Just out of curiousity...

[ms.peachy]

what are any of us here doing to actively improve things?

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for sitting around and whinging with a bunch of other whingers and running down a litany of complaints now and again. And if there's anything this forum's got, it's a bunch of loudmouth complainers, myself included. It's fine, it's fun, it's a place to spout off - but let's face it, it's hardly very productive inthe grand scheme of things.

So I'm just curious how many people here actually consider themselves to be politically active beyond the computer screen (you know, like in the real world - where is might actually achieve something beyond quips and put-downs), and what sorts of forms that activism takes.

[ASsman]

I hug trees. I've been to some "demonstrations", pretty small ones. Tell people they are f'ing morons, sometimes with less animosity and more effect. Trying to do some silk screening, to silk screen me some shirts of the topic at hand. And am a member of the local "Jammer" group (ad busterts.. etc.).

I just hate all those little teenage veagan girls who bitch about my leather chaps.

But Im really hoping to learn to graf, and tag some billboards in the near future.

[Qdrop]

i am an assassin....

oh...i've said too much.

i need both of your addresses now.....

[enree erzweglle]

I cried when Kerry lost.

[jegtar]

What is there to do that will change anything? Sadly the war protester has fallen by the wayside with PETA and Jesse Jackson...If you complain about everything no one is going to take you serious whe it's time to really complain. This is why Michael Moore is pretending he was for the Afganistan War, so people will take him more serious about his current protest. You can make a million t-shirts and billboards but the outcome of the big picture won't change. It's not right but it's the truth.

[Qdrop]

If you complain about everything no one is going to take you serious whe it's time to really complain.
now THAT i couldn't agree with more.....
that is a lesson ALL liberals could learn.


however, jegtar....
silence solves nothing......
protest makes this country and it's ideals stronger....
it is essential....

[ASsman]

Not with that attitude.

Outright violence and guerilla warfare would change that, and CHANGE things. But that's plan B.



You can make a million t-shirts and billboards but the outcome of the big picture won't change.
Meh, and why won't that change anything? Bringing attention is the first step, change is only secondary. A lot of people don't understand that, a few that affect many, and later change a lot.

And I'm still pretty green to all of this, I'm sure there are more effective ways of changing "things", that I haven't explored.

If you complain about everything no one is going to take you serious whe it's time to really complain.
Ok you are stereotyping, exactly what you shouldn't be doing. That is part of the problem, people think "Oh people who protest they are all the same commie-hippie-bastards". New methods of protest and demonstration should change that. And if there enough of "us", and a variety of "us", then people will see that it's not about just complaining about everything (whatever it is you mean) it's about caring for our country.

Either change will happen peacefully, or violently. It's up to John Q. Public to decide.

[Qdrop]

Not with that attitude.

Outright violence and guerilla warfare would change that, and CHANGE things. But that's plan B.

Either change will happen peacefully, or violently. It's up to John Q. Public to decide.

now isn't that rather hypocritical of you?
i thought a main complaint of yours with the IRaq war is that we are using military force to exact change on another gov't...forcing democracy on the people...rather than letting their own social evolution produce that revolution through thier OWN means.

if we took up arms and forced our gov't to change through violence rather then more peacefull legislation and democratic process....wouldn't that be strikingly similar to Iraq?

or do you feel that military violence IS neccessary for any large scale revolution.....
but we should just let the Iraq's spill thier own blood and relovt on thier own?....

[jegtar]

now isn't that rather hypocritical of you?
i thought a main complaint of yours with the IRaq war is that we are using military force to exact change on another gov't...forcing democracy on the people...rather than letting their own social evolution produce that revolution through thier OWN means.

if we took up arms and forced our gov't to change through violence rather then more peacefull legislation and democratic process....wouldn't that be strikingly similar to Iraq?

or do you feel that military violence IS neccessary for any large scale revolution.....
but we should just let the Iraq's spill thier own blood and relovt on thier own?....

This is what I was talking about! Protesting violence with violence makes war protester look like PETA. It's like the protesters in California who said they loved America and just wanted the troops to come home safe, and then they started throwing rocks at a fire engine just because it had an American flag on it! They have become a punchline and are no different than the witch hunters that set outside of abortion clinics to protest.

[ASsman]

Dude, it's called the 2nd amendment. It's not for our "right to shoot any negro who tries to steal our VCR", it's to overthrow the government when it becomes "destructive of these ends".




--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.--

This country was born from a bloody war, if change can't happen peacefully... how do you expect it to occur?
You think the government is going to reform itself? It's had the chance.
As for comparing it to the Iraq war.. what? No that makes no sense. We are invading their country and shoving down Democracy Americana down their throats. I'm talking about the people doing what is best for the people, not for someone else. We are the government, they get their power from US.

Either the number of dissenters will grow, or the few will become more agressive.


This is what I was talking about! Protesting violence with violence makes war protester look like PETA. It's like the protesters in California who said they loved America and just wanted the troops to come home safe, and then they started throwing rocks at a fire engine just because it had an American flag on it! They have become a punchline and are no different than the witch hunters that set outside of abortion clinics to protest.

Who said anything about protesting violence. Im not saying let's make peace not war, thats a generalization. I'm saying stop your goddamn Imperialistic campaigns.
Our troops? They are there out of their own free-will. Murderers by choice, unless there has been a draft.. I don't see any reason why I should support them. Or beg for their return.

[Qdrop]

This is what I was talking about! Protesting violence with violence makes war protester look like PETA.

huh?


It's like the protesters in California who said they loved America and just wanted the troops to come home safe, and then they started throwing rocks at a fire engine just because it had an American flag on it!
where did you get that little story from?


