What's the point of this forum

[hellojello]

General Political Discussion
This is the place to talk about whatever is on your mind in the political sphere. Conflicting views welcome, intolerance not tolerated.

I see little of this.

To be fair, there's a small *very* small, handful of people who frequent here that actually attempt to stimulate intelligent discussion or debate, with relavant facts and well established (ie. with some base) opinions.

But mostly it's a lot of random insult slinging and irrelavant chat (irrelavant includes people that think they are debating but are really just towing their own political line). And then there's article after article of crap that's already on the internet, and often not that valid (ie. highly bias due to news network it's coming from). I have a search engine too, you know. Not to forget the people that are here cause they're just desperate to validate their own sensless opinoins, and make themselves feel self important for once in their dismal lives. Is THIS the point of this forum? Am I being idealistic hoping for anything more? Would anything more essentially be an internet utopia?

What IS the point of this forum?

Discuss.

[NeuroticPassion]

I do agree that sometimes on this forum there is a bit of unrelated topics to what should be discussed here, but you don't have to be so critical about it. If truly bothers you that much then try not to involve yourself in it. I am not, in any way, trying to be rude about this but what matters is that you have identified the problem and you can either solve it or leave it. I suggest that you start some of your own threads... because I would love to have a serious discussion on other matters.

[Jasonik]

Albert Einstein arrives at a party and introduces himself to the first person he sees and asks, "What is your IQ?" to which the man answers 212.

"That is wonderful!" says Albert. "We will talk about the Grand Unification Theory and the mysteries of the Universe. We will have much to discuss!"

Next Albert introduces himself to a woman and asks, What is your IQ?" to which the lady answers, 144.

"That is great!," responds Albert. "We can discuss politics and current affairs. We will have much to discuss!"

Albert goes to another person and asks, "What is your IQ?" to which the man answers, 51.

Albert responds, "How 'bout dem "?

******

"There are three classes of people. Those who see; those who see when they are shown; those who do not see." ---Leonardo Di Vinci

******

"The ruling totalitarian-ideological class is the ruler of a world turned upside down. The more powerful the class, the more it claims not to exist, and its power is employed above all to enforce this claim. It is modest only on this one point, however, because this officially nonexistent bureaucracy simultaneously attributes the crowning achievements of history to its own infallible leadership. Though its existence is everywhere in evidence, the bureaucracy must be invisible as a class. As a result, all social life becomes insane. The social organization of total falsehood stems from this fundamental contradiction." ---Guy Debord [i]The Society of the Spectacle, par. 106

******

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
--- C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_

******

"A reasonable man accepts the conditon of the world he sees around himself, and adapts his wants and desires appropriately. An Unreasonable man seeks to change the world to suit his wants and desires. Therefore, all progress is the work of unreasonable men."---Kung Fu Tsi (AKA Confucious) Ca. 500 b.c.

******

Politics is a pendulum whose swings between anarchy and tyranny are fueled by perpetually rejuvenated illusions. --- Albert Einstein

******
I suggest that you start some of your own threads...


I am not, in any way, trying to be rude about this but hellojello just did!




When you remove ideas and philosophy from politics it is reduced to an agenda driven 'he said / she said' shouting match. This is highly desirable for those in power, because there can be no public weighing of their reasoning; there is no way to question or undermine their position. We aren't given the 'tools' to properly debate contemporary politics by our society. Everything that goes on here in the name of 'debate' merely illustrates how powerless and 'illiterate' we really are.

One of the cornerstones of debate is that the participants be open to the possibility that an opinion/viewpoint/conclusion/belief held must be abandoned for another if the other side makes a compelling case. This attitude is sorely lacking in postmodern civic life. Removing stultifying pride and preconception from civic discourse should be our ultimate goal.

[hellojello]

I'm probably going to get called conceited or arrogant or something for saying this but if someone presents me with a well established, coherent, and factual argument that's backed up with sources, and I have no rebuttal as to why it isn't true, I do actually admit I'm wrong and [they're] right.
In my experience most people however, aren't prepared to do this, and I come off looking weak willed and lacking confidence or character or something because I'm the one that can actually admit when I'm wrong or have been defeated.

[yeahwho]

For you it is obviously something different than it is for me. I'm not here looking for a debate, nor to validate some pre-concieved idea in my head. If someone wants to debate me, fine. I don't give a shit if somebody disagrees with me. You'll prolly never see me do a quote/response per line item like some do here (and some do a smashing job of it too) just cause it's not in my nature.

