Brain-Damaged Woman's Feeding Tube Removed

[cookiepuss]

Brain-Damaged Woman's Feeding Tube Removed

By MITCH STACY, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Doctors removed Terri Schiavo's feeding tube Friday despite an extraordinary, last-minute push by Republicans on Capitol Hill to use the subpoena powers of Congress to save the severely brain-damaged woman.

It is expected that it will take one to two weeks for Schiavo, 41, to die, provided no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted. Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said his client was at his wife's side shortly after the tube was removed.

The tube has twice been disconnected in the past, but was re-inserted within days in both cases. Similar appeals are under way in the current case.

The latest removal came amid a flurry of maneuvering by Schiavo's parents, state lawmakers and Congress to keep her alive. Committees in the Republican-controlled Congress issued subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband, and her caregivers demanding that they appear at hearings in the coming weeks.

full article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050318/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_68)

This is stupid. :mad: It makes me want to draw up a will right now to be sure that no ever tries to keep me alive if I become brain damaged!

[ms.peachy]

What a fucking circus.

[yeahwho]

They want to keep her alive until the Social Security crisis is over.

[K-nowledge]

....or until Social Security runs out.

[infidel]

This is stupid. :mad: It makes me want to draw up a will right now to be sure that no ever tries to keep me alive if I become brain damaged!
Apparently just sending an email out to several people is expressing your wishes is good enough as long as it came from your email address and is dated far enough back in the past.

Think they would be going though this argument on keeping her alive if she was black?

[Johnny McPissed]

Brain damaged is a bit of an understatement...the chick is brain dead...being kept alive by SCIENCE! I thought right wingers refused to accept science.... :rolleyes:


Unplug her and see if "god" can save or cure her! Don't let satan and science keep her alive!

[baltogrl71]

It is amazing how selfish people are, I bet if you asked them what they would want for themselvs if they were in her shoes, they would want to die. What reason do they have to want to keep torturing their daughter, do they think she can recover somehow? I don't understand.

[Rosie Cotton]

Unplug her and see if "god" can save or cure her! Don't let satan and science keep her alive!
Haha, if you ever talk to a typical right-winger about euthanasia, they will tell you they are against it because God is the one who gets to choose when you die. But if a woman's heart stops beating and she has to spend the next fifteen years on life support, it's somehow different? In that case God's opinion is moot? I still don't get it.

[little j]

so what do you all think about the fed. government stepping in to replace her feeding tubes?

[racer5.0stang]

Why do they have to remove her feeding tube and make her starve to death?

Couldn't they find some other means to kill her?

That is the intent.

[little j]

she's not alive in the first place

why keep her body alive when her mind is already dead?

[racer5.0stang]

she's not alive in the first place

why keep her body alive when her mind is already dead?


I was under the impression that the feeding tube was the only thing hooked to her. Meaning that her body was keeping itself alive, but had the inability to feed itself. If that is the case, she is not brain dead.

[little j]

she has been severely brain damaged for the past 15 years

at any rate i dont think the federal government should interfere.

her husband is her guardian.

[Qdrop]

the thing is....while i support people's right to die and have no problem with assisted suicides (your life, your decision....libertarian all the way).
i have an issue when it comes to someone trying to make that decision for someone else who cannot voice thier opinion and has done no harm to society to merit death..
..it's difficult to pick a side.

while they point to past emails, they really have no concrete wording from her in regards to her wishes if such a circumstance arose.
i'm not sure how one man can be appointed guardian and make a decision on someone else who is part of society.
who is he to decide?

that debate can go on for sometime (in my own head as well), but it's moot....
the gov't gave him the power to make such a decision...it is a judicial decision that has been in effect for sometime.

the disgusting part here, is what the republican are doing: exploiting it for thier own platform.
disgusting.

they are using a biased congress(republican) to wage a war on a previously passed (congress too!) judicial decision....
which is, in itself, illegal and unconstitutional!

i thought republican were strict constitutionalists!!??

oh, i see...they are unless something goes against thier religious faith...then that supercedes ALL!!

if you want to challange a judicial ruling...you do it in the courts!
you cannot stage an apparent Coo on the judicial branch by passing an isolated bill through a biased congress and president.
this is judicial assassination....
an ABUSE OF POWER!!

all just to get on their moral highhorses, and grandstand thier morals to the country....like bullies...
even if they have to circumvent the constitution to do so.....

fuckin GOP....

[ASsman]

It's about time.

[Qdrop]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0321/p01s03-uspo.html

the republican congress and bush pushed a bill through that would force the issue into Federal courts....over the Florida state court's standing ruling.

funny, i though the republicans were "all about state rights and state courts...
leave big gov't out of it."

oh, i see......that is unless they don't like what the state courts rulings are...
yeah....

"if it's about GOD, then we we (the GOP) will have the final say, no matter what!!"

[little j]

the thing is....while i support people's right to die and have no problem with assisted suicides (your life, your decision....libertarian all the way).
i have an issue when it comes to someone trying to make that decision for someone else who cannot voice thier opinion and has done no harm to society to merit death..
..it's difficult to pick a side.

while they point to past emails, they really have no concrete wording from her in regards to her wishes if such a circumstance arose.
i'm not sure how one man can be appointed guardian and make a decision on someone else who is part of society.
who is he to decide?

that debate can go on for sometime (in my own head as well), but it's moot....
the gov't gave him the power to make such a decision...it is a judicial decision that has been in effect for sometime.

the disgusting part here, is what the republican are doing: exploiting it for thier own platform.
disgusting.

they are using a biased congress(republican) to wage a war on a previously passed (congress too!) judicial decision....
which is, in itself, illegal and unconstitutional!

i thought republican were strict constitutionalists!!??

oh, i see...they are unless something goes against thier religious faith...then that supercedes ALL!!

if you want to challange a judicial ruling...you do it in the courts!
you cannot stage an apparent Coo on the judicial branch by passing an isolated bill through a biased congress and president.
this is judicial assassination....
an ABUSE OF POWER!!

all just to get on their moral highhorses, and grandstand thier morals to the country....like bullies...
even if they have to circumvent the constitution to do so.....

fuckin GOP....

im with ya.

and i dont know where i stand on the issue of the government getting involved.
i dont know if anyone has a "right" to decide whether someone lives or dies.

the GOP has been making me angry/sick over this case.

its very sad though.