They have become a punchline and are no different than the witch hunters that set outside of abortion clinics to protest.
that sentence is just shakey in general.
witch hunters that sit outside abortion clinics to protest?....
expand on that, please....

that's a pretty shakey post in general.

[Qdrop]

Dude, it's called the 2nd amendment. It's not for our "right to shoot any negro who tries to steal our VCR", it's to overthrow the government when it becomes "destructive of these ends".

i agree, that was the ORIGINAL intent at least.
i also think the constitution is a living docement that should change with time.



--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.--

i would tend to agree that, yes.


This country was born from a bloody war, if change can't happen peacefully... how do you expect it to occur?
You think the government is going to reform itself? It's had the chance.

oh, don't get me wrong.
i'm really in agreement with your sentiment.
history has shown us that virtually ALL great political revolutions required violence.
the peopl in power won't give up unless forced to with death.
period.


As for comparing it to the Iraq war.. what? No that makes no sense. We are invading their country and shoving down Democracy Americana down their throats. I'm talking about the people doing what is best for the people, not for someone else. We are the government, they get their power from US.

granted, my comparison is not a very strong, direct one...
but there is a comparison between militarily forcing democracy on the Iraqi gov't and it's people (many of whom want it, many of whom do not)....and militarily forcing democratic reform on our gov't and the people (many of whom want it, many of whom do not).
guess it's all about perspective.

[ASsman]

I guess it is.

Because our (make believe) military would be a civil one. While in Iraq it is an occupying force. We wouldn't be forcing anything down our own throats, maybe down the bourgeoisies' throats.

But I do understand were you are coming from, (blue states vs. red states). But that is barrier of ignorance. They support a corrupt/facist/imperialistic government because of their ignorance, media brainwashing, whatever. Once that is overcome I don't see how it wouldn't be a movement of the people, not one of just SOME people.

[ms.peachy]

I just realised it was a bit rude of me to ask this question, and then not volunteer to go first. D'oh.

Aaaanyway - I have to disagree with this defeatist "nothing will change anything" attitude. That's just an excuse for being lazy. If you want to believe that you have no control over anything and that you're powerless, well, I can't stop you, but I can't for the life of me why anyone would willingly choose to live in that kind of a 'victim' mindset. "Oh I'm so weak, I don't matter, I might as well not try." What rubbish! I choose to believe that I am a powerful person, and that what I do can and does affect the lives of others in ways large and small. I know it does, because I've seen it.

I'm a big believer in the "Think globally, act locally" means of accomplishment, so am active in my immediate community by being on the board of my resident's association. I was also on the board of my local association back in the US before moving to London, and since I still care quite a bit about my community back home, I stay one top of what's happening there as well, which may involve writing letters to local officials, etc.

In terms of financial support, I support both free speech and family planning organizations with monthly donations.

Also, because as a teacher I emphasize the importance of critical thinking skills and discuss the scope and cotext of world events with teenagers on a daily basis, I know that through my efforts I can have as much of an impact as I choose to make on the next generation of the world's citizens, which I consider to be a great privilege.

[ASsman]

Heh, teacher of mine introduced me to this little book (whose name I cannot remember), about US and it's conquest of Latin America. Very interesting, and personally it pissed me off (knowing the kind of hardship 3rd world coutries have to deal with, and having a lot of family living under these conditions). Not sure if that's irony or not, actually it isn't.

[Qdrop]

We wouldn't be forcing anything down our own throats, maybe down the bourgeoisies' throats.


sing it, brother....


But I do understand were you are coming from, (blue states vs. red states). But that is barrier of ignorance. They support a corrupt/facist/imperialistic government because of their ignorance, media brainwashing, whatever.
ain't it the truth.....

[Qdrop]

Heh, teacher of mine introduced me to this little book (whose name I cannot remember), about US and it's conquest of latin america.

Year 501 by Noam Chomsky?

that dealt primarily with our footing in latin america.

[yeahwho]

We're fucking rowdy in Seattle. You can do just the smallest thing, go to a workers rally, anti-war demo, help with a mailing, jeez just show a peace sign and somebody will ask you if want to take on more responsibility. I have actually thought of leaving a plum job to get more active with unionism since good jobs are leaving this community at a rate way to fast for any family to bear. That's it. For now. More later.

ASsman would make great tagger! I be laughing my ASsoffman! You Go Biatch! (http://www.fujichia.com/billboards/)

[ASsman]

No wasn't Chomsky, errr I only remember the cover of the book.. it was a silhouette of the Central/South America, with plain blue text, and red oceans.

I'm going back to visit my school in a few weeks, maybe I'll ask him.

HAha, those are like the MS Paint of tags. I'm looking more for Photoshop type tags, thinks that look like they belong, but the messege doesn't.. type things.

[Qdrop]

I have actually thought of leaving a plum job to get more active with unionism since good jobs are leaving this community at a rate way to fast for any family to bear.

oh man, don't get me started on unions......
that's another thread all together....

[yeahwho]

oh man, don't get me started on unions......
that's another thread all together....

I know, I know...those guys and their weekends, they'll prolly try and get 'em back.

[ms.peachy]

We're fucking rowdy in Seattle. You can do just the smallest thing, go to a workers rally, anti-war demo, help with a mailing, jeez just show a peace sign and somebody will ask you if want to take on more responsibility.


That's cool. I do wonder sometimes how many of the people you see at protests/rallies actually then go on and DO anything in practice. I mean, it's all well and good to go to demonstrations, they're important in that they bring people together - but if you don't follow it up with any ongoing personal action, then so what?

[jegtar]

I just realised it was a bit rude of me to ask this question, and then not volunteer to go first. D'oh.