Also, my family, friends and whole town are politically active. From what I gather much more so than other parts of the USA. I do go to rallies and local govt. functions on a regular basis.

After 40 or so posts in the Beasties section I got bored. I could come up with an endless line of nonsense for the general or snaps section...that shit is easy. But truth be told, the political forum is just way more interesting and current. The POV expressed by most in this forum is a good look at what those around you at a BB's show would have.

That's my point.

[hellojello]

For you it is obviously something different than it is for me. I'm not here looking for a debate, nor to validate some pre-concieved idea in my head. If someone wants to debate me, fine. I don't give a shit if somebody disagrees with me. You'll prolly never see me do a quote/response per line item like some do here (and some do a smashing job of it too) just cause it's not in my nature.

Also, my family, friends and whole town are politically active. From what I gather much more so than other parts of the USA. I do go to rallies and local govt. functions on a regular basis.

After 40 or so posts in the Beasties section I got bored. I could come up with an endless line of nonsense for the general or snaps section...that shit is easy. But truth be told, the political forum is just way more interesting and current. The POV expressed by most in this forum is a good look at what those around you at a BB's show would have.

That's my point.
fair enough then
i have no problem with that

I'm not sure what you're assuming it is for me though, I don't think I really said what I'm on this forum for, I was just wondering what other people thought this forum was for.

[Ali]

I'm probably going to get called conceited or arrogant or something for saying this but if someone presents me with a well established, coherent, and factual argument that's backed up with sources, and I have no rebuttal as to why it isn't true, I do actually admit I'm wrong and [they're] right.When was this?

[yeahwho]

fair enough then
i have no problem with that

I'm not sure what you're assuming it is for me though, I don't think I really said what I'm on this forum for, I was just wondering what other people thought this forum was for.

refer to your opening post.....you said what you thought of this forum,

But mostly it's a lot of random insult slinging and irrelavant chat (irrelavant includes people that think they are debating but are really just towing their own political line). And then there's article after article of crap that's already on the internet, and often not that valid (ie. highly bias due to news network it's coming from). I have a search engine too, you know. Not to forget the people that are here cause they're just desperate to validate their own sensless opinoins, and make themselves feel self important for once in their dismal lives. Is THIS the point of this forum? Am I being idealistic hoping for anything more? Would anything more essentially be an internet utopia?

I've really never thought of it as that. When somebody is conveying their point rather than just trying to get a rise out of people it can often be entertaining. Opinions (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion) count. If it were only facts these posts would be very dry.

I think about this forum completely different than you do, my assumptions are based on what you wrote above, you assume many here lead dismal lives with senseless opinions and low self esteem. I've never even considered that. I just pop open a window, read a little, then type a bit. This site usually makes me smile.

[ms.peachy]

The thing is, there's not always a 'right' and 'wrong'. Even arguments that can be objectively factually substantiated can be subjectively interpreted. the problem arises in that people tend to think that they are being factually objective when if fact they are interpreting subjectively. And we are all at some time or another guilty of this, because we are all humans. (Well most of us, anyway.)

Personally, I do like to argue. I also like to debate. I try to stay aware of when I am doing one as opposed to the other. I grew up in a big Irish and Italian family, where raucous shouting matches over the Thanksgiving table about politics, religion, sexuality etc was pretty par for the course - so calling someone an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about wasn't really relevant to what you thought of them as a person, you know?

[hellojello]

refer to your opening post.....you said what you thought of this forum,

But mostly it's a lot of random insult slinging and irrelavant chat (irrelavant includes people that think they are debating but are really just towing their own political line). And then there's article after article of crap that's already on the internet, and often not that valid (ie. highly bias due to news network it's coming from). I have a search engine too, you know. Not to forget the people that are here cause they're just desperate to validate their own sensless opinoins, and make themselves feel self important for once in their dismal lives. Is THIS the point of this forum? Am I being idealistic hoping for anything more? Would anything more essentially be an internet utopia?

I've really never thought of it as that. When somebody is conveying their point rather than just trying to get a rise out of people it can often be entertaining. Opinions (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion) count. If it were only facts these posts would be very dry.