[racer5.0stang]

i have an issue when it comes to someone trying to make that decision for someone else who cannot voice thier opinion and has done no harm to society to merit death..
..it's difficult to pick a side.

while they point to past emails, they really have no concrete wording from her in regards to her wishes if such a circumstance arose.
i'm not sure how one man can be appointed guardian and make a decision on someone else who is part of society.
who is he to decide?

You say this but you are pro abortion.

Go figure.

[Qdrop]

You say this but you are pro abortion.

Go figure.

fetus= not a member of society, thus not subject to societies laws and ethics.

brain damaged woman = member of society, thus subject to societies laws and ethics.

figured.
;)

[ProfJIM]

What a fucking circus.

[abcdefz]

Federal court to look at case today (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/21/schiavo/index.html)

[Whois]

Floriduh needs her alive to run for Congress in 2006, that and the average IQ would drop 15 points if she died.

[racer5.0stang]

fetus= not a member of society, thus not subject to societies laws and ethics.

brain damaged woman = member of society, thus subject to societies laws and ethics.

figured.
;)


fetus--inability to express own opinion

brain damaged woman--inability to express own opinion

I'm starting to see a pattern.

[Qdrop]

fetus--inability to express own opinion

brain damaged woman--inability to express own opinion

I'm starting to see a pattern.

read, fucker, read!!

fetus--inability to express own opinion


fetus= not a member of society, thus not subject to societies laws and ethics.

making your point moot. IMO.

[Qdrop]

the other point that few people are mentioning is WHY she is braindead.....

she was a chronic bulimic...so much so that her potassium levels dropped to fatal levels and she had a heart attack.....thus the pronounced brain damage.

she did this to herself.
it wasn't an auto accident or anything.

[racer5.0stang]

read, fucker, read!!



making your point moot. IMO.


Either way, the one that is most affected does not have a choice in the matter.

[D_Raay]

Maybe this is some covert attempt propagated by Republicans because they are pissed off at Clint Eastwood? Surely there are other cases out there similar to this one? Why the circus and endless news time for this one woman?

[cookiepuss]

the other point that few people are mentioning is WHY she is braindead.....

she was a chronic bulimic...so much so that her potassium levels dropped to fatal levels and she had a heart attack.....thus the pronounced brain damage.

she did this to herself.
it wasn't an auto accident or anything.

Thanks. I was wondering and you're right, the back ground on her condition hasn't been publicised. Seems to me she must have had some idea that eating disorders are bad for your health and that she was tamerping with her life. So if she wanted to be on life support you'd think she would have left clear instructions. oh well. too late now.

[yeahwho]

Tom Delay! WTF! He's leading this bill after dodging the cameras the past few weeks! What a joke. This is an excellent distraction from the fact that nearly everyone he's ever been politically involved with is under indictment (or soon to be) for corruption. Why else would he be front-and-center for the cameras after literally weeks of dodging them?

He likely views the Schiavo crisis as providing him with some much needed cover from the press over his influence-peddling activities.

Kill her, don't kill her, just do something so I don't have to hear about it anymore.

[Rosie Cotton]

she was a chronic bulimic...so much so that her potassium levels dropped to fatal levels and she had a heart attack.....thus the pronounced brain damage.
I find it a bit ironic that she is in this condition due to an eating disorder and the only thing keeping her alive is a feeding tube.

This is the third time that the tube has been removed and reinserted. This can't be good for someone in her condition.

[yeahwho]

I have to agree 100% with this local yokel on our ABC TV News affiliate up here in SeaTown.....Read (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm) away if you please.

[Qdrop]

I have to agree 100% with this local yokel on our ABC TV News affiliate up here in SeaTown.....Read (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm) away if you please.

yep, that's my stance exactly.

[racer5.0stang]

I have to agree 100% with this local yokel on our ABC TV News affiliate up here in SeaTown.....Read (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm) away if you please.


It was her parents that got the President and Congress involved to keep her "alive".

[little j]

her parents need to let go and let god

[Qdrop]

This just in:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html

Judge denies bid to restore Schiavo's feeding tube

Attorneys for parents petition appellate court

[D_Raay]

I have to agree 100% with this local yokel on our ABC TV News affiliate up here in SeaTown.....Read (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm) away if you please.
Sounds like a man who has had enough of the hypocrisy...

Can you blame him?

[ASsman]

GOD!#W#!@ !@!

[ASsman]

I've just bothered to read up on this shit hole of an "issue". Gotta love the government.

[yeahwho]

I know this story was kind of rushed, many writers with much more restraint than myself are doing a fine job of avoiding the obvious........Because,

If it had been mine I'm quite sure I couldn't have resisted the urge to title it "If She Only Had a Brain.."

[ASsman]

Fucking what's his face, "AIDS through tears boy" (hell if I bother to learn his name) he was all bitching and moaning about how he thought (from much video footage) that she was not a vegetable. I mean, hell if he discovered a new way to contract AIDS, we should listen to him.

[JBernas]

Why do they have to remove her feeding tube and make her starve to death?

Couldn't they find some other means to kill her?

That is the intent.

I agree that ending her life in other ways (lethal injection, etc.) would be more humane morally, but unfortunately, illegal. The courts consider the feeding tube as 'artificial support' and legally, they can cease it like they would with ventillators, heart machines, etc....it's just that those on more 'conventional' life support pass away much quicker. Who's to say that she's 'suffering' though? If she's as brain damaged as doctor's say she is, she's not even aware of being alive and her surroundings anyway.....can she even feel hunger/thirst?