Aaaanyway - I have to disagree with this defeatist "nothing will change anything" attitude. That's just an excuse for being lazy. If you want to believe that you have no control over anything and that you're powerless, well, I can't stop you, but I can't for the life of me why anyone would willingly choose to live in that kind of a 'victim' mindset. "Oh I'm so weak, I don't matter, I might as well not try." What rubbish! I choose to believe that I am a powerful person, and that what I do can and does affect the lives of others in ways large and small. I know it does, because I've seen it.

I'm a big believer in the "Think globally, act locally" means of accomplishment, so am active in my immediate community by being on the board of my resident's association. I was also on the board of my local association back in the US before moving to London, and since I still care quite a bit about my community back home, I stay one top of what's happening there as well, which may involve writing letters to local officials, etc.

In terms of financial support, I support both free speech and family planning organizations with monthly donations.

Also, because as a teacher I emphasize the importance of critical thinking skills and discuss the scope and cotext of world events with teenagers on a daily basis, I know that through my efforts I can have as much of an impact as I choose to make on the next generation of the world's citizens, which I consider to be a great privilege.

All I am saying is it wouldn't matter if everyone in the country wore a sign and a t-shirts in protest. It wouldn't work, not with this President. Whether you think he is hard headed or dedicated, he isn't going to change. It would work with someone like Clinton or Bush Sr. I'm not saying be lazy and not do anything, I'm just saying you will better off riding out the next 3 1/2 years and hoping McCain makes every one happier when he is elected.

[Qdrop]

I know, I know...those guys and their weekends, they'll prolly try and get 'em back.

eh...do YOU PERSONALLY have any experiance with unions?
have you been in a union?
have YOU ever had union workers working for you out on the floor?

or are you just going by what the little liberal pamphlets tell you?

[Qdrop]

not all captain generalizer :mad:

sorry aimee.....
:p

ALL,...except for you!

[ms.peachy]

All I am saying is it wouldn't matter if everyone in the country wore a sign and a t-shirts in protest. It wouldn't work, not with this President. Whether you think he is hard headed or dedicated, he isn't going to change. It would work with someone like Clinton or Bush Sr. I'm not saying be lazy and not do anything, I'm just saying you will better off riding out the next 3 1/2 years and hoping McCain makes every one happier when he is elected.

Fair enough, but then you are making a very, very limited definition of what 'political activism' can be.

I cannot concur with the notion of 'riding out' the next 3 1/2 years. Can I personally get Bush out of office in that time? Probably not. But are there like a million other things I can do in the interim if I choose to? Absolutely.

[Qdrop]

All I am saying is it wouldn't matter if everyone in the country wore a sign and a t-shirts in protest. It wouldn't work, not with this President. Whether you think he is hard headed or dedicated, he isn't going to change. It would work with someone like Clinton or Bush Sr. I'm not saying be lazy and not do anything, I'm just saying you will better off riding out the next 3 1/2 years and hoping McCain makes every one happier when he is elected.

every politcal and/or social change in American history alone, started with public protest on the smallest level.
EVERY SINGLE ONE.....

[ms.peachy]

eh...do YOU PERSONALLY have any experiance with unions?
have you been in a union?
have YOU ever had union workers working for you out on the floor?

or are you just going by what the little liberal pamphlets tell you?

Take it outside, boys, take it outside...

[Ali]

Take it outside, boys, take it outside...Now look what you've gone and done!

[yeahwho]

That's cool. I do wonder sometimes how many of the people you see at protests/rallies actually then go on and DO anything in practice. I mean, it's all well and good to go to demonstrations, they're important in that they bring people together - but if you don't follow it up with any ongoing personal action, then so what?

Point taken and wholly understood. We have some very savvy politicians in Seattle and are pretty much hated by most folks just outside of our city limits. I guess what I'm saying is.....for our town, which is huge, we've done our best and are proud of it, our best may not have changed anybody else's minds, but it has strengthen our resolve.

How ever corny that may sound, it is sincere.

Local Guy Link (http://www.fixour.us/)
Baghdad Jim (http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/), our rep.

Just a few noted active folks and the list gets longer and funner, but really it's up to everybody to have an ideal about your community and try and make it happen. Act Locally. The machine is way to big to tame any other way.

[ASsman]

The President can't fire himself....

We don't want to change him or anything to do with him. We have Congress, which is suppose to answer to the people. They should be your main focus, protesting the President is only for awareness. Telling your fucktard Congress-Person, to get off his lazy ass and do something is for effect.

[yeahwho]

eh...do YOU PERSONALLY have any experiance with unions?
have you been in a union?
have YOU ever had union workers working for you out on the floor?

or are you just going by what the little liberal pamphlets tell you?

I'm a huge fan of pamphlets, can't you tell?

[Ali]

Write to your local political representative and tell him/her that you, your family and all your friends and freinds' friends' friends are going to give him/her your votes if you see them doing xyz

There's nothing a politician wants more than your vote (or campaign contribution, but votes are cheaper).

[ASsman]

That's of course if you believe the Government and its current structure is worth saving... and not completly corrupt.

[Qdrop]

I'm a huge fan of pamphlets, can't you tell?

i'm just sayin....

i DO have personal experiance....
and unions have become a corrupt fucking joke....a safety net for the lazy and malicious- which was obviously NOT thier original intent.

power corrupts fully.....

now if you were fighting for Union reform....that's something else.

[yeahwho]

power corrupts fully.....

now if you were fighting for Union reform....that's something else.

That's for sure. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2002-08-07-tyco-ceo-money_x.htm)

[Qdrop]

That's for sure. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2002-08-07-tyco-ceo-money_x.htm)

i thought we were talking about Unions...not corrupts CEO's....

stay on topic.
;)

[yeahwho]

i thought we were talking about Unions...not corrupts CEO's....

stay on topic.
;)

ms.peachy gonna blow, best get back on your activism and now.

