Who has complete faith in democracy?

[paulk]

How about that?

[ASsman]

True Democracy?

[checkyourprez]

ideal democracy? no. its not possible.

what we got, yes. not always right but gets the job done.

[Ace42]

ideal democracy? no. its not possible.

It's called "referendum" - and in this age moreso than any other, direct rule by the people can be a reality, not just a dream.

[phinkasaurus]

direct democracy is possible. the internet and the advent of bradband access for all, wi-fi, and the move towards open source. It's possible to give everyone a voice.

what we have now is merely representative democracy on the surface, but really is more of a dictatorship of one class over another.

if you look at the root definitions, democracy and communism are synonymous.

so yes, I have faith in democracy. snything else is to say one has no fiath in humanity.

[checkyourprez]

direct democracy is possible. the internet and the advent of bradband access for all, wi-fi, and the move towards open source. It's possible to give everyone a voice.

what we have now is merely representative democracy on the surface, but really is more of a dictatorship of one class over another.

if you look at the root definitions, democracy and communism are synonymous.

so yes, I have faith in democracy. snything else is to say one has no fiath in humanity.


demcracy gives us the freedom to be unequal. its the whole point though.

[phinkasaurus]

demcracy gives us the freedom to be unequal. its the whole point though.

gives us the freedom to be unequal? in what way? define unequal.

[open letter]

well if a "democracy" can lock people up in a prison in cuba,without trial then complain when other contrys lock people up or put them under house arest (burmha)
then i have no faith in democracy

[Pres Zount]

Well I'd dissagree that Democracy and Communism are the same, but only on a technicality.

I have faith in democracy, I have no faith in bourgeois parlimentary democracy.

[Pres Zount]

well if a "democracy" can lock people up in a prison in cuba,without trial then complain when other contrys lock people up or put them under house arest (burmha)
then i have no faith in democracy

Well Cuba is not communist or a democracy. Cuba has never claimed that it was communist.

[open letter]

Well Cuba is not communist or a democracy. Cuba has never claimed that it was communist.
i was on about gwantanimo bay
or however you spell it

[checkyourprez]

gives us the freedom to be unequal? in what way? define unequal.


speaking of capitalism and democracy...
"The condition stems naturally and inevitably from the related facts that both systems leave indivduals free to pursue their interests and that some will simply do better at the pursuit than others. Thus even when everyone is equally free, some people under democracry will be more successful at manipulating the polictical system in a beneficial way ( estracting favors from it, getting it to support their pupet poilcy projects)."

"The result of all this is that democracy, like life and capitalism, may often be notably unfair. some people, because of their manipulative skills, social position, or sheer luck will do much better under the system than others. Unlike other systems, however, decomcracy gives to everyone the opportunity without regard to social status or ideoligical conviction to seek to manipulate the system in their favor.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0691090823/ref=dp_proddesc_0/103-5937621-0526210?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155

[ASsman]

well if a "democracy" can lock people up in a prison in cuba,without trial then complain when other contrys lock people up or put them under house arest (burmha)
then i have no faith in democracy
At first I thought he was talking about the US, then I thought "Wait that's not a Democracy either".

I do, I believe if given freedom people will learn to be responsible, like boobies in Europe, US peopel flip out over Boobies, Europeans.. not so much.

[open letter]

At first I thought he was talking about the US, then I thought "Wait that's not a Democracy either".

I do, I believe if given freedom people will learn to be responsible, like boobies in Europe, US peopel flip out over Boobies, Europeans.. not so much.
thats cause america is controled by white midle class people who get ofended if you say cock :)

[Qdrop]

speaking of capitalism and democracy...
"The condition stems naturally and inevitably from the related facts that both systems leave indivduals free to pursue their interests and that some will simply do better at the pursuit than others. Thus even when everyone is equally free, some people under democracry will be more successful at manipulating the polictical system in a beneficial way ( estracting favors from it, getting it to support their pupet poilcy projects)."

"The result of all this is that democracy, like life and capitalism, may often be notably unfair. some people, because of their manipulative skills, social position, or sheer luck will do much better under the system than others. Unlike other systems, however, decomcracy gives to everyone the opportunity without regard to social status or ideoligical conviction to seek to manipulate the system in their favor.




an excellant quote.(and that proffesor is from Rochester!)
and you can replace "democracy" with "capitalism" as well.