This has gone on way too long IMO. I plan on getting my wishes on paper. I feel sick that this has gotten to the level that it has....let the woman pass in peace.

[Qdrop]

I agree that ending her life in other ways (lethal injection, etc.) would be more humane morally, ....

.. Who's to say that she's 'suffering' though? If she's as brain damaged as doctor's say she is, she's not even aware of being alive and her surroundings anyway.....can she even feel hunger/thirst?



no, she can't. dozens of nuerologists have assured the media and public that the braindamage is so severe, there is no sense of self, no conscience,....no pain or stimulus felt.

[ASsman]

But, but, that guy said on the telly, that congressman or senator, or whatever the fuck .

He's seen footage, and he concluded she is not a complete vegetable.

[Qdrop]

But, but, that guy said on the telly, that congressman or senator, or whatever the fuck .

He's seen footage, and he concluded she is not a complete vegetable.

yeah i know..
the family edited that 2 hour home video down to a 2 min segment (which the "stock footage" you keep seeing) and keep pushing it around the media (and the media obliges)....simply because it apprears as if she is smiling and reacting to her mother.

specialists who have seen the video and have experiance with such cases can plainly see this is not the case...

she makes no eye contact..nor does she follow her mother around the room.
the "smiling" is an involuntary response (a random muscle spasm) as she has NO ability to percieve or react to outside stimuli.
she would have the same "reaction" to anyone or anything....or nothing.
because there was NO "reaction".

it's smoke and mirrors.

[D_Raay]

But, but, that guy said on the telly, that congressman or senator, or whatever the fuck .

He's seen footage, and he concluded she is not a complete vegetable.
Yeah, Dr. Bill Frist. The same who apparently did not know you can't get AIDS from tears or saliva.

[ASsman]

Hehehe, moneyshot.

[yeahwho]

Does anyone know if any of her organs will be donated to save somebody else's life?

Or does that go against "Gods Will?"

[Funkaloyd]

Would they be any good after weeks without food?

[Whois]

Hahahaha...

The Freepers are frothing at the mouth to go in and "Git'er done" - IOW send in the National Guard/State Police or go themselves if needed to restore the feeding tube.

Please...PLEASE do it, we're lacking in entertainment.

[Rosie Cotton]

Does anyone know if any of her organs will be donated to save somebody else's life?

Or does that go against "Gods Will?"
I actually know quite a few people who believe that organ donation is against god's will. And I am related to about half of them.

Yeah, they don't knowI checked the donor box. I didn't feel like sitting through yet another sermon.

[yeahwho]

Tom DeLay argued today at a conservative conference that God sent Terri Schiavo to reveal the attack on conservatives in America.

"One thing that God has brought to us is Terri Schiavo, to help elevate the visibility of what's going on in America," said DeLay, R-Texas.

"This is exactly the issue that's going on in America, the attacks against the conservative movement, against me and against many others."

Govenor Jeb searched out an MD (http://www.cbhd.org/aboutcbhd/staff/cheshire.htm) to do the "InsaneNeoCon's" bidding. He surely subscribes to the Christians Medical & Dental Assc. (http://www.cmdahome.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=3181253540&CONTEXT=cat&cat=100011)

Usually this sort of story is pretty easy to avoid, but when the political shills come out in large numbers because somebody didn't write a living will, this is out of the bubble and into lala land! No living will? How about a living hell?

Plus today the police restrained a few avid right to lifers desperately trying to give Schaivo a glass of water. If they would of made it in and given it to her, she would of drowned.

Which part of this whole affair constitutes this much investigation? Why the fuck did we (media, politicians) not give this much consideration to invading Iraq before going in bombing gunning maiming killing thousands?

[ASsman]

God..

[Rosie Cotton]

Her parents are saying that she tried to mouth the words "I want to live". Now, I really do feel sorry for them. I know it must be difficult to have a child in that situation. But that's just disgusting. It's a cheap ploy to tug on people's heartstrings.

[Ace42]

Her parents are saying that she tried to mouth the words "I want to live".

Clearly she was saying "I want DO live" - that she wanted a copy of a live appearance of Des O'Connor playing on LP as they disconnected her feeding tube. And quite rightly too, who wouldn't wantto bow out to the harmonious melodies of that great crooner?

Presumably song two off of the A side of his 1980 album "Remember Romance"
- Should've never let her go.

http://www.des-oconnor.com/albums/alb19a.htm

(C) www.des-oconnor.com

(Well, she WAS brain-damaged...)

[Rosie Cotton]

Clearly she was saying "I want DO live" - that she wanted a copy of a live appearance of Des O'Connor playing on LP as the disconnected her feeding tube. And quite rightly too, who wouldn't wantto bow out to the harmonious melodies of that great crooner?

Presumably song two off of the A side of his 1980 album "Remember Romance"
- Should've never let her go.

http://www.des-oconnor.com/albums/alb19a.htm

(C) www.des-oconnor.com
Pffft, when you said you'd made a callous comment I thought it was gonna be much worse. You're slacking.

[Ace42]

Pffft, when you said you'd made a callous comment I thought it was gonna be much worse. You're slacking.

Obviously you have never heard the works of Mr O'Connor. Besides, The Onion already beat me to the "All yanks in southern states are brain-damaged" punchline.

[Rosie Cotton]

True.


And I resent the "brain-damaged Southerners" joke.

[Rosie Cotton]

I saw a scan of her brain on TV. The whole thing was blue, meaning there is no blood flow to her brain.

[Ali]

Are you sure that wasn't GWB's brain.

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

While on the subject of GW and the Right to Die:
The interference by the White House in the case of Terri Schiavo - the woman at the center of America's latest right-to-die controversy - marks another milestone in President Bush's campaign for faith over fact. More concerned with the wonder of miracles than Schiavo's 15-year irreversible vegetative state, Bush and his allies have blithely overturned multiple court decisions to maintain artificial feeding and let evangelical populism triumph over medical opinion. OK, OK Common Dreams (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0322-25.htm) is a bit rabidly liberal sometimes, but you get the point, right?