[ms.peachy]

ms.peachy gonna blow, best get back on your activism and now.

yes, or I'll have to give you my sternest peering-over-my-glasses teacher-look!!

[hellojello]

what are any of us here doing to actively improve things?

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for sitting around and whinging with a bunch of other whingers and running down a litany of complaints now and again. And if there's anything this forum's got, it's a bunch of loudmouth complainers, myself included. It's fine, it's fun, it's a place to spout off - but let's face it, it's hardly very productive inthe grand scheme of things.

So I'm just curious how many people here actually consider themselves to be politically active beyond the computer screen (you know, like in the real world - where is might actually achieve something beyond quips and put-downs), and what sorts of forms that activism takes.
too bad if someone already said this i couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread.
im not politically active at all and i wouldn't consider a few throw away comments on here political activism. Either way though I make a point of NOT being politically active because the majority of activism is completely futile, especially in the political arena. Of course if you're from the NRA or the pharmacutical industry or even just have a considerable amount of capital your opinions are going to be taken a lot more seriously than your averages jo's but I wouldn't exactly call that activism (even though technically it is because we're all part of the civil society) cause it's more like corruption. Granted some forms of activism are more influential than others nevertheless generally speaking I'd say the impact it has towards positive change is basically nil. There may be small victories, but at the pace of progress today they turn out to be nothing more than drops in the ocean.

[Whois]

yes, or I'll have to give you my sternest peering-over-my-glasses teacher-look!!

Say teach...got any handcuffs to go with that stern look?

:eek:

[ms.peachy]

too bad if someone already said this i couldn't be bothered reading the whole thread.


Yeah, so, I guess that means you missed the part where I basically pointed out that everything else you just said is a basically load of lazy-ass crap.

[ms.peachy]

Say teach...got any handcuffs to go with that stern look?

:eek:

Just what the hell kind of class do you think I teach, pal? (!)

[jegtar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jegtar
This is what I was talking about! Protesting violence with violence makes war protester look like PETA.


huh?

Quote:
It's like the protesters in California who said they loved America and just wanted the troops to come home safe, and then they started throwing rocks at a fire engine just because it had an American flag on it!

where did you get that little story from?

Quote:
They have become a punchline and are no different than the witch hunters that set outside of abortion clinics to protest.

that sentence is just shakey in general.
witch hunters that sit outside abortion clinics to protest?....
expand on that, please....

that's a pretty shakey post in general.


I think they way PETA runs things just defeats their purpose and makes thim look less than smart. So I guess PETA=dumb protester

The fire department thing happened in Desert Storm, and and for this war the Mayor of the town made them remove the flags for their safety. This sparked a faulty "The Mayor Made Them Remove Their Flags!" email chain that is listed on Snopes.

What I meant about the witch hunter line is: Is seems like new Far Left is the same excact thing as the old (or current) Far Right. Intollerent people with signs and chants telling you how to live or what to believe. When some one uses violence in protest of the war they are no different than the nuts that bomb abortion clinics.

[ASsman]

... There may be small victories, but at the pace of progress today they turn out to be nothing more than drops in the ocean.

Hate to break it to yah, but it's called the Civil Rights movement... and it kinda worked. Sorry to poop on your parade.

But hell, if you can sleep at night knowing that through inaction you are responsible for some of these evils... then sure nighty night. I'd love to continue with you but I have a class to attend.

And yah, PETA are a bunch of dumbasses.

[jegtar]

Write to your local political representative and tell him/her that you, your family and all your friends and freinds' friends' friends are going to give him/her your votes if you see them doing xyz

There's nothing a politician wants more than your vote (or campaign contribution, but votes are cheaper).

Don't think that works either, not in this situation anyway. I think this last election showed who The Majority is as far as voting goes.

[hellojello]

Hate to break it to yah, but it's called the Civil Rights movement... and it kinda worked. Sorry to poop on your parade.

But hell, if you can sleep at night knowing that through inaction you are responsible for some of these evils... then sure nighty night. I'd love to continue with you but I have a class to attend.

And yah, PETA are a bunch of dumbasses.
I don't think people in the third world have many civil rights, obviously the movement lost steam at some point. I challenge you to come up with major developments made by social action groups in the last 10 years: IN THE INTERNATIONAL FORUM. I may be contributing to these evils by my lack of activism, but tell me what does your proaction actually achieve (other than preaching to the converted)?

[ms.peachy]

I challenge you to come up with major developments made by social action groups in the last 10 years: IN THE INTERNATIONAL FORUM.

Well, there's pushing the issue of Third World debt to the forefront of the G8 agenda, for one.

[hellojello]

Well, there's pushing the issue of Third World debt to the forefront of the G8 agenda, for one.
It's all talk and no action. Haven't you ever notice that? They discuss it to make it seem like they care about the issues, that their not just in it for themselves, but they never actually do anything to change it. Jubilee 2000 started years ago, AND it's still going - to no avail. They're headed by christans too. You'd thinkj if anyone had a chance at being influential it would be a bunch of christians. What makes you think just because they're ''discussing'' it this time it's going to be any different? Millions of people protested the war on iraq, but that didn't change a thing.

[Ali]

Don't think that works either, not in this situation anyway. I think this last election showed who The Majority is as far as voting goes.It might work in a Democratic society.

[Ace42]

I challenge you to come up with major developments made by social action groups in the last 10 years: IN THE INTERNATIONAL FORUM. I may be contributing to these evils by my lack of activism, but tell me what does your proaction actually achieve (other than preaching to the converted)?

