Italian hostage freed after one month... then shot by US troops [Archive]

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synch

03-05-2005, 07:09 AM

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has returned to Rome, hours after American troops in Iraq fired on the car she was in, wounding her and killing an Italian intelligence officer escorting the former hostage.

"The president assured Prime Minister Berlusconi that it would be fully investigated ... We're cooperating closely with Italian authorities."

Sgrena's partner said he could not fault the U.S. soldiers, telling Reuters they were probably "scared boys," and the blame lay with those who had sent them to Iraq.

But CNN's Alessio Vinci reported that Saturday's Il Manifesto newspaper had accused U.S. forces of "assassinating" Calipari.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/05/iraq.main/index.html

Are the US (tv) media covering this at all? What's the stance on this "incident"?

Ace42

03-05-2005, 07:58 AM

I have said it before, and I will say it again: The Yanks are triggerhappy. And that pig-fucker Hutton said it was rubbish.

racer5.0stang

03-05-2005, 08:09 AM

She probably was not wearing her seat belt.

Dr Deaf

03-05-2005, 08:24 AM

Nicola Calipari was killed when he tried to shield the 56-year-old former hostage from gunfire as they approached a military checkpoint near the airport in Baghdad. Calipari, who had worked to release other Italian hostages, died when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her.

that dude is a hero. rip. nicola calipari

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O beautiful for spacious skies,
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For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

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Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America ! America !
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

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Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man's avail
Men lavished precious life !
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Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!

synch

03-05-2005, 09:00 AM

I was especially curious about it as it was "front page" news on cnn.com.

No "oh my something went wrong" on the news networks then?

synch

03-05-2005, 09:10 AM

She probably was not wearing her seat belt.
Well she deserved to get shot at then, right?

Ace42

03-05-2005, 09:26 AM

I bet the yank that did it said "It wasn't me, it was the one-armed man!"

And then he shot Abdullah Aziz, an amputee after his arm was burnt off by Napalm in Fallujah.

infidel

03-05-2005, 10:39 AM

Makes me wonder if the released journalist learned something from her insurgent captors that the military didn't want her to report.

synch

03-05-2005, 10:41 AM

I reckon they would have been more thorough if that had been the case.

infidel

03-05-2005, 11:10 AM

I think they did this time, this article indicates that the US troop's target was known and deliberate
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1671944,00.html

freetibet

03-05-2005, 04:18 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/05/iraq.main/index.html

Are the US (tv) media covering this at all? What's the stance on this "incident"?

what a bunch of crapp.. that COMMUNIST journalist deserved it just because;)

and more seriously - 1) she asked for it, a few months after those 2 Italians were hostages.. she asked for it
2) she's the one to blame
3) they were overspeeding and driving towards the check point. wtf? why weren't they so brave when Mussolini was taking the office?:P I smell second French ;]

That car could've been loaded with tons of TNT.

synch

03-05-2005, 04:23 PM

I'm usually far more eloquent with my replies but I fear that I'll have to lower myself to your intellectual level for this particular one.

Fuck you.

Thank you and good night.

freetibet

03-05-2005, 04:26 PM

I smell a newbie with lots of free time to post:p

Same to You and people close to You. But say anything more contrary to my arguments ;>

freetibet

03-05-2005, 04:27 PM

Oh, and that communist wasn't SHOT as I believe. Now that's manipulation.

freetibet

03-05-2005, 04:28 PM

The media downplays and waters down anything negative out of Iraq.

The internet news sites are reporting it...but I haven't seen anything on TV.

We are US allies and we know all that. Jaysus, don't you overreact a bit? I thought we are considered to be 3rd world with no info..

synch

03-05-2005, 04:30 PM

what a bunch of crapp.. that COMMUNIST journalist deserved it just because;)I won't reply to this.

and more seriously -
1) she asked for it, a few months after those 2 Italians were hostages.. she asked for it
So every journalist should have evacuated leaving the only source of information to be the lovely impartial US military?
2) she's the one to blameThat's a statement that is based on nothing whatsoever
3) they were overspeeding and driving towards the check point. wtf? why weren't they so brave when Mussolini was taking the office?:P I smell second French ;]
That car could've been loaded with tons of TNT.
Read this:

The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday levelled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate.

"The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home.

"They were 700m from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints."

The shooting late on Friday was overheard by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office, which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged.

And what the hell is that Mussolini statement about?

freetibet

03-05-2005, 04:42 PM

Stopping Mussolini - the rush, the bravery, the courage (ironic). Italians are well known for pizza and mafia I guess...

Deliberate - yeah, they wanted to kill her. Don't tell me 'bout knowing about the case and stuff. Overspeeding - shooting. Simple.

She is a commie and they nearly killed her [the Arabs]. Some people never learn.

racer5.0stang

03-05-2005, 04:43 PM

Well she deserved to get shot at then, right?

Of course, she did have numerous outstanding tickets. :rolleyes:

synch

03-05-2005, 04:45 PM

franscar

03-05-2005, 05:02 PM

Tell me again...what are the Polish known for? ;)

Ooh, ooh, I know. Being invaded and erm, erm... that other stuff that they did.

synch

03-05-2005, 05:05 PM

A polish football "fan" once threw a knife at Dino Baggio's head.

