Killing is "fun"?

[D_Raay]

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4153541/detail.html

At a panel discussion in San Diego Tuesday, a top Marine general tells an audience that, among other things, it is "fun to shoot some people."

The comment, made by Lt. Gen. James Mattis, came in reference to fighting insurgents in Iraq. He went on to say, "Actually, its a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling."

"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for 5 years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis continued. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."
And while I too am happy about the election even happening in Iraq, although I will never forgive or forget this administration's role in getting us there to begin with, we have this from a Lt. Gen in the marine corps. stationed in Iraq. Commanding troops of young soldiers (well some old too) no less.

While Q's uncle seems commendable indeed, Ace's point is well made and stands I believe...

[Ace42]

I can't wait until that Marine gets bored at home.

"Hmmm, cut-out targets just aren't doing it for me anymore."

Good thing the US is going to go into Iran and Syria. Keep people like that from murdering the wrong sort of person (white).

[Rosie Cotton]

He's not married is he? If so, I nominate his wife for his first post-war victim.

[Qdrop]

yeah....i heard about this yesterday...

it's certainly NOT unbeleivable that someone like him is in the armed forces...but it's unbelievable that someone with his mental outlook could rise so far in the ranks.

that's fuckin terrifying.....


though, unlike Ace and Rose....i am not going to make the jump to calling him a future serial killer.....

Ace, let's not start that "conditioned response" argument again. ;)

[ASsman]

Yah, because that guy is a black sheep. No one else thinks that way, they are all bleeding hearts. A little moment of silence after every kill, snipers especially.

"You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."
And who ever heard of dehumanizing your enemy to justify his killing? Probably the Japs who came up with that shit.

[Bob]

yeah....i heard about this yesterday...

it's certainly NOT unbeleivable that someone like him is in the armed forces...but it's unbelievable that someone with his mental outlook could rise so far in the ranks.

that's fuckin terrifying.....


though, unlike Ace and Rose....i am not going to make the jump to calling him a future serial killer.....

Ace, let's not start that "conditioned response" argument again. ;)

i don't think anyone's saying he's gonna be a serial killer, just a wife-beater. possibly a child abuser,too (i'm thinking of lester in american beauty).

[ASsman]

I just don't think hes going to find the answer to life in killing a bunch of Iraqis. Become a philosopher, or have anything good come as a result. Not sure how the effects differ from a volunteer or a draftee (whose effects are now obvious).

[Qdrop]

Yah, because that guy is a black sheep. No one else thinks that way, they are all bleeding hearts. A little moment of silence after every kill, snipers especially.


And who ever heard of dehumanizing your enemy to justify his killing? Probably the Japs who came up with that shit.

honestly, none of us really have ANY experiance or knowledge on this...past what we read in articles and see in movies....

people just make wild, anti-military assumptions based on thier OWN biases and beliefs.


i can say that many of the males in my immediate family have been, or are in the armed services.....a few of them seeing combat (from korea, Nam, to the persian gulf, to afganastan and Iraq)...and none of them have yet to "go postal", beat there wives, or commit any acts of violence that i know of througout the years....
they assimilated back into society just fine...had families in most cases.

i've never walked up to a cousin or uncle, patted them on the back...and have them spin around and break my arm screaming "DITTY MAO, DITTY MAO!!....." or whatever.... :rolleyes:

oh, and NONE of them own guns either...
how bout that?

[jegtar]

Next thing you know we will be cutting off their heads and posting it on the internet.

[ASsman]

honestly, none of us really have ANY experiance or knowledge on this...past what we read in articles and see in movies....
So, I need to kill someone.. to understand how it effects a me as a person.... interesting. Ill try it out, and get back to you.

people just make wild, anti-military assumptions based on thier OWN biases and beliefs.
Yah, that is true. I get all my military assumptions from movies like Forest Gump, and "University Studies", why we should trust these "Universities" is beyond me.

i can say that many of the males in my immediate family have been, or are in the armed services.....a few of them seeing combat (from korea, Nam, to the persian gulf, to afganastan and Iraq)...and none of them have yet to "go postal", beat there wives, or commit any acts of violence that i know of througout the years....
UP! Damn, you right. You've totally defeated all those hippie arguments, and "Scientific" "Research", with your own experience. I also hear they say beating a kid causes trauma and they go on to beat their kids, complete horeshit. Look at me I turned out just fine.