Let's see, a million new clean-water wells across Africa? Not good enough for you?

[phinkasaurus]

Millions of people protested the war on iraq, but that didn't change a thing.

this is a good point. 10 million in fact, world wide marched on one day to protest the coming war. And it still happened.

i myself participate in as many marches and demostrations as I can. I also post my thoughts and engage in debates in as many arena's as I can, be it message board or face to face converstion or in my shows. I also back all this up with personal action: I shop locally, trying to avoid major corporations, I only buy from thrift stores, i avoid products and services from known environmental and labor abusers. Other than that, I try to hasten the coming revolution, be it peaceful or violent. I hope it's peaceful, but I am ready if it's not. like people have said in this thread before me, the one's in power are not just going to give it up. they will have to be forced.
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun

[ASsman]

Be careful what you all wish for. If you think these demonstrations and what have you aren't very effective.


Take into consideration Plan B.

Take arms comrades. ect.

And again I don't go to protest the war and the expect the President to come and say, "Simmer down now, I won't do it" , or "No more late-fees", it's about bringing attention to a subject so that THE PEOPLE become aware of it. And were does our government (suppose to) derive it's power from? That's right class THE PEOPLE.

So in reality who do you have to blame for all this wrongdoing and mass-murdering.. That's right YOU, and ONLY YOU. They are the Russian circus bears, you are the handler, no do you damn job.


Take into consideration Plan B.

Take arms comrades.

[ms.peachy]

And again I don't go to protest the war and the expect the President to come and say, "Simmer down now, I won't do it" , or "No more late-fees", it's about bringing attention to a subject so that THE PEOPLE become aware of it. And were does our government (suppose to) derive it's power from? That's right class THE PEOPLE.


Someone's been watching his Schoolhouse Rock!

Now do "Conjunction Junction".

[ASsman]

Never seen that one, that is why I lack basic mechanics skills.

[Ace42]

Hmmm, let's see. I am in regular correspondance with my MP. Richard Younger-Ross. He is excellent. I was a fully paid up member of the liberal democrat party (until I let it lapse due to poverty) and pamphletted for them, thereby (hopefully) encouraging voters. I wrote speeches for my housemate who is a local councellor. I give to charity when I can. I have never paid a penny in taxes (which are used to by guns and pay soldiers) other than VAT which is inescapable. I've been on protests, been in correspondance with Jack Straw's (UK foreign minister) office.

I've refused to learn to drive on the grounds that it is ecologically unsound and cars run on the blood of arab babies, despite mobility being incredibly useful, and likely to get me 33.2% more poontang than being limited to bipedal locomotion. I try to avoid products that I know are made in sweatshops, or by companies with poor reputations for fair-trading, etc.

[Rosie Cotton]

Like Ace, I don't drive. I know how, and I'll do it if there's some sort of an emergency. But I don't have a car, nor do I have a valid driver's license. I try to shop at mom and pop stores as often as possible, but sometimes going to a retail giant is a tad unavoidable around here. I used to be pretty strict about not buying things made in China, but I've come to realise that it's futile. I still don't do it very often, though. I thought about volunteering for Brad Carson, who was the Democratic candidate for Senate in Oklahoma, but the man is so conservative he makes John McCain look like a commie. I couldn't in good conscious go through with it.

[ms.peachy]

I have never paid a penny in taxes (which are used to by guns and pay soldiers)

I can understand not wanting to support objectionable actions. But taxes are also used to pay for teachers, nurses, care workers, cultural institutions, etc. In the absence of paying taxes, what are you doing to support those persons who are actively working to fill those roles that are beneficial to a healthy society, or that provide assistance to those who are unable to help themselves?

[Ali]

I can understand not wanting to support objectionable actions. But taxes are also used to pay for teachers, nurses, care workers, cultural institutions, etc. In the absence of paying taxes, what are you doing to support those persons who are actively working to fill those roles that are beneficial to a healthy society, or that provide assistance to those who are unable to help themselves?careful... you might get called all sorts of nasty things

[ms.peachy]

careful... you might get called all sorts of nasty things

LOL I mentioned I teach teenagers, right? (And not just any teenagers either - my lot are kids that have been excluded/left school, often due to behavioural problems.) Ain't nothin no one can say to me here that I don't hear worse than on a daily basis.

And anyways, I am just askin a simple question. I don't have a bigissue with not paying some taxes - after all, as an expat I do not pay any federal tax in the US, and I am fine with that. Like I really want to give the Bush administration my money? But as a homeowner in the state of New Jersey, I do pay state taxes, as well as property taxes in Jersey City and I'm fine with that too - I am a big fan of stuff like having my street cleaned, trained qualified teachers, social services for the mentally ill, and such.

[Ali]

Take into consideration Plan B.

Take arms comrades.That will just get you shot/gassed/imprisoned/beaten the fuck up and will only make the government's position even stronger.

Use the system to change the system. Pay your taxes and lean on your local political representative; make his/her life hell until he/she takes your message as far as they can, then lean on the next guy/gal in the structure.

Like I said, they can do nothing without your vote (OK, Bush can - but only for so long) they will do anything for your vote. They have to listen to you or be removed by some other person who will.

It's not as glamerous as protesting or violent revolution, but it's gotta be more efective.

[ASsman]

And that is why it is called Plan B, not A.

[GreenEarthAl]

Recently, what I been workin on:

I wrote this book:
Relations: McEmpire (http://www.amprosoft.com/books/Relations/)

I've been helping this woman run for mayor of Buffalo:
Judy Einach (http://judy4mayor.org/)

I wrote this book that I released online over the summer:
How to Care About Humans (http://onlineautobiographies.com/)

I have been building community with the local food coop, the housing coop, the credit union coop, and our local community center.