I think about this forum completely different than you do, my assumptions are based on what you wrote above, you assume many here lead dismal lives with senseless opinions and low self esteem. I've never even considered that. I just pop open a window, read a little, then type a bit. This site usually makes me smile.
that's my observation about what I think happens in this forum, but not, what I think the point of this forum is. I'm not sure this forum even has a point to be honest.

edit: I never said 'I thought, I said, I see'

[hellojello]

When was this?
I was talking about me as a person, I don't live my life through this forum, or even this message board.

[yeahwho]

that's my observation about what I think happens in this forum, but not, what I think the point of this forum is. I'm not sure this forum even has a point to be honest.

Not going to argue with you, your not even sure why your here.

[hellojello]

The thing is, there's not always a 'right' and 'wrong'. Even arguments that can be objectively factually substantiated can be subjectively interpreted. the problem arises in that people tend to think that they are being factually objective when if fact they are interpreting subjectively. And we are all at some time or another guilty of this, because we are all humans. (Well most of us, anyway.)

Personally, I do like to argue. I also like to debate. I try to stay aware of when I am doing one as opposed to the other. I grew up in a big Irish and Italian family, where raucous shouting matches over the Thanksgiving table about politics, religion, sexuality etc was pretty par for the course - so calling someone an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about wasn't really relevant to what you thought of them as a person, you know?
You're right that there isn't always a right or a wrong, I realise some things are ambiguous and open to interpretation. And I am open to debate. But I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes there's people here who are putting forth an point that has actual factual basis, while other's argue with them using purely their personal opinions as a rebuttal. The whole concept of even doing that seems kind of pointless to me, as to me it's like someone refuting a non-fiction book, with fiction.

[hellojello]

Not going to argue with you, your not even sure why your here.
that's good because I wasn't trying to incite an argument, I was just asking people's opinions on the point of this forum.
I have to say though there's a difference between not being sure if there's a point (to this forum) and not being sure why I am here.

[yeahwho]

that's good because I wasn't trying to incite an argument, I was just asking people's opinions on the point of this forum.
I have to say though there's a difference between not being sure if there's a point (to this forum) and not being sure why I am here.

The point is, if you enjoy being here and participating you can. If you don't, you can or cannot participate. The point is that the Beastie Boys decided it would be nice to have a political forum. I figured out day one it wasn't perfect.....but kinda funny and slightly educational.

This is the place to talk about whatever is on your mind in the political sphere. Conflicting views welcome, intolerance not tolerated.

The wisdom of the above statement being that other forums don't get all political and cluttered up with this sort of BS.

Tolerence is the key.

[hellojello]

The point is, if you enjoy being here and participating you can. If you don't, you can or cannot participate. The point is that the Beastie Boys decided it would be nice to have a political forum. I figured out day one it wasn't perfect.....but kinda funny and slightly educational.

This is the place to talk about whatever is on your mind in the political sphere. Conflicting views welcome, intolerance not tolerated.

The wisdom of the above statement being that other forums don't get all political and cluttered up with this sort of BS.

Tolerence is the key.
OK fair enough. What you say makes sense. Thanks for your input.

[Qdrop]

I see little of this.

To be fair, there's a small *very* small, handful of people who frequent here that actually attempt to stimulate intelligent discussion or debate, with relavant facts and well established (ie. with some base) opinions.
meaning: they say things i agree with.


But mostly it's a lot of random insult slinging and irrelavant chat
oh don't be so mad. i and others were instantly turned off by your globalization thread because after ONE person NICELY disagreed and questioned some of your points and sources, you IMMEDIANTLY launched into an attack on his level of education and age.
if that's the case, why the fuck bother posting on your thread?

i responded to that post (harshly, i admit) by telling you this- hoping you would see that such an attitude won't illicit much debate. but it had no effect. so we paid little respect to your topic.

(irrelavant includes people that think they are debating but are really just towing their own political line).

honey, that's 90% of the people on here.
welcome to the liberal circle jerk carnivale.


And then there's article after article of crap that's already on the internet,
it's meant to stimulate discussion ON that topic.
yes, anyone can check MSNBC, or media matters, ect....


and often not that valid (ie. highly bias due to news network it's coming from).
please name one source that you truly believe has NO bias.

Not to forget the people that are here cause they're just desperate to validate their own sensless opinoins, and make themselves feel self important for once in their dismal lives.
oh that's ALL of us. you included.
we all have ego's that want to be fed.