And look who's NOT Backing Bush for once!Tony Blair (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election/story/0,15803,1443906,00.html) chose a faith audience in south London yesterday to proclaim his belief that he was opposed to US-style faith politics in British public life.

The prime minister, battered by Tory tabloid pressures on abortion, insisted: "I do not want to end up with an American-style of politics with us all going out there beating our chest about our faith.

"Politics and religion - it is not that they do not have a lot in common, but if it ends up being used in the political process, I think that is a bit unhealthy." Jeez, you'd think there was an election coming, or something.

In language similar to a speech he gave to an almost identical audience exactly four years ago, just before the 2001 general election campaign, Mr Blair said he valued Christian and other religious groups' contributions to voluntary services and called on them to get still more involved.

"I would like to see you play a bigger not a lesser role in the future," he told them.

"I say this because of the visible, tangible difference you are making for the better in our society for so many people. That is the proof of your faith in action in the service of others."

The most overtly religious prime minister for more than a century was wildly cheered by the enthusiastic audience, pleased to feel wanted in what they see as an indifferent or hostile society. sickening

[RobMoney]

Life, Liberty, and the persuit of happiness?


not in George W's America....you'll do what we say!

[ASsman]

I do believe the courts have finally ruled in the husbands favor.

Although, why the fuck did he have to go through this ordeal.

[yeahwho]

So, watch for the news of Terri dying on Good Friday, and on Easter Sunday she wakes up on the embalming table, chattering like a magpie. On Monday the Pope declares her a Saint and the honorary title of "FemChrist."

During the next month, all Muslims convert to Catholicism or Judaism and the world is at Peace. And gasoline will cost $1.00 a gallon.

[ASsman]

fuck that.

[WhoMoi?]

This is stupid. :mad: It makes me want to draw up a will right now to be sure that no ever tries to keep me alive if I become brain damaged!

I wouldn't say that if I were you. There are so many different degrees and types of brain injury and many brain injured people live fulfilling lives. I'm sure you've seen or maybe even spoken to at least one person with a brain injury and not even known they had one.

That is the problem I have with this Shiavo thing...where do you draw the line? When do you determine whether a life is worth living or not? As I mentioned in another thread about this in BF...I've worked with many brain-injured people at or below Terri's level of functioning, and it's really unfortunate that you often don't know what - or how much - they're thinking. I can understand the "right to die" in a situation where a patient has been in a coma state for ten years, where they have no awareness of their surroundings whatsoever; but that's not the case here. In the footage they show of her, she is responding to her mother with facial expressions, showing that she has at least some level of awareness and is reciprocating something to people communicating with her. I'm not saying that she wants to live her life or doesn't, I don't know that; but I don't think that in the case of someone who is in her state and isn't able to communicate her wishes, that that should be for anyone else to decide. If she could communicate it, or there was documentation of her pre-injury wish to not be tube-fed, I would have no problem with the decision that's been made.

The other thing that bothers me is that the husband seems sketchy. He denied her any therapy as soon as she'd had her injury. That is really, really weird and pretty much unheard of. It is unbelievable how much progress a lot of brain-injured people can make with therapy in a pretty short amount of time (if it is given soon after the injury occurs), so she could have been functioning a much higher level than she is now had she been allowed to get occupational, physical, speech/language therapy, etc. Or she might not have...you never know. But not even allowing her to have an attempt at progress is really a red flag to me. Also, his refusal to allow an MRI is also weird to me; why not allow it if you are confident about the results?? I've heard that he stands to get a significant amount of money from a life insurance policy; I don't know how true that is though.

I was hesitant to post about this in the political forum because I'm not conservative politically, and I was sure people would assume I was from my view on this matter. For the record, my view has nothing to do with politics; it just comes from having worked, communicated, and developed relationships with people with issues similar to Terri's. I'm trying to let people know that the reason there is controversy about this is NOT just because of people's opinion of the "right to die" in general, but also because of the nature of this particular case.

[Pres Zount]

You put the feeding tube in
You take the feeding tube out
You put the feeding tube in and you shake it all about

[ASsman]

HAhahaha, good God.

Why didn't I think about that before hand. Really, what an asshole.

You sir shant be saved.

[ericg]

www.LewRockwell.com :Politics Is Anti-Life.

[infidel]

Some of the wacko fundamentalists are already calling the Florida judge who voted for the tube removed Pontus Pilot and Terri Jesus.
Man can these people get any more fucked up?

[Qdrop]

In the footage they show of her, she is responding to her mother with facial expressions, showing that she has at least some level of awareness and is reciprocating something to people communicating with her.

yes, you too fell for the cunning ruse that the parents pulled (and the media obliged with).

numerous nuerologists have stated that that "conspicuously edited" 6 min segment was picked out and shown just for THAT reason: because it APPREARED that she was responding....when, in fact, it was smoke and mirrors.

those movement she made were indifferant than any she had made in the previous 6 hours of footage on that tape when no one was talking to her.
her eyes do not follow her mother....she actually shows no apparent clue of consciouse thought or interactivity.
and her "blinking reaction" is based in her brainstem (along with her heart rate, breathing, and other basic organ function)....this is NOT a sign of conscience.

[Qdrop]

www.airamericaradio.com

Schiavo Protester A Child Rapist

The father of a 10-year-old boy arrested for trying to bring water to Terri Schiavo is a convicted child rapist wanted for absconding from the sexual predator registration program.
-----------

what a good christian.

check out the site for the links.

[ASsman]

Dude, I'm starting a pool. 20$ a piece.

[WhoMoi?]

yes, you too fell for the cunning ruse that the parents pulled (and the media obliged with).

numerous nuerologists have stated that that "conspicuously edited" 6 min segment was picked out and shown just for THAT reason: because it APPREARED that she was responding....when, in fact, it was smoke and mirrors.

those movement she made were indifferant than any she had made in the previous 6 hours of footage on that tape when no one was talking to her.
her eyes do not follow her mother....she actually shows no apparent clue of consciouse thought or interactivity.
and her "blinking reaction" is based in her brainstem (along with her heart rate, breathing, and other basic organ function)....this is NOT a sign of conscience.

I think you mean "consciousness?"
Do you have any links to articles where neurologists have talked about this? I'd be interested to read them, because that is the only footage they've shown of her on TV. It probably won't change my opinion though, since as I said before, I've done speech/language therapy with people at an even less functional level than Terri, and still probably would not support ending their lives if they were only on a feeding tube.
Only if they had been in a coma state for years would it even cross my mind, and she's clearly not in a coma state.
It's pretty obvious that her blinking is a non-intentional action, since it's so frequent. I don't think anyone was trying to "fool" anyone about that.
As I think I said before, just because she doesn't "show" any indication of conscious thought does not mean she has none. It might help if the husband actually allowed the MRI to show that. That is the tricky thing with people with TBI, strokes, etc...based upon response alone, you truly don't know what is going on in there in many cases.
I don't think it's necessary to talk about her parents like they are evil people with a "cunning ruse" in mind. They just want what they think is right for their daughter. Quality of life is a very subjective term and just because some people think "I'd never want to live like that," in my opinion, does not give them the right to make that decision for this woman. And though the husband claims that it was her choice not to live like that, for the reasons I've stated in my last post, I really question his credibility and motives in this situation.

[EN[i]GMA]

www.LewRockwell.com :Politics Is Anti-Life.

A Constitutionalist that likes Lew Rockwell?

Now I've seen everything.

[ASsman]

She isn't conscious AFAIK. She simply responds to stimuli, lower brain functions etc.

[Dephective~]

Gah, although I'm sure most of the people here wil argue with me, but due to my hardcore christian background I must say that every second that tube is disconnected Micheal Schiavo gets guiltyer (New word! :p )
Yes, yes, mercy killing, blah, blah, it's still wrong!

D~

[Qdrop]

I think you mean "consciousness?"

no, i didn't.

okay....yes i did.


Do you have any links to articles where neurologists have talked about this? I'd be interested to read them, because that is the only footage they've shown of her on TV.

i was parapharasing from interviews i saw on the Today show and on sunday morning political shows, ect...

http://www.aclj.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=1381

".....Gov. Jeb Bush and the state social services agency filed a petition to take custody of Schiavo and, presumably, reconnect her feeding tube. It cites new allegations of neglect and challenges Schiavo's diagnosis as being in a persistent vegetative state. The request is based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state who observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination. "

he didn't even conduct an exam? how is he credible?
he's not.....look:

"The neurologist, William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, is a bioethicist who is also an active member in Christian organizations, including two whose leaders have spoken out against the tube's removal. "

biased much?

"Ronald Cranford of the University of Minnesota, a neurologist who was among those who made a previous diagnosis of Schiavo, said "there isn't a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won't find her in a vegetative state."



It probably won't change my opinion though, since as I said before, I've done speech/language therapy with people at an even less functional level than Terri,

i don't see how. she has virtually no higher brain function....no activity. pretty much just brainstem activity only.
she has the intelligance comparable to an ameoba right now.
that's no way to live.


Only if they had been in a coma state for years would it even cross my mind, and she's clearly not in a coma state.

how is this any better?


It's pretty obvious that her blinking is a non-intentional action, since it's so frequent. I don't think anyone was trying to "fool" anyone about that.
not in an entirely malicious sense.....
but they are (for obvious reasons) extremely biased and desperate....
and just like religion....people believe want they want to believe and can convince themselves of alot of things.


As I think I said before, just because she doesn't "show" any indication of conscious thought does not mean she has none. It might help if the husband actually allowed the MRI to show that.

that "MRI" incident is kind of out of context ....
they have done brainscans...and the pics are on the net...
they show nothing by dead grey matter in her cerbrum and cerebellum....
and braincells don't regenerate.


I don't think it's necessary to talk about her parents like they are evil people with a "cunning ruse" in mind. They just want what they think is right for their daughter.

they are desparate and hopelessly too close to the matter to make a sound rational judgment...
they are operating on pure emotion.


Quality of life is a very subjective term and just because some people think "I'd never want to live like that," in my opinion, does not give them the right to make that decision for this woman.

i agree....that is a dicey area for me as well.


And though the husband claims that it was her choice not to live like that, for the reasons I've stated in my last post, I really question his credibility and motives in this situation.
it's all speculation.

[ms.peachy]

The most comprehensive treatment of this issue I have found is, believe it or not, on wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo)

Here's the bit that clinched it for me:

"Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been completely destroyed (and has been replaced by cerebrospinal fluid), and there is also damage to the lower brain and brain stem, which controls functions such as breathing and swallowing, due to the lack of oxygen her brain suffered after her heart attack in 1990.

Dr. Ron Cranford, a neurologist at the University of Minnesota, assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered assessment. He was quoted in Florida Today as saying "[Schiavo] has no electrical activity in her cerebral cortex on an EEG (electroencephalogram), and a CT (computerized tomography) scan showed massive atrophy in that region."

Three Florida neurologists viewed 12 of Schiavo's computed tomography scans on March 22. After viewing the scans, Dr. Leon Prockop (a professor and former chairman of neurology at the University of South Florida's College of Medicine) was quoted by the Sun-Sentinel as saying that Schiavo's is the "most severe brain damage as I've ever seen." Dr. Walter Bradley, the chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, said that he "doubts there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain."

In 2002, a trial was held to determine whether or not any new therapy treatments would help Schiavo restore any cognitive function. A new CAT scan was done, and showed severe cerebral atrophy. An EEG showed no measurable brain activity.

Five doctors were selected to provide their expert opinions to the trial: two by Schiavo's parents, two by Michael Schiavo, and one by the court. These five doctors examined Terri Schiavo's medical records, brain scans, the videos, and Mrs. Schiavo herself. The physicians were divided in their conclusions. The two doctors selected by Schiavo's parents (one of whom was a radiologist, not a neurologist; the other of whom made several claims about therapies supposedly developed by him which the court found spurious) supported their conclusion; the two doctors selected by Schiavo's husband and the doctor appointed by the court supported Mr. Schiavo's position. Greer ruled with the latter that Mrs. Schiavo was in a PVS and was beyond hope of significant improvement."




Whomoi's claims that the husband 'seems sketchy' and didn't try to get her help are unfounded. From the same article:

"Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care."


And here's some information about those videotapes, too. (http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html)

[ASsman]

Hmmm, well I think she is still able to repeat sounds, and stuff like that. Just not think like we think. Just respond to things around her.

[Qdrop]

Hmmm, well I think she is still able to repeat sounds, and stuff like that. Just not think like we think. Just respond to things around her.

no, she can't, man.

she does not "speak", she does not react to stimuli in any conscious sense.
she is likable to an ameoba as far as brain activity.
period.

[ASsman]

My point stands. You are restating what I believe. And what seems to be true. And thats what I mean by "think", higher brain functions...etc. What I didn't know is that her brain stem and lower brain were damaged aswell. So.... yah that only puts the nails on the coffin.

[Qdrop]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/

Schiavo's husband plans autopsy
Parents say they, too, welcome it once Terri Schiavo passes away

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - As Terri Schiavo began her 12th day without food or water on Tuesday, the feud between the brain-damaged woman's parents and husband escalated when the latter requested an autopsy once she dies in order to prove that she could not have recovered.

George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy before her remains are cremated.

He said that Michael Schiavo, who has convinced courts that his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances, wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage.

“We didn’t think it was appropriate to talk about an autopsy prior to Mrs. Schiavo’s death,” Felos told reporters Monday, "but because claims have been made by, I guess, opponents of carrying out her wishes that there was some motive behind the cremation of Mrs. Schiavo we felt it was necessary to make that announcement today.”

Disagreement over the planned cremation rather than the full burial demanded by Schiavo’s Roman Catholic parents has been a subplot to the long legal battle.

An attorney for Schiavo’s parents, David Gibbs III, said her family also wants an autopsy. “We would certainly support and encourage an autopsy to be done, with all the unanswered questions,” Gibbs said.

[WhoMoi?]

Whomoi's claims that the husband 'seems sketchy' and didn't try to get her help are unfounded. From the same article:

"Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care."


And here's some information about those videotapes, too. (http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html)

Unfounded??? Yeah I made that up for fun.
It was reported on some news show I was watching last weekend, I think it might have been Weekend Today.
I never said he didn't try to get her "help;" be specific. His berating of nurses for more attention for his wife has nothing to do with whether he allowed therapy to occur or not. Nurses don't provide PT, OT, or speech/language therapy .

[ASsman]

Heh, I thought that article was going to say. "To prove that something could have been done", like tying "witches" to stones and throwing them in the river. Those who survive are guilty.

[WhoMoi?]

i don't see how. she has virtually no higher brain function....no activity. pretty much just brainstem activity only.
she has the intelligance comparable to an ameoba right now.
that's no way to live.

If there was brainstem activity only, she would be in a coma.
Who cares if her intelligence is comparable to an amoeba??? That means she should be killed? I really don't think level of intelligence should ever be grounds for ending someone's life, no matter what that level is. Not to mention that it's illegal to starve a dog or cat, but it's okay to starve her for some reason. That's something I really don't understand.
As for you not seeing how speech/language therapy is done with patients at her level...there are so many facets to and levels of communication. "Virtually no" higher brain function is not enough to rule out all types or degrees of communication. People can communicate via vocalizations (non-linguistic vocal noises), facial movements, eye gaze, finger movements, etc....there are so many possibilities dependent on the case. And when I say they can communicate via these means, what they are communicating could be as simple as an acknowledgement of someone's presence, or could have something more meaningful behind it.
More importantly, it's not all about the output...it's about what they take in. Do we know whether she feels some comfort from her loved ones' words, tone of voice, touch? No. In my opinion, if there's any doubt about that, another person shouldn't be allowed to end her life without documentation that that was her prior wish.

how is this any better?

I don't know if it is "better" for her. But it might be, since she has at least some level of awareness of her surroundings, as opposed to someone in a coma state. And shouldn't that be enough to make us think twice for agreeing with this type of decision?


they are desparate and hopelessly too close to the matter to make a sound rational judgment...
they are operating on pure emotion.

So their view is irrational and the husband's is rational? Both are obviously close to the matter...why is the parents' view the irrational one?
And aren't the people closest to the person the exact ones who should be making the judgment?
I just think, why couldn't they have let her live and let her parents care for her? They are obviously willing to do it and want for that to happen.

However, I will say that at this point, it is sort of ridiculous that her parents are still trying to get her tube put back in.

I really hope that people's usual political views aren't directly influencing their opinions on this matter. I know that mine aren't. I think it's sad that people are jumping on the bandwagon of, yeah it's okay to end her life because her cortical activity is xyz, when really no one knows if that's truly what she wanted.

My biggest fear about the whole thing is the precedent that's been set by this case. Where do you draw the line of who gets to live and who gets to die? There is no way to make clear cut regulations about this that would address every situation, because injuries to the brain have such varied effects, and I think that is going to cause a lot of problems.

[infidel]

Dude, I'm starting a pool. 20$ a piece.
So what will be the fundamentalist's interpretation if Terri dies on April Fools Day?

A really bad Terri website http://durrrrr.blogspot.com/

don't shoot me if you click it and are offended

[Whois]

So...how long till after she is dead will beatification occur?

I can see it now, 20 years down the road it's Saint Terri!

[Whois]

So what will be the fundamentalist's interpretation if Terri dies on April Fools Day?

A really bad Terri website http://durrrrr.blogspot.com/2005/03/mmmmmnegh.html

don't shoot me if you click it and are offended

I was SOOO offended I laughed.

That was great...

[STANKY808]

... Also, his refusal to allow an MRI is also weird to me; why not allow it if you are confident about the results??..

How bout this?
"Among other things, Dr. Cranford's reply addresses the questions about additional scan techniques:
An MRI was never recommended because, in this case and other patients in a permanent vegetative state, the CT scans were more than adequate to demonstrate the extremely severe atrophy of the cerebral hemispheres, and an MRI would add nothing of significance to what we see on the CT scans. Plus the MRI is contraindicated because of the intrathalamic stimulators implanted in Terri's brain. A PET scan was never done in this case because it was never needed. The classic clinical signs on examination, the CT scans, and the flat EEG's were more than adequate to diagnose PVS to the highest degree of medical certainty."


Are you a doctor? What capacity do you work in with the brain injured?


And by the way, what the courts have decided is that based on the evidence, Teri's wish would be to have her life terminated.

[ASsman]

Where's the Terminator when you need him.

[yeahwho]

You know it's too bad it's not January. George W. could wheel Terry Schiavo into the chambers with a spot right next to Delay for the State of the Union speech. The parents could be there with her and the camera could pan over them as GWB blathered on about less goverment intrusion. This way he could avoid all talk about Iraq.......oh wait, nevermind he already managed to do trhat with social security.

[WhoMoi?]

How bout this?
"Among other things, Dr. Cranford's reply addresses the questions about additional scan techniques:
An MRI was never recommended because, in this case and other patients in a permanent vegetative state, the CT scans were more than adequate to demonstrate the extremely severe atrophy of the cerebral hemispheres, and an MRI would add nothing of significance to what we see on the CT scans. Plus the MRI is contraindicated because of the intrathalamic stimulators implanted in Terri's brain. A PET scan was never done in this case because it was never needed. The classic clinical signs on examination, the CT scans, and the flat EEG's were more than adequate to diagnose PVS to the highest degree of medical certainty."
That makes more sense then. I wasn't aware about the intrathalamic stimulators. All I knew was that from news reports, he was not allowing an MRI. They didn't mention that it was contraindicated and that that could be why he wasn't allowing it.

Are you a doctor? What capacity do you work in with the brain injured?
Speech/language pathologist. I've done therapy with many adults with TBI and CVAs in the past, and now work with some kids with TBI in schools.

And by the way, what the courts have decided is that based on the evidence, Teri's wish would be to have her life terminated.
Right. I still don't see how this was determined given no premorbid documentation of this by Terri. And I don't think that in the future, the courts should be able to make that type of decision without premorbid documentation of the patient's wishes.

[infidel]

I still don't see how this was determined given no premorbid documentation of this by Terri. And I don't think that in the future, the courts should be able to make that type of decision without premorbid documentation of the patient's wishes.If the patient doesn't make express wishes someone has to take charge when the evidence is the person has no chance of recovery. My feeling, along with the overwhelming majority of Americans in the polls, agree that the spouse should be the first one in line to make the decision. Leave the government and courts out of it.

The Schindler's delusional selfishness is the only reason this has made it into the public limelight. With revelations that the parents are selling donor lists and illegal photos, I am more inclined to think they may be in it for the money also.

Now, as to Terri, (remember her?), why should she have to exist in this manner so that her parents can have a plaything? Pretty undignified for a 41 year old woman, wouldn't you say?
Consider this, she was vain enough to be a bulimic (She did look better thin) It is obvious that she would not want to be seen in her current condition.

If I was in even half the condition Terri is in my dying thoughts, if I was capable of thought, would be why do these people hate me so much to keep me in this hell?

[Ali]

Where's the Terminator when you need him.Governing California?

[Whois]

Where's the Terminator when you need him.

Running Kalifornia into the ground like a good Terminator.

Let's face it, the job of politicians is to feed...off us.

Ahnuld's next movie - "Terminator 4: The Vampire's Curse"

[STANKY808]

Right. I still don't see how this was determined given no premorbid documentation of this by Terri. And I don't think that in the future, the courts should be able to make that type of decision without premorbid documentation of the patient's wishes.

So failing said documentation, you think people should be kept alive regardless of what their express wishes were?

Also, I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, what sense does it make to use all those resources to keep her alive when there are citizens with no healthcare at all?

[ASsman]

Hehehe, irony. The poor are funny.

[Qdrop]

Hehehe, irony. The poor are funny.

why do you keep finding irony in everything?

enough with the irony.

move on to symbolism....

[Qdrop]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7334555/

3/30/05
Appeals court declines new Schiavo review
Parents had gotten green light to ask for new hearing

[Whois]

Hehehe, irony. The poor are funny.

...and yummy, ask Mr Swift.

[WhoMoi?]

If the patient doesn't make express wishes someone has to take charge when the evidence is the person has no chance of recovery. My feeling, along with the overwhelming majority of Americans in the polls, agree that the spouse should be the first one in line to make the decision. Leave the government and courts out of it.

The Schindler's delusional selfishness is the only reason this has made it into the public limelight. With revelations that the parents are selling donor lists and illegal photos, I am more inclined to think they may be in it for the money also.

Now, as to Terri, (remember her?), why should she have to exist in this manner so that her parents can have a plaything? Pretty undignified for a 41 year old woman, wouldn't you say?
Consider this, she was vain enough to be a bulimic (She did look better thin) It is obvious that she would not want to be seen in her current condition.

If I was in even half the condition Terri is in my dying thoughts, if I was capable of thought, would be why do these people hate me so much to keep me in this hell?

I understand that there is no chance of recovery; it's been 15 years. I also understand about guardianship. I still don't think, in the case of starving someone to death, that someone else should be able to make that decision. It's not a DNR or pulling a respirator; it's denying someone of food. Think about this: if she was in the cognitive condition she's in but had maintained her some of her pharyngeal swallowing capabilities so that she could be on some type of solid food (i.e. pureed solids, thickened liquids), they would never be able to consider starving her. It would be illegal under all circumstances. So for some people who are in the exact same situation as Terri, but are able to maintain a modified diet, this would not even be an option.
I think it's pretty insensitive to allege that her parents want a "plaything." She's their daughter, of course they're going to do whatever they can to do what they think is right for her. I'm sure it is unbelievably hard for them to see her in this condition, so I imagine they must really believe that she should be alive to be fighting like this.

So failing said documentation, you think people should be kept alive regardless of what their express wishes were?

Also, I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, what sense does it make to use all those resources to keep her alive when there are citizens with no healthcare at all?

I should clarify: failing said documentation, I don't think people should be able to have feeding tubes pulled. DNRs, possibly pulling of a respirator (depending on the situation)...those I feel it's okay for a guardian to decide upon. Denying someone food is just barbaric to me, under any circumstances.
As for the healthcare issue...it all comes back to if you can really judge whether someone else's life is worth living. I feel that I can't; it's not my decision to make. Would I want to be kept alive if I were in her situation? I'm inclined to say no. But, honestly, I don't know, because I've heard so many different reports about her level of functioning, etc., I don't know what to believe about her condition anymore. I do know that I've met brain-injured people who are very low functioning, but still have meaningful relationships with people...and I don't know if that might be worth living for for some people. So that's why I feel like I can't judge, and I would rather err on the side of not ending someone's life, if I don't know for sure what they would want.

I guess overall, people's feelings on this matter is really a personal thing. People have differences of opinion of quality of life based on their own personal experiences. Because I make my living helping people who have lost - or were born without - certain capablities, obviously my perception of the situation is going to be different than that of someone who hasn't had that experience.
In any event, it's a really interesting case that has made me question a lot of things. One major thing is the credibility of a lot of news stations/sources, because I really wanted to know about Terri's true condition and got so many conflicting reports, I don't even know what to believe at this point!

[Rosie Cotton]

Think about this: if she was in the cognitive condition she's in but had maintained her some of her pharyngeal swallowing capabilities so that she could be on some type of solid food (i.e. pureed solids, thickened liquids), they would never be able to consider starving her.
Except if she was able to swallow she would not be in the same cognitive condition. The only part of her brain that works is the part that controls her breathing and heartbeat. She's basically been dead for the past fifteen years.

[Ali]

Terri Schiavo's Blog (http://durrrrr.blogspot.com/)

[WhoMoi?]

Except if she was able to swallow she would not be in the same cognitive condition.

That's not true at all. Cognitive condition refers to someone's ability to reason, perceive, make judgments, etc. Swallowing isn't a cognitive function. It's involuntary in the pharyngeal and esophageal phases and is controlled by the brainstem and cranial nerves. Because cognition and swallow function are controlled by different brain areas, patients can be as severely cognitively inept as Terri was and still maintain their swallow function to some extent so that they can eat a modified diet.

[jegtar]

I agree, we should start killing all crippled people in this country.

[Rosie Cotton]

That's not true at all. Cognitive condition refers to someone's ability to reason, perceive, make judgments, etc. Swallowing isn't a cognitive function. It's involuntary in the pharyngeal and esophageal phases and is controlled by the brainstem and cranial nerves. Because cognition and swallow function are controlled by different brain areas, patients can be as severely cognitively inept as Terri was and still maintain their swallow function to some extent so that they can eat a modified diet.
But that part of her brain was dead. Like I said, the only part that was still working was the part that controlled breathing and heartbeat.

In Alzheimer's patients that is one of the last things to go. Except with end-stage Alzheimer's patients, the end comes fairly quickly. She was like that for fifteen years.

[Rosie Cotton]

I agree, we should start killing all crippled people in this country.
There is a difference between removing a tube from a woman who is essentially brain dead and smothering a paraplegic with a pillow.

There is also a difference between euthanasia and the right to refuse treatment, before we go back to that arguement.

[ASsman]

I agree, we should start killing all crippled people in this country.
Exactly. Especially those who cannot hold a gun and shoot it at A-Rabs. Useless to today society, frankly.

[Whois]

I agree, we should start killing all crippled people in this country.

Starting with Congress, shyster lawyers, and other brain dead asshats.

[jegtar]

I was thinking literally sniping people in wheelchairs, oh well. The pillow thing is a good idea too.

[D_Raay]

Exactly. Especially those who cannot hold a gun and shoot it at A-Rabs. Useless to today society, frankly.
Ahahahahhah... Don't know why but that tickled me funny bone (y)

[WhoMoi?]

But that part of her brain was dead. Like I said, the only part that was still working was the part that controlled breathing and heartbeat..

The brainstem IS the area that controls breathing and heartbeat, so no, her brainstem was not "dead"; in fact, it was the most intact part of her brain left. Some of the parts of the brainstem that control swallowing must have been damaged, and this delayed or inhibited her swallow reflex, leading them to put her on a feeding tube so that food wouldn't go into her lungs and cause her to have aspiration pneumonia. This is all sort of besides the point I had been trying to make anyway though...

The point I was trying to make in my original post about this was that HAD she maintained swallow function and not been on a feeding tube, AND been in the same cognitive state she was in - and it is entirely possible for someone to be in that state, I've done swallowing therapy with people like that - there would never have been an option to starve her to death. I think it's something to think about, the fact that we can use level of cognitive functioning to argue starving someone to death if they are tube-fed, but not if they are fed by any form of actual food.

[ASsman]

I think that's sick. Keeping people around because you can't deal with their death. Like stuffing your animal. Human's who cannot deal with loss - 1 Mother Nature - 0 .