I have stopped giving my money to the corporate barbarians by abstaining from department stores, fast food restaurants, gas stations and automakers, cable companies, etc.
And instead give my money to locally owned and opperated products and services and help local manufacturers start up as best I can with my limited time.

I have also written software for the movement, like the Western New York Shared Calendar Project for example. (http://www.buffalopeacepeople.org/wnycalendar/)

I rap, breakdance and recite poetry at local open mics and joined a performance poetry group and do a lot of those kinds of writing arts for peace and justice.

I make websites like Corporations Suck (http://www.corporations-suck.com) though I haven't had the time to keep up with it in recent months with all of the time spent writing my book.

I love my girlfriend and appreciate my friends and make more friends at every opportunity.

[ms.peachy]

I had no doubt that you were busy rockin' it and shockin' it, Al (y)

[Qdrop]

hey Al,
when are we gonna see chapter 6+ ?

huh huh!!???

[Ace42]

I can understand not wanting to support objectionable actions. But taxes are also used to pay for teachers, nurses, care workers, cultural institutions, etc. In the absence of paying taxes, what are you doing to support those persons who are actively working to fill those roles that are beneficial to a healthy society, or that provide assistance to those who are unable to help themselves?

Considering the amount of tax money that is spent on warfare, lost in corruption, creamed off by fat-cats, etc, I'd say that it is like saying "You can't say you want to axe the national lottery - think of all the good causes that would lose out on the revenue it brings in for them!"

Frankly, the idea of the government holding the gun to my head with "Let us use your money to buy guns, or else we won't give you proper medical care or clean streets" is not acceptable to me. I think that is bordering on extortion (and to some extent Will Self agrees with me) and I am not the sort of person to allow myself to be manipulated in that manner, even if it means the discomfort that accompanies the bursting of any blackmail scheme.

[ms.peachy]

Considering the amount of tax money that is spent on warfare, lost in corruption, creamed off by fat-cats, etc, I'd say that it is like saying "You can't say you want to axe the national lottery - think of all the good causes that would lose out on the revenue it brings in for them!"

Frankly, the idea of the government holding the gun to my head with "Let us use your money to buy guns, or else we won't give you proper medical care or clean streets" is not acceptable to me. I think that is bordering on extortion (and to some extent Will Self agrees with me) and I am not the sort of person to allow myself to be manipulated in that manner, even if it means the discomfort that accompanies the bursting of any blackmail scheme.

I understand that and I'm not particularly disagreeing with you. What I am asking (somewhat rhetorically) is, in lieu of paying taxes, what as a socially responsible person are you doing to support those individuals who provide services that are essential to the function of any healthy community/society?

[Ace42]

Depends on what you mean by support, and how essential you think they are to a society. Keeping the streets clean isn't really essential. For my part I have never littered, so I do not feel the need to support people who are cleaning up other people's mess. For reasons aforementioned, that precludes road-tax.

What alternatives to indirect taxation can you suggest? I suppose I could offer to cook for medical proffessionals and public servants (in the litteral sense, rather than the beaucratic sense) in some sort of 70s strike food-line. But really, would these professionals want or need this? I could spend my time picking up other people's litter for the betterment of society, but surely this demarkation would only increase the ire of the people whose job it is? I could tell people not to litter (like they would lsiten, hah) - but surely that comes under the "making a big fuss" bracket you mentioned in the opening of this thread.

I suppose I could set up my own registered charity and thus be tax exempt, but just how effective would the "non-taxpayers charity for noble public services" be?

Maybe quite good if I could think up a witty acronym, and some way of actually generating revenue.

[ms.peachy]

Like I said, it was somewhat rhetorical. I guess maybe the root question is, as a non-tax payer, do you feel you have any obligation to support people who do the sorts of work (paid or unpaid) that are essential to a functioning community - essential meaning whatever you think is essential. For example, for me, I would say that something like, say, providing care for the less able is essential. So if I was not supporting this type of work financially, I might feel I ought to volunteer to do things like handle errands for the elderly, or in a recreation program for disabled kids, something like that.

[Qdrop]

i dunno, Ace....
sounds like you are trying to rationalize not wanting to pay taxes.....
you apparently have put alot of effort into it......

i believe you stated you are currently unemployed (and living with your parents)
if you don't have the money, you don't have the money....you can't afford to pay taxes....
no need to rationalize.

everyone plays the economic victim at times......
i've been there.....

[ms.peachy]

i dunno, Ace....
sounds like you are trying to rationalize not wanting to pay taxes.....
you apparently have put alot of effort into it......

i believe you stated you are currently unemployed (and living with your parents)
if you don't have the money, you don't have the money....you can't afford to pay taxes....
no need to rationalize.

everyone plays the economic victim at times......
i've been there.....

ooh, sound like you're spoilin' for a fight LOL

Leave him be and just let him answer as he sees fit; he's actually being rather civil and engaging in reasonable discourse at the moment. Which is nice. No need for baiting just now, eh?

[Qdrop]

ooh, sound like you're spoilin' for a fight LOL

Leave him be and just let him answer as he sees fit; he's actually being rather civil and engaging in reasonable discourse at the moment. Which is nice. No need for baiting just now, eh?

what?...i'm not goin after him.
arguing with Ace is pointless and quickly degrades into an abusive ego fest.