Other than that I have no clue.

franscar

03-05-2005, 05:07 PM

Birmingham City signed a Polish guy on loan a while back, his name was Bak, but it was pronounced Bock. He was utter, utter crap.

synch

03-05-2005, 05:13 PM

Oh! The pope is polish.

Well. For a little bit longer anyway.

Funkaloyd

03-05-2005, 05:15 PM

Then there was that one time when they were forgotten by Senator Kerry.

Ali

03-05-2005, 05:20 PM

Tell me again...what are the Polish known for?getting slaughtered by germans and then occupied and fucked over by the russians

now cheap labour for Europe

freetibet

03-05-2005, 05:20 PM

Yeah, the Pope is Polish but it's probably utterly nazi to be happy about that. And that our religion isn't based on a king who needed a harem...:p for example

Invasions - hell yeah. I wonder how the West deals with its gulity consciense [forgot the spelling, badly]. Selling us to Stalin, bravo.

What I meant about the Italians was that when they finally showed some guts they messed it up.. Too bad for that brave bodyguard:\
[I know about rennessaince and stuff; e.g. I also know what Napoleon did and that he was kinda great but that doesn't seem to affect the WWII French achievements;)]

Polish football sucks. Hey, what place did England take in the 1974 WC? :p

calliope

03-05-2005, 05:22 PM

3) they were overspeeding and driving towards the check point. wtf? why weren't they so brave when Mussolini was taking the office?:P I smell second French ;]

That car could've been loaded with tons of TNT.
you are soooo wrong in a way you cant image, believe me...
1-Giuliana Sgrena had already declare that in Iraq was raining badly and there was non possibility to drive fast
2-Calipari made some calls IN ENGLISH and italian also to inform that they were passing in that fucking street
3-if your great history european culture its stuck at the Mussolini period well dear i suggest you to buy a good history book

my father was in NYC on sep.11 and i was in Boston and believe me you dont have an idea at what kind of censure you are dependant....

DroppinScience

03-05-2005, 05:24 PM

Tell me again...what are the Polish known for? ;)

They're known for nearly 1/2 of DroppinScience's ancestry. :p

freetibet

03-05-2005, 05:24 PM

You probably don't even know who Kosciuszko or Pulaski was.. [ironic] Go ahead, laugh at us. We saved European assess a few times, we'll do it again.

[Vienna 1683, Vistula miracle 1920]

I am so NAZI. 1683- that was the first act against muslims, leading to 9/11. 1920- exercises before Vietnam and killing innocent commies. Why tf am I saying it here.. You asked for a discussion 'bout Poland and the fact You fucked as a lot just for not being such assholes ;]

freetibet

03-05-2005, 05:27 PM

you are soooo wrong in a way you cant image, believe me...
1-Giuliana Sgrena had already declare that in Iraq was raining badly and there was non possibility to drive fast
2-Calipari made some calls IN ENGLISH and italian also to inform that they were passing in that fucking street
3-if your great history european culture its stuck at the Mussolini period well dear i suggest you to buy a good history book

my father was in NYC on sep.11 and i was in Boston and believe me you dont have an idea at what kind of censure you are dependant....

thank You, that's some reasonability finally.. yet still, I don't blame those soldiers. believing they did it on purpose or whatsoever and thought they would get away with it.. --> US caused the tsunami

calliope

03-05-2005, 05:29 PM

freetibet

03-05-2005, 05:30 PM

They're known for nearly 1/2 of DroppinScience's ancestry. :p

How to say it.. That's something You should be glad about;) at a decent degree, but glad ;] Take care!

calliope

03-05-2005, 05:32 PM

US caused the tsunami :confused: wtf?

ASsman

03-05-2005, 05:33 PM

I think I need to free myself all over freetibet's face.

It would be much more gratifying than reading this senseless posts.

synch

03-05-2005, 05:35 PM

The coffin is now being carried from the plane by several members of different branches of the military.

He's getting full military honours.

He gave his life to save the "commie that deserved to die".

Show a bit of respect please freetibet.

ASsman

03-05-2005, 05:38 PM

Hell, maybe now they can give him a warning shot...

synch

03-05-2005, 05:39 PM

They already gave him one.

In the head.

freetibet

03-05-2005, 05:53 PM

rip

DroppinScience

03-06-2005, 03:54 AM

What the hell is up with you hating Italians?

Oh wait... it's freetibet. I don't wanna know why you're such a bigot. :(

D_Raay

03-06-2005, 05:18 AM

Is he being sarcastic? (freetibet)

calliope

03-06-2005, 06:37 AM

Giuliana Sgrena said that the kidnapper advice her from the danger that could came from the US troops and told her that probably they (US troops) wont let her come home!
really i dont understand!She also said that there wasnt a checkpoint but they received that "friendly fire" rain from the right....
and after 2weeks the US admit today that they have taken AlZarqawi (or how the hell its wright),after 2weeks? :eek: :confused: :eek:

Funkaloyd

03-06-2005, 06:43 AM

Is he being sarcastic? (freetibet)

Do you mean his RIP comment, or the rest of his ramblings?

