation of Iraq, we have ensured that this "Democracy" we have created or will create will be complete horseshit. Do you know how easy it is to corrupt an occupied country, in your favor?

ASsman
02-02-2005, 08:20 AM
Meh, I don't see him posting in other threads. As long as he keeps in contained and I get to choose if I want to read his rubbish or not, I'm cool.

jegtar
02-02-2005, 08:30 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html

What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

February 1, 2005

BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.

You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier

If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth

On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required

But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

There you go, Fiction

Qdrop
02-02-2005, 08:48 AM
There you go, Fiction

i think the point of the Ignore list is that he DOESN'T want to see his posts....

Ali
02-02-2005, 10:12 AM
So thats what this whole Iraq thing was about? An election?Republican PR excercise.

Whois
02-02-2005, 10:32 AM
Hahaha, what makes you say that?

No, really I would like to know.


"I have my soldier saluting you"

I was joking but that line is like his, only he says "my little soldier".

Whois
02-02-2005, 10:33 AM
You could argue that it is a completly different path, so no matter what turns you take next... you'll never accomplish anything "good".

Simply by our occupation of Iraq, we have ensured that this "Democracy" we have created or will create will be complete horseshit. Do you know how easy it is to corrupt an occupied country, in your favor?

Anyone remember post WW2 Greece?

jegtar
02-02-2005, 10:50 AM
i think the point of the Ignore list is that he DOESN'T want to see his posts....

I know, I was just fucking with him

checkyourprez
02-02-2005, 10:55 AM
turning dictatorships into democracys is al ways a good thing. but the way he went about it is whats wrong. obviously eventually we were going to get to this point in iraq.

theres plenty of other shitholes worse than iraq out there and nothing is being done to help them. its the double standard and the alterier motives of his political agenda that gets to me.

jegtar
02-02-2005, 12:59 PM
theres plenty of other shitholes worse than iraq out there and nothing is being done to help them.

You mean like Iran? You sound like you are all for going from country to country "helping" them the same way we are in Iraq.

Ace42
02-02-2005, 02:37 PM
turning dictatorships into democracys is al ways a good thing.

What, like when the US instituted the Shah of Iran?

ASsman
02-02-2005, 04:31 PM
Anyone remember post WW2 Greece?
No, that's why we post in this shitty board.