But one does not simply pay taxes for/on their own accord...or according to what THEY do or need.
Taxes are for the benefit and well being of the society around you.
simply because you don't have or use a car does not disclude from having a responisibility to take care of the roads in your soceity.

i can see his views on not wanting to support gun or military financing.
but individual can't pick and choose what things they want to pay taxes on and which they don't.
you pay your taxes in full....and elect individuals who you feel will appropriate them to your liking- you do not stop paying your taxes.

you don't boycott taxes, you elect those that appropriate them according to your views.....

that's the greatly simplified version of my view anyway.....

[ASsman]

Here comes World War IV - a no-holds-barred propaganda war of competing world views and alternate visions of the future. To win, we need some heavy intellectual artillery, I call them “metamemes” – ideas big enough to explode in the global imagination and win the bloody battles ahead. Here are some of the most potent metamemes in our arsenal right now:


ECO
# · Slow down fast money with the Tobin Tax. France, Canada and Belgium have already approved the concept of a tax on every currency trade; the EU may not be far behind. attac.org
# Throw out the GDP as a measure of progress and implement alternatives like the Genuine Progress Indicator, which measures quality of life. redefiningprogress.org
# Overthrow neoclassical economics and open the discipline to competing ideas. Download campus manifestos at truecosteconomics.org
# Fight the political battle for a true-cost economy in which the price of every product includes its ecological costs. adbusters.org


PSYCHO
# Win the right for equal access to commercial airtime: corporate ads versus activist mindbombs. Legal actions are underway at mediacarta.org.
# Use anti-trust actions to crack the media megacorps and make way for a media democracy.
# Fight the human rights battle of our information age. Enshrine “The Right To Communicate” in the constitutions of all free nations and in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mediacarta.org.


CORPO
# Remove the limited liability and legal personhood that give corporations the same rights and freedoms as living, breathing human beings.
# Reassert democratic power with civil reviews of all corporate charters.
# Revoke the charters of corporations that betray the public trust. Three Strikes And You’re Out!


POLITICO
# Launch a global public broadcaster, untv news
# Pioneer a Global Internet Voting System and start holding plebiscites.
# Elect a virtual parliament for the United States of Planet Earth.
# Forget the traditional party split. Run a massive membership drive for the Green Party and start work on a crisp, new platform for a Second American Revolution in 2008.


ANARCHO
# Make a promise to yourself: start living again . . . having fun . . . kicking ass . . .

Kalle Lasn

http://adbusters.org/magazine/57/tsunami.php

[Qdrop]

^^pretty sound ideas to me....
not much argument from me there......cept some of the political agendas. :o

[phinkasaurus]

you don't boycott taxes, you elect those that appropriate them according to your views.....

i more or less agree with this statement. I don't want my taxes spent on things I don't agree with either, but that does not negate the reason taxes are important. we all want our state to pick up the tab for a lot of things, like police, fire, roads and infrastructure,etc. but then when it comes time to pay for that, taxes are suddenly a bad thing. this is part of the reason the U.S. national debt is skyrocketing, all these tax cuts. (part of it)

[ASsman]

Tax cuts make me happy, and then sad once I've squandered my funds and am out of job because of a poor economy.

[Qdrop]

Tax cuts make me happy, and then sad once I've squandered my funds and am out of job because of a poor economy.

YOU HATE OUR FREEDOM!!

[Whois]

I used my $300 tax rebate to buy about 2000 rounds of ammo.

(y)

[Bob]

i'm uh...studying to be a lawyer

it's a long term plan, ok?

[ms.peachy]

i'm uh...studying to be a lawyer

it's a long term plan, ok?

Works for me.

My favourite aunt spent 35 years as a civil rights lawyer in the department of Health & Human Services. She's contributed to numerous pieces of legislation that have helped 'level the playing field' for millions of people, including Title 9, rights for the disabled, and hate crime statutes.

It didn't happen overnight.

[Ace42]

i dunno, Ace....
sounds like you are trying to rationalize not wanting to pay taxes.....
you apparently have put alot of effort into it...

No, I am all for taxation, and I would be willing to pay massive subsidies *IF* it was being used reasonably. However, it isn't. I am very much pro-tax in general.

if you don't have the money, you don't have the money....you can't afford to pay taxes....
no need to rationalize.

It is not rationalisation. I have the means to gain a significant income if I so desired. However, selling my soul to the man for a consumerist wank is not something that appeals to me. What they are selling, I do not want to buy. That includes Ikea designer tables, sparkly gold watches, pin-stripe suits, gas-guzzling SUVs, a phone you can lose in your minor body orifices, etc etc.

I am currently living a humble life (style, not necessarily posting) through choice. This choice is in no small part motivated by my disdain for the capitalist values we are expected to accept as "normal." I have actively avoided gaining any form of employment that would require me to enter the rat-race.

everyone plays the economic victim at times......
i've been there.....

I'm not an economic victim... I am quite happy with my (economic) lot at present.

But one does not simply pay taxes for/on their own accord...or according to what THEY do or need.
Taxes are for the benefit and well being of the society around you.

Indeed, however I think our taxation system (in a large part) does not operate for the well being of society. I think our taxation system is a significant part of propping up an unfair system that keeps a lot of people (not me, I am privilidged) in effective slavery. Mass amounts of public money is squandered by the UK government and I fail to see how *I* am obligated to cover up for *their* mistakes.

I'd like to think that people in other countries are part of the "society around me" (the human race) and taxes are very very seldom for their benefit. Certainly not the benefit of the countries being economically plundered through unfair trade agreements.

If I paid taxes, it would not go into improving the rail networks (which have killed a number of people recently) despite that being what a chunk of taxes are supposed to go towards (despite the railways being privatised) - it would just be squandered (read: embezzled). The government is pouring money into the industry, and people are told constantly (through tax-funded press releases) that it is under control or being sorted. And yet nothing is being improved. While wasting tax-money on rectifying the mistakes of fuckers is irksome, giving it to thieves and murderers is simply unacceptable.

