Pornography: good or bad? (an expose')

[phinkasaurus]

I needed to make a seprate thrad before we overan the other one.(sorry dutchdisaster)

i think pornography of all sorts objectifies the people involved in it. The actors, be they male or female, straight or gay, are made out to be objects solely for sexual gratification.

I know male are instinctually driven to spread there seed as much as possible. great. does that mean men have to few women as sperm recepticles only? i don't think so.
I know many women choose to go into this profession as well. So? Many women choose to be prostitutes, and pletny of people choose to be drug dealers and petty thugs. I argue that these life choices are made out of necessity not a longing to participate in the event. (superficially maybe, but then it could be argued that the society makes that look appealing)
I think it comes down to a repect issue. How many of you people that enjoy or endore porn can honestly say you'd be ok with your wife(daughter/brother/cousin/mom/girlfriend/etc) participating in porn?

Lastly, I think all kinds of sex is fine, whatever kind of kink or dom shit you want to do is great. Private matter. between two (or more) consenting adults.
My central issue is this: women are treated as second class sex objects in our world. how can we end that pervasive thought, while still supporting the porn industry?

[ASsman]

Why do you think pornography is a lot more popular among men....

[beastinotaranie]

I needed to make a seprate thrad before we overan the other one.(sorry dutchdisaster)

i think pornography of all sorts objectifies the people involved in it. The actors, be they male or female, straight or gay, are made out to be objects solely for sexual gratification.

I know male are instinctually driven to spread there seed as much as possible. great. does that mean men have to few women as sperm recepticles only? i don't think so.
I know many women choose to go into this profession as well. So? Many women choose to be prostitutes, and pletny of people choose to be drug dealers and petty thugs. I argue that these life choices are made out of necessity not a longing to participate in the event. (superficially maybe, but then it could be argued that the society makes that look appealing)
I think it comes down to a repect issue. How many of you people that enjoy or endore porn can honestly say you'd be ok with your wife(daughter/brother/cousin/mom/girlfriend/etc) participating in porn?

Lastly, I think all kinds of sex is fine, whatever kind of kink or dom shit you want to do is great. Private matter. between two (or more) consenting adults.
My central issue is this: women are treated as second class sex objects in our world. how can we end that pervasive thought, while still supporting the porn industry?
im gonna go watch sum porn.

[phinkasaurus]

Why do you think pornography is a lot more popular among men....

because men have very easily excitable sex drives, and the male hormones are very active from age 12 to 24 (guesstamation), and men respond to visual sex stimulus more than women.

why do you think pornography is a lot more popular among men?

[ASsman]

Meh, I would argue both "drives" are equally easily excitable (say that 5 times fast). Men attracted to women (sexually) on a purely phyisical level, while women need to be emotionally attatched to be sexually attracted. Like ugly guys with super hot chicks.
(rebuttal pending) I can't even think straight about this, need some time to think about it because it makes no sense to me.

[phinkasaurus]

while I can be attracted physically to ladies, I prefer emotional attachment. the last relationship I was in had no real emotional attachement for me and i did not like it. i would argue that I am not the only male that feels this way. I would also agree that women's sex drives are pretty strong, but they do express it in a different way. look at the number of women's porn versus men's porn.

how does this not make sense, ASsman?

[K-nowledge]

Wow! I thought it was a chic that started this thread.

[ASsman]

It seems to fall under the category of "Violent movies glorify or add to violence" or something. I just don't see how porn does that with women..... if it done it's done in ones mind, what if I beat off to a Sears catalog? Is it because Sears is objectifying women?

[ms.peachy]

women need to be emotionally attatched to be sexually attracted.
sez who?

[ms.peachy]

Oh by the way, I vote "good". I mean some of it is rubbish and all, but some of it's, erm, jolly nice. And, I know loads of women who enjoy it as much as I do. And, increasingly, women are becoming bigger players in 'the business' as more and more women accept their right to enjoy their sexuality.

Are there lots of fucked up needy people (of both genders) in that business? Sure. But there are also some who aren't. Just like in life.

[ASsman]

sez who?
Psychologists.

[ms.peachy]

Psychologists.
They say a lot of stuff.

I think it's more social conditioning than something inherent to 'women'.

[ASsman]

I'm not a Psychologist. And from what I've read that's how a lot of women work. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority. And I don't know how you could be conditioned into that sort of thing. But from what I understand we are "wired" that way, so yes it inherent, according to what I know... :confused:

[phinkasaurus]

that makes sense, ASsman. Does the porn itself generate the objectification or does that distinction happen in ones mind?

I don't know.
I am not big on censorship, so I don't know the answer.
I think excessive violence for no reason is dumb and borders on harmful to the pschye, but i don't think we need to ban violent movies or games to show people violence is wrong.

To me though, porn is different, some how. Women are and have been treated poorly by men for ever! How can this stop? Can we allow porn and still change peoples minds about the correct way to treat women (and in turn all people)?

I am the first to admit I am eing hypocrtitcal.
age old question: education or legislation?

[ASsman]

I would agree with you, if these women were sold into slavery as sex slaves... Or beaten, or paid less than stand-in cocks. But I just don't see were women are seen as just objects of sex... I just don't. Girls getting stuffed with a double-ended dildo doesn't really make women any less human to me.... The same as me and friends checking out girls at the mall. Hell they enjoy the attention they get (as long as it's tasteful), they put hard work into getting all pretty and they like people to notice.