GreenFairy

03-06-2005, 01:43 PM

calliope

03-06-2005, 03:58 PM

We don't know what's really happened...I know just that someone will pay for this and I hope that the truth will out.
Irene...don't spend your time with this dude :rolleyes:

we know what Giuliana Sgrena said, its not enough?
you know why i spend my time on this?cause till few years ago i always tought that the USA(and their way of life also) was a fantastic place to stay, my family used to have a house there but after 10years we decide to make the move out from there,and it was sooooo sad :( i really dont understand how a great nation so loved in the world for their freedom and ideals can became such a hated one..... im just sad, thats it.... (n) :(

Qdrop

03-07-2005, 10:42 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/

“What has happened cannot be used as an alibi to revive anti-Americanism,” said the powerful speaker of the lower house of parliament, Pier Ferdinando Casini"

i agree it is fucking ridiculous to assume that US troops "targeted" this person because her hostage release had been negotiated.
fuckin unbelievable that people would jump on that like a bunch of lemmings.

if people want to come on here and post inflammitory remarks in yet another liberal circle jerk....go ahead...enjoy the lemming race.
--------------

“That’s just absurd,” McClellan repeated.

He said the airport road “has been a place where suicide car bombers have launched attacks. It’s been a place where regime elements have fired upon coalition forces. It is a dangerous road and it is a combat zone that our coalition forces are in. Oftentimes, they have to make split second decisions to protect their own security."

Whois

03-07-2005, 11:05 AM

I think I need to free myself all over freetibet's face.

It would be much more gratifying than reading this senseless posts.

:eek: (y)

"Yellow showers..."

D_Raay

03-07-2005, 11:42 AM

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why. But then I realized my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me. They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me but I had to be careful, "the Americans don't want you to go back." Then when they had told me I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths, at this time I cannot tell you the rest.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html
The Italian government has virtually admitted a ransom was paid, with the agriculture minister in Silvio Berlusconi's rightwing government, Giovanni Alemanno, saying it was "very likely".

He added it was "generally preferable to pay a financial price than the price of a human life or a political price consisting of [submitting to] blackmail by pulling out troops".

An Iraqi MP told Belgian state television on Saturday that a $1m (£520,000) ransom was paid. But Italian media reports spoke of a payment of up to $8m.

In an interview broadcast by Sky Italia, Sgrena said: "The United States does not approve of this policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1432040,00.html
Newsweek reported that the Pentagon is considering using the "Salvador Option" in reference to a counter-insurgency strategy of the 1980s which saw the CIA-train local secret forces to go after leftists insurgents and their sympathisers in the Central American country and which led to tens of thousands of deaths.

A few weeks ago, and of particular interest to Italy, researcher Daniele Ganser with the Centre for Security Studies at the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich published a book on the NATO's Secret Armies after WWII. The research offers plenty of proof on how NATO and the secret services in various European countries collaborated in attacks on civilians that were blamed on left-wing groups. It was not till the early 1990s that a former Italian prime minister, Giulio Andreotti confirmed that the secret group, code- named Gladio, existed.

Ganser's book contains various documented confessions including this chilling statement by former Gladio member, a right-wing extremist who was convicted for his part in one fatal attack, "You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/732/in2.htm

The Americans say: the car was travelling at high speed
The Italians say: it was travelling at 40-50kph

US: It approached a checkpoint near the airport at speed when soldiers fired on it to force it to stop as a "last resort"
Italy: It had passed three checkpoints without incident and was 700 metres from the airport when fired upon

US: The soldiers used hand signals and bright lights and fired warning shots before hitting the car with shots
Italy: There was no warning. Three to four hundred rounds were fired, afterwards the car seats were covered in spent cartridges. The Americans forced the Italians to remain in the car without medical attention for an hour

US: There was a lack of co-ordination between the Italians and the Americans
Italy: The Americans were kept fully informed

US: It was a regrettable accident which will be aggressively investigated
Italy: Ms Sgrena claims it was a deliberate ambush to kill her, as the Italians had paid a ransom, a practice America opposes, and as she had learnt inconvenient facts from her abductors.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=617569
Napalm Raid on Falluja?
73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found

GIULIANA SGRENA
«We buried them, but we could not identify them because they were charred from the napalm bombs used by the Americans». People from Saqlawiya village, near Falluja, told al Jazeera television, based in Qatar, that they helped bury 73 bodies of women and children completely charred, all in the same grave. The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddam’s times, is not yet finished.
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

This story supports the theory that Sgrena was first "kidnapped", then targeted for assassination by the US because she found hard proof that the US was using banned chemical weapons on civilians in Fallujah.

While so many journalists have been killed by the U.S. military that some have wondered aloud (and lived to regret it) if media personnel might actually be targeted to dissuade independent reporting on Mr. Bush's wars, it's nonetheless unusual for a just-freed journalist, held hostage for a month, to be shot, along with her rescuer, by U.S. troops.

Pro-Bush/pro-war Americans are quick to defend "our troops," even when families are slaughtered and children are orphaned at brutal checkpoints. But the Italians, a people more in possession of their faculties than the radical "conservatives" dominating this morally challenged nation of ours, are less sanguine, perhaps because they're not in the habit of defending cold-blooded murder.