Saying "0.2% goes on genuinly improving public services!" is not good enough.

you pay your taxes in full....and elect individuals who you feel will appropriate them to your liking- you do not stop paying your taxes.

I certainly did not elect into power Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and his ilk. And even if my preferred party did come into power, it would only be a matter of time before stupid hicks elect a bunch of self-serving morons into power who would totally destroy everything that had been achieved. EG, privatisation. The industries were nationalised using tax-payer's money. Then, the Tories sold them off (to their own privatised companies no less) - did everyone get a tax rebate? Hell no. Did the quality of transport improve? Nuh-uh - there have been numerous accidents and fatalities, the vehicles are dirtier and later, and the fares have more than trebled.

If I were a German when Hitler was in power, would I be ethically obliged to give his government tax-money merely because he was elected, even if I knew it was going to be spent (mainly) on war and genocide?

Whether democractically elected or no, I don't think that justifies supporting tyranny.

[Bob]

Works for me.

My favourite aunt spent 35 years as a civil rights lawyer in the department of Health & Human Services. She's contributed to numerous pieces of legislation that have helped 'level the playing field' for millions of people, including Title 9, rights for the disabled, and hate crime statutes.

It didn't happen overnight.

yeah, i've been reading about charles houston lately, i'm inspired now. not that that's what's spurned me to decide to go to law school, i'd decided before that (it was honestly much more of a case of "oh shit, i'm a poli sci major, here's a worthless bachelor's degree"), but now i'm actually thinking i could do a lot of good with my life if i go the lawyer route.

or, i could get corrupt and work for microsoft or mcdonald's and sue people for a living. i'm approaching such a crossroads right now, it's really kind of intimidating.

[Whois]

i'm uh...studying to be a lawyer

it's a long term plan, ok?

A politician in training or just a regular lawyer?

Not that going into politics is a bad thing, it's got amazing bennies... ;)

[BGirl]

Well, most recently I made a 'peace DVD' and sent it to family members and a dozen friends, it consists of slide shows of pics I took at the major anti-war and anti-RNC demonstrations in NYC, some videos, and on a DVD-ROM area files that they can print and iron-on to t-shirts or make into signs. Some got the DVD for the holidays, a second batch was sent inauguration week. I got a LOT of appreciative thank-yous for that one. :)

Last year I worked on the Kucinich campaign a little bit (collected signatures to put him on the ballot, etc.). Gave his campaign $$ until it hurt. Some straight donations and some purchases of bundles of his book, buttons, etc. Every Democrat I know except my mother (who was a registered Republican until last year) voted for Kucinich in the primary so I think our efforts did a little bit of good there.

At Christmas we bought a number of gifts from The Peace Company, which gives a portion of proceeds to the Peace Department campaign. They were cool gifts too, like a really cute stuffed globe (I may order one for myself) and planet earth jigsaw puzzles. (y) And dove ornaments and such. Also gave the Marc Jacobs Hillary shirt to my sister-in-law who started college this year and has gotten involved with the campus Democrats. Then last month we bought a bunch of stuff on sale from the 'gear that gives' site (hunger site, literacy site, etc.) with proceeds going to those various organizations. So we have a head start on the upcoming holiday season.

I have a basket full of political materials and buttons & stuff sitting out in the hallway, and people have taken things from it when they come to visit.

I've written to my various elected representatives on many occasions and since they are mostly Democrats they (especially Charlie Rangel (y)) seem pretty responsive. I wrote to Hillary last summer about electronic voting and she didn't even have a category in the email form for it at the time so I chose "human rights." I think I got a response for that one that wasn't the usual form letter and I tried to dig it up one day recently because she became active on that issue. I wondered if I had a little part in that at all. :o

What else... I've kept a weblog over the years, though recently I've cooled off a little bit on the political posts, temporarily, while I take some time to think about my overall strategy..

As part of that I'm thinking about my business and how to mesh it more with my philosophy. My business in general is in line with that because when I was laid off from my last corporate job right after Sept 11 I decided I couldn't work for a corporation anymore, it was really eating me up inside. So I set off on a new course to learn a traditional craft (bookbinding) and work for myself as an independent artisan. I think this year I'm going to start donating a portion of profits to a couple worthy organizations TBD (I'm leaning toward New York Cares and WBGO, the jazz public radio station). And while last year I devoted a fair amount of time to political stuff this year I really need to concentrate on growing my business.

This is not an exhaustive list, just a few examples that might provide others with ideas and inspiration. :) I think this is my longest post ever on this board!

[ms.peachy]

handmade books! Cool (y)

I llllllloooooooovvvveee WBGO; am a longtime supporter. When I was still in the US, the Saturday morning Rhythm Revue was an essential part of my routine - get up, get bagels, get cleaning, and dance along with Felix's tunes.

Plus they do all those free concerts all summer!

[BGirl]

handmade books! Cool (y)

Thanks! It has been really fulfilling on many levels. It's so satisfying to make things with your hands, and for me, a lifelong lover of books, it's especially wonderful to make them. And I'm thrilled with my client base so far, I've made sketchbooks for artists, journals for writers, and albums for weddings and births (among other things). I mean, it's really an honor to make books that serve such special purposes.

(I would love to add the Beasties to my client list. Rhyme books or whatever... call me up, boys! :D)



I llllllloooooooovvvveee WBGO; am a longtime supporter. When I was still in the US, the Saturday morning Rhythm Revue was an essential part of my routine - get up, get bagels, get cleaning, and dance along with Felix's tunes.

Plus they do all those free concerts all summer!

Michael Bourne is my man, I'm about to tune him in right now!