Is THIS the point of this forum?
the point of this forum is disucssion.
there is plenty of that.

it may not go the way you want it to....tough.
it rarely goes the way i want....but i deal.

[Ali]

But I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes there's people here who are putting forth an point that has actual factual basis, while other's argue with them using purely their personal opinions as a rebuttal.



welcome to the liberal circle jerk carnivale.


please name one source that you truly believe has NO bias.


we all have ego's that want to be fed. :rolleyes:

[Jasonik]

welcome to the liberal circle jerk circus.

Cliquish condescension, how enlightened. Who are the 'sheeple' again?

[Ali]

We are the Lemmings, remember? :p

[Qdrop]

Cliquish condescension, how enlightened. Who are the 'sheeple' again?

you deny that 90% of the posters on this section are far lefties who are only at equilibrium when they can fill 2 pages of a thread, uncontested, with right bashing rhettoric?

"i hate bush"
"yeah, and cheney sucks too"
"yeah"
"kill em"
"yeah"
"thier so gay"

"global warming is real"
"oh definately"
"it's a conspiracy for more oil"
"yeah"

"i don't think we really know enough about global warming yet..."

"WHAT!?"
"what an asshole"
"brainwashed"
"yeah"
"fuckin 0-drop.."
"he must be a conservative"
"yeah, definately"
"how dare he"
"yeah..."
"he'd getting served!"
"totally getting his ass handed to him"
"i'm loving it"
"what an asshole..."

"bush sucks...he stole the election twice."
"yeah"




ya know, jasonik. you're posts would mean more if they came more than once every 2 months.

granted, mine might mean more if they came less than 25 times a day....

[Jasonik]

ya know, jasonik. you're posts would mean more if they came more than once every 2 months.

So I'm officially not part of the 'BBMB Political Forum Clique'? I'm so shamed by your peer pressure, I'll have to post more often to get your approval.

[hellojello]

meaning: they say things i agree with.


oh don't be so mad. i and others were instantly turned off by your globalization thread because after ONE person NICELY disagreed and questioned some of your points and sources, you IMMEDIANTLY launched into an attack on his level of education and age. if that's the case, why the fuck bother posting on your thread?

i responded to that post (harshly, i admit) by telling you this- hoping you would see that such an attitude won't illicit much debate. but it had no effect. so we paid little respect to your topic.


honey, that's 90% of the people on here.
welcome to the liberal circle jerk carnivale.


it's meant to stimulate discussion ON that topic.
yes, anyone can check MSNBC, or media matters, ect....


please name one source that you truly believe has NO bias.


oh that's ALL of us. you included.
we all have ego's that want to be fed.


the point of this forum is disucssion.
there is plenty of that.

it may not go the way you want it to....tough.
it rarely goes the way i want....but i deal.
meaning: they say things i agree with.
stop manipulating my words to suit your argument I never said that.
oh don't be so mad. i and others were instantly turned off by your globalization thread because after ONE person NICELY disagreed and questioned some of your points and sources, you IMMEDIANTLY launched into an attack on his level of education and age.
I didn't immediatley launch into an attack I asked what enigma's assumptions were based on. I also asked you the first time you accused me of 'immediantly' attacking enigma to go back and read what I wrote, evidently you didn't.
And I never said anything about enigma's age that was someone else.
i responded to that post (harshly, i admit) by telling you this- hoping you would see that such an attitude won't illicit much debate. but it had no effect. so we paid little respect to your topic.
you did not tell me that, you started with 'let me just say hellojello is an arrogant asshole.' And finished with something similar.
I don't think you and ali account for ''other's'' either. Last I checked there's only one ali.

Either way, you going on about my globalization thread is nothing to do with this topic, this topic is about the point of this forum. I just wanted to claify things you said that were clearly wrong. Please stop making baseless accusations.

the point of this forum is disucssion.
there is plenty of that.

ok, thanks for your input.

[hellojello]

:rolleyes:

You're right that there isn't always a right or a wrong, I realise some things are ambiguous and open to interpretation. And I am open to debate. But I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes there's people here who are putting forth an point that has actual factual basis, while other's argue with them using purely their personal opinions as a rebuttal. The whole concept of even doing that seems kind of pointless to me, as to me it's like someone refuting a non-fiction book, with fiction.

