Man hit by cop stun gun dies

[ASsman]

Not that it IS related, haven't concluded on that yet (last I heard). But there is another related case mentioned.

---------------

Man hit by cop stun gun dies
Chief delays new Tasers for police

By Tom Rybarczyk and David Heinzmann, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune national correspondent Michael Martinez, staff reporter Rex W. Huppke and Tribune wire services contributed to this report
Published February 11, 2005

A 54-year-old man who police say screamed at them and attempted to bite an officer's arm in a standoff on the 26th floor of a Lakeview apartment building died Thursday after police used a Taser stun gun to subdue him.

The medical examiner's office had not reported a cause of death late Thursday, and police would not provide the man's name pending notification of his family.

Earlier this week, a 14-year-old ward of the state went into cardiac arrest after a Chicago police sergeant shot him with a stun gun.

The boy was taken off a ventilator Wednesday and is recovering.

After Thursday's incident, Police Supt. Philip Cline called for a temporary halt to plans to distribute more Tasers. He said, however, he would not discontinue use of the 200 Tasers the department has now.

Cline said he wanted to see the outcome of these investigations before buying additional stun guns.

"These two incidents have happened very close to each other and prompted me to ask questions" Cline said.

"We are asking everyone to avoid drawing any immediate conclusions or snap judgments."

Even with the cause of the man's death Thursday unknown, these two incidents thrust the Chicago Police Department into the national debate over the use of Taser stun guns, manufactured by Taser International Inc. in Scottsdale, Ariz., and used by some 6,000 police agencies.

From coast to coast, there have been incidents in which people have died after being shocked by a stun gun, but medical examiners have rarely cited the Taser as a cause of death.

In a November report, Amnesty International said it found 74 Taser-related deaths since 2001 and concluded the devices were "contributing to widespread human rights abuses."

In the latest Chicago Taser case, police said the 54-year-old man Thursday refused to leave the hallway on the 26th floor of an apartment building in the 300 block of West Wellington Avenue. He had apparently been invited up to the apartment of two men who were later being questioned by police but had not been charged.

The 54-year-old man had served four years in an Illinois prison on drug charges, police said.

Belmont Area Police Cmdr. Michael Chasen said the man began threatening officers' lives, saying, "If you come near me, I will give you HIV."

An officer handcuffed one of the man's wrists, but the man then started swinging the handcuffs at the officers, Chasen said.

After three warnings, a sergeant fired a Taser at the man. Paramedics took the man to the ground floor, at which time they realized he was under distress, Chasen said.

The man was taken to Advocate Illinois Masonic Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead at 1:58 p.m.

Taser International's stock fell nearly 4 percent Thursday on the heels of a television report that revealed new details of an Air Force study that found multiple shocks from a Taser stun gun led to heart damage in pigs.

Officials from Taser International could not be reached for comment late Thursday.

The company has always maintained its stun guns are safe and a life-saving alternative to the use of handguns.

A number of police agencies across the nation have reported decreases in firearm use when officers have access to Tasers.

However, as in the case Monday with the 14-year-old in Chicago, questions have been raised in the past about the appropriateness of using Tasers on certain people.

Last year in Miami, a 6-year-old boy was shocked in a school office.

Also last year, a 75-year-old woman in Rock Hill, S.C., was shot with a stun gun in a nursing home.

In both cases, they had created disturbances that required police action. Neither the child nor the elderly woman died. But police departments in each case were later criticized and took either disciplinary action or refined their procedures.

After the incident Monday at the residential group home run by Uhlich Children's Advantage Network, Cook County Public Guardian Robert Harris criticized the use of a stun gun and said he believed the boy was no longer violent and was sitting on a couch when police arrived. The American Civil Liberties Union also said the use of force seemed unjustified.

Police said the boy had been breaking windows in the home and had beaten three workers before lunging at an officer who responded to the disturbance.

The boy's guardian Thursday filed a lawsuit in Cook County Circuit Court against the city and an unnamed police officer. The police maintain the decision to use the stun gun was appropriate.

The two-count lawsuit alleges misconduct and negligence, charging the use of a stun gun on a minor was "improper and excessive force." The lawsuit also alleges that the use of the stun gun on a minor goes against the manufacturer's instructions and the Police Department's own regulations.

Chicago police have been using Tasers on a trial basis since April.

When a stun gun's trigger is pulled, two wires tipped with electrified barbs are shot a distance of more than 20 feet. Once the barbs hit their target, a strong electrical charge--up to 50,000 volts--courses through the wires, shocking the person and immobilizing them.

Police spokesman Patrick Camden said police have used stun guns 156 times since they began using the devices, resulting in 20 injuries, most "minor, puncture wounds or abrasions from" the barbs.



Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0502110354feb11,1,3826077.story?coll=chi-newslocal-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

------------------------
Christ, really? See what happens when you give a cop a weapon, then tell him it's non-lethal. I say they go back to the clubbing of colored folk, but first turning off THE GODDAMN CAMERAS. Dumbass crackers.

[Qdrop]

obvioulsy the 6 year old and the nursing home person are red herrings....
the article just HAD to throw those in thier for sensationalism....
fuckin media.

these things, are 1,000 times safer then guns.....
and far far far far less lethal....
on Airamerica they were trying to spin it that these things have killed and are cruel, ect.
bullshit....
here comes "conservative qdrop" again, but i have little compassion for criminals....
you resist arrest, you get shocked.
simple.

if liberals want to spin it so it seems like the evil, blood thirsty cops are just "looking" for a reason to toast some white trash or "coons" and laugh the whole time.... go for it. just further marginalize yourself in your quest to save the "victim" criminal and demonize those "evil" law enforcers. cause we know they are ALL evil at heart.

typical leftist sentiment....they scream and yell that officers use exessive force and that they shoot when they don't have to and "won't somebody think of the poor poor criminal!!?!?!" and all that.
so officers use a new weapon that IS virtually non-lethal...and of course...here comes the liberals again.."they're TASING these poor poor criminals (suspects, ect)....it's cruel and inhumane!!!....won't somebody think of the poor , poor criminals!!"

if we armed officers with Feather tickler guns, the liberal would still bitch.."they're tickling them....TO DEATH!! the inhumane horror!!"

"breaking news, we have a report of a suspect being tickled to death in tucson today....authorities are calling it a tragedy of epic proportions.
area committees are calling for a nation wide ban on all feather tickler guns....We are joined by Jesse Jackson of the Rainbow Coalition who will comment on this tragedy, Jesse?"

"it's a tragic day, jim....a tragic day for america....when a black man is killed from being tickled to death..."

"Jesse, he was white....."

"but he was 'black in heart", jim.....a tragedy..."

[Ace42]

here comes "conservative qdrop" again, but i have little compassion for criminals....
you resist arrest, you get shocked.
simple.

"Innocent until proven guilty" - that's a tenet of the law of YOUR country. However, admittedly this probably has changed in your country subsequent to the patriot act.