In yet another tragic blunder, revealing to any sentient human being what the U.S. military machine has come to represent for people across the world, "our troops" – no doubt following immoral but quite legal rules of engagement – shot first and asked questions later. Left dead was brave secret service agent Nicola Calipari, who had rescued journalist Giuliana Sgrena. Reuters reports:

"The shooting in Iraq on Friday, as the reporter was being whisked to freedom after being held hostage for a month, was sure to fuel antiwar activists in Italy and put pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi."

Pressure on Berlusconi? No way! He's a pal of GWB, so not to worry. As I've noted before, the Bush administration, like the Blair establishment and the Israeli government, has turned the "bad apples" excuse for rotten deeds into an art form. To save everyone the time and trouble (not to mention the emotional ups and downs) of following this saga from its tragic beginning to its predictable end.

Damage Control:

1.

A tragedy occurs: "Our troops" have killed more innocent people, only this time the victims aren't Arabs/Muslims (in neocon-speak, the "evildoers"), thus the potential for public uproar and backlash exists.
2.

Code Blue! Any signs of uproar or backlash must be attacked preemptively. Immediate public appearances are required by Mr. Bush and the leader of the victim's home country: Talk extensively about the event, how you're praying for the families, and so on.

a). Stress your "regret" for this "unfortunate incident."

b). Immediately announce "an independent investigation."

c). If the natives are getting restless, make statements or decisions to illustrate that this time you're really taking the incident seriously.

d). Displays of outrage or of "demanding explanations" from the offending nation may be necessary if protests are developing; this is the only situation wherein a coalition partner is not required to present a united front with the Bush administration.

e). Announce again "the investigation," but add that this time the investigation will be really thorough, leaving no stone unturned, and will not end up whitewashing guilt at all higher levels of authority.

f). Emphasize that both leaders are in full agreement now, that you're both torn up about it, and that neither is catering to the wishes of the other.
3.

ASAP, tell your State-influenced newspapers to allot only one or two days to the outrageous nature of the incident. They should then shift angles: From day three onward, they should (1) stop writing about public reactions/protests, or the situation (e.g., the war or occupation) that gave rise to the shooting, or the nature of the system (e.g., rules of engagement) that set the shooters up for an incident such as this one, and (2) start writing about the "bad apples" who did the shooting, with as much juicy detail into their lurid pasts or deranged personalities as possible.
4.

Periodically during the next few weeks, have your newspapers write in glowing terms about the extremely thorough, independent, non-whitewashed investigation that your military is performing to "find out who's responsible." (This will end up being, to everyone's "surprise," the individual shooters.)
5.

If possible, have a photo-op with the two leaders together, looking somber, possibly shaking hands or with one arm across the other's shoulder. If this cannot be arranged or would look too cheesy, have other photos published showing diplomats from the two countries meeting, expressing regret over the incident, or talking about the thorough, independent, non-whitewashed investigation.
6.

After a few weeks, when the public furor has died down, have your newspapers report that the investigation is about to come to a close. Hint that nobody higher in rank than the shooters is to blame, and that all military personnel have been extremely cooperative. Papers should depict the issue as a purely internal military affair: No stories should link this unfortunate incident to the war/occupation itself.
7.

A few months later, announce that the thorough, independent, non-whitewashed investigation has been completed and the verdict is in: there was a miscommunication or an error in judgment, which the military regrets, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the troops who fired the fatal shots.
8.

If the public (especially in the victim's home country) is still upset at this time, make the sentence severe (several years in prison). However, in the more likely event that the public is less upset and/or has forgotten this event in the intervening months – during which time many more tragic events have grabbed headlines and attention – the sentence can be mild (a few months in prison, or none).
9.

Have your newspapers do some stories showing troops from both countries working together.
10.

Now it's time for the cherry on the cake: have a photo-op with both leaders smiling, preferably in the Oval Office, announcing that their respective nations are firmer friends than ever. The admirable ways in which this tragic incident was handled, with great cooperation on both sides, only strengthens their resolve to stand by one another in the War on Terror, no matter what the cost.

So for all who fear that this checkpoint killing could have negative fallout for Mr. Bush or Mr. Berlusconi, allow me to assure you that the 10-step system above is rather foolproof. It's worked so many times for Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair, Mr. Sharon, and of course Mr. Berlusconi that there's no reason to believe it won't work now.

Even now, steps in the UIP are being taken to correct mistakes made, so that lessons will be learned (FYI: note the passive voice of this sentence, which is highly recommended for distracting attention or outrage away from the perpetrators of illegal, immoral wars and occupations). As the Reuters article concludes:

"Berlusconi, who defied widespread public opposition to the Iraq war and sent 3,000 troops, took the rare step of summoning U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office. He demanded the United States 'leave no stone unturned' in investigating the incident.

"President Bush was quick to call Berlusconi and promise a full investigation…"

GreenFairy

03-07-2005, 12:45 PM

We don't know yet what's really happened but I believe in Giuliana Sgrena's account...