[hellojello]

ya know, jasonik. you're posts would mean more if they came more than once every 2 months.
I'm not having a go [at you], I really want to know, are you serious?

granted, mine might mean more if they came less than 25 times a day....
I know this has already been highlighted
but I take it you've never heard of the concept quality not quantity?

[Qdrop]

So I'm officially not part of the 'BBMB Political Forum Clique'? I'm so shamed by your peer pressure, I'll have to post more often to get your approval.

i think you are actually one of the smartest dudes on this board.

but you only post like once every 2 months....and most of those posts are rather cryptic and vague.

it would be nice to see you post more often.

you bring balance to this section.

[Qdrop]

I didn't immediatley launch into an attack I asked what enigma's assumptions were based on. I also asked you the first time you accused me of 'immediantly' attacking enigma to go back and read what I wrote, evidently you didn't.
And I never said anything about enigma's age that was someone else.
well, you had the thread deleted, so i guess we'll never know for sure.


you did not tell me that, you started with 'let me just say hellojello is an arrogant asshole.' And finished with something similar.
no, i called you a moron.

i called you an "ignorant asshole" on the BF thread when you stated that if "Black people started lynching and hanging white people, I would understand".

but, you had the thread deleted, so i guess we'll never know for sure.

[hellojello]

well, you had the thread deleted, so i guess we'll never know for sure.


no, i called you a moron.

i called you an "ignorant asshole" on the BF thread when you stated that if "Black people started lynching and hanging white people, you would understand".

but, you had the thread deleted, so i guess we'll never know for sure.
I will know, and that's all that matters.

[Qdrop]

I'm not having a go [at you], I really want to know, are you serious?

yeah.


I know this has already been highlighted
but I take it you've never heard of the concept quality not quantity?
yeah, see....i'm the one who stated it, poking fun at myself and admitting to my sometimes over-zealous posting.
by doing so, i took away your ammo.....
beat you to the punch, so to speak.

get it?

for someone who claims to be so intelligent and well read, your barbs are rather predictable, obvious and generic.

[hellojello]

yeah.


yeah, see....i'm the one who stated it, poking fun at myself and admitting to my sometimes over-zealous posting.
by doing so, i took away your ammo.....
beat you to the punch, so to speak.

get it?

for someone who claims to be so intelligent and well read, your barbs are rather predictable, obvious and generic.
But mostly it's a lot of random insult slinging and irrelavant chat
the point of this forum is disucssion.
there is plenty of that.

[Qdrop]

it takes 2 to tango, sweety. ;)

[ASsman]

Tolerance is what has kept this country filled with ignorant nigger hating people. Or is it complacency?

Also, this thread is becoming ironic.

Lame.

[Jasonik]

but you only post like once every 2 months....and most of those posts are rather cryptic and vague.

“Self-consciousness exists in itself and for itself only insofar as it exists in and for another self-consciousness; that is, it exists only by being recognized and acknowledged.”
---Hegel, The Phenomenology of Spirit

******

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something."
---Plato, Quoted in Des MacHale, Wisdom (London, 2002).

******

"...no intelligent man will ever be so bold as to put into language those things which his reason has contemplated."
---Plato

******

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things."
---René Descartes, Discours de la Méthode. 1637.

[Qdrop]

why the need for quotes?...

just say it your own damn self.

"he who uses other's words to speak for him, needn't speak at all..."
---Qdrop (2005)

[bb_bboy]

I don't really know what this board means to me anymore. I used to post pretty frequently here, but now I come mostly to read and take in the varied perspectives about (an albeit limted number) of current events. There used to be, not very long ago, a lot of worthwhile discussion going on here. Now it seems as if most threads could easily be truncated to a few significant posts with a brief abstract dedicated to insigficant tangential points and petty arguing.

I still visit mostly to get a general feel of what people are thinking about, more so than what they are actually thinking. It is, of course, still fun to see the recognizable personalities hash it out over relevant issues and begin to understand all of the possible interpretations of the scenarios shaping our world. I don't think that any mean of opinions taken from this group would somehow be representative of any larger population. However, to me that does not make any serious user's thoughts less significant than other serious user's thoughts. I think that taking them all into consideration, for this time, place and forum, can be an enlightening experience.