[ms.peachy]

I'm not a Psychologist. And from what I've read that's how a lot of women work. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority. And I don't know how you could be conditioned into that sort of thing. But from what I understand we are "wired" that way, so yes it inherent, according to what I know... :confused:
well, my degree is in developmental psychology, which I realise doesn't make me an authority on everything, but it did give me a firm grounding in understanding social conditioning. I don't understand how you cannot see how it could be conditioned: look around, the madonna/whore dilemma is still quite evident. Boys absorb the message that for them to be manly, they should endeavour to fuck as many chicks as possible but not actually like female company, and girls get the message that they should be pretty and desirable but must walk a fine line or they are sluts, whores, etc if they actually enjoy sexual attention.

[ASsman]

Well I only said that because from what I understood it wasn't something that came with conditioning. Of course it could be, just like girls who have been abused by their father and later become extremely sexually active. It came out wrong.

And I have just started Gen. Psy., so lay off college girl.

Chicken and the egg. But from again from what I've heard it's something that is wired in, I guess there is supporting research. Probably apparent in other cultures that aren't objectifying women.

[ms.peachy]

Well I only said that because from what I understood it wasn't something that came with conditioning. Of course it could be, just like girls who have been abused by their father and later become extremely sexually active. It came out wrong.

And I have just started Gen. Psy., so lay off college girl.

I was just saying.

You will certainly find evolutionary biologists who will agree with you and argue that men are more or less exclusively wired one way and women another, but it is a controversial field and there is by no means universal agreement.

Good luck in your studies. It's an endlessly fascinating subject.

[Whois]

Porn is very very very very very very very good...and beastiality is very very very funny.

[Ace42]

Porn is good. So what if women are objectified? Most of the women I know are thick as planks anyway, so I can't see why they need be treated as deep intellectuals.

We live in a superficial world. To criticise the best bit of consumerism (porn) strikes me as a bit odd. You may as well say "capitalism: Good or bad because it objectifies people?"

[yeahwho]

I just worked a 12 hour nightshift. I feel objectified, exploited....I had to fake enjoying it.

Porn is cool, just like everything else, excessive folks are going to exploit it. It's like that ride at Disneyland, It's an ugly world afterall, an ugly, ugly world.

[Marlene]

i am a very liberal individual and am anti-censorship and to some people my stance against pornography may seem contradictory, but it is not. pornography is all about the objectification of females and isn't about "free speech or anti-censhorship"....pornography should not be allowed. (i am not against the legalization of prostitution though) we do not allow children to be sexually objectified and i don't think women or men should be sexually objectified either.

people may not be aware of this, but there are women in this country who are sex slaves. they are brought into this country under false pretense and are forced to perform sexual acts or face deportation.

i do not allow pornography in my home and would never associate intimately with a man who was into pornography. i know of several men who do not feel women should be objectified in any manner.

[Marlene]

Porn is very very very very very very very good...and beastiality is very very very funny.


that's fucking sick!

:-o===============

[ASsman]

sexually objectified and i don't think women or men should be sexually objectified either.
Then don't, I think Porn stars would be insulted by that, strippers, and prostitutes.




people may not be aware of this, but there are women in this country who are sex slaves. they are brought into this country under false pretense and are forced to perform sexual acts or face deportation.
And there are sober kids in India, finish your beer! Yah, so? I don't beat off to sex slave home-made videos.

i do not allow pornography in my home and would never associate intimately with a man who was into pornography. i know of several men who do not feel women should be objectified in any manner.
1 of 3 possibilities.
1. He does watch porn, and beats his dick like it owes him money. (but obviously doesn't tell you about it, why would he, he is a guy and you are not)
2. His drug is religion, and think God will set him on fire if he beats off, so every now and again he has to wash man juice from his jammies.
3. He beats off , not to porn, or soft-core movie, or even Sears catalogs, but to his imagination. He beats off to other women, he imagines them in compromising positions. Why would he beat off to you... that's not how it works.

Sure there might be other possibilites, but they aren't as likely, nor amusing.

[ASsman]

For reals, except guys don't care. Because we aren't like that, what? Sex with no strings attached? Perfect.

[Marlene]

What about bullshit like Lifetime Movies and Sex & the City? Men are totally objectified. You'd think the only thing men were good for are money, random sex and beating women.

i don't watch that shit

[Marlene]

1 of 3 possibilities.
1. He does watch porn, and beats his dick like it owes him money. (but obviously doesn't tell you about it, why would he, he is a guy and you are not)
2. His drug is religion, and think God will set him on fire if he beats off, so every now and again he has to wash man juice from his jammies.
3. He beats off , not to porn, or soft-core movie, or even Sears catalogs, but to his imagination. He beats off to other women, he imagines them in compromising positions. Why would he beat off to you... that's not how it works.

Sure there might be other possibilites, but they aren't as likely, nor amusing.

your personal attacks are amusing, but not for the reasons you think
:)

[ASsman]

Haha, personal attacks? Im talking about a made up random guy.... who am I attacking?

Why would he beat off to you... that's not how it works.
Maybe that, but that wasn't an attack. When Men go out with women and sleep with them, they don't go home and beat off to their girlfriends. They beat off to models, and porn stars.

[Marlene]

Haha, personal attacks? Im talking about a made up random guy.... who am I attacking?

it's interesting that you think any random male would be just like you....people are individuals not stereotypes.

[ASsman]

Hahaha, that's like saying a man who thinks about sex every 4 seconds is a stereotype. If anything it's the majority, and a generalization.... It's the way the brain works, women are more emotional.. again not a stereotype. And not in my image, I beat off to proper porn. Not Sears magazines.

[Marlene]

i think this discussion 'twixt you and i shows that women are *not* necessarily "more emotional"

you are on the defensive. is it because there are men who are different than you and women who are different than you imagine they should be?