Qdrop

03-07-2005, 12:47 PM

let's see what the bloggers turn up......

calliope

03-07-2005, 12:55 PM

i agree it is fucking ridiculous to assume that US troops "targeted" this person because her hostage release had been negotiated.
fuckin unbelievable that people would jump on that like a bunch of lemmings.
if people want to come on here and post inflammitory remarks in yet another liberal circle jerk....go ahead...enjoy the lemming race.
He said the airport road “has been a place where suicide car bombers have launched attacks. It’s been a place where regime elements have fired upon coalition forces. It is a dangerous road and it is a combat zone that our coalition forces are in. Oftentimes, they have to make split second decisions to protect their own security."

i know you didnt quote me but i do not come here to post inflammitory remarks but to speak with other people about this and have an exchange of views, is that so wrong?
im sorry if my message offended you, i really didnt mean to, but i even need to vent this out

infidel

03-07-2005, 07:58 PM

What is the driver saying, haven't heard anything from him.
Some how it seems the Italians might have been having a rejoiceful good old time, dodging puddles to the point of almost losing control and could have been oblivious to what was really going on.
Still the scared shitless American kids fighting in Iraq need to learn not to shoot at anything that moves, 300- 400 warning shots seems a little excessive.

synch

03-07-2005, 08:15 PM

They had already passed three checkpoints apparently... they were 700 metres from the airport... she had been held hostage for a month... I can immagine them being cheerful. The danger was supposed to be behind them.

Ace42

03-07-2005, 08:34 PM

That's only 13+ clips.

or, alternatively, 133 TRB trigger pulls.

Or alternatively, 2+ full SAW belts.

DroppinScience

03-08-2005, 01:08 AM

let's see what the bloggers turn up......

What, those fact obsessed bloggers? :eek:

(Daily Show reference)

calliope

03-08-2005, 02:33 AM

What is the driver saying, haven't heard anything from him.

the other italian is a secret agent what he said is still protect from the military secret..... :( hope he will clarify many things

Freedom Toast

03-08-2005, 01:50 PM

--------------

“That’s just absurd,” McClellan repeated.

He said the airport road “has been a place where suicide car bombers have launched attacks. It’s been a place where regime elements have fired upon coalition forces. It is a dangerous road and it is a combat zone that our coalition forces are in. Oftentimes, they have to make split second decisions to protect their own security."

Ah....I see you bought the BS... hook,line & sinker! The Italians were EXPECTED to arrive at the airport.

Qdrop and the rest of the pod-people Republican lemmings like sisko will swallow anything the White House shoots down their throats.

Qdrop

03-08-2005, 02:21 PM

Qdrop and the rest of the pod-people Republican lemmings like sisko will swallow anything the White House shoots down their throats.

haven't we already been down the "qdrop is not a republican/conservative" road like 300 times?

funny, when i tear up the bush admin. in other threads...you say nothing.

but in situations like this, i am suddenly (and once again) "an ardent bush supporter" in so many words.

such infantile reasoning in an attempt to dismiss me.
you've been on this board long enough and have seen enough of my posts....don't fucking pretend and build strawmen with me.
it grows old.....

Whois

03-08-2005, 03:31 PM

:confused: wtf?

His meds ran out...

Freedom Toast

03-08-2005, 03:43 PM

haven't we already been down the "qdrop is not a republican/conservative" road like 300 times?

funny, when i tear up the bush admin. in other threads...you say nothing.

but in situations like this, i am suddenly (and once again) "an ardent bush supporter" in so many words.

such infantile reasoning in an attempt to dismiss me.
you've been on this board long enough and have seen enough of my posts....don't fucking pretend and build strawmen with me.
it grows old.....

I made fun of you for running with the herd because you fucking quoted Scott McClellan for your reasoning. Talk about infantile reasoning! :rolleyes:

Only a Bush supporter would believe everything the White House spin doctor says.

ASsman

03-08-2005, 03:50 PM

DUN DUN! BATMAN!

Funkaloyd

03-08-2005, 06:11 PM

The Italians were EXPECTED to arrive at the airport.

Pretty much all friendly fire incidents are caused by poor communication.

synch

03-08-2005, 06:19 PM

Fini, the italian minister of foreign affairs, stated that the car wasn't speeding as the americans said they were (they were travelling at a maximum speed of 40km/h), that the car breaked right away when the lights were turned on on them, that one or more automatic weapons were fired at them and that two young US soldiers came up to the car and apologised after the shots were fired.

ASsman

03-08-2005, 06:28 PM

LIES! LIES I TELLS YOU!

The US has said the vehicle carrying Ms Sgrena to the airport was "travelling at high speeds" and "refused to stop at a checkpoint".

A US patrol made several attempts to warn the driver of the car, but soldiers fired into the engine when the car failed to stop.

Italian officials have disputed the US version of events, saying the vehicle was not speeding and there were no warnings before the soldiers opened fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4330405.stm

I don't know but I don't believe "The US", just because, no real reason.

calliope

03-09-2005, 12:39 AM

the point is that someone have to pay this terrible mistake, Italians are totally pissed cause dont want another Cernis! :(

Ali

03-09-2005, 03:17 AM

Pretty much all friendly fire incidents are caused by poor communication.Pretty much all friendly fire incidents are caused by trigger-happy, fatigued, scared shitless, badly-disciplined US troops.

When soldiers of any calibre have been stationed in that sort of situation for that long, this sort of thing is bound to happen.