And heaven forbid that an innocent person might be resisting arrest. Of course, it is only guilty people who'd feel reluctant to be man-handled off to jail by the pigs.

[racer5.0stang]

It is obvious that the police officer felt threatened by the 6 yr. old.

But, a person still has better odds of survival from a Tazer than from a .357 bullet. Of course the cop could shoot the person in the arm or leg, but most are trained to aim at the mid section of the body.

I would just assume to lay on the ground, face down with my hands behind my back than take a Tazer or bullet.

[Ace42]

I would just assume to lay on the ground, face down with my hands behind my back than take a Tazer or bullet.

So, you'd rather have a smelly cop stick his cock in your hairy little arsehole than try and escape? Because that's what cops are to a lot of people - corrupt and not to be trusted. This distrust exists for a reason, and that reason isn't "lying rappers."

Most of the pro-gun yanks on this board argue that their guns are to protect them from state-corruptions.

What good's your gun to you when you are face down, hands behind your back?

[racer5.0stang]

So, you'd rather have a smelly cop stick his cock in your hairy little arsehole than try and escape? Because that's what cops are to a lot of people - corrupt and not to be trusted. This distrust exists for a reason, and that reason isn't "lying rappers."

Most of the pro-gun yanks on this board argue that their guns are to protect them from state-corruptions.

What good's your gun to you when you are face down, hands behind your back?


See now you have opened up a new can of worms. Get out of the gutter.

It would be pretty dumb to brandish a weapon to a cop let alone point it at him/her.

I wouldn't point a gun at some one unless I intended on shooting them. More people should consider that before they "play" with a gun.

[Ace42]

When they kick at your front door
How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?

When the law break in
How you gonna go?
Shot down on the pavement
Or waiting on death row.

- The Clash.

[Qdrop]

Ace, you are such an anarchist.

i have as much disdain for police officers and anyone....
but even if i am falsley arrested, i will cooperate....and i will be cleared of charges if i am innocent.
the guilty run....the innocent cooperate.

I know, i know....you'll retort with links upon links of people who have been falsely convicted, abused, ect...patriot act, blah blah....

this is not the norm, Ace.
as much as YOU WANT it to be... to fit your american hating sentiment.... americans are NOT regularly falsley arrested, beaten, and imprisoned for life here.
you want that to be true sooo bad.....so fucking bad.
just to further justify you hatred for this country.


for someone who claims such disdain for propaganda and hype, you certainly are one to swallow it down if it appeases your existing sentiments.

i guess it's all in the perception.

propaganda to one, is facts to another....and vice-versa.

have you ever been to the US, ace?

[Ace42]

Ace, you are such an anarchist.

Hah, I wish.

the guilty run....the innocent cooperate.

Not in the eyes of the law. Jurors in the UK are expressly told that not wanting to co-operate with the police CANNOT be used as evidence of guilt. People can be afraid of the police for numerous reasons, none of which need be that they are criminals.

this is not the norm, Ace.

I never said it was. However, it is not so uncommon as to be a spurious fear. I have conversed with several black individuals in some of the southern states who have said that they habitually avoid the police (even to the point of refusing to report crimes) because of frequent prejudice. Admittedly they were quite old, so this may be a legacy of an older age. But thirty years ago ain't so long in the sceme of things.

have you ever been to the US, ace?

Certainly not. Most of it is a shithole, and the rest of it is full of nutjobs. It's bad enough that we are bombarded with your media constantly. Or is the US churning out self-loathing propoganda? God I hope so, as that is the only cure for the flag-waving zealotry that makes up the majority of your broadcasting.

[Qdrop]

Hah, I wish.
you are.



Not in the eyes of the law. Jurors in the UK are expressly told that not wanting to co-operate with the police CANNOT be used as evidence of guilt. People can be afraid of the police for numerous reasons, none of which need be that they are criminals.

missed the point.

guilty people run.
the innocent cooperate.

i've had plenty of run-ins in my short life.

i've run and i've cooperated.

i ran because i was guilty and did not want to get caught.

i've cooperated because i was innocent....or i knew that cooperating when i WAS guilty would make the whole process alot easier.


I never said it was. However, it is not so uncommon as to be a spurious fear. I have conversed with several black individuals in some of the southern states who have said that they habitually avoid the police (even to the point of refusing to report crimes) because of frequent prejudice. Admittedly they were quite old, so this may be a legacy of an older age. But thirty years ago ain't so long in the sceme of things.

that IS a long time ago, especially in the area of civil rights.

you really are speaking out of your ass, ace.




Certainly not. Most of it is a shithole, and the rest of it is full of nutjobs. It's bad enough that we are bombarded with your media constantly. Or is the US churning out self-loathing propoganda? God I hope so, as that is the only cure for the flag-waving zealotry that makes up the majority of your broadcasting.

and this is why i say you are speaking out of your ass.

you have no idea what this countries daily social life is like.
none.
just cause you watch US television doesn't make you an expert...or even one to comment.
i used to watch monty python alot....tell me...hehehe....are all you brits so darn funny...hhhah....har de har har.

i personally have no idea what european social life is like.
none.
never been.

i have no idea what kind of american sentiment most europeans hold....i've gotten so many conflictng reports from so many peope who claim they do, though.
again....it's all in the perception.

[Whois]

What good's your gun to you when you are face down, hands behind your back?

We Americans are most comfortable when presenting ourselves for a reaming...

[Ace42]

i've cooperated because i was innocent....or i knew that cooperating when i WAS guilty would make the whole process alot easier.

So "Guilty people run... And sometimes they don't..."

Want to rephrase your idiom some more?

"Innocent people never run. Except when they do."

that IS a long time ago, especially in the area of civil rights.
you really are speaking out of your ass, ace.

So long that all policemen around at that time would have retired? Precisely what year was it that police descrimination went from being rife to being insignificant?

you have no idea what this countries daily social life is like.
none.
just cause you watch US television doesn't make you an expert...or even one to comment.
i used to watch monty python alot....tell me...hehehe....are all you brits so darn funny...hhhah....har de har har.

Of course, because when I said "we get your media" I didn't mean we get your news broadcasts, fly on the wall (and other) documentaries, social commentators, periodicals, blogs, talking to numerous Americans regularly from all over your country, etc.

What I meant was that I was basing American culture solely on Friends. Silly me.

i personally have no idea what european social life is like.
none.

That's because the US is an insular self-absorbed nation. While the UK is often called xenophobic (mainly due to its poor liguistic education efforts) foreign cultures are easily available to all citizens. It is a different scale altogether from the US. Channel 4 often shows foreign cinema, as does BBC4. Rapido TV often does transeuropean shows, such as the (don't laugh) rather insane "Eurotrash" - while not a great example, it does highlight cultural phenomenon across the continent. Having been to the continent on several occasions, I can personally attest to the validity and accuracy of the (serious) portrayl of foreign cultures.

Again, unless the US media has a bi-polar disorder which swings between gratuitous self-masturbation and masochistic self-loathing (in which the latter is much more in accordance with the European media's portrayl) then calling it an anti-American sentiment based on propoganda is quite wrong.

i have no idea what kind of american sentiment most europeans hold....i've gotten so many conflictng reports from so many peope who claim they do, though.
again....it's all in the perception.

Unless, of course, you accept that one side of the conflict is correct, and the other is not. In which case all that is in the perception is the difference between accuracy and delusion.

Remember, I am geographically closer to some parts of the US than they are to each other. I'd fail to see how some insular hick who has lived in nowheresville, smalltown mid-America for their whole life without even learning to read can be more authoritative about the state of the US than me, irrespective of how long they've lived on the prarie.

[Ace42]

We Americans are most comfortable when presenting ourselves for a reaming...

That certainly explains Michael Jackson.

[phinkasaurus]

i have plenty of black friends who are harrassed and pulled over and generally molested(not sexually, but annoying), all because they are guilty of being black.
and people routinely run from police, not becasue they are guilty of a crime right then and there, but because they do not like the police, or have had bad experiences with the police in thier past, or from general fear of the guy with the gun.

i don't like cops, and I always get very anxious when getting harrased by them. Luckliy, i am white and cops don't harass me as much here in Chicago. Would I run? No, your as likely to get shot as arrested if you run.

$0.02

and Qdrop, you've never been to Europe? I'll keep that in mind...

[Qdrop]

So "Guilty people run... And sometimes they don't..."

Want to rephrase your idiom some more?

"Innocent people never run. Except when they do."

oh stop with the semantics.

here you go ace:
the "stupid" guilty run.
the "smart" guilty cooperate, as this will make the whole process alot easier with less charges tacked on.

the "stupid" innocent run. why? fuck if i know...unless they get away, running WILL ALWAYS BE WORSE. it opens the floodgates to physical contact, as you are resisting arrest.
if your fear is of being manhandled or abused....running give the cops all the leeway they need to do so.
you are almost guarunteeing your own fear.

you can even be charged with "running from the police" and a host of other charges even if you were completely innocent.


the "smart" innocent cooperate, as they will likely be freed of charges when the investigation is complete.



So long that all policemen around at that time would have retired? Precisely what year was it that police descrimination went from being rife to being insignificant?


um....1978, may 12......at 9:26 pm.

civil rights and police protection have come light years from 1969.....



Of course, because when I said "we get your media" I didn't mean we get your news broadcasts, fly on the wall (and other) documentaries, social commentators, periodicals, blogs, talking to numerous Americans regularly from all over your country, etc.

What I meant was that I was basing American culture solely on Friends. Silly me.

har de har har.

yes, as those other things qualify you to make your judgements...yes i see.

that's not worth arguing with you....
you felt stupid even as you typed that...



That's because the US is an insular self-absorbed nation. While the UK is often called xenophobic (mainly due to its poor liguistic education efforts) foreign cultures are easily available to all citizens. It is a different scale altogether from the US. Channel 4 often shows foreign cinema, as does BBC4. Rapido TV often does transeuropean shows, such as the (don't laugh) rather insane "Eurotrash" - while not a great example, it does highlight cultural phenomenon across the continent.

yes...well we have telimundo, univision, BBC, asian network, and about 50 other foreign channels on american cable.
i guess that makes me an expert on foriegn societies.

wow, those japanese people sure are hard workers! and they love thier wacky gameshows!! hehehee!


Again, unless the US media has a bi-polar disorder which swings between gratuitous self-masturbation and masochistic self-loathing (in which the latter is much more in accordance with the European media's portrayl) then calling it an anti-American sentiment based on propoganda is quite wrong.

such bullshit.
fine. believe whateve sentiment you want.
talk about gratuitous self-masterbation....that's pretty much how you pick what to believe and what not to....if it fits your preconcieved notions, it MUST be true.



Unless, of course, you accept that one side of the conflict is correct, and the other is not. In which case all that is in the perception is the difference between accuracy and delusion.

neither is completely correct.
someday you may understand this.

[Qdrop]

and Qdrop, you've never been to Europe? I'll keep that in mind...

send me a plain ticket and hotel fair.

i'd love to go visit Ace....

[phinkasaurus]

and hotel fair.


hotel? you yuppie...

;)

[Ace42]

unless they get away

Which never happens.

um....1978, may 12......at 9:26 pm.

civil rights and police protection have come light years from 1969...

Not according to Phinasaurus. Or does he not know what society is like in the US too?

yes...well we have telmundo, univision, BBC, asian network, and about 50 other foreign channels on american cable.
i guess that makes me an expert on foriegn societies.

How much of them do you watch? What sort of educational content do they provide?

if it fits your preconcieved notions, it MUST be true.

If it is at odds with observable fact, then it certainly is not.

neither is completely correct.
someday you may understand this.

Ah, of course. Whenever there is conflict, that must mean that there is no "truth."

So when someone says "1+1=3" then they are not completely incorrect, due to there being two sides to the conflict?

[ASsman]

In a November report, Amnesty International said it found 74 Taser-related deaths since 2001 and concluded the devices were "contributing to widespread human rights abuses."

Taser International's stock fell nearly 4 percent Thursday on the heels of a television report that revealed new details of an Air Force study that found multiple shocks from a Taser stun gun led to heart damage in pigs.

In other words these "red herrings" should be read the same warnings as those getting on roller coaster rides.

So do you suffer from any heart problems?
Why no sir.
(ZAPPPPPPP)

And it's not about killing hundreds of people everytime it is used (which obviously isn't happening, asshat), it's about police abusing this new "safer" technology. Christ, 6 year olds? Really? Can't you just hit her with a pillow or something? Little pepper spray maybe?

[yeahwho]

When I use my stun gun usually a pillow is nearby....for back up, way up.

[Qdrop]

Not according to Phinasaurus. Or does he not know what society is like in the US too?


he's a self-confessed bleeding heart liberal.
one of the top mantra's for such a beleif system is criminal rights...and an overly senstive response to police activity and racial profiling, apparent police brutality, ect.
he filters, percieves, and reprots accordingly.



How much of them do you watch? What sort of educational content do they provide?

again...point missed.
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.

to say that watching telemundo or univision 24/7 could make me a competant source on spanish, mexican, or latin american life is fuckin ludicris.

if i watched BBC 24/7, would you trust me to have a strong, relevant understanding of british society?
seriously....really?

i must say....this line of argument is really unlike you.
this stance in general is unlike you.
so ridiculously weak and full of holes....

i think you're just arguing to argue.


If it is at odds with observable fact, then it certainly is not.



Ah, of course. Whenever there is conflict, that must mean that there is no "truth."

So when someone says "1+1=3" then they are not completely incorrect, due to there being two sides to the conflict?

sigh.
yeah...cause social studies can be simplified to such basic perceptions and truths like "1+1".....




you're bored huh?
why don't you play some video games rather than try and defend arguments you yourself don't really have much stock in.
this isn't like you.

[Echewta]

I would like to tazer all of you.

[ASsman]

It's TASER, fucking asshole. Better co-operate.

[phinkasaurus]

he's a self-confessed bleeding heart liberal.

i never said that.
I am more of a pro revolution communist, really.

besides my black friends that get harrassed are neither liberal nor communist, but really kind of not in the realm of politics. probably more "democrat" than republican" if they had to choose. but I know getting pulled out of your car and thrown on a hood due to "D.W.B" (driving while black) needs one to really percieve some horrible prejudices about the police force that is not there.

hey, last i checked the bulk of prison population is black and latino. But they are not the bulk of the u.s. population. why is that? oh right, the poor people get thrown in jail, that's why. so why are poor peole predominatly black and latino? oh right, because cival rights has come along way.

they can drink at whatever fountain they want now.
but don't let them try to have equal chance at a good future...

[Whois]

That certainly explains Michael Jackson.

Yup... (y)

[Whois]

I would like to tazer all of you.

All of us, or ALL OF US?

:D (y)

"We are the world..."

[Ace42]

he's a self-confessed bleeding heart liberal.
one of the top mantra's for such a beleif system is criminal rights...and an overly senstive response to police activity and racial profiling, apparent police brutality, ect.
the filters, percieves, and reprots accordingly.

So you are accusing him of lying when he says he has aquaintances which fear police harrasment?

if i watched BBC 24/7, would you trust me to have a strong, relevant understanding of british society?
seriously....really?

Depends on the program. Some of the "fly-on-the-wall" documentaries, by their very nature, cannot help but present day to day life. I'd say that the BBC, on the whole, does a good job of show-casing English culture and society. It is obliged to present "minority" programming (although that definition is rather vague, as a lot of 'minority' programs are pretty mainstream, for example Goodness Gracious Me) as well as a variety of other less popular (but essential) services. It also has a charteral obligation to impartiality.

I'd say someone would have to be particularly slow or unimaginative to be unable to get a grasp of English society by means other than living here. I can discuss English culture and society with someone, and they could quite conceivably have a far greater insight into the country than someone who came here for a holiday, went to see the tour of London, and stayed in a hotel eating McDonalds for a couple of weeks.

Perhaps Ms Peachy can shed some light on this. Living here, she can better compare the portrayl of other nations in their respective media.

yeah...cause social studies can be simplified such basic perceptions and truths such as 1+1.

"The French all stink" is a social perception. Think that can't be simplied to such a basic perception as 1+1?

rather than try and defend arguments you yourself don't really have much stock in.

My personal stance on it is irrelevant. I am privlidged, eduated, white, and I live in an area with a low crime rate. The police here do not have guns, and are all part of a local community. I have never commited a (significant) crime, and I have never been harrassed by the police, nor witnessed racial descrimination first hand. Even if the police did stop me, it would be informally, asking questions. It would not be of the "STOP! GET ON THE GROUND! FACE ON THE DIRT!" - the police here do not fear getting shot, and as such aren't jumpy and trigger-happy.

Most of these factors are more related to the fact that I do not live in America (home of segregation and 'black wind-chimes') - a country with a legacy of racial tyranny which is (as I pointed out) within living memory.

If I were in the place of a black kid in a ghetto, accosted for no reason by a loud white overtly hostile policeman, demanding I make myself vulnerable at gun point, I might well hit my heals and run like Forest Gump. Especially knowing the inferiority of the US criminal justice system. Or let me guess, because I have not been tried by it, my knowledge of US laws (which is admittedly not comprehensive) is irrelevant?

this isn't like you.

I was just pointing out that (at least under UK law) not cooperating with the police does not necessarily convey guilt. Just as, under US law, the jury are not supposed to infer guilt from taking the fifth.

[D_Raay]

civil rights and police protection have come light years from 1969.....
Hehe, yeah right. It isn't talked about as much more likely, and kept in a much lower profile..
neither is completely correct.
someday you may understand this.
I think you wrote this because YOU didn't fully understand what he said, not the other way around.
one of the top mantra's for such a beleif system is criminal rights...and an overly senstive response to police activity and racial profiling, apparent police brutality, ect.
he filters, percieves, and reprots accordingly.
Oh really. In other words liberals are the ones who choose to confront ANY abuse, especially considering the "innocent until proven guilty" guideline, versus someone who just ignores it. Just chalks it up to a bad call here and there by an over-zealous fresh out of high school idiot who is high on the power society deemed fit to imbue upon him?
why don't you play some video games rather than try and defend arguments you yourself don't really have much stock in.
this isn't like you.
You couldn't win the argument so you attack the fact that Ace doesn't live here in this country. As if he couldn't make an intelligent observation of the facts laid out before him in black and white. Oh, and lots of people play video games, that makes them somehow unintelligent or reprehensible? Some of the smartest guys I know play video games.

As far the "non-lethal" tasers go, I wouldn't call something branded as such a "red herring". They should call it "well mostly non-lethal" or quit using them altogether. One death by such a weapon voids it's "non-lethal" status.

[Qdrop]

i never said that.

didn't need to....


besides my black friends that get harrassed are neither liberal nor communist, but really kind of not in the realm of politics. probably more "democrat" than republican" if they had to choose. but I know getting pulled out of your car and thrown on a hood due to "D.W.B" (driving while black) needs one to really percieve some horrible prejudices about the police force that is not there.

yeah, every white liberal has a "black friend" who "keeps them informed" of all the current racist cop activity in their area.

such a cliche.

this really speaks to a whole new debate...
i haven't the time today.


hey, last i checked the bulk of prison population is black and latino. But they are not the bulk of the u.s. population. why is that? oh right, the poor people get thrown in jail, that's why.

yes, the desparate turn to crime. crime breeds crime...you learn from your enviroment.
it's not the race, it's the culture and the poverty.


so why are poor peole predominatly black and latino? oh right, because cival rights has come along way.

oh man....
can we have this debate on monday?

[Ace42]

yeah, every white liberal has a "black friend" who "keeps them informed" of all the current racist cop activity in their area.

His name is "Nigel the Negro" - I can give you his phone number if you don't believe me...

such a cliche.

But seriously, are you calling him a liar?

[Qdrop]

I'd say someone would have to be particularly slow or unimaginative to be unable to get a grasp of English society by means other than living here. I can discuss English culture and society with someone, and they could quite conceivably have a far greater insight into the country than someone who came here for a holiday, went to see the tour of London, and stayed in a hotel eating McDonalds for a couple of weeks.

Perhaps Ms Peachy can shed some light on this. Living here, she can better compare the portrayl of other nations in their respective media.


okay...
i'm done with this particular subject.
i do not beleive you can know a culture through television.
there is nothing else we debate here.
it's really subjective.


"The French all stink" is a social perception. Think that can't be simplied to such a basic perception as 1+1?

sigh....
seguay....

you cannot simplify social or cultural studies to simple black and white, yes or no, all or nothing, soundbyte remarks or "facts".
enough of that as well.



My personal stance on it is irrelevant. I am privlidged, eduated, white, and I live in an area with a low crime rate. The police here do not have guns, and are all part of a local community. I have never commited a (significant) crime, and I have never been harrassed by the police, nor witnessed racial descrimination first hand. Even if the police did stop me, it would be informally, asking questions. It would not be of the "STOP! GET ON THE GROUND! FACE ON THE DIRT!" - the police here do not fear getting shot, and as such aren't jumpy and trigger-happy.

and that's how you think it is here, huh?
i guess you watched Cops on fox alot....so you undestand it really good and stuff.
this speaks volumes on your knowledge of our society.


Most of these factors are more related to the fact that I do not live in America (home of segregation and 'black wind-chimes') - a country with a legacy of racial tyranny which is (as I pointed out) within living memory.

yes, britian has no history of slave trade...no...wait.


Or let me guess, because I have not been tried by it, my knowledge of US laws (which is admittedly not comprehensive) is irrelevant?


pretty much.



I was just pointing out that (at least under UK law) not cooperating with the police does not necessarily convey guilt. Just as, under US law, the jury are not supposed to infer guilt from taking the fifth.
fine, agreed.

you guys are giving me a fuckin headache today.

[Qdrop]

Hehe, yeah right. It isn't talked about as much more likely, and kept in a much lower profile..

yes, yes, D....
our society is no differant than it was in 1969.
you win.
we are still a nation of racist honkies.


I think you wrote this because YOU didn't fully understand what he said, not the other way around.
.
yeah, that's it.
i'm stupid as hell.


Oh really. In other words liberals are the ones who choose to confront ANY abuse, especially considering the "innocent until proven guilty" guideline, versus someone who just ignores it. Just chalks it up to a bad call here and there by an over-zealous fresh out of high school idiot who is high on the power society deemed fit to imbue upon him?

of course not always.

but i think you really hit on something with the tail end of you statement.

perception is reality.
everyone percieves differantly.


You couldn't win the argument so you attack the fact that Ace doesn't live here in this country. As if he couldn't make an intelligent observation of the facts laid out before him in black and white.

watching american tv and talking to americans on BBMB does not make you any kind of authority on american culture, particularly it's-
oh fuck it.
if i was arguing Ace's point, you would all be jumping on my back...calling my stance laughable.
it's just "pick on the non-liberal day".


Oh, and lots of people play video games, that makes them somehow unintelligent or reprehensible? Some of the smartest guys I know play video games.


that's great, D.
really.

i was not equating video games to stupidity.
i was stating that if he was bored, he should go play them instead of pick arguments on subjects he himself doesn't really agree much with.

the bulk of this debate is just an "debating excersise" for him.


As far the "non-lethal" tasers go, I wouldn't call something branded as such a "red herring". They should call it "well mostly non-lethal" or quit using them altogether. One death by such a weapon voids it's "non-lethal" status.
compare it to guns, D.

jesus, fuck...
give liberals an inch...they want the whole fucking yard.
THEY'RE NOT USING GUNS!! DOESN'T THAT MAKE YOU A LITTLE BIT FUCKIN HAPPIER!?!?!

fuckin hell......

[Qdrop]

His name is "Nigel the Negro" - I can give you his phone number if you don't believe me...

i know him...
he lives in the "projects" downtown...where i go to buy my gangster rap cd's, or my crack....



But seriously, are you calling him a liar?

no, phink is not a liar....and i respect him greatly.

perception is reality.

[ASsman]

yes, yes, D....
our society is no differant than it was in 1969.
you win.
we are still a nation of racist honkies.

Im glad you have come to your senses.

[Qdrop]

Im glad you have come to your senses.

i knew YOU'D love that one...
;)

[ASsman]

Racism in denial, is still racism.

[D_Raay]

I live in a suburban community some 50 miles south of Washington DC.. In the last 2 years there has been a total of 3 people shot by the police right here in my quiet little community. One was a girl who was drunk and attempted to drive away from police almost hitting one of them. What ensued was a hail of gunfire that killed the girl. That particular incident happened not 100 yards from my house where my two young daughters were sleeping. It startled me right out of my New Yorker article. This girl was a Mary Washington University student who had had way too much to drink at a local pub and was attempting to drive back to the university which is less than a mile from this pub. The local police, for want of anything better to do in most cases, frequently hang around outside this pub which caters to college students.

My point is that a society of fear breeds a legion of trigger happy policeman who have an "us against them" attitude. Our protectors indeed. More like our own personal antagonizers. Yeah, I suppose they potentially protected someone from this hapless drunken college girl who may or may not have hit someone on her road home, but their methods are always questionable.
I personally was stopped on I-95 at 9:00pm a couple of weeks ago. and the troopers approached my car with their guns drawn and at their side, in a pitiful attempt to conceal their weapons. I am middle-aged, white and I drive a Prius. I neither listen to rap music (except the Beastie Boys), nor adorn my cars with various cannibus symbols (although i do enjoy a snifter of port at Christmas). So, the need to draw their guns on me was curious indeed.

This is what we are left with. Policeman who can't even approach a citizen at night who has a tail light out without feeling it is necessary to have his gun unholstered and at his side...

[ASsman]

Im scurred of state troopers, and surburban cops. City cops are just assholes, they aren't shitting their pants over a traffic stop.

[D_Raay]

THEY'RE NOT USING GUNS!! DOESN'T THAT MAKE YOU A LITTLE BIT FUCKIN HAPPIER!?!?!
Not at all because they are pretending that these Tasers are non lethal.

[ASsman]

Froget if they consider the Taser less-lethal.

Last I checked only pepper spray/ pepper balls were non-lethal. All others were considered less-lethal, plastic bullets etc.

[Qdrop]

Not at all because they are pretending that these Tasers are non lethal.

please tell me,
WHAT DO YOU WANT?

WHAT DO LIBERALS WANT IN THIS SITUATION?

[Qdrop]

Froget if they consider the Taser less-lethal.

Last I checked only pepper spray/ pepper balls were non-lethal. All others were considered less-lethal, plastic bullets etc.

worth looking into.

eitherway....they ARE a better alternative to guns when in close proximity and the suspect is not armed with a gun.

[Qdrop]

I live in a suburban community some 50 miles south of Washington DC.. In the last 2 years there has been a total of 3 people shot by the police right here in my quiet little community. One was a girl who was drunk and attempted to drive away from police almost hitting one of them. What ensued was a hail of gunfire that killed the girl. That particular incident happened not 100 yards from my house where my two young daughters were sleeping. It startled me right out of my New Yorker article. This girl was a Mary Washington University student who had had way too much to drink at a local pub and was attempting to drive back to the university which is less than a mile from this pub. The local police, for want of anything better to do in most cases, frequently hang around outside this pub which caters to college students.