[Marlene]

Yeah...but ALOT of crappy girls do watch that shit.

yup an' ain't it a shame?

[ASsman]

Sure, and guys don't necessarily enjoy the company of women... But we are both physically and psychologically different. ( I really must find some research) But that is what I have come to understand, not from my own dreaming and thinking, but from actual psychologists. We are wired differently and thus require different stimuli. I don't see a lot of women going out for a quick fuck, while on the other hand I see A LOT of guys going for one night stands, not calling the day after, being "dogs". And this isn't what Im basing my claim on, I'm merely supporting it. Like I said before too, you can have sex with a man who is asleep, doesn't require "complex thought" to reach an orgasm. While women (some,most) have a hard time reaching an orgasm if they aren't emotionally attatched (or sufficiently) to their partners. Some women enjoy anal, or older guys because they were abandoned by their Fathers. Those things are obviously change things, not things that come "wired" into our brains.


yup an' ain't it a shame?
Meh, I don't feel objectified. And I don't hear feminists bitching about it. Probably due to our obvious differences, the way we perceive things and such...Tired of all this "we are equals" horeshit. Obviously we aren't, sure we deserve same rights and all that beef (on the basis that we are all humans) but we aren't equal in any shape or form. We have different functions and purposes, we are designed for those things.

[ASsman]

Yah I know, and some women like older men. Or are extremely sexually active before they even reach a sexual maturity in which they actually ENJOY the sex. Ask those girls if they have had past abuse, any type of abandonment, or molestation, most of the time you'll get an answer. Sometimes not, I'm not a Psychologist, I can only say so much.

[Marlene]

i do agree with you there are differences. but, we are also alike and there are females who are more like the sterotypical male and vice versa.

i've been the one looking for just fun and no commitment from a guy....i've been with guys i didn't take seriously for a relationship, guys who wanted me to spend the night and i'm like "i gotta go...um got something in the morning" or whatever just to get out of there and not have to deal with the morning (even if i knew the guy for more than just one night). and i honestly don't believe i am in the minority of women about those types of scenarios. i've been with guys who had zero upstairs because i wasn't thinking with my brain. i'm older and wiser now though and those types of meaningless encounters offer me nothing because they are inherently superficial and not worth my time.

i can't believe for any woman reaching orgasm has anything to do with emotional attachment....it's all mechanics....although i guess women with emotional issues can be blocked for whatever reason. where i think women are most different is they have a hard time letting go of their responsibilities and just focus in on sex.....they have a harder time getting into the zone b/c they typically think about "oh i should be doing this *insert practical thing* because truly i think women are wired to be more responsible than men.

also, women can have orgasms in their sleep.....and also have orgasms without clitoral or vaginal stimulation.

[Marlene]

equality is about rights not

women have equal strength to men or
men are equal to women in the number of orgasms they can have in a row

feminists, such as myself, do complain about the objectification of men.

[ASsman]

Pff, equal in strenght? Hardly. Like this one special I was watching about girl wrestlers, fighting against male wrestlers. Once the boys hit puberty they can form muscle a lot faster and efficiently than their women counterparts. Girl got her ass kicked, she can't reach that level without trying 3 times as hard as the males. How is that being equal? (can't think of the hormone that is created in males that improves muscle growth, have it on the tip of my tounge)

feminists, such as myself, do complain about the objectification of men.
And thanks, it's about time someone did. I for one can't stand women thinking I'm only dating them for sex, especially the ditsy ones.

But really this is going nowhere, I need some supporting reasearch, psychological theories.. so on.

also, women can have orgasms in their sleep
I happen to know for a fact it only works with men.. sorry. Like you can rape a guy.. because he would more than likely become erect even if it is unwanted. Very hard to do, I've tried.(again Ill try and find some online articles or something, so that my word isn't all I have)

Everything I know about anything like this, I've learn from everyones favorite doctor.

http://www.drdrew.com/

And now from actual Psychology courses.

[Marlene]

I'm cool with you not being cool with porn as long as you complain about the objectification of men.

well, yeah, i mean there's no integrity in being biased/one-sided.....that's not walking the talk.

what's interesting is that the pressure women have felt for a long time due to the objectification of women is starting to happen to men because of the growing objectification of men.....that is not cool.

[Rosie Cotton]

it's interesting that you think any random male would be just like you....people are individuals not stereotypes.
Most men are like that. It's not that big a deal. I don't watch porn, but I don't care if others do.I would rather date a guy who watched porn than someone who pays for sex.

[Marlene]

I happen to know for a fact it only works with men..

not true. personal experience.

found linkage, too:

http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case9827.htm


the hormone i believe you are thinking of is testosterone....which women do have as well albeit in smaller doses....same way men have estrogen and whatnot.

also, your penis is basically a larger version of the clitoris. all males were first females in the womb.

and exactly....we aren't equal in strength or in ability to have multiple orgasms (although i hear with tantric sex men can achieve multiples...don't know from personal experience though).....but, we should have equal RIGHTS.

[ASsman]

not true. personal experience.
Again, there are always exceptions. Some women claim they have orgasm from Anal sex..........>!>>!#>@>$>.2. Tired of repeating myself. That doesn't change anything.
Also I would like to know how you are able to tell you had an orgasm in an unconcious state, or that you've ever had an ACTUAL orgasm.

also, your penis is basically a larger version of the clitoris. all males were first females in the womb.
Meh, and?

but, we should have equal RIGHTS.
Yah, rights. God given rights. But when you start talking about being physically or biologically equal... you aren't.