Donald Rumsfeld is to blame.

Italy should withdraw its support for the US in Iraq, unless Donald P. Bumfuck Darth Fucking Rumsfeld personally apologises for keeping so many soldiers in Iraq for so long.

GreenFairy

03-09-2005, 03:13 PM

Personally in this moment I don't give a fuck about apologies. I want the truth, I want an explanation 'cause I'm so tired of lies. We are all so tired :mad:

Whois

03-09-2005, 04:14 PM

Personally in this moment I don't give a fuck about apologies. I want the truth, I want an explanation 'cause I'm so tired of lies. We are all so tired :mad:

Expect more lies...because our leaders are not trustworthy, any of them.

GreenFairy

03-09-2005, 04:51 PM

I know...and that's so disgusting.

Tone Capone

03-10-2005, 06:42 AM

THERE's the outrage I was wondering about...

If any of you SERIOUSLY think that this was anything BUT a horrible and tragic accident... get a life.

synch

03-10-2005, 06:49 AM

A tragic accident that has it's roots in a much bigger problem but will be played down as an incident instead of a structural failure by the US Army.

Tone Capone

03-10-2005, 07:03 AM

THERE's the outrage I was wondering about...

If any of you SERIOUSLY think that this was anything BUT a horrible and tragic accident... get a life.

synch

03-10-2005, 07:13 AM

Stressed out young soldiers that have been stationed for far too long, that's not a separate incident, that's structural failure.

Tone Capone

03-10-2005, 07:30 AM

Stressed out young soldiers that have been stationed for far too long, that's not a separate incident, that's structural failure.

So I guess there is a video tape of what happened then?

synch

03-10-2005, 07:36 AM

Tone Capone

03-10-2005, 07:43 AM

Somehow I take the word of the people that got shot at more seriously than the word of the people that have done the shooting.

I'm silly that way.

No problem though, I understand you taking the word of the US soldiers more seriously than those of the people they shot. It's all a question of perspective.

This is the thing...
If you were in that car, would you be like "Oh yeah we were speeding toward the gate and refused to stop so they blasted us" of course not, you'd be like "whoa, I don't know why they shot at me, I wasn't doing anything... etc"

Qdrop

03-10-2005, 08:06 AM

ASsman

03-10-2005, 09:56 AM

Meh, I don't see why they wouldn't have stopped being in the situation/place that they are, after a warning shot... After that you are to shoot the engine....After that you are to shoot the driver, that's procedure.

synch

03-10-2005, 12:56 PM

This is the thing...
If you were in that car, would you be like "Oh yeah we were speeding toward the gate and refused to stop so they blasted us" of course not, you'd be like "whoa, I don't know why they shot at me, I wasn't doing anything... etc"
It just doesn't add up, the stories are too different and don't make sense. Two Italian secret service men would know when to stop a car.

I said it a while back but the foreign minister declared that they weren't speeding and had already passed three check points.

Anyways, it's natural that you stick by "your guys" and I stick by "mine" so this isn't going to be much more than a "are not" "am too" "are not" unless some new information is given.

Whois

03-10-2005, 01:21 PM

It just doesn't add up, the stories are too different and don't make sense. Two Italian secret service men would know when to stop a car.

I said it a while back but the foreign minister declared that they weren't speeding and had already passed three check points.

Anyways, it's natural that you stick by "your guys" and I stick by "mine" so this isn't going to be much more than a "are not" "am too" "are not" unless some new information is given.

Yes but YOU'RE supporting COMMIES!

Whatshisface supports the GOOD GUYS (in white hats)...

If anyone asks for me I'll be in back sniffing gasoline.

Tone Capone

03-11-2005, 01:12 AM

Anyways, it's natural that you stick by "your guys" and I stick by "mine" so this isn't going to be much more than a "are not" "am too" "are not" unless some new information is given.

true.

Ali

03-11-2005, 02:54 AM

If anyone asks for me I'll be in back sniffing gasoline.what octane?

D_Raay

03-11-2005, 04:39 AM

If you bothered researching both accounts, it would appear clear what the answer is... When we do it we are admonished as "liberals" as if it were a bad thing.

D_Raay

03-15-2005, 08:45 PM

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/031505Madsen/031505madsen.html

March 15, 2005—The Bush administration took specific legal steps that cleared a U.S. Special Forces assassination team in Iraq from any future criminal proceedings arising from their assassination of Italian SISMI intelligence number two man Nicola Calipari.

Calipari, the deputy head of SISMI and an experienced Iraqi expert, was accompanying freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad International Airport when their Toyota Corolla was fired on by well-trained U.S. sharpshooter assassins. Calipari was on the phone to the office of Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in Rome, where his wife also works, when he was shot in the head. Sgrena and the driver, a Carabiniere officer, were injured in the attack.

Pentagon officials claim the car was speeding past a checkpoint and that shots were fired only into the engine block. The Italians claim the interior light in the car was on, the car was traveling at only 30 miles per hour, and prominently displayed the Italian flag. Italian intelligence officials also believe that the Americans identified the Italian vehicle because National Security Agency systems had intercepted Calipari's cell phone signals and triangulated its specific location.