they assimilated back into society just fine...had families in most cases.
The estimated lifetime prevalence of PTSD among American Vietnam theater veterans is 30.9% for men and 26.9% for women.
Hahah, horseshit.
An additional 22.5% of men and 21.2% of women have had partial PTSD at some point in their lives.
WTF! More horseshit. I got it from this website http://www.horseshit.com.


i've never walked up to a cousin or uncle, patted them on the back...and have them spin around and break my arm screaming "DITTY MAO, DITTY MAO!!....." or whatever....
Damn, I can't even respond to that. I'm at a loss of words. I will have to concede to that.

oh, and NONE of them own guns either...
That's why they teach you how to kill a man with your own hands, take his skin off and wear it as a blanket.

Science - 0 Qdrop - 3

Uhhraaa.

[ASsman]

Combat stress: The war within

(CNN) -- Almost two out of every 10 U.S. troops who have faced combat in Iraq may return with serious symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder, according to an unprecedented study....

Horseshit.com (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/07/01/post.traumatic.stress/index.html)
--------------
Hahah, incase you haven't heard "CNN" but Qdrop has like 20 relatives in the Armed forces... none of which has eaten a man alive. So you can take your "two out of ten" horseshit and eat it!

[Qdrop]

So, I need to kill someone.. to understand how it effects a me as a person.... interesting. Ill try it out, and get back to you.

the fuck are you talking about?
we have no experiance military training, being under fire, or assimilating back into society.
funny jokes won't change that.....


Yah, that is true. I get all my military assumptions from [edit]... "University Studies", why we should trust these "Universities" is beyond me.

okay....list those studies.



UP! Damn, you right. You've totally defeated all those hippie arguments, and "Scientific" "Research", with your own experience. I also hear they say beating a kid causes trauma and they go on to beat their kids, complete horeshit. Look at me I turned out just fine.

again, list your "research."



That's why they teach you how to kill a man with your own hands, take his skin off and wear it as a blanket.


dude, my uncle did that ONCE...ONCE. and it looked amazing with his deer skin boots...you should have seen it.


concerning your PTSD stats...
i have had this debate with others who went that same website and pulled those stats....

interesting thing about those stats (and any stats, really)...you can manipulate them to say ALOT of things....depending on what you want the result to be.

it's called false positives....including occurances not related to the subject to increase your numbers...
"throwing out a bigger net".
for example....look at the symptoms they list for PTSD...
look at all of them..
they include sleeplessness and depression among other common complaints of an normal human.

how many times have you been sleepless or depressed?
is it cause you have PTSD?
no, you've never even been in the army.

but see, those doing the study...they need to justify their research, their grants, GAIN SOME ATTENTION FOR THEIR FUCKIN "CAUSE"!...
so, obviously...they want to inflate thier stats....
SO THEY ASK THE VETS "have you had any bouts of depression?...or sleeplessness?...have you been stressed?

of course they answer yes!!.....who doesn't have those symptoms at some point.
but that goes down as a "positive" for the study....and the percentages rise.

does this mean that the entire study is bullshit?
no.
of course their are true instances of PTSD....


but just be a little more skeptical.

try being as skeptical as a republican stating a stat that says "48% of liberals are child molesters....i have research on that".

you can't just be skeptical of things you don't agree with....while giving leniancy to those that you do...
it's called "a double standard"....

[Qdrop]

Combat stress: The war within

(CNN) -- Almost two out of every 10 U.S. troops who have faced combat in Iraq may return with serious symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder, according to an unprecedented study....

Horseshit.com (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/07/01/post.traumatic.stress/index.html)
--------------
Hahah, incase you haven't heard "CNN" but Qdrop has like 20 relatives in the Armed forces... none of which has eaten a man alive. So you can take your "two out of ten" horseshit and eat it!


see, i believe the initial sentiment of our debate was over wartime vets coming back to society as violent, impulsive dangers....

not sure how this morphed into "being depressed, with anxiety, ect"

last i checked, those things don't equate to skinning a man alive.
please explain...

[ASsman]

Hahaha, of course it doesn't equate to skinning a man... duh. Jesus Christ.

And as for my research, look at the links there are links on the CNN page to more resources, you might learn somethings. And it's all the same (in a sense), these are after-effects of killing and stress. These people with PTSD don't go home and buy a fucking kittie cat. Not saying that the majority are going to go home and commit mass-murder, that just idiotic.
But to say that NOT A SINGLE PERSON can be effected by PTSD and kill someone and wear their skin as blanket, is equally idiotic.

More information.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.fit.to.kill.html

Fit To Kill
Young soldiers are trained to kill, sent into combat and then return home to civilian life, where the experience of killing will stay with them for years. How are soldiers trained to kill and how do they cope? The story »

[Qdrop]

Hahaha, of course it doesn't equate to skinning a man... duh. Jesus Christ.

dude, don't bring jesus into this..
we don't need Racer or ILL poking their heads in...


And as for my research, look at the links there are links on the CNN page to more resources, you might learn somethings. And it's all the same (in a sense), these are after-effects of killing and stress. These people with PTSD don't go home and buy a fucking kittie cat.

didn't say they did...
if i implyed that, i'm sorry.


Not saying that the majority are going to go home and commit mass-murder, that just idiotic.

then i'm not sure what we are arguing about.


But to say that NOT A SINGLE PERSON can be effected by PTSD and kill someone and wear their skin as blanket, is equally idiotic.

of course. instances such as those DO happen, though one must also consider the soilders pre-existing mental state before combat as well.

if we are debating whether many soilders come home from war time with certain emotional issues, ect....well, then we aren't debating. i agree.
if someone killed a bunch of people and had NO problem with it...i would think them quite odd.


and of course thier are instances when a returning vet just completely loses it and gets violent....

but the VAST majority of returning soilders are NOT emotionally crippled or violent danger bombs waiting to explode.


do you see how citing PTSD stats from thier website doesn't prove anything of that nature?


More information.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.fit.to.kill.html



interesting stuff...
it does show, though, how the military conducts post war counseling on the soilders to assess thier mental states before returning to normal life.

[ASsman]

but the VAST majority of returning soilders are NOT emotionally crippled or violent danger bombs waiting to explode.
That's kind of what the definition of PSTD is (without the violent part). And what I'm arguing is all that "My uncle, my brother" horseshit that somehow disproves scientific research.



Almost two out of every 10 U.S. troops who have faced combat in Iraq may return with serious symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder, according to an unprecedented study.
If you can sleep with 8/10 not coming home fucked up, that's your prerogative. But when you say that it doesn't happen, or it really doesn't "cripple" people, it does. PSTD is "crippling" in many aspects, and of course everyone will react differently regardless of their previous "metal state".

2 out of 10 of 150,000... you do the math. And I assure you, the increasing of their tour there from 2 years to 2 more years to 2 more years, will increase that probability.

Soldiers with problems are referred to counseling or a chaplain. But therapy is often seen as a sign of weakness in a macho culture, even when dealing with memories of innocents caught in the crossfire of war.
If you don't take my word for it I can find an article. But Im pretty sure that sometimes signs don't arise for some time, so they couldn't really treat it if they don't see it. And of course someone might be trying to hide the fact, because they feel it's not very "patriotic" to care about some dune coons.

[Whois]

I can't wait until that Marine gets bored at home.

"Hmmm, cut-out targets just aren't doing it for me anymore."

Good thing the US is going to go into Iran and Syria. Keep people like that from murdering the wrong sort of person (white).

"DIE HONKEY!"

"Um...Bob...you're white."

"oh yeah, shit I got so caught up in the fun that I lost track..."

[ASsman]

I remember footage on FOX, it was of Marines standing near some artillery batteries. As he watched the shells landing and blowing buildings he was like "Wooooohhoooo" with his buddies. I laughed, then became sad.

Err outside of Fellujah.

[Whois]

Qdrop spewed: "honestly, none of us really have ANY experiance or knowledge on this...past what we read in articles and see in movies.... "

Hmm, guess I'd better rip up my DD214 then...you really are an ignorant putz.

[Whois]

I remember footage on FOX, it was of Marines standing near some artillery batteries. As he watched the shells landing and blowing buildings he was like "Wooooohhoooo" with his buddies. I laughed, then became sad.

Then there were those guys (Army) who finished off a wounded Iraqi during the initial invasion (caught on video and broadcast all over the US)...they laughed and said that it was a great rush to kill someone.

[Qdrop]

That's kind of what the definition of PSTD is (without the violent part). And what I'm arguing is all that "My uncle, my brother" horseshit that somehow disproves scientific research.

i think you can gather from many of my previous posts, that i am a man of science.
of course i value research.

i am just skeptical of stats in general...as well as funded organizations set up for a cause that perform the research....despite the subject matter.


however....me stating "real world examples" of my family is important...and is just as important as math on paper.
if the tables were reversed or if the subject of this debate were differant, i have not doubt you put a heavier lean on personal experiance rather than stats...

such as the porn debate on the other thread.



If you can sleep with 8/10 not coming home fucked up, that's your prerogative. But when you say that it doesn't happen, or it really doesn't "cripple" people, it does. PSTD is "crippling" in many aspects, and of course everyone will react differently regardless of their previous "metal state".

2 out of 10 of 150,000... you do the math. And I assure you, the increasing of their tour there from 2 years to 2 more years to 2 more years, will increase that probability.

again, though....you are lumping. a very common occurrance when stats get thrown around.
you are trying assume that those "estimated" 2 out of 10...or 20%....can all be grouped into "emotionally crippled".
i repeat:PTSD does NOT equal emotionally crippled.
it does not.
there are levels of PTSD severity.

i'm not sugarcoating or glossing over it, or understating....it is very real.

but i'm not going to let PTSD get turned into an automatic life destroying disease that is running rampant in vets for the sake of your argument.
something the media has had fun doing in the past.

of those ESTIMATED 20%, which percent will incurr life-debilitating effects? (loss of marraige, friends, job, violence, ect).
do you know?....
what's the stat on that?

no one knows that....but it certainly doesn't appear to be strikingly high among that already small 20% (again, estimated).

also, who estimated these numbers?
how did they estimate them?

your defacto retort to defend these numbers has been "it's science...research".
is it science?
look at who made those estimates...how they got them....

tell me, is it science.....or is it....the media.
cause we all know the media NEVER exagerates or sensationalises for effect....
:rolleyes:

[Qdrop]

...you really are an ignorant putz.

i am much, much smarter than you.




man...here we go again.
gang up on the "non-liberal" by attacking his character.
"he's disagreeing with a liberal idea or mantra!...he must be stupid!
let's attack him personally!!"

how are you differant from republicans again?



i have shown time and time again that i am far from a conservative, very educated, and competant in a debate.

you can't marganalize me, whois.

i can out debate you any fuckin day of the week....
and you know it.

[ASsman]

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/1/13

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/search?andorexactfulltext=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&excludeflag=TWEEK_element&search_tab=articles&searchtitle=Articles&hits=20&searchterm=Iraq&sendit=GO&where=fulltext&sortspec=Score+desc+PUBDATE_SORTDATE+desc&fmonth=Feb&fyear=1995&tmonth=Feb&tyear=2005&tocsectionid=Original+Articles&tocsectionid=Special+Reports&tocsectionid=Special+Articles&tocsectionid=Clinical+Practice&tocsectionid=Review+ArticlesAORBClinical+PracticeA ORBClinical+Implications+of+Basic+ResearchAORBMole cular+Medicine&tocsectionid=EditorialsAORBPerspectiveAORBOutlookA ORBBehind+the+Research&tocsectionid=Sounding+BoardAORBClinical+Debate&tocsectionid=Clinical+Implications+of+Basic+Resear ch&tocsectionid=Health+Policy*AORBQuality+of+Health+C are

The study found 17 percent of those who served in Iraq met the criteria for major depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder -- or PTSD. Eleven percent who served in Afghanistan met the criteria.

But even worse, the study found, was that less than 40 percent of those afflicted by PTSD sought help.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/07/01/post.traumatic.stress/index.html


And yes I understand there are different levels of PTS. And those Vietnam statistics were those effected with "extreme" PTSD, I believe about half of all Vets had some level of PTSD.

http://www.ncptsd.org/

"he's disagreeing with a liberal idea or mantra!...he must be stupid!
Meh, for example. People who are like half-assed on the war, I don't care much for them. Democrats and so on, they are like "Well it's not really an illegal war, we aren't gunhoe about it like the neo-cons", "well we really fucked up in Iraq, but if the nail bends it's better to smash it all the way in, instead of pulling it out and getting a new nail" (like that metaphor didn't yah!).
So I have to say I agree with whois to some extent. Like all those people who are like "Support our troops", but wait? This is an illegal war, so all those soldiers are war criminals. Ontop of that all these soldiers are there out of their own free-will, they aren't forced to do anything. "Just following orders" doesn't fly here buster.

[Qdrop]

And yes I understand there are different levels of PTS. And those Vietnam statistics were those effected with "extreme" PTSD, I believe about half of all Vets had some level of PTSD.


what you believe isn't really important...if we are indeed sticking to science...or, unfortunately, stats.


i really don't know what we are agruing about.
we both agree PTSD is real and a small minority of vets have it.
of those small minority, an even smaller minority incurr life debiltating emotional issues they are unable to overcome...and/or commit violence.

that sucks.
i agree.

but as your own stat showed...a pretty significant number of those vets refuse to recieve any initial or longterm counseling.
who's at fault there?

we are just arguing for the sake of arguing here....

let's not fall into the E-penis debate shit...

"who ever gets the last word" shit....

we are in agreement on the this....but are just quibbling over bullshit details to sooth our ego's.

[jegtar]

Like all those people who are like "Support our troops", but wait? This is an illegal war, so all those soldiers are war criminals. Ontop of that all these soldiers are there out of their own free-will, they aren't forced to do anything. "Just following orders" doesn't fly here buster.

Are you saying that you are for no military what-so-ever or do you support a non-volunteer military (draft)? It has to be one or the other

[Qdrop]

Meh, for example. People who are like half-assed on the war, I don't care much for them. Democrats and so on, they are like "Well it's not really an illegal war, we aren't gunhoe about it like the neo-cons", "well we really fucked up in Iraq, but if the nail bends it's better to smash it all the way in, instead of pulling it out and getting a new nail" (like that metaphor didn't yah!).
So I have to say I agree with whois to some extent. Like all those people who are like "Support our troops", but wait? This is an illegal war, so all those soldiers are war criminals. Ontop of that all these soldiers are there out of their own free-will, they aren't forced to do anything. "Just following orders" doesn't fly here buster.

well i understand your "all or nothing" view.
i just don't agree with it.

but if you want me to admit that my cousin and uncle are war criminals, fuck...you're obviously barking up the wrong tree.
(i do understand that that is the natural outcome of you rational on the war).

[ASsman]

I just don't appreciate your dimissing of it. Like 20% isn't a significant number... or a lot of these people won't be troubled enough for you to care.

The percentage of study subjects whose responses met the screening criteria for major depression, PTSD, or alcohol misuse was significantly higher among soldiers after deployment than before deployment, particularly with regard to PTSD.

Table 3 : http://content.nejm.org/content/vol351/issue1/images/large/06t3.jpeg

Table 3. Perceived Mental Health Problems and Percentage of Subjects Who Met the Screening Criteria for Major Depression, Generalized Anxiety, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, and Alcohol Misuse.


but if you want me to admit that my cousin and uncle are war criminals, fuck...you're obviously barking up the wrong tree.
Obviously that is asking too much of you. That is why I hand't brought it up.

And calling it an "all or nothing" view, don't appreciate that either.


Are you saying that you are for no military what-so-ever or do you support a non-volunteer military (draft)? It has to be one or the other
What? What I mean is that you can't say these people are just doing what their country asks of them, they are just following orders. That, that somehow saves them from being charged as war criminals. Or that I should feel sorry for them because they didn't really mean to blow up 100,000 innocent Iraqis, they were just following orders. They volunteered, no one is forcing them to do anything. So I don't see why I should "support the troops" if they are the ones doing the mass-murdering, willfully. And as for a citizens Army, that might knock some sense into people, they might see the wrong in it all. Instead of sending people who are hell bent on killing dune coons. When people start seeing things for themselves, and see that they are being sent to kill people for no LEGITIMATE reason, they will think twice about it.

[Qdrop]

i guess at this point in the debate, Assman, i don't understand why you are playing both sides of the fence.

you seem to be fighting for those poor 20% who got fucked up by uncle sam.

yet in the same breath, you call them war criminals....

so aren't they getting what they deserve, in your eyes?
they volunteered, right?


or does the 20% bother you because you think those 20% will harm society?





and i'm sorry if i seem dismissive of that 20% , ect.
that is not my intention.

[ASsman]

i guess at this point in the debate, Assman, i don't understand why you are playing both sides of the fence.
Meh, I really don't care. And yes they got what they were looking for "action". No one forced them too. But we are debating whether or not there is significant emotionally scaring in returning Iraqi Vets, not whether or not I think they should all be charged as war criminals. Thats besides the point, I would argue it would probably be a higher percentage with a citizens Army, like Vietnam, for obvious reasons. But that's for another day. We aren't arguing about whether or not these guys deserved it, but that they indeed did get it from this War, and people are coming back fucked up. Coming back to live in society.


it's certainly NOT unbeleivable that someone like him is in the armed forces...but it's unbelievable that someone with his mental outlook could rise so far in the ranks.
That is what we are arguing. That it DOES happen, and happens to a significant amount of guys. Not going apeshit, but opening pandoras box.

[Qdrop]

We aren't arguing about whether or not these guys deserved it, but that they indeed did get it from this War, and people are coming back fucked up. Coming back to live in society.

then we aren't agruing.
perhaps there is some disagreement on the amount of them, or the severity.
but i don't beleive the percent of them that are truly a danger to soceity is anything by a tiny, tiny majority.




as far as the war criminal thing: hell, go for it....say what you want.
cause i know you typing it on a message board is as far as YOU WILL EVER GO WITH IT.
you would never, ever have the nutsack to say that face to face to a vet or thier family...or even in the general public.
not without stuttering, stammering, and shitting your pants all the way through it.


if it is any consolation, i DO understand your rational though.
i don't agree with it, ....but i don't actually think it is nonsensicle.

[Qdrop]

That is what we are arguing. That it DOES happen, and happens to a significant amount of guys. Not going apeshit, but opening pandoras box.

explain.

[ASsman]

as far as the war criminal thing: hell, go for it....say what you want.
K.



you would never, ever have the nutsack to say that face to face to a vet or thier family...or even in the general public. not without stuttering, stammering, and shitting your pants all the way through it.
I would say to someone who has just lost their son in battle. You think I don't have conviction? Bullshit, look at my avatar, which I will soon turn into a stencil and make myself a shirt. You might not know but I have a lot of hate on a personal level for what the Government has done (like friends of family being murdered by a US backed "Democractic" Goverment death squads). Not sure what you believe, but ignorance as an excuse doesn't seem to be accepted much. And ignorance is all any of these people I hate can plea. Heh, conviction, I might be lazy, but I certainly don't lack conviction. That would be hypocritical of me.

And for the record I do have friends and family in the military. Wouldn't feel sorry for them, as long as I know I've tried my best to convince them. Maybe they will be the ones stuttering and stammering when they see pictures of blown up Iraqi babies. The only fear that would be present would be one of physical retribution. Which can be expected. Will not change the fact.


explain.
Uh, that's pretty much it. We really aren't arguing anything anymore. I don't believe that a lot of these guys will start killing other people, but possibly some. And that should scare you enough, to know that there are people who are emotioanlly troubled, just a flip of the switch and it could turn ugly. And as the War continues (I'm sorry, the "Conflict") I think from what I've read, that the number of people extremely effected by PTSD will increase. And there will be an increase in the number of possible ticking timebombs.

You should watch Rambo : First Blood. Illustrates my point.

[ASsman]

For all groups responding after deployment, there was a strong reported relation between combat experiences, such as being shot at, handling dead bodies, knowing someone who was killed, or killing enemy combatants, and the prevalence of PTSD. For example, among soldiers and Marines who had been deployed to Iraq, the prevalence of PTSD (according to the strict definition) increased in a linear manner with the number of firefights during deployment: 4.5 percent for no firefights, 9.3 percent for one to two firefights, 12.7 percent for three to five firefights, and 19.3 percent for more than five firefights (chi-square for linear trend, 49.44; P<0.001). Rates for those who had been deployed to Afghanistan were 4.5 percent, 8.2 percent, 8.3 percent, and 18.9 percent, respectively (chi-square for linear trend, 31.35; P<0.001). The percentage of participants who had been deployed to Iraq who reported being wounded or injured was 11.6 percent as compared with only 4.6 percent for those who had been deployed to Afghanistan. The rates of PTSD were significantly associated with having been wounded or injured (odds ratio for those deployed to Iraq, 3.27; 95 percent confidence interval, 2.28 to 4.67; odds ratio for those deployed to Afghanistan, 2.49; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.35 to 4.40).

Proves the point I made. The more we keep people over there, the higher the probability will increase.

[maddy]

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000854.html

[Qdrop]

I would[n't] say [that] to someone who has just lost their son in battle. You think I don't have conviction? Bullshit, look at my avatar, which I will soon turn into a stencil and make myself a shirt. You might not know but I have a lot of hate on a personal level for what the Government has done (like friends of family being murdered by a US backed "Democractic" Goverment death squads). Not sure what you believe, but ignorance as an excuse doesn't seem to be accepted much. And ignorance is all any of these people I hate can plea. Heh, conviction, I might be lazy, but I certainly don't lack conviction. That would be hypocritical of me.


And for the record I do have friends and family in the military. Wouldn't feel sorry for them, as long as I know I've tried my best to convince them. Maybe they will be the ones stuttering and stammering when they see pictures of blown up Iraqi babies. The only fear that would be present would be one of physical retribution. Which can be expected. Will not change the fact.

well, i'll never know....
i'll never meet you.
but sorry.....i don't think you ever would...or will.

hey, you can understand why i say that.....the internet is fuckin chock full of "tough guys" who type fast and hard....but mumble and look at thier feet most of the time in the real world.


Uh, that's pretty much it. We really aren't arguing anything anymore. I don't believe that a lot of these guys will start killing other people, but possibly some. And that should scare you enough, to know that there are people who are emotioanlly troubled, just a flip of the switch and it could turn ugly. And as the War continues (I'm sorry, the "Conflict") I think from what I've read, that the number of people extremely effected by PTSD will increase. And there will be an increase in the number of possible ticking timebombs.

well that's that.


You should watch Rambo : First Blood. Illustrates my point.
you should watch goonies.

it... doesn't illustrate my point...
but it's real good....and you should watch it.

[ASsman]

hey, you can understand why i say that.....the internet is fuckin chock full of "tough guys" who type fast and hard....but mumble and look at thier feet most of the time in the real world.
Yah, I understand. Also why it it pointless you argue the flipside of that claim.

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000854.html

Natural Born Killers

I think thats a movie too.... Interesting article. Spec Ops type people I'm sure.
"Able to eat things that'll make a billy goat sick"

I would[n't] say [that] to someone who has just lost their son in battle.
And what's with the [sic], those aren't typos. That is exactly what I mean't, I wouldn't have any remorse over their sons death, did it out of his own ignorance and free will. Viva America.

[Qdrop]

And what's with the [sic], those aren't typos. That is exactly what I mean't, I wouldn't have any remorse over their sons death, did it out of his own ignorance and free will. Viva America.

oh.



don't have kids, okay?

[ASsman]

Usually those who are prepared and SHOULD have kids don't. They are much too responsible for that, and fear messing up. While those who are irresponsible and sleep around, are the ones crapping out kids left and right. What a fucked up world we live in.

[Ace42]

Wasn't that sniper guy (was he branded "The Washington Sniper" by the media or some such?) ex-army? Or am I imaging it?

[Whois]

Wasn't that sniper guy (was he branded "The Washington Sniper" by the media or some such?) ex-army? Or am I imaging it?

"John Allen Muhammad, a 42-year old, a Desert Storm veteran, also known as John Allen Williams..."

"In the Army, Muhammad was trained as a mechanic, truck driver and specialist metalworker. He qualified as an expert with the M-16, the Army's standard infantry rifle."

Mmmm...could be.

[Qdrop]

Usually those who are prepared and SHOULD have kids don't. They are much too responsible for that, and fear messing up. While those who are irresponsible and sleep around, are the ones crapping out kids left and right. What a fucked up world we live in.

true dat.

[Qdrop]

Wasn't that sniper guy (was he branded "The Washington Sniper" by the media or some such?) ex-army? Or am I imaging it?


you boys love your red herrings.

and you really think that the military, and military ALONE was responsible for his violence?
what about pre-existing mental status?
genetics?
home-life?
upbringing?

look that up, you google-junkies.

[jegtar]

"I swear that I'm really tough! Just look at my avatar! I'm a tough guyI tell ya! I am mean and tough I tell ya, did you see my avatar?"
Priceless

[jegtar]

Wasn't that sniper guy (was he branded "The Washington Sniper" by the media or some such?) ex-army? Or am I imaging it?

Do you blame crimes that are commited by african americans on their race? It's the same rational. I know a dude that broke into this guys house and killed and robbed the owner, and he was a Besties Boy fan. That means....HOLY SHIT WE ARE ALL TICKING TIMEBOMBS!

[Qdrop]

Do you blame crimes that are commited by african americans on their race? It's the same rational. I know a dude that broke into this guys house and killed and robbed the owner, and he was a Besties Boy fan. That means....HOLY SHIT WE ARE ALL TICKING TIMEBOMBS!

what Ace is alluding to is that his military training created his violent mental status and led to his killing spree.

i was actually living in the area when this was occurring (just north of bethesdam, MD...near Baltimore.)
i was driving around the area and DC alot.....so i got to see the gas stations that errected the "safety tents" and shit....

this guys entire life story was all over the local news media after they found him....

[ASsman]

"I swear that I'm really tough! Just look at my avatar! I'm a tough guyI tell ya! I am mean and tough I tell ya, did you see my avatar?"
Hahaha, blow me. And like I said, and Qdrop, it is pointless to argue that, either side of it. And fuck you for questioning my conviction, how easy it is behind your keyboard.
Crackers like you are the ones funding this evil empire. Sincerly, fuck you. Go on and pay your taxes, help support terrorism across Latin America. Buy your slave labor goods, trailer trash. Shop at Wal-Mart, and last but not least, suck me off.

And really, if all you have is to take a quote out of context and misenterpret it for your own benefit. Then you really are a sad little man.

[Ace42]

what Ace is alluding to is that his military training created his violent mental status and led to his killing spree.

Actually, I was inquiring (something rare in my posts, I admit)

Not being a yank, or remotely concerned about your nutjobs, it is not something to which I paid even the slightest bit of interest.

[Rosie Cotton]

though, unlike Ace and Rose....i am not going to make the jump to calling him a future serial killer.....
I didn't call him a future serial killer. I just said I thought his wife would be a future victim. Didn't say of what. Besides, when someone says that it's fun to shoot people, warning bells should start going off in your head.
how many times have you been sleepless or depressed?
is it cause you have PTSD?
no, you've never even been in the army.
You do know that Post Traumatic Stress Disorder doesn't affect solely war veterans, right?

[Running_Beastie]

QDrop, I'll agree with you to an extent. You say your relatives came back and assimilated into society without any problems. I would say they probably had more difficulty than they let on or that you know about. That doesn't mean they had violent impulses toward anyone, most soldiers with PTSD don't. They tend, instead, to have problems not being nervous around groups of people. A lot of former soldiers don't let on to the PTSD because as a soldier you are taught not to reveal weakness. I was a cadet at one or our service academies recently, so I do have some experience with the training methods and how you are taught to behave. I also do have many friends and relatives who are either in the service now or were at some point. Many of them have seen serious combat. Most people who experience PTSD, and the military's own numbers run right along with those university studies that you are critisizing, aren't prone to violence. The vast majority of soldiers who come back are no threat to society whatsoever; however, you do have ones like this General who are. These people are people who usually were prone to that type of behavior before they entered the military, and the service just re-enforced it.

[D_Raay]

These people are people who usually were prone to that type of behavior before they entered the military, and the service just re-enforced it.
Ah thank you so much. Finally someone gets the point.....
Scary part is, in this present day, they will take anyone in too... To march freedom to them Arabs of course....Fuck whatever they do when they come back...

[Qdrop]

QDrop, I'll agree with you to an extent. You say your relatives came back and assimilated into society without any problems. I would say they probably had more difficulty than they let on or that you know about. That doesn't mean they had violent impulses toward anyone, most soldiers with PTSD don't.

agreed.
my argument was based more based more against "killing machine-ticking time bomb" theory that some on this board were alleging.


The vast majority of soldiers who come back are no threat to society whatsoever; however, you do have ones like this General who are. These people are people who usually were prone to that type of behavior before they entered the military, and the service just re-enforced it.

again....i agree totally.

[Qdrop]

Hahaha, blow me. And like I said, and Qdrop, it is pointless to argue that, either side of it. And fuck you for questioning my conviction, how easy it is behind your keyboard.
Crackers like you are the ones funding this evil empire. Sincerly, fuck you. Go on and pay your taxes, help support terrorism across Latin America. Buy your slave labor goods, trailer trash. Shop at Wal-Mart, and last but not least, suck me off.

And really, if all you have is to take a quote out of context and misenterpret it for your own benefit. Then you really are a sad little man.

hope that wasn't directed at me.
i made one hell of an effort not to flame with you.....even after you alluded that my uncle and cousin were war criminal who should stand charges.

[jegtar]

Go on and pay your taxes, help support terrorism across Latin America.

Everyone that went to see F 9/11 payed taxes. Didn't you go see that?

[ASsman]

No, I didn't pay anything to see it. Nice try.