[Marlene]

well, apparently your drdrew is full of shit. :) women can and do have orgasms in their sleep.

[Marlene]

Yah, rights. God given rights. But when you start talking about being physically or biologically equal... you aren't.

God given rights? jesus h. christ am i talking to a fundie?

no god to give rights. i'm talking about socio-economic political human rights.

also, since you acknowledge your dick is a large clit, why do you think it would respond or behave differently in a man vs. a woman?

[ASsman]

He has a PhD and like 30+ years of experience. I don't see any sign of credibility on your side.
Q:
I'm a 20-year-old female and have been with my boyfriend for about two years. We have had sex for over a year. I'm unable to have an orgasm during sex with him. Is this normal?

A:
It is very common for young women to have difficulty achieving orgasm, particularly during intercourse. In fact, a significant percentage of women never have an orgasm during intercourse itself. Most women are able to figure out some means whereby they can reach orgasm, whether it is through oral stimulation or manual stimulation.
My opinion is that in general there is entirely too much focus on the mechanical aspects of the female sexual functioning. The one consistent feature that I have found to be overlooked is the emotional connection women have with their sexual functioning. In fact, most women who are able to feel comfortably intimate with their partners, and who have partners who are present and responsive to their needs, will automatically function well physically.
A woman may not be able to have an orgasm during intercourse, but ultimately will be able to achieve some means to climax. Obviously, an important variable in achieving this is your partner's emotional support and awareness of your needs. You won't have control over this, but you should learn to express those needs.
Look carefully at this relationship to be sure there is in fact an intimate connection. If there are significant shortcomings, recognize that most relationships in your age group do ultimately end. They are part of the learning process, which leads to understanding who you are in a relationship and what your needs are sexually, emotionally and intimately.
© 1999 drDrew.com, Inc. All rights reserved.


AND AS ALWAYS! There are always exceptions, always. Like there are both gay and straight people, mostly straight, because not everyone is molested by their uncles.

[Rosie Cotton]

Whoa! You can't say that about Dr. Drew!

[Marlene]

He has a PhD and like 30+ years of experience. I don't see any sign of credibility on your side.
Q:
I'm a 20-year-old female and have been with my boyfriend for about two years. We have had sex for over a year. I'm unable to have an orgasm during sex with him. Is this normal?

A:
It is very common for young women to have difficulty achieving orgasm, particularly during intercourse. In fact, a significant percentage of women never have an orgasm during intercourse itself. Most women are able to figure out some means whereby they can reach orgasm, whether it is through oral stimulation or manual stimulation.
My opinion is that in general there is entirely too much focus on the mechanical aspects of the female sexual functioning. The one consistent feature that I have found to be overlooked is the emotional connection women have with their sexual functioning. In fact, most women who are able to feel comfortably intimate with their partners, and who have partners who are present and responsive to their needs, will automatically function well physically.
A woman may not be able to have an orgasm during intercourse, but ultimately will be able to achieve some means to climax. Obviously, an important variable in achieving this is your partner's emotional support and awareness of your needs. You won't have control over this, but you should learn to express those needs.
Look carefully at this relationship to be sure there is in fact an intimate connection. If there are significant shortcomings, recognize that most relationships in your age group do ultimately end. They are part of the learning process, which leads to understanding who you are in a relationship and what your needs are sexually, emotionally and intimately.
© 1999 drDrew.com, Inc. All rights reserved.


AND AS ALWAYS! There are always exceptions, always. Like there are both gay and straight people, mostly straight, because not everyone is molested by their uncles.

he's full of shit. sorry. is this the loveline dude? she's not having an orgasm because he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. same old story. drdrew should tell her to get a vibrator and start exploring her own sexuality.

[ASsman]

I fail to see your point Rosie.

God given rights? jesus h. christ am i talking to a fundie?
They are called that, on that really old piece of paper..

no god to give rights. i'm talking about socio-economic political human rights.
K...


also, since you acknowledge your dick is a large clit, why do you think it would respond or behave differently in a man vs. a woman?
Because of our different biochemestry and brain "wiring".


he's full of shit. sorry. is this the loveline dude? she's not having an orgasm because he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. same old story.
Hahahaha, for some reason if you told me my leg was fine. And a extremely experience DOCTOR told me my leg was broken... I would believe the Doctor. I don't know why, call me crazy.

I can see were you are coming from, but the informality of it all doesn't change his ability and years of experience.

[Marlene]

Because of our different biochemestry and brain "wiring".

i'm talking about mechanics of the clit and the penis here....lower brain stem.



Hahahaha, for some reason if you told me my leg was fine. And a extremely experience DOCTOR told me my leg was broken... I would believe the Doctor. I don't know why, call me crazy.

I can see were you are coming from, but the informality of it all doesn't change his ability and years of experience.

my linkage was to a site where a Dr. was explaining in detail the mechanics behind female orgams which occur during sleep. did you even read it??? what i read there was specific in nature and scientific and not bullshit anecdotal rhetoric.

[ASsman]

What link?

Oh, Dr. Lin....

http://www.actionlove.com/image/header.jpg

Not sure I want sex advice from him. And I wasnt aware we were talking about 37 yro women. Who are beasts, why do you think a good MILF is a good MILF, horny as hell.

[Marlene]

http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case9827.htm

[Rosie Cotton]

I fail to see your point Rosie.
Huh? What are you talking about? What point? I didn't try to make any kind of point.

[ASsman]

Caught you red handed Did I! !!


It is very common for young women to have difficulty achieving orgasm
I'm F/37yrs. old I've waking up from a deep sleep with a orgasm

Hmm, that is if you trust Dr. Lin....

[Marlene]

drdrew isn't even a gynecologist...he's an addiction medicine specialist. gee whiz....it's like dr. laura. yea, i'm really going to listent to what he says vs. my own gyn physician. i know it's possible since it's happened to me more than once, so i did a search and dr. lin's page was the first url on google.

[Marlene]

what do you mean beasts? i'm in that age group.

[ASsman]

I thought we were talking about phsycology..... Hes the FUCKING LUV DOCTOR!
Haha, I need a doobie and some non-objectifying porn, like Anime.

When a women reaches their sexual peak.. that is the time you bag yourself a nice horny older women..Kind of makes you wonder what women got out of sex before they actually enjoyed the "mechanical" part of it. And this argument is really out of my "league" so I'll step down. In the meantime Im going to go to my local supermarket, maybe catch me a birde.

[Rosie Cotton]

drdrew isn't even a gynecologist...he's an addiction medicine specialist.
Perhaps you've heard of sex addiction? Besides, no matter what medical field someone specializes in, they have to have basic training in the field of psychology. If said person decides to become a psychologist, they have to have a basic knowledge of all branches; beit child psychology, addiction (of any kind), sexual problems. They have to know about it.

[ASsman]

Thanks hun, *slaps rosie on the ass*, *puts a 20 in her pants*.

[Marlene]

Perhaps you've heard of sex addiction? Besides, no matter what medical field someone specializes in, they have to have basic training in the field of psychology. If said person decides to become a psychologist, they have to have a basic knowledge of all branches; beit child psychology, addiction (of any kind), sexual problems. They have to know about it.

generalists are not specialists nor should they ever act as if they are.....too many doctors play god.

[Rosie Cotton]

Okay, we're talking about porn and orgasms. How the fuck does "playing god" enter into the equation?
Thanks hun, *slaps rosie on the ass*, *puts a 20 in her pants*.
Bastard. Well, it is a twenty.

[Marlene]

i think if you read the entire thread it would be self explanatory.

goodnight kids.

[Rosie Cotton]

I did read the whole thread. And I just don't understand how you derived "playong god" from a discussion of porn and women's inability to orgasm during sex.

And by the way, Dr. Drew does say that young women can achieve orgasm through means other than intercourse. He never said that female orgasm was based solely on an emotional connection to her partner, male, female, or battery powered.

[Marlene]

personally, i don't know or care to know what drdrew says. he is not an expert....he is a celebrity. i was responding to assman who implied drdrew based the female orgasm solely on emotional connection.

[Rosie Cotton]

He is a doctor. He's only a celebrity because he's on a radio show (and was on the shitty MTV version) that actually helps people. And it's pretty funny.

"I'm 5 foot 12." "That means you're 6 feet tall." "No, I'm 5' 12""

[DutchDisaster]

Whatever, but I've met a lot of men in my 35 years of manly being and I have never heard 1 man saying that he disliked watching Porn (in whatever style or form that may be) or didn't get aroused by it with some teenieweenie little tinkle

Surely not all men are braggin bout it or watching it every and all day, but still, when a man sees a beautifull naked woman, hormons start trippin , whether you like it or not.

For those who think porn is something of the bad bad modern age I'd like to add the following:
I visited the ruins of Pompei, an Italian city which was covered in dust and hot lava from the Vesuvius Vulcan the year 79 A.D.
It was rediscovered in 1946 I believe, when people started digging the whole shit up.
So now you can walk there in a 2000 year old dug up city, go into houses and everything.
The guide led us into a building which used to be a Roman whorehouse, and all around on the walls I witnessed very beautiful pornographic mosaics, which could not be described as "softporn"
It was the hardcore shit.

Thinkin about censorship would be as stupid as sittin at the latest state of the union hands clappin.

[ms.peachy]

Ms. Marlene, not that you do not have a right to your opinion, but I'd like you to stop using the word 'feminist' as being synonymous with your position as though you have an exclusive claim to it. I consider myself to be quite a strong feminist, and for me that means women being allowed to be as fully sexual as they desire - and as consenting adults if the way they feel is OK for them to express that is by having sex on film, than I don't really have a problem with that. We do ourselves no favours by infantilising women as being these powerless little things that are manipulated into doing things they otherwise would not do.

When you take a about 'sex slaves' and people trafficking, you are confusing the issue. There is a huge amount of difference between this repugnant practice, and a couple who enjoys a healthy sex life that may include videoing themselves and posting it on the internet. It is all about consent and adult choices. Of course people trafficking is repulsive. As is child pornography. But why should informed and free adults not be allowed to photograph or film themsleves getting off doing whatever it is that they get off doing?

I won't even disagree that porn is, to a degree, an objectification of people. Not just women, but everyone 'in the picture'. That is because porn, let us not forget, is a means of escapist fantasy. It is not a reflection of real life. Yes there are some dullards out there that confuse the two, but those are people that have a bit of a reality problem to begin with. And I do think it is unfortunate in some ways that more people are exposed to pornography at a younger age these days, because, as it is fantasy, it may set up unrealistic expectations for young people who then think that they should be having the kind of sex they've seen on screen and can't work out what's wrong with them that they don't - but this generally works itself out over time.

Let's face it - if you're a bloke who's a bit shy, can't quite work out how to talk to women, maybe are a bit self conscious about your personal appearance, to be able to watch a video and escape into that little fantasy world where there are pretty girls who are just so crazy for cock they'll have sex with anybody, maybe even a guy like you - one imagines that might be a happy little diversion from reality for him, eh? It's only a problem if that behaviour becomes obesessive, and said bloke withdraws increasingly from the real world in favour of the celluloid fantasy one. Which does happen - but as I said, that's someone who has a reality porblem and some issues about women to begin with.

What does viewing porn have to offer women? Well, one aspect of it is the opportunity to be allowed to sort of revel in a bit of sluttiness, honestly. Lots of women have sexual fantasies that they would not ever in a million years want to live out in real life, but that they enjoy safely exploring through porn and role-play. For example, many women find the idea of having sex with several men quite exciting - imagine being the center of all that attention! Big hard cocks everywhere you turn! Getting totally worked over by a buch of men who will fuck you silly, and then leave! Whoopie! But the thing is that in the fanstasy you get all of the good bits - that stuff I just mentioned - and none of the bad bits that would inevitably infringe on the enjoyment of such an event in real life - fear of pregnancy, STD's, what would the neighbours say, what if one of the guys used this to blackmail you, etc etc. But you can watch and enjoy a film, and identify with the woman on screen for a little while, and maybe act it out a bit with your partner (okay granted he will have to play more than one part, and you may need some props...) The fact is, for a lot of women who feel they have to be responsible and respectable all bloody day long, to take an evening out now and again to NOT think and NOT care about anything except gittin yo' freak on like a big ol' ho is, well, rather nice.

As I mentioned earlier, the numbers of women enjoying porn as consumers are ever increasing. Largely this is because the ability to access it is now more discreet than ever. Once upon a time one had to go to seedy theaters to see dirty movies, and clearly that is not something that was going to appeal to most women - hanging out in a grubby porn palace with old men in raincoats? Erm, no thanks. So it was 8mm projectors in the rumpus room, then. Still not very practical, although to be sure it was not only men watching. Then came the home video revolution, and suddenly men could rent/buy videos easily and bring them home - by themsleves, or with a partner. And slowly but surely, women became bolder as they realised that they too are entitled to enjoy and take charge of their own sex lives, and started picking them up as well. And now, with the internet, Hey! you don't even have to leave home! No need to worry that that nosy lady who heads the PTA is going to spot you ducking behind that curtain at the back of the local shop! Woo hoo!

Also there are more and more women taking control 'behind the scenes' - many sisters are, quite literally, doing it for themselves. One probably doesn't often think of Bob Guccione's Penthouse empire as being a bastion of feminism, but his organisation is actually way more 'girl power' than most. The percentage of women in management and editorial positions is somewhere up around 80%, and they enjoy excellent benefits. I sincerely doubt that they feel objectified or exploited.

[venusvenus123]

I was just saying.

You will certainly find evolutionary biologists who will agree with you and argue that men are more or less exclusively wired one way and women another, but it is a controversial field and there is by no means universal agreement.

Good luck in your studies. It's an endlessly fascinating subject.
i haven't the time (or much inclination) to read this thread.

but... i just want to say, you can study psychology in a little room till your arse is as numb as a brick... go have a kid... and you will see that boys and girls are wired completely differently, no question.

[ASsman]

I hope I'm atleast right about that.

personally, i don't know or care to know what drdrew says. he is not an expert....
Meh, he is a doctor first. And as for expert, expert in what? Treating peoples emotional and psychological problems, it seem that he is. Hes not called the "Love Doctor" for no reason, and I know how silly that sounds. And his understanding of gynecology seems to be enough. He's gotten a lot of questions about womens vaginas (and all those other parts I have now forgotten) and seems to be vary capable of answering them. Never have I heard him turn down a question about the female physiology, or not answer it.

[ms.peachy]

i haven't the time (or much inclination) to read this thread.

but... i just want to say, you can study psychology in a little room till your arse is as numb as a brick... go have a kid... and you will see that boys and girls are wired completely differently, no question.


Well I don't expect you to actually come back and see this since as you've said you can't be bothered to actually read what's been said :rolleyes: but if you did take the time to read the actual words on the page I never said that boys girls were the same, what I said - verbatim - is that there are evolutionary biologists who will argue that men are more or less exclusively wired one way and women another, but it is a controversial field and there is by no means universal agreement.

Which is a) true, and b) not the same as what you were implying.

[venusvenus123]

:rolleyes:

[ms.peachy]

Oh look, you're back.

But not reading though, only looking at the pictures I take it.

Well that's OK. It is a thread about porn, after all.

[venusvenus123]

i'm sure you'd be a barrel of laughs to have a drink with.

i don't know why you take it so personally that i didn't have the time or inclination to read the whole thread-- it was nothing to do with your posts at all. i just picked up on your post on the first page and thought i would add to the discussion on gender-specific behaviour.

[ms.peachy]

i'm sure you'd be a barrel of laughs to have a drink with.
True! You should come out with me and paul jones tomorrow; we're going to go see Hero in Liecester Square and then hit the pub.
i don't know why you take it so personally that i didn't have the time or inclination to read the whole thread-- it was nothing to do with your posts at all. i just picked up on your post on the first page and thought i would add to the discussion on gender-specific behaviour.
I wasn't taking it personally; I was making a joke. But I can appreciate that the way it occurred in my head maybe didn't carry over well in this medium - I know I can be rather sarcastic, which does not always translate well. I'm sorry if I offended you; I actually meant it all rather lightly but looking back over it now I can see how it might not look it.

[venusvenus123]

it's ok; i need a nap:o ... one of about a hundred years

i can't make it tomorrow i'm afraid, but hero is a beautiful film... although i think i preferred house of flying daggers. another time perhaps.

[Whois]

that's fucking sick!

:-o===============


"Baaa..." - Dolly the Sheep

[Whois]

What about bullshit like Lifetime Movies and Sex & the City? Men are totally objectified. You'd think the only thing men were good for are money, random sex and beating women.

What's funny is, I'll bet she doesn't object to gay porn...

"It's so....squirty." - My wife on gay pron

[Whois]

it's interesting that you think any random male would be just like you....people are individuals not stereotypes.

You seem like a pretty typical stereotype...

[ASsman]

Yah, who would be objectified. The guy giving it, or the guy receiving it. Or both.
(Twilight Zone theme song)

[Qdrop]

Yah, who would be objectified. The guy giving it, or the guy receiving it. Or both.
(Twilight Zone theme song)


:p :p

[Ace42]

Upset at being objectified? > . <--- that's the world's smallest violin playing just for you.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/bangbangbang.shtml

[ms.peachy]

This thread's been so inspiring, I went out and bought a new DVD.

So I won't be around here much later on :p

[Marlene]

Also there are more and more women taking control 'behind the scenes' - many sisters are, quite literally, doing it for themselves. One probably doesn't often think of Bob Guccione's Penthouse empire as being a bastion of feminism, but his organisation is actually way more 'girl power' than most. The percentage of women in management and editorial positions is somewhere up around 80%, and they enjoy excellent benefits. I sincerely doubt that they feel objectified or exploited.


penthouse? that is the fucking worst porno mag in regards to objectifing women. omg. i can't believe you as a self proclaimed feminist even wrote that.

oh, well.....to each their own.

i see nothing wrong with two consenting adults or more or whathave you taping themselves or whatever, but i don't want to see that in my house or anywhere else.

yes, men and women are wired differently, but "male" values continue to dominate society and are the cause of many of society's ills. if a women would rather play like a boy (penis envy? i dunno) that's her right, but if a woman chooses to instead celebrate "female" values that is her right as well. imo it's just too bad that so many women are role modeling themselves after men.

[Whois]

This thread's been so inspiring, I went out and bought a new DVD.

So I won't be around here much later on :p

Porn?

I had to ask... :eek:

[ms.peachy]

penthouse? that is the fucking worst porno mag in regards to objectifing women. omg. i can't believe you as a self proclaimed feminist even wrote that.
Well, if you actually believe that Penthouse is "the worst when it comes to objectification of women", then I can completely accept that you sure haven't seen much porn. Penthouse is relatively fluffy; barely more than softcore.

oh, well.....to each their own.
Which is pretty much my point exactly.

i see nothing wrong with two consenting adults or more or whathave you taping themselves or whatever, but i don't want to see that in my house or anywhere else.
Define 'anywhere else'? Are your friends allowed to have it in their houses? What about your parents, are they allowed to own any porn? Or your neighbours? How's it any of your business if they do? Should they have to hide it, if they don't want to?
yes, men and women are wired differently, but "male" values continue to dominate society and are the cause of many of society's ills. if a women would rather play like a boy (penis envy? i dunno) that's her right, but if a woman chooses to instead celebrate "female" values that is her right as well. imo it's just too bad that so many women are role modeling themselves after men.
I don't have male values or female values. I have human values.

It's a shame you choose to see women whose values are different from yours as 'modeling themselves after men'. To me, being a feminist means being free of having to label people into rigid gender stereotypes. How is humanity served by dividing everyone into little camps, exactly?

If you care to read more on the subject of female empowerment vis a vis porn, here is an excellent article. (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1426387)

In addition, you might want to consider making an effort to get to know or do some research on some women sex workers, and hear firsthand a bit about how they view themselves, their work and their sexuality. You might be surprised.

[ASsman]

What about Supermodels? And modeling, and the like. Or wearing makeup? Or wearing a short dress. Implants, lesbian porn...

Yah I just kind of threw that last one in, but still. And I bet most of your male friends beat-off, if not all. The way I see it, they would objectify women everytime they filled up a tube sock.

[phinkasaurus]

a few replies, if I may.

I don't masturbate to porn. I did, when I was younger. generally it's imagination and ususally it's past girlfriends or other women I know. and normally it's thinking about sex or sexual acts.
and yes porn does arouse me, like it would any male. it's naked women and my hormones won't allow me to not be aroused. but since I don't live my life based solely on my hormones and instints, I choose to not engage in that sort of entertainment, simply because I find it so insulting, to me and to women.

and I am certain plenty of women in all aspects of the industry find it empowering and are wielding more and ,more control over their lives. great.

to me the root problem here is not female porn or male porn, it's exploitation and an unhealthy view of human sexuality. if a couple wants to film their sex and show people, great. if people want to witness it, buy it or masturbate to it, great for them, the issue comes when people are forced into it( I think we all agree here) and that the "fantasy" part of it is SO far removed from reality it becomes unhealthy.
the point some one brought up about the societies expectations of men and women (manly men sleep around and women are demure and not sluts) is directly related or intertwined somehow to this whole issue of unequal treatment of the sexes. like all ASsman's comments about people looking for a quick fuck or a one night stand or being dogs or horrible images of men on t.v. etc. this is unequal treatment and poor images to pass on to our society.

I see nothing wrong with people, both women and men, expolring and embracing their sexuality, that can only lead to better relations between the sexex. the issue is the complete disregard for REALITY in sexual relations and the unattasinable expectations put forth by the porn industry.

and men cannot get erect under periods of extreme emotional stress, like being raped (against their wil that is, which is the definiton of rape, otherwise it's rough sex)

and drdrew is a glorified guidance counseler.

(n)

[Marlene]

well, i just had me a come to jesus moment.

:)

[Ace42]

This thread's been so inspiring, I went out and bought a new DVD.


Mama's got a squeeze-box, daddy never sleeps at night.

[Rosie Cotton]

Mama's got a squeeze-box, daddy never sleeps at night.
COme on and squeeze like you do
I'm so in love with you
Mama's got a squeezebox, daddy never sleeps at night

[ms.peachy]

a few replies, if I may.

I don't masturbate to porn. I did, when I was younger. generally it's imagination and ususally it's past girlfriends or other women I know. and normally it's thinking about sex or sexual acts.
and yes porn does arouse me, like it would any male. it's naked women and my hormones won't allow me to not be aroused. but since I don't live my life based solely on my hormones and instints, I choose to not engage in that sort of entertainment, simply because I find it so insulting, to me and to women.)

If you do not choose to include it as part of your sex life, that is of course your business and that's fine. As a woman who enjoys porn, whilst I can see that there does exist a segment of the industry that I find distasteful, the field is so wide and varied that to make a judgement that say ALL porn is insulting to ALL women is, well, just plain inaccurate at best.

People like to look at other nekkid people doin' it. It's really that simple.

and I am certain plenty of women in all aspects of the industry find it empowering and are wielding more and ,more control over their lives. great.

to me the root problem here is not female porn or male porn, it's exploitation and an unhealthy view of human sexuality. if a couple wants to film their sex and show people, great. if people want to witness it, buy it or masturbate to it, great for them, the issue comes when people are forced into it( I think we all agree here) and that the "fantasy" part of it is SO far removed from reality it becomes unhealthy.

Define exploitation though. When you try to nail it down to a point, you may find it difficult.

Let's say you have a young boy, 18, doesn't come from the most well off family, hasn't done particularly well in school. Gets a football scholarship at a university. He maybe doesn't get such a great education because really, the university wanted him for their football team, not their jet propulsion lab. In other words - they want him for his physical abilities, they're not really interested in his mind or his personality or anything. After all, college athletics is a big business, and they need guys like him to make money. Not to worry - he'll be financially compensated though, and he'll get lots of attention. Maybe he'll even end up being famous.

Is he being exploited? Should we disallow college football then?

Someone who is forced into something has not consented. Non consent is bad. Yes I can certainly agree with you there. And yes it is unfortunate that some young women (and men) get into sex work because they feel forced into it, i.e., due to self esteem issues or financial pressures or lack of other obvious opportunity they don't percieve another viable choice. But that doesn't make 'porn' bad - the issue there is, why did these people feel that this was their best or only option. Which is a much more complex issue, and isn't really about porn at all.
the point some one brought up about the societies expectations of men and women (manly men sleep around and women are demure and not sluts) is directly related or intertwined somehow to this whole issue of unequal treatment of the sexes. like all ASsman's comments about people looking for a quick fuck or a one night stand or being dogs or horrible images of men on t.v. etc. this is unequal treatment and poor images to pass on to our society.)
Who gets to determine overall what are 'poor images to pass on to society'? Once you start down the slippery slope of censorship, it's pretty easy to lose your footing and go careening downhill.

I reckon it's far better to educate people, and let them determine for themselves what they would like to view/read/buy etc. For example, although I may disgree with many of Marlene's opinions that she has stated in this thread, the fact that she doesn't want to buy porn or have it in the privacy of her own home is absolutely fine and appropriate - it is her home. The problem is when we start telling ohter people what they can and can't enjoy in the privacy of their own homes, because we don't like it.

There are folks out their who would like to ban the sale of violent video games because of the negative images they promote. Should you as an adult not be allowed to play GTA:SA in your home, because someone else thiks it's not good for society?

I see nothing wrong with people, both women and men, expolring and embracing their sexuality, that can only lead to better relations between the sexex. the issue is the complete disregard for REALITY in sexual relations and the unattasinable expectations put forth by the porn industry.

Being upset that the porn industry puts out stuff that is unrealistic is a bit like being upset that your life isn't like Star Trek. It's the entertainment business, mate! Hollywood, et al! I mean come on - since when do movies or images have to be a mirror of reality? How boooooring a world would that be? As I said before, people who confuse professional porn with reality have a reality problem to begin with.

And anyway, if real is what you want - there's loads of amateur porn made by happy couples (or trios or whatever) that's basically just real regular home vids of real regular people with real regular bodies having real regular sex.


and men cannot get erect under periods of extreme emotional stress, like being raped (against their wil that is, which is the definiton of rape, otherwise it's rough sex)

not sure why you would bother to bring that up, it's not really related. Non consent and all that wot wot. (I'm not even entirely convinced it's an accurate statement, to be honest; I may be inclined to do a bit of research...later).

[Marlene]

i hate to be simplistic, but i don't have much time.....i think as alluded to by phinkasaurus age is an issue with this topic. i've seen a couple in my time, too, but i was much much younger....like in high school (but i digress). i do believe the bottom line is this type of "entertainment" lends itself to unhealthy views towards women...and also in some cases unrealistic expectations (as previously stated by phinkasaurus).

when i say i don't want to see it i mean i don't want to see it in my home or on my computer. i'll never forget years ago surfing to ledzeppelin.com and landing on a porno page. this crap should not be out there for kids to get lay their eyes on....i believe it isn't healthy. it's not like porn is educational in nature. if you want to watch it in your home go right ahead. me? i'd rather be doing it than watching it.

[Rosie Cotton]

i do believe the bottom line is this type of "entertainment" lends itself to unhealthy views towards women...and also in some cases unrealistic expectations (as previously stated by phinkasaurus).
Ummmmmm......gay porn? How are women being objectified when it's two (or more) men on screen?

P.S. Gay porn is hilarious.