The legal protection for the American assassination team stems generally from the refusal of the Bush administration to recognize the International Criminal Court (ICC), but more recently and specifically from a new counterintelligence doctrine outlined by National Counterintelligence Executive Michelle Van Cleave, who was once a member of Ronald Reagan's National Security Council staff. That strategy, announced by Van Cleave at a March 5 speech at Texas A&M University in College Station, calls for "attacking" foreign intelligence services by using counterintelligence operations. The immunity from ICC jurisdiction, the new counterintelligence strategy, the Pentagon's approval of special assassination teams in Iraq and elsewhere, as well as approval of a CIA "Worldwide Attack Matrix," now authorizes U.S. military forces and intelligence agents to assassinate those deemed a threat to the United States.

Calipari and Sgrena, according to well-placed Italian sources, had irrefutable evidence of U.S. war crimes in the siege of Fallujah, involving the use of napalm, mustard gas, and nerve gas. Sgrena works for the Italian daily, Il Manifesto.

Calipari's intelligence collection efforts and previous hostage rescue missions in Iraq were supplemented by assistance from the Vatican's own intelligence services, which maintained close ties to Eastern Catholic members of Saddam's government, including former Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz. Calipari's brother is a well-connected monsignor in the Vatican Secretariat.

Calipari maintained liaison with Iraqi resistance fighters, who were formerly members of Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard, to secure Sgrena's release. This did not sit well with the Bush administration.

According to Italian sources, the ex-Republican Guard members have worked with Italian intelligence to combat the alleged al Qaeda and Abu Musad Al Zarqawi "terrorists" who took Americans, Italians, and others hostage. The Bush administration and its neo-conservative architects of the Iraq war do not want it widely known that the Iraqi resistance is split between ex-Republican Guards, who have worked with the Italians, and fanatic Islamists.

The U.S. hit team wanted to kill Calipari and Sgrena because they had intimate knowledge of the Iraqi resistance and how some loyalists of the U.S.-supported Iraqi regime may have cooperated with the alleged Zarqawi forces to seize Western hostages and decapitate them on videos for propaganda purposes. Many of the beheading videos show masked men who do not appear to be extremist Muslim Iraqis or even Arabs from their build, stance, sporting of jewelry, and, in one case, speaking Russian.

According to Italian sources, the ex-Republican Guardsmen view the alleged Zarqawi and his alleged al Qaeda allies as "monsters," but also know that the ex-Republican Guard members, many of whom are secular Muslims, had nothing to do with the hostage taking and beheadings as often claimed by neoconservatives in the Bush administration.
------
So as it becomes clear, there is hasty legal action taken to cover it up. Typical behavior nowadays. Where did I put that damn surf board? I'm sure going to need it...

Bob

03-15-2005, 09:35 PM

Makes me wonder if the released journalist learned something from her insurgent captors that the military didn't want her to report.

well...she's still alive. what's she saying?

nothing about this makes sense. alright, i can see why the US military hates it when their allies negotiate with terrorists and pay their ransom demands, but why would killing the former hostage be a reasonable response? what possible good result could come out of that? i find it hard to believe that this could be so deliberate, i don't believe that even our government could be so utterly tactless.

in this kind of situation, i don't think you can really trust EITHER side's story. yeah, the guys who got shot at are going to say they've done nothing wrong, but are you going to believe the story of the guys who just shot up a car full of civilians? they have nothing to hide? the truth must be in the middle of this.

my completely unresearched guess is that it was the result of a trigger-happy and/or freaked out/fatigued soldier who didn't know how to react to the situation. the italians say they were in direct contact with the americans right up to the time before the shooting, but that doesn't mean the soldiers were notified. the italians might have been talking to the embassy, or officials at the airport or something, but the soldiers at the checkpoint might not have known what the fuck was going on. yeah, the car passed 3 checkpoints without incident, but i guess the soldiers there had their wits about them better than the jerkoffs at the last one.

even if it was a total accident though, 300 rounds or whatever the number was seems really fucking excessive. has anyone seen the predator? you know the part where the guy with the minigun tears down the forest? it's like that, i can't imagine doing that kind of thing completely by accident, no matter how freaked out you are. then again, i've never been a soldier...

basically, nothing adds up at all and this is very confusing

D_Raay

03-16-2005, 03:54 AM

my completely unresearched guess is that it was the result of a trigger-happy and/or freaked out/fatigued soldier who didn't know how to react to the situation.
You see that's where you are wrong Bob. They weren't trigger happy freaked out soldiers. They were a trained assassin squad. They had intercepted the cell phone calls and triangulated the signal.

synch

03-16-2005, 04:13 AM

You see that's where you are wrong Bob. They weren't trigger happy freaked out soldiers. They were a trained assassin squad. They had intercepted the cell phone calls and triangulated the signal.
According to what source? It sounds a tad speculative to me.

Either way there is too much discrepancy between the "only shot the engine block" and "200-300 bullets". I tend to believe the people that were shot at.

The car was retrieved but you don't hear anything about that anymore.

I think the Italian government is keeping quiet on this to protect their busom buddy Bush although it was announced that Italy was going to start getting troops out of iraq starting september.

The immunity from ICC jurisdiction, the new counterintelligence strategy, the Pentagon's approval of special assassination teams in Iraq and elsewhere, as well as approval of a CIA "Worldwide Attack Matrix," now authorizes U.S. military forces and intelligence agents to assassinate those deemed a threat to the United States.

Immunity isn't the right word. Immunity is granted, the US simply refuse to acknowledge the court. Absolutely ridiculous.

Ali

03-16-2005, 07:38 AM

Qdrop

03-16-2005, 09:27 AM

D_Raay

03-16-2005, 12:50 PM

According to what source? It sounds a tad speculative to me.

Well, I can only say "well placed Italian sources". You are right to be speculative, as is Bob and Q. I don't imagine these sources want their names used as it may be politically dangerous for them.

Qdrop

03-16-2005, 12:52 PM

Well, I can only say "well placed Italian sources". You are right to be speculative, as is Bob and Q. I don't imagine these sources want their names used as it may be politically dangerous for them.

D, you're crossing into "fringe" territory here....
i've not known you to be like this in the past.....

D_Raay

03-16-2005, 12:55 PM

Yeah you are right. Let's just say I am pretty confident in what I stated earlier, but I could always be wrong and wouldn't mind if I were.

Whois

03-16-2005, 01:05 PM

...and this just in:

US troops shoot dead Iraqi general

The deputy commander of the Iraqi army in western Al-Anbar province was shot dead by US troops at a checkpoint Tuesday night, a police officer said.

"The US forces opened fire at 8:00 pm on Brigadier General Ismail Swayed al-Obeid, who had left his base in Baghdadi to head home," police Captain Amin al-Hitti said.

"They spotted him on the road after the curfew, which goes into effect at 6pm," the officer said in Baghdadi, 185 kilometres west of the capital.

No immediate reaction was available from the US military.

US forces have struggled to build up Iraqi security forces in Al-Anbar, where the country's insurgency is at its strongest, and many police and national guard units are suspected of having been infiltrated by rebels.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1324274.htm

Hahahahahahahahaha...idiots.

p.s. Err, forgot this was already posted "Doeth!"

Qdrop

03-16-2005, 01:15 PM

Bob

03-16-2005, 01:55 PM

You see that's where you are wrong Bob. They weren't trigger happy freaked out soldiers. They were a trained assassin squad. They had intercepted the cell phone calls and triangulated the signal.

but still, the question is why? why would we do it on purpose? to send a message not to negotiate with terrorists? but in order to send that message, we'd have to own up to the assassination, and say "we did and we'll do it again, so just give it up" but instead we're denying it up and down. it doesn't make any sense to me. maybe it's one of those things that's not supposed to make sense to guys like me. in all probability, it's one of those things that i'm not even supposed to know about.

D_Raay

03-16-2005, 04:10 PM

but still, the question is why? why would we do it on purpose? to send a message not to negotiate with terrorists? but in order to send that message, we'd have to own up to the assassination, and say "we did and we'll do it again, so just give it up" but instead we're denying it up and down. it doesn't make any sense to me. maybe it's one of those things that's not supposed to make sense to guys like me. in all probability, it's one of those things that i'm not even supposed to know about.
Well she did have concrete evidence(which we are yet to see) of napalm being used in Fallujah and other transgressions.

Funkaloyd

03-16-2005, 06:56 PM

She had already done a story on Napalm use in Fallujah, and it didn't make it to the mainstream. Even if it did, it would still be less controversial than the news that American troops shot a white woman.

synch

03-16-2005, 07:12 PM

If, and I mean IF they intended to kill her the idea wouldn't have been to keep her alive and let her talk about who shot her.

That doesn't add up either, I reckon that if they wanted to kill her they would have.

Unless they ran out of ammo or something...

Whois

03-17-2005, 11:59 AM

If they wanted her dead, she would now be dead...EOS.

Ali

05-03-2005, 02:54 AM

DIFFERING ACCOUNTS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4504855.stm)
US military:
Car approaches checkpoint at high speed
Troops attempt to tell driver to stop with arm signals, lights and warning shots
Soldiers shoot into engine

Italian government:
Italy makes all necessary contacts with the US for safe passage
Driver stops immediately after a light is pointed at the car
Right after, shots are fired into car without further warningsDon't you just love this? The findings in the US report were heavily censored, with large blocks of the text blacked out when it was published.

However, a university student in Italy claims he was able to remove the censored parts using his computer and has passed a seemingly full US report to Italy's media. Hahahahaahahaha. That's some high-tech ink they're using in those black-out markers!The report, published on the Italian intelligence services' website, says that the roadblock from which Calipari was shot was set up ineptly and there were no signals indicating its presence.

"It is likely that the state of tension stemming from the conditions of time, circumstances and place, as well as possibly some degree of inexperience and stress might have led some soldiers to instinctive and little-controlled reactions," the report said, quoted by the Associated Press news agency.

It denied the US assertion that their military command in Baghdad was unaware of the Italian mission to secure the hostage's release, pointing out that the Italians had been allocated secure accommodation in an American-controlled area. Doh!

So, the Americans knew the Italians were in Iraq, conducting the operation, but nobody told the kids at that checkpoint that there might be a car moving at speed along that road at that time?

Communications breakdown?