[Jasonik]

"Beggars can't be choosers" ---Proverb

See you in 2 months. ;)

[D_Raay]

I don't really know what this board means to me anymore. I used to post pretty frequently here, but now I come mostly to read and take in the varied perspectives about (an albeit limted number) of current events. There used to be, not very long ago, a lot of worthwhile discussion going on here. Now it seems as if most threads could easily be truncated to a few significant posts with a brief abstract dedicated to insigficant tangential points and petty arguing.

I still visit mostly to get a general feel of what people are thinking about, more so than what they are actually thinking. It is, of course, still fun to see the recognizable personalities hash it out over relevant issues and begin to understand all of the possible interpretations of the scenarios shaping our world. I don't think that any mean of opinions taken from this group would somehow be representative of any larger population. However, to me that does not make any serious user's thoughts less significant than other serious user's thoughts. I think that taking them all into consideration, for this time, place and forum, can be an enlightening experience.

You are on to something there. This board went south when certain personalities became a fixture and a voice to all issues. There is nothing left but to engage in petty discussions and arguments. I used to do more perusing than posting, simply because the content was much more interesting.

That being said I realize I add little to this board on most occasions. Yes I am a bit hypocritical. I merely post now to see what reaction I will get, or what disturbingly humorous response I will get from ASsman.

No offense meant for anyone here, everyone's voice is a valid one for me, even if sometimes a not very interesting or grammatically incorrect one.

[Whois]

Tolerence is the key.

We have found a witch, may we burn he/she/it?

[Ali]

We have found a witch, may we burn he/she/it?only if s/he/it (say it fast) floats.

Wooo hooo!

Ali's on form and no coffee as yet.

Hellojello, take a big old hit on the chillum, relax and enjoy yourself. You're here to share your views with other people and argue with them if you think they're wrong (or if you think you're right). All in good fun (I hope). A sense of humour/irony/cynicism is probably a required item.

Hint: don't attempt to enter into any sort of discourse with qtip. Complete and utter waste of time, as I'm sure you are discovering.

[hellojello]

only if s/he/it (say it fast) floats.

Hellojello, take a big old hit on the chillum, relax and enjoy yourself. You're here to share your views with other people and argue with them if you think they're wrong (or if you think you're right). All in good fun (I hope). A sense of humour/irony/cynicism is probably a required item.

Am i?
I thought I was here to create controversy. :rolleyes:
Anyways point taken.
And that goes to everyone.
I guess I was expecting some sort of internet utopia after all.
I'll try and remember not to expect anything from here and then I might be pleasantly surprised.
Thanks everyone for your responses.

[Ali]

I'll try and remember not to expect anything from here and then I might be pleasantly surprised. but not patronised :mad:

[Qdrop]

Hint: don't attempt to enter into any sort of discourse with qtip. Complete and utter waste of time, as I'm sure you are discovering.

funny how only certain people have such an issue with me, while others do not.

again, perhaps "it take 2 to tango" works here as well, Ali?

[paulk]

I think general beastie-free is even more pointless. The people who post in there are even bigger assholes than the worst in political.

[ericg]

Excellent question in respect... Out of hand thread, aas usual, which goes to show the social problems due to the "politically" (inept) terms and arena where the rules overtly don't measure up right....; nobody has the experience or simple know how for a real winning play in a cultural... aspect to make it right when playing the game they've been fed. Subjected points galore. Without prioritizing... finding the common denominator... keeping it plain... to see and be... the bigger question is where would you go and how would you act with the answers appropriately in good time... Here... Of course there is certainly right and wrong. Fidelity and infidelity.

I've certainly found some good info here... there is no need for static. Again, it shows there's no real or good sense in conviction, attitude, or intention. No resolve. Though again, where would you act simply upon and appropriately in the first place? Really, how do you live to get by? Everything I've said is sealed with truth and sticks with me. Take it how you will. Everything else for contradiction's sake is of no good matter, time, or consequence. Thanks for the info and sources. It'll all be duly noted.

I mean, some things you have to get first, even if they seem terminal... and without resolution... and then concentrate and expound on the true thought... Prioritize... Think macro. The fact is is that it goes straight to the top (Bush's corrupt corporate elite), and who are you to change that in these so called United States? Well, you're supposed to be on it. How? As a consolodated public. How? Where there's a will, there's a way. How? It's real simple and I've said before.

[hellojello]

but not patronised :mad:
i bet you think this song is about you, don't you?



oh and paulk, I don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise