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DroppinScience
02-07-2005, 02:09 AM
Very interesting and enlightening article. It looks like this administration doesn't want a draft, but the way they're going, they may run out of options and be forced to bring back the draft.

Take a look:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6862691

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The Return of the Draft

With the army desperate for recruits, should college students be packing their bags for Canada?
By TIM DICKINSON

Uncle Sam wants you. He needs you. He'll bribe you to sign up. He'll strong-arm you to re-enlist. And if that's not enough, he's got a plan to draft you.

In the three decades since the Vietnam War, the "all-volunteer Army" has become a bedrock principle of the American military. "It's a magnificent force," Vice President Dick Cheney declared during the election campaign last fall, "because those serving are ones who signed up to serve." But with the Army and Marines perilously overextended by the war in Iraq, that volunteer foundation is starting to crack. The "weekend warriors" of the Army Reserve and the National Guard now make up almost half the fighting force on the front lines, and young officers in the Reserve are retiring in droves. The Pentagon, which can barely attract enough recruits to maintain current troop levels, has involuntarily extended the enlistments of as many as 100,000 soldiers. Desperate for troops, the Army has lowered its standards to let in twenty-five percent more high school dropouts, and the Marines are now offering as much as $30,000 to anyone who re-enlists. To understand the scope of the crisis, consider this: The United States is pouring nearly as much money into incentives for new recruits -- almost $300 million -- as it is into international tsunami relief.

"The Army's maxed out here," says retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, who served as Air Force chief of staff under the first President Bush. "The Defense Department and the president seem to be still operating off the rosy scenario that this will be over soon, that this pain is temporary and therefore we'll just grit our teeth, hunker down and get out on the other side of this. That's a bad assumption." The Bush administration has sworn up and down that it will never reinstate a draft. During the campaign last year, the president dismissed the idea as nothing more than "rumors on the Internets" and declared, "We're not going to have a draft -- period." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in an Op-Ed blaming "conspiracy mongers" for "attempting to scare and mislead young Americans," insisted that "the idea of reinstating the draft has never been debated, endorsed, discussed, theorized, pondered or even whispered by anyone in the Bush administration."

That assertion is demonstrably false. According to an internal Selective Service memo made public under the Freedom of Information Act, the agency's acting director met with two of Rumsfeld's undersecretaries in February 2003 precisely to debate, discuss and ponder a return to the draft. The memo duly notes the administration's aversion to a draft but adds, "Defense manpower officials concede there are critical shortages of military personnel with certain special skills, such as medical personnel, linguists, computer network engineers, etc." The potentially prohibitive cost of "attracting and retaining such personnel for military service," the memo adds, has led "some officials to conclude that, while a conventional draft may never be needed, a draft of men and women possessing these critical skills may be warranted in a future crisis." This new draft, it suggests, could be invoked to meet the needs of both the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security.

The memo then proposes, in detail, that the Selective Service be "re-engineered" to cover all Americans -- "men and (for the first time) women" -- ages eighteen to thirty-four. In addition to name, date of birth and Social Security number, young adults would have to provide the agency with details of their specialized skills on an ongoing basis until they passed out of draft jeopardy at age thirty-five. Testifying before Congress two weeks after the meeting, acting director of Selective Service Lewis Brodsky acknowledged that "consultations with senior Defense manpower officials" have spurred the agency to shift its preparations away from a full-scale, Vietnam-style draft of untrained men "to a draft of smaller numbers of critical-skills personnel."

Richard Flahavan, spokesman for Selective Service, tells Rolling Stone that preparing for a skills-based draft is "in fact what we have been doing." For starters, the agency has updated a plan to draft nurses and doctors. But that's not all. "Our thinking was that if we could run a health-care draft in the future," Flahavan says, "then with some very slight tinkering we could change that skill to plumbers or linguists or electrical engineers or whatever the military was short." In other words, if Uncle Sam decides he needs people with your skills, Selective Service has the means to draft you -- and quick.

But experts on military manpower say the focus on drafting personnel with special skills misses the larger point. The Army needs more soldiers, not just more doctors and linguists. "What you've got now is a real shortage of grunts -- guys who can actually carry bayonets," says McPeak. A wholesale draft may be necessary, he adds, "to deal with the situation we've got ourselves into. We've got to have a bigger Army."

Michael O'Hanlon, a military-manpower scholar at the Brookings Institute, believes a return to a full-blown draft will become "unavoidable" if the United States is forced into another war. "Let's say North Korea strikes a deal with Al Qaeda to sell them a nuclear weapon or something," he says. "I frankly don't see how you could fight two wars at the same time with the all-volunteer approach." If a second Korean War should break out, the United States has reportedly committed to deploying a force of nearly 700,000 to defend South Korea -- almost half of America's entire military.

The politics of the draft are radioactive: Polls show that less than twenty percent of Americans favor forced military service. But conscription has some unlikely champions, including veterans and critics of the administration who are opposed to Bush's war in Iraq. Reinstating the draft, they say, would force every level of society to participate in military service, rather than placing a disproportionate burden on minorities and the working class. African-Americans, who make up roughly thirteen percent of the civilian population, account for twenty-two percent of the armed forces. And the Defense Department acknowledges that recruits are drawn "primarily from families in the middle and lower-middle socioeconomic strata."

A societywide draft would also make it more difficult for politicians to commit troops to battle without popular approval. "The folks making the decisions are committing other people's lives to a war effort that they're not making any sacrifices for," says Charles Sheehan-Miles, who fought in the first Gulf War and now serves as director of Veterans for Common Sense. Under the current all-volunteer system, fewer than a dozen members of Congress have children in the military.

Charlie Moskos, a professor of military sociology at Northwestern University, says the volunteer system also limits the political fallout of unpopular wars. "Without a draft, there's really no antiwar movement," Moskos says. Nearly sixty percent of Americans believe the war in Iraq was a mistake, he notes, but they have no immediate self-interest in taking to the streets because "we're willing to pay people to die for us. It doesn't reflect very well on the character of our society."

Even military recruiters agree that the only way to persuade average Americans to make long-term sacrifices in war is for the children of the elite to put their lives on the line. In a recent meeting with military recruiters, Moskos discussed the crisis in enlistment. "I asked them would they prefer to have their advertising budget tripled or have Jenna Bush join the Army," he says. "They unanimously chose the Jenna option."

One of the few politicians willing to openly advocate a return to the draft is Rep. Charles Rangel, a Democrat from New York, who argues that the current system places an immoral burden on America's underprivileged. "It shouldn't be just the poor and the working poor who find their way into harm's way," he says. In the days leading up to the Iraq war, Rangel introduced a bill to reinstate the draft -- with absolutely no deferments. "If the kids and grandkids of the president and the Cabinet and the Pentagon were vulnerable to going to Iraq, we never would have gone -- no question in my mind," he says. "The closer this thing comes home to Americans, the quicker we'll be out of Iraq."

But instead of exploring how to share the burden more fairly, the military is cooking up new ways to take advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Rangel says military recruiters have confided in him that they're targeting inner cities and rural areas with high unemployment. In December, the National Guard nearly doubled its enlistment bonus to $10,000, and the Army is trying to attract urban youth with a marketing campaign called "Taking It to the Streets," which features a pimped-out yellow Hummer and a basketball exhibition replete with free throwback jerseys. President Bush has also signed an executive order allowing legal immigrants to apply for citizenship immediately -- rather than wait five years -- if they volunteer for active duty.

"It's so completely unethical and immoral to induce people that have limited education and limited job ability to have to put themselves in harm's way for ten, twenty or thirty thousand dollars," Rangel says. "Just how broke do you have to be to take advantage of these incentives?" Seducing soldiers with cold cash also unnerves military commanders. "We must consider the point at which we confuse 'volunteer to become an American soldier' with 'mercenary,' " Lt. Gen. James Helmly, the commander of the Army Reserve, wrote in a memo to senior Army leadership in December.

The Reserve, Helmly warns, "is rapidly degenerating into a broken force." The Army National Guard is also in trouble: It missed its recruitment goals of 56,000 by more than 5,000 in fiscal year 2004 and is already 2,000 soldiers short in fiscal 2005. To keep enough boots on the ground, the Pentagon has stopped asking volunteer soldiers to extend their service -- and started demanding it. Using a little-known provision called "stop loss," the military is forcing reservists and guardsmen to remain on active duty indefinitely. "This is an 'all-volunteer Army' with footnotes," says McPeak. "And it's the footnotes that are being held in Iraq against their wishes. If that's not a back-door draft, tell me what is."

David Qualls, who joined the Arkansas National Guard for a year, is one of 40,000 troops in Iraq who have been informed that their enlistment has been extended until December 24th, 2031. "I've served five months past my one-year obligation," says Qualls, the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit challenging the military with breach of contract. "It's time to let me go back to my life. It's a question of fairness, and not only for myself. This is for the thousands of other people that are involuntarily extended in Iraq. Let us go home."

The Army insists that most "stop-lossed" soldiers will be held on the front lines for no longer than eighteen months. But Jules Lobel, an attorney with the Center for Constitutional Rights who is representing eight National Guardsmen in a lawsuit challenging the extensions, says the 2031 date is being used to strong-arm volunteers into re-enlisting. According to Lobel, the military is telling soldiers, "We're giving you a chance to voluntarily re-enlist -- and if you don't do it, we'll screw you. And the first way we'll screw you is to put you in until 2031."

But threatening volunteers, military experts warn, could be the quickest way to ensure a return to the draft. According to O'Hanlon at the Brookings Institute, such "callousness" may make it impossible to recruit new soldiers -- no matter how much money you throw at them. And if bigger sign-up bonuses and more aggressive recruitment tactics don't do the trick, says Helmly of the Army Reserve, it could "force the nation into an argument" about reinstating the draft.

In the end, it may simply come down to a matter of math. In January, Bush told America's soldiers that "much more will be asked of you" in his second term, even as he openly threatened Iran with military action. Another war, critics warn, would push the all-volunteer force to its breaking point. "This damn thing is just an explosion that's about to happen," says Rangel. Bush officials "can say all they want that they don't want the draft, but there's not going to be that many more buttons to push."


(Posted Jan 27, 2005)

jblues
02-07-2005, 06:48 PM
Yes, the veritable news source that is Rolling Stone. What's that Lindsay Lohan up to now?

ASsman
02-07-2005, 06:53 PM
It's not going to happen, but it would be those "more 9/11s" that Prof. was calling for. More dead civilians. People might get a clue.

And it would give me a bigger excuse to leave this craphole.

Echewta
02-07-2005, 07:15 PM
1 to 2 years of required military or civil service. I was game when I was 18 and still believe in it.

checkyourprez
02-07-2005, 08:38 PM
if a persons father is a citizen of a different country, does that make his son a citizen of that country of his fathers birth along with that of his own?

ASsman
02-07-2005, 08:44 PM
No, you have to apply for dual citizenship.

Nice try, Uncle Sam ain't no foo!

checkyourprez
02-07-2005, 08:47 PM
No, you have to apply for dual citizenship.

Nice try, Uncle Sam ain't no foo!



shiiiiiit either way though id still apply for italian citizenship and be out that mess.

ASsman
02-07-2005, 08:56 PM
You have to apply for that too. US won't let you go simply because you asked nicely.

checkyourprez
02-07-2005, 09:33 PM
shiiiiiit either way though id still apply for italian citizenship and be out that mess.

SobaViolence
02-07-2005, 10:32 PM
the private sector is costing the american empire recruits...is this the neo-con snake eating its own tail?

DroppinScience
02-07-2005, 11:03 PM
Yes, the veritable news source that is Rolling Stone. What's that Lindsay Lohan up to now?

She's gonna be in Selective Service. Either that or she'll do the USO show for the drafted troops. :cool:

Why don't you read the article? They've got some very viable sources cited.

Schmeltz
02-08-2005, 12:26 AM
With the army desperate for recruits, should college students be packing their bags for Canada?


No, because we don't want them here.

DroppinScience
02-08-2005, 12:32 AM
No, because we don't want them here.

Schmeltz

Hatin' American liberal kids since 2004 :cool:

Schmeltz
02-08-2005, 12:53 AM
Well come on, man. Do you want us to be the Democratic Party Junior? All getting antsy about the gay marriage and the legal herb, privatizing our health care and boosting up the military quasi-Republican style? I don't think so. Those "liberal" kids can fix their own problems instead of running away from them.

DroppinScience
02-08-2005, 01:03 AM
Well come on, man. Do you want us to be the Democratic Party Junior? All getting antsy about the gay marriage and the legal herb, privatizing our health care and boosting up the military quasi-Republican style? I don't think so. Those "liberal" kids can fix their own problems instead of running away from them.

I do agree with you. I'd rather they stay and fight and make their country better. Not only will America be better off for it, but the world at large will be better off too.

But honestly, very few left-leaning Americans (this is among the small percentage who actually are serious when they say they want to go to Canada) would be interested in turning Canada into the centrist Democratic establishment. They'd most likely be the Kucinich types and they'd be voting NDP if they get Canadian citizenship.

So I seriously don't see your beef with any Americans who'd actually emigrate here.

My Film Studies professor is from Chicago and he's the hugest leftie on any side of the border. He's a self-described American Marxist/Maoist no less.
:eek:

P.S. - It's actually kinda sad when you tout Canada's proudest accomplishments as gay marriage and decriminalized marijuana. I'd like to think we've done much more than that...

Ace42
02-08-2005, 01:15 AM
The lightbulb for starters

Schmeltz
02-08-2005, 01:37 AM
I didn't say those things were Canada's "greatest accomplishments," you're putting words in my mouth. But they are elements of our progressive society that I think we could expect to see disappear if we were inundated with draft-dodging Americans. Honestly, how many NDP voters do you think there are in the nation that elected George W. Bush to a second term? In my experience, "left-leaning" Americans would be considered centrist at most up here. Look at Qdrop - he describes himself as "left-leaning," but if all the Qdrops in America came to Canada Atlas Shrugged would be mandatory high school reading and we'd be going to war with the Danes over the shrimp fishery.

I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid. But, after all, the Democrats acquiesced in the destruction of Iraq for no reason. We've already seen how progressive these people are.

DroppinScience
02-08-2005, 02:12 AM
I didn't say those things were Canada's "greatest accomplishments," you're putting words in my mouth. But they are elements of our progressive society that I think we could expect to see disappear if we were inundated with draft-dodging Americans. Honestly, how many NDP voters do you think there are in the nation that elected George W. Bush to a second term? In my experience, "left-leaning" Americans would be considered centrist at most up here. Look at Qdrop - he describes himself as "left-leaning," but if all the Qdrops in America came to Canada Atlas Shrugged would be mandatory high school reading and we'd be going to war with the Danes over the shrimp fishery.

I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid. But, after all, the Democrats acquiesced in the destruction of Iraq for no reason. We've already seen how progressive these people are.

Keep in mind, the Qdrops of America are going to stay in America (Qdrop has gone on record to say that he's not a liberal anyways).

Anyone who would actually make the trek up here are the Kucinich Democrats or Greens or other third party people. Please don't mistake "liberals" or "the left" as synonymous with Democrats.

BOTTOM LINE: your vision of Americans fleeing their country en masse and clamouring for entry to Canada is absurd at best. So far we've only got one American who has come up and he's seeking refugee status (that US soldier who doesn't want to go to Iraq because he doesn't want to kill people).

If you're thinking of a scene on par with East Germans running over to West Germany... that's a grand illusion, mon ami.

Funkaloyd
02-08-2005, 02:14 AM
It's actually kinda sad when you tout Canada's proudest accomplishments as gay marriage and decriminalized marijuana.

Both are landmark victories for liberty―some of the greatest the West has seen in decades. Don't downplay them.

Tzar
02-08-2005, 05:58 AM
everyone come to perth. right now.

Qdrop
02-08-2005, 08:38 AM
In my experience, "left-leaning" Americans would be considered centrist at most up here. Look at Qdrop - he describes himself as "left-leaning," but if all the Qdrops in America came to Canada Atlas Shrugged would be mandatory high school reading and we'd be going to war with the Danes over the shrimp fishery.



man, you really got a fuckin beef with me, huh?






it wouldn't kill you to read a little Ayn Rand.....not that i agree with her philosophies entirely....

Qdrop
02-08-2005, 08:38 AM
Keep in mind, the Qdrops of America are going to stay in America (Qdrop has gone on record to say that he's not a liberal anyways).


thanks again, mate.

DroppinScience
02-08-2005, 09:53 AM
Both are landmark victories for liberty―some of the greatest the West has seen in decades. Don't downplay them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they're happening. But I can't say I'm behind them with the same passion as like the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Roe v. Wade, 1st Ammendment, New Deal, peacekeeping and other types of stuff...

Those things make me way more giddy than seeing two dudes kiss. :p

ASsman
02-08-2005, 09:58 AM
Heh, yah when the Draft comes, stay and fight.... from a jail cell.

jegtar
02-08-2005, 10:11 AM
Both are landmark victories for liberty―some of the greatest the West has seen in decades. Don't downplay them.

Smoking weed and butt sex?

Whois
02-08-2005, 10:17 AM
No, because we don't want them here.

Yup, don't want to lower the average IQ...good choice! (y)

Whois
02-08-2005, 10:18 AM
The government better get my jail cell ready, 'cause I'm not bloodying my hands over this unjustified and pointless war. This is after I get dragged back from <insert country here>.

When they issue you an M-4/M-16, just shoot as many officers as you can.

Schmeltz
02-08-2005, 11:31 AM
Anyone who would actually make the trek up here are the Kucinich Democrats or Greens or other third party people.


Keep in mind that we're conversing in the context of your Rolling Stone article; if there actually was a draft we could expect to see a mini-migration from anybody who didn't feel like fighting the next war, as with Vietnam. Of course, Paul Martin has closed the borders to those prospective draft-dodgers, God bless him.

BOTTOM LINE: Yankee go home!

I don't have a beef with you, Q, I just like to bug you.

Qdrop
02-08-2005, 12:02 PM
I don't have a beef with you, Q, I just like to bug you.

well, if your mission was to make me cry.........



it worked....(sniff)

SobaViolence
02-08-2005, 12:35 PM
if there was a draft, i'd fight for the borders to open. of course, i strongly agree with Trudeau(just this once).