[phinkasaurus]

true democracy is a wonderful thing. where does that exist?
no where.
U.S. is no democracy. The people have 2 parties to choose from.
True democracy needs everyone to have a voice on every issue. It's possible.


And Q, capitalism does not allow for everyone to manipulate the system. Look at the poor and non-white in the u.s. they have much less of a chance (like .001% [fabricated % for effect]) than a white male. and in turn, that white male has much less chance than an already wealthy individual.

you yourself said captialism tends toward centralisation of resources and wealth. And to accrue capital, one needs capital.

[Qdrop]

true democracy is a wonderful thing. where does that exist?
no where.

to further quote and re-state Mr. Mueller:
"democracy is preferable to other forms of government but is dominated by special interests and, as a result, is "unlikely ever to achieve orderly deliberation, political equality, or wide and enlightened participation by the mass of the public.""

"...Democracy, on the other hand, is idealized and can never foster the
orderly, fair society to which its advocates aspire."


U.S. is no democracy.

not a perfect one, no.


The people have 2 parties to choose from.

that does suck ass.


True democracy needs everyone to have a voice on every issue. It's possible.

perhaps with the internet, that could be on the far off horizon...we shall see.


And Q, capitalism does not allow for everyone to manipulate the system. Look at the poor and non-white in the u.s. they have much less of a chance (like .001% [fabricated % for effect]) than a white male. and in turn, that white male has much less chance than an already wealthy individual.

you are speaking of racism, i take it.
that is a social issue, and has nothing to do with capitalism.
you can't blame capitalism for social racism's , or vice-versa.
they are intertwined, yes....but capitalism is not the cause.

i know this point will be contested...but we can elaborate as needed.


you yourself said captialism tends toward centralisation of resources and wealth. And to accrue capital, one needs capital.
fix the social racism through education and legislation.
same with gender inequalities, ect...
make the playing ground equal.....
then, it is up to the individual

do not accuse or punish capitalism for the social bigotry, blame the culture and enviroment in which it is fostered.

yes, there are those that through a variety of reasons, some just being dumb luck, will NEVER achieve wealth or high social status.
sucks.
tough shit.

you cannot disband a system for all, because some get shafted.

who REALLY is thinking of "the whole" here? you.....or me?

the ad hoc retort is "ha...MOST get shafted, qdrop! only a precious few attain wealth or even comfortable economic status.....and the rest feed on crumbs!!"

oh come off it....the majority of the counrtry is NOWHERE NEAR SQUALOR!
such a blatant liberal-induced social stereotype.

DO NOT start trying to pull up stats on this....
we have had far too many arguments on the validity and manipulation of numbers and statistics to further ones stance.

[phinkasaurus]

oh come off it....the majority of the counrtry is NOWHERE NEAR SQUALOR!
such a blatant liberal-induced social stereotype.

DO NOT start trying to pull up stats on this....
we have had far too many arguments on the validity and manipulation of numbers and statistics to further ones stance.

I agree education needs to be a high priority. But do you see how it's not, currently, a high priority? And in most straight capitalist gov't, it's not. Why? Because there is no immediate profit to be made. And this is indicative of all decisons made in a capitalist country. Healthcare, social programs, etc. Look at U.S. as a prime example. And i am sure you will retort with "but the u.s. is capitalism unchecked and unregulated". Fine. Give me an example of a country that has well regulated capitalism, and I'll show you a socialist economy.

And most of the country is not living in squalor. I agree. But a large chunk of the country lives check to check, with no real recourse if they get sick or can't generate income. I would venture a guess, since I can't use statistics, that a very small percent of the population is well off or even not struggling.

If you can look around you at the state this country is in and the state it's forcing on the rest of the world, and still say capitalism is the best solution, then I pity you. open your eyes, see past your opinions and surroundings.

[Qdrop]

I agree education needs to be a high priority. But do you see how it's not, currently, a high priority?-

yes, and i think THAT is the greatest threat to our society right now.


Give me an example of a country that has well regulated capitalism,

i don't believe there really is one.
but the US, being by far the largest, has the most evident signs of abuse that come with a capitalist system that is not regulated enough.