My point is that a society of fear breeds a legion of trigger happy policeman who have an "us against them" attitude. Our protectors indeed. More like our own personal antagonizers. Yeah, I suppose they potentially protected someone from this hapless drunken college girl who may or may not have hit someone on her road home, but their methods are always questionable.
I personally was stopped on I-95 at 9:00pm a couple of weeks ago. and the troopers approached my car with their guns drawn and at their side, in a pitiful attempt to conceal their weapons. I am middle-aged, white and I drive a Prius. I neither listen to rap music (except the Beastie Boys), nor adorn my cars with various cannibus symbols (although i do enjoy a snifter of port at Christmas). So, the need to draw their guns on me was curious indeed.

This is what we are left with. Policeman who can't even approach a citizen at night who has a tail light out without feeling it is necessary to have his gun unholstered and at his side...

you know what would really BLOW YOUR FUCKING WIG?
if you did a ride-along with one of your DC officers.

you could EASILY organize that.....

i think you would come on this board the following week with at least a slightly differant perspective.

[ASsman]

eitherway....they ARE a better alternative to guns when in close proximity and the suspect is not armed with a gun.
Are you saying that unarmed suspects would be shot at? How is that an alternative to guns?


Pig#1: Yah we got these new lazers er something.
Pig#2: Great, now I don't have to shoot 6 and 70 year olds, that are unarmed and resisting arrest.

[Qdrop]

Are you saying that unarmed suspects would be shot at? How is that an alternative to guns?

yes police are permitted to use tasers on unarmed suspects who resist arrest.
alot of it really depends on the AMPERAGE that the guns use.
police issue are usually quite low.

remember.....tasers are for sale to general security industry.
they have some on the market with INSANE amperage levels...
enough to stop the heart.
that factors in heavily to your "taser deaths since 2002"

don't you watch "Cops"?
half of their episodes are dedicated to tasers now


Pig#1: Yah we got these new lazers er something.
Pig#2: Great, now I don't have to shoot 6 and 70 year olds, that are unarmed and resisting arrest.

yeah...cause those are the usual suspects....

we're going in circles here.....

[D_Raay]

you know what would really BLOW YOUR FUCKING WIG?
if you did a ride-along with one of your DC officers.

you could EASILY organize that.....

i think you would come on this board the following week with at least a slightly differant perspective.
HAHAHHAHAH. Ah forgive me but that was downright hilarious. My father being a cop of 30 years experience....

[phinkasaurus]

yeah, every white liberal has a "black friend" who "keeps them informed" of all the current racist cop activity in their area.
such a cliche.

ok, man.
i am sorry you feel i am a cliche.
I appreciate your remark about how you "respect me very much", but it's true. I do have several black friends. And I have even more back home in south lousisiana before I moved to an even more segregated city up north.
i think whats more alarming is prhaps you have no black friends. I don't mean that jovial black fellow you work with, but at actual friend. Someone you care about and who cares about you. Because if you did, you would not be spouting this "rasism is som uch less today" and "we've come so far since 1969" bullshit. I routinely hear racist remarks and see racist police activity. I look around my city and I see segregation and subjagation, based soley on race and poverty level. please, look around man, see some shit. I am sure you could find a black co-worker you could ask to tell you about some of their exoeriences in our less prejudiced society.
the civil rights movement has actually been losing ground lately. not just for blacks, but all minorities.

don't call me a cliche, you don't know who the fuck I am.

[ASsman]

yes police are permitted to use tasers on unarmed suspects who resist arrest.
No, HOW IS A TASER AND ALTERNATIVE TO A GUN , WHEN IT COMES TO UNARMED INDIVIDUALS.

Christ.

So if you resisted, you would get shot?(if we were living in a taser free world).

[Ace42]

you cannot simplify social or cultural studies to simple black and white, yes or no, all or nothing, soundbyte remarks or "facts".

"Yes I can and you can't stop me, fatty" - Richard Smith to John Eddowes. People often simplify social phenomenon to black or white points, and these black or white points can be substantially right or wrong.

IE "All french stink" is a simplification, and it is incorrect.

QED.

i guess you watched Cops on fox alot....so you undestand it really good and stuff.

Never. I don't watch sensationalist crap. I was talking about documentaries, not facile nonsense.

yes, britian has no history of slave trade...no...wait.

Oh wait, it ended three decades before the emancipation proclamation, and there was not the subsequent segregation which lasted right into the latter part of the previous century and is still prevalent today. Infact, the UK Navy was actively hunting down slavers when the US was still desperately trying to ship more into the plantations. And the UK never had a founding declaration stating that "all men are created equal" that ethically obliged them to renounce slavery.

pretty much.

I was hoping you would say that. As the US legal system disbars people with criminal records from taking positions, by your own argument, anyone in the legal establishment doesn't know what they are talking about, having not been tried (and found guilty) of a crime.

And you call me the anarchist? Heh.

if i was arguing Ace's point, you would all be jumping on my back...calling my stance laughable.

I don't think anyone here honestly believes that first-hand experience is necessary to have an informed opinion on this, or any other subject. I have never contracted AIDS, but that doesn't mean my opinion of "it is incredibly unpleasant, and all efforts should be made to eradicate it" is irrelevant.

None of the smokers I have ever known have contracted lung-cancer, this does not mean my opinion that it is lethal and causes death in some of the most unpleasant ways possible is irrelevant.

All human knowledge is passed on primarily through tertiary means - documentation, vocal communication, illustrations, etc.

Your position is now "that's not good enough" - well that's a first, and the fact you think that for some reason the nature of society or the culture of a country is somehow an exception to the traditional norms of information transmission does not make it *US* who are arbitrarily maintaining a dubious position.

[Qdrop]

HAHAHHAHAH. Ah forgive me but that was downright hilarious. My father being a cop of 30 years experience....

that is mind blowing that you can have cop father of 30 years and have such an out of step stance on the dangers they encounter everyday....

so with that family experiance in police work, you "don't understand why cop would walk up to you in your pulled over car with his flashlight blaring and his gun ready at his side?

do you, i dunno, talk to your father at all?

do you think, perhaps they had a report of a stolen Prius, or whatever you drive?

how can you have a cop father and NOT understand how dangerous and precarious a situation it is for a cop to approach a pulled over car.
i mean, i assume i am preaching to chior about the logistics of such an encounter....

[Qdrop]

ok, man.

don't call me a cliche, you don't know who the fuck I am.

nor you I.

i have no black friends, huh?

be careful of the "foot in mouth disease".....careful..

[Qdrop]

Oh wait, it ended three decades before the emancipation proclamation, and there was not the subsequent segregation which lasted right into the latter part of the previous century and is still prevalent today. Infact, the UK Navy was actively hunting down slavers when the US was still desperately trying to ship more into the plantations. And the UK never had a founding declaration stating that "all men are created equal" that ethically obliged them to renounce slavery.


yeah, you got a 30 year head start....
that makes you saints.

pot.kettle.black.

i'm sure there are NOOOOO instances of racism in britian.....
the land of milknhoney, utopia, ect.. ect...

are a couple of white guys like us gonna debate who's country has more racism in it's history?...

please, god, no......


I was hoping you would say that. As the US legal system disbars people with criminal records from taking positions, by your own argument, anyone in the legal establishment doesn't know what they are talking about, having not been tried (and found guilty) of a crime.


what a shitty anology.

first off, you are not completely correct with legal workers and criminal records....but you can take that up with someone on here who works in law (beth)....

second, US legal workers who do not have criminal records yet work day in day out in the US legal system in american society,
has virtually NO correlation to a unemployed 22 year old european, who lives with his parents and has never been to the US, yet has seen american TV and BIASED, FILTERED, OPINIONATED documentaries and thinks he has a strong understanding of nuanses of american society.

jesus, you actually think that the majority of american are dim-witted, toothless southern rednecks who think Jesus appeared on thier tortilla.

give me a fuckin break.

you're not gonna win this part of the debate.
[/QUOTE]




Your position is now "that's not good enough" - well that's a first, and the fact you think that for some reason the nature of society or the culture of a country is somehow an exception to the traditional norms of information transmission does not make it *US* who are arbitrarily maintaining a dubious position.

virtually all of your information comes through a "filter" of some sort, because it is NOT FIRST HAND!!


god, this is hopeless.
drop it.

you don't even really beleive, whole-heartedly, what you are arguing here....

i am not going to indulge you on this any further.

pick another topic if you must.

[Ace42]

yeah, you got a 30 year head start....
that makes you saints.

30 years head-start which *we actually stuck to* - Segregation was not a legal institution in the UK, and certainly not right up until the latter half of the twentieth century.

i'm sure there are NOOOOO instances of racism in britian...

You mean like "Nigger lynchings" ? Yep, none of those. US? Shitloads. The UK has its racist elements, no-one is denying it. In some cases it is even institutionalised (Stephen Lawrence situation, for example). However, it is quite different to telling black people they have to go on their "own bus" - or mobs performing random hangings.

are a couple of white guys like us gonna debate who's country has more racism in it's history?

Let's stick to the last one hundred years, shall we?

first off, you are not completely correct with legal workers and criminal records....but you can take that up with someone on here who works in law (beth)....

I'm sure she'll support my point by stating that people who work before the bar must have clear criminal records.

second, US legal workers who do not have criminal records yet work day in day out in the US legal system in american society,
has virtually NO correlation to a unemployed 22 year old european, who lives with his parents and has never been to the US, yet has seen american TV and BIASED, FILTERED, OPINIONATED documentaries and thinks he has a strong understanding of nuanses of american society.

While I acknowledge that this was just an excuse to resort to an ad hominem attack, I will point out that you have completely missed the point of the analogy.

Very little, if none, of the information you have based any single argument past or present in this forum on has been of the first-hand variety. All of it comes from secondary sources, such as documentaries, websites, newspapers, papers, etc etc.

By suggesting that only first-hand evidence is acceptable, you have instantly cut through 90% of the arguments in this board by sayign "None of us know nothing about what is going on"

You have never been pregnant, therefor your opinions on abortion are irrelevant. You have never been to Iraq, so your opinions on that are irrelevant. You have never actually met me or my parents, you have not seen my house, nor any proof of my age. You do not have first hand experience to say that I have never been to America. You do not have a first-hand experience of me, how I live, etc, yet you clearly think you have a strong and nuanced understanding of who I am and what I know. Therefore your opinions on what I do or do not know are, by your own argument, irrelevant.

jesus, you actually think that the majority of american are dim-witted, toothless southern rednecks who think Jesus appeared on thier tortilla.

Remind me who won your election again.

you're not gonna win this part of the debate.


Of course I'm not. You, as usual, will dismiss everything I say that is not in agreement with your preconceived notions as being to product of a "22 year old white guy that lives with his parents and hasn't visited America and plays video games" - something you have pulled out of your hat in numerous threads as a cover all rebuttal.

Because everyone knows that twenty-two year old white Englishmen don't know anything.

virtually all of your information comes through a "filter" of some sort, because it is NOT FIRST HAND!

Unlike posting on a bulletin board, which is in no way a filter... Like being processed by your brain and subjected to numerous arbitrary value judgements and whims, like being assimilated with your current preconceptions? Like your knowledge of everything that isn't immediately tangible?

you don't even really beleive, whole-heartedly, what you are arguing here....

Correct, I do not. But I do believe that you are saying things that are substantially wrong. IE that only first-hand knowledge is relevant. I can't say I have personally conducted numerous experiements or mathematical proofs in order to insure the knowledge I have is correct. However, I still have enough faith in my ability to process information correctly that I use it effectively regardless.

I do not think you honestly believe that "only first-hand experience is relevant" as that is a totally indefensible position. As Descartes demonstrated centuries ago, the only axiom you can maintain as a definite truth is "Cogito Ergo Sum" - the rest is subjective.

Seeing something first hand is not necessarily reliable. If presented with an optical illusion, your brain will perceive it in an incorrect manner. For example those lines which appear to be different lengths because of their orientation. If someone said "Actually they are the same length" (second hand information) then they would be correct and your perceptions would be incorrect.

Infact, because of its limited perspective, first-hand observation is generally LESS panoptic than the muliplicity of viewpoints given by the various media.

And as you do not have first-hand experience of the media I observe, you (by your own argument) cannot say it is biased or unacceptable.

QED.

[Qdrop]

You mean like "Nigger lynchings" ? Yep, none of those. US? Shitloads. The UK has its racist elements, no-one is denying it. In some cases it is even institutionalised (Stephen Lawrence situation, for example). However, it is quite different to telling black people they have to go on their "own bus" - or mobs performing random hangings.


short of James Bird a few years ago, such violence of that nature has been all but non-existant in decades.

yes, you could google up some random reports of "black man beaten in alabama" ect,
but our society is no where near the level of racist violence that was widespread in the early part of this century.


I'm sure she'll support my point by stating that people who work before the bar must have clear criminal records.

i honestly don't know.



While I acknowledge that this was just an excuse to resort to an ad hominem attack, I will point out that you have completely missed the point of the analogy.

Very little, if none, of the information you have based any single argument past or present in this forum on has been of the first-hand variety. All of it comes from secondary sources, such as documentaries, websites, newspapers, papers, etc etc.

By suggesting that only first-hand evidence is acceptable, you have instantly cut through 90% of the arguments in this board by sayign "None of us know nothing about what is going on"

You have never been pregnant, therefor your opinions on abortion are irrelevant. You have never been to Iraq, so your opinions on that are irrelevant. You have never actually met me or my parents, you have not seen my house, nor any proof of my age. You do not have first hand experience to say that I have never been to America. You do not have a first-hand experience of me, how I live, etc, yet you clearly think you have a strong and nuanced understanding of who I am and what I know. Therefore your opinions on what I do or do not know are, by your own argument, irrelevant.


okay okay.
i apolgize for the personal remarks.

and look, i understand and agree with your point to a degree.
of course first hand experiance is not REQUIRED to have an understanding of topics.
but to have a real solid understanding of a social atmosphere....you simply cannot rely on anything but first hand experiance.

it's like comparing a picture of the grand canyon with being there.
yes, you could google up all the geological data about it....
but you cannot manufacture the experiance through research.

social climate is a virtual intangible....it goes beyond the media.
i profess to not even have a strong understanding of the western US, the deep south, the mid west....as i have never been...
i can attest greatly to the social climates of the NE, and mid east....that's about it.
i have a greater understanding of general american sentiment and social climate (particularly it's nuances) than you....but i could not claim to be an expert on social life in alabama, for example.

without the personal experiance....we generalize....that is unavoidable.



Remind me who won your election again.


the republicans, yes.

but again, your view on republicans is greatly generalized and stereotyped.



Of course I'm not. You, as usual, will dismiss everything I say that is not in agreement with your preconceived notions as being to product of a "22 year old white guy that lives with his parents and hasn't visited America and plays video games" - something you have pulled out of your hat in numerous threads as a cover all rebuttal.

i apologized.


Because everyone knows that twenty-two year old white Englishmen don't know anything.

i'm not questioning you intelligence.






Correct, I do not.

good, let's drop it.
:rolleyes:

[ASsman]

jesus, you actually think that the majority of american are dim-witted, toothless southern rednecks who think Jesus appeared on thier tortilla.

Not all of the above, atleast the majority are idiots, or you could argue they are incredibly ignorant. I don't buy the ignorance crap.

the republicans, yes.

but again, your view on republicans is greatly generalized and stereotyped.
No, the President and all those hardliners. People like the President use to be a minority, now they have taken center stage, riding on his coattails. Don't even remind me about that election, God, I've forgotten what issues "won" the elections.

[Qdrop]

Don't even remind me about that election, God, I've forgotten what issues "won" the elections.

those "goddamn gays".....
:rolleyes:

[D_Raay]

that is mind blowing that you can have cop father of 30 years and have such an out of step stance on the dangers they encounter everyday....

so with that family experiance in police work, you "don't understand why cop would walk up to you in your pulled over car with his flashlight blaring and his gun ready at his side?

do you, i dunno, talk to your father at all?

do you think, perhaps they had a report of a stolen Prius, or whatever you drive?

how can you have a cop father and NOT understand how dangerous and precarious a situation it is for a cop to approach a pulled over car.
i mean, i assume i am preaching to chior about the logistics of such an encounter....

As a matter of FACT, I have infinitely more of an understanding of it than you do. I have worked in the station, watched prisoners and personally know over 30 policeman. My Father is a captain and if you asked him, he'd tell you without hesitation that over 80% of cops shouldn't be cops. He'd also tell you that there should be two new requirements for new cops, intelligence and decency. Don't speak to me on a subject that I have lived my whole life around. It's insulting and it shows your arrogance and ignorance to think you know of it. Especially more than me.

[Qdrop]

My Father is a captain and if you asked him, he'd tell you without hesitation that over 80% of cops shouldn't be cops. He'd also tell you that there should be two new requirements for new cops, intelligence and decency.

this is another topic all together....but i would whole heartedly agree.
i have great disdain for most of the police personel i have encountered in my life.....and i question many of thier motives for joining the force..

having said that though.....


Don't speak to me on a subject that I have lived my whole life around. It's insulting and it shows your arrogance and ignorance to think you know of it. Especially more than me.
well, sorry to upset.
but you speak as if you don't know.

why would you write out that story of you being pulled over by "paraniod" cops when you, by your own accord, should know FAR more of the logistics and dangers of pulling over motorists and the severe disadvantage a cop is at when approaching a vehicle window.

i would think someone with your personal experiance would be arguing MY side, and being the one to explain the dangers (and thustly, the percieved paranoid actions) of policemen in the line of duty.


honestly, i don't even what else we are arguing about.....

[D_Raay]

why would you write out that story of you being pulled over by "paraniod" cops when you, by your own accord, should know FAR more of the logistics and dangers of pulling over motorists and the severe disadvantage a cop is at when approaching a vehicle window.

i would think someone with your personal experiance would be arguing MY side, and being the one to explain the dangers (and thustly, the percieved paranoid actions) of policemen in the line of duty.
Because I have ridden with my cop buddies and my father on numerous occasions, and there alot of pre-judgements made before approaching a vehicle. They would have known it wasn't stolen because my plates would have indicated as such. They would have looked at me from behind and observed my movements, as well as if anyone else were in the car. This is why you pissed me off when questioning me. You stick hard to your pre-conceived notions. There is more to it than just what is obvious to you. The police around here, for want of anything better to do, are especially jittery and action-hungry, what with local police, sheriffs, and state police all looking in the same place for some action. And it is my personal opinion that an officer who displays some common sense and decency when dealing with the public is not in any significant danger. It's the action seekers who get themselves in trouble.
Just the other day my friend was stopped by the DEA of all people for throwing his cigarette butt out the window. They approached (4 of them) with guns drawn, and proceeded to pull him out of his car and search it without even asking him or having any probable cause. This is illegal, and it proves my point. Us against them. They should stand around all day and taser their own genitals. It might relieve their action cravings and rekindle their common sense and actually abide by the law. Something we pay them to do.

[Qdrop]

The police around here, for want of anything better to do, are especially jittery and action-hungry, what with local police, sheriffs, and state police all looking in the same place for some action. And it is my personal opinion that an officer who displays some common sense and decency when dealing with the public is not in any significant danger. It's the action seekers who get themselves in trouble.


well, though i lived in the baltimore/DC area for a couple of years, i had very little interaction with the local police force in that area (save a few speeding tickets and when my car stereo got stolen).
you, being an area native, would have more knowledge of the local police force and their inclinations as opposed to my local police force.

fine....i'm sick of arguing this.
this whole thread has been a fuckin headache from the get-go.


Just the other day my friend was stopped by the DEA of all people for throwing his cigarette butt out the window. They approached (4 of them) with guns drawn, and proceeded to pull him out of his car and search it without even asking him or having any probable cause. This is illegal, and it proves my point. Us against them.
that is fucked up, agreed.

[Whois]

The police around here, for want of anything better to do, are especially jittery and action-hungry, what with local police, sheriffs, and state police all looking in the same place for some action.

Gotta justify those budgets somehow...

[Ali]

multiple shocks from a Taser stun gun led to heart damage in pigs. So cops should not use them on each other in the showers after duty.