And most of the country is not living in squalor. I agree. But a large chunk of the country lives check to check, with no real recourse if they get sick or can't generate income.

there is a noticable chunk of such people in the country....i agree.

but i guess where we differ is the "how and why" of how they got to that situation.
you feel they are victims of society.

i feel that, while some are victims, most others have NO ONE to blaim but themselves.

and i can go "example for example" on that with you till our fingers fall off.


I would venture a guess, since I can't use statistics, that a very small percent of the population is well off or even not struggling.

rich or very well off?
very small minority of course.

comfortable within reason?
majority

struggling or living on the edge?
minority, but noticable.

empoverished?
small minority.


If you can look around you at the state this country is in and the state it's forcing on the rest of the world, and still say capitalism is the best solution, then I pity you.

see, i don't think there is one form of capitalism or one system of it that is perfect for ALL counrties.
you go with what works....
some societies may need differant elements for thier level of culture and industry.
socialist elements may be necessary and productive...
the US has social security and health care...that's socialism.

see, you unfairly accuse capitalism as the cause for virtually every global woe....
from the enviroment to poverty to war, ect.

that is such a callous and misguided jump. you simply are not educated on this subject to make such leaps....
you, and many others like you have your heart in the right place...
but you are running on sentiment and ideology....not facts and understanding.

it is not the system...it is those that run it that you must look to.

"but the system produces those people that run it so poorly, Q"

no, i disagree....evil and greed exists outside of economic systems, people....always have, and always will.

put your blame in the correct place.

[phinkasaurus]

no, i disagree....evil and greed exists outside of economic systems, people....always have, and always will.

how very nihislistic (sp?) of you.

what's the point then? If people always have been "evil and greed[y]" why even try to reghulatate capitalism or discuss which versions of socialism or partial socialism would work best for which country? If in the end, you think humanity is doomed to greed and evil, compition and fighting, why do you even discuss it?


that is such a callous and misguided jump. you simply are not educated on this subject to make such leaps....
you, and many others like you have your heart in the right place...
but you are running on sentiment and ideology....not facts and understanding.
i have facts, understanding and education on this subject. it just so happens, they don't fall in line with your opinions. That does not mean i do not have them. Thank you. I hope your heart moves to "the right place".


READ PARECON

[Qdrop]

how very nihislistic (sp?) of you.

what's the point then? If people always have been "evil and greed[y]" why even try to reghulatate capitalism or discuss which versions of socialism or partial socialism would work best for which country? If in the end, you think humanity is doomed to greed and evil, compition and fighting, why do you even discuss it?

whoa whoa...
i never said all that.
evil (as we have named it) does exist and always will......but it need not overrun society.
i have never said our humanity is doomed.
you are jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth.



READ PARECON
k...fine....GAAAWWWWWD!

[checkyourprez]

I agree education needs to be a high priority. But do you see how it's not, currently, a high priority? And in most straight capitalist gov't, it's not. Why? Because there is no immediate profit to be made. And this is indicative of all decisons made in a capitalist country.


I think japan can be looked at as an oppostie example to what your saying. Japan puts an extremely high emphasis on education and it is paying off for them. Excludding the fact of a bunch of bad real estate and banking decisions in the 90s their economy is second to only the US in many aspect. This is definatly because of the high value they place on education and technology. I dont have the exact numbers on me but just the other day in my international political economy class my teacher put up a stat that showed that for every million people in japan there are some odd 6000 scientists/engineers compaired to the US at 3000 and everyone else below that. This country will slowly decline (as it already is) if we dont make it a president to push education on our young people.

[SobaViolence]

as long as i have the freedom to an open, bloody revolution, i don`t care.

[Ace42]

Excludding the fact of a bunch of bad real estate and banking decisions in the 90s their economy is second to only the US in many aspect.

In the respect that they have been in a recession for the last decade?

[Whois]

as long as i have the freedom to an open, bloody revolution, i don`t care.

That's more like it... (y)

[checkyourprez]

In the respect that they have been in a recession for the last decade?


yes. their economy is shaky right now. but with such a small country having to import so much stuff compaired to the US and many other larger countries with wealths of natural resources they are doing very well for themsevles. i think education is a big factor in it.