This shit with stem cells

[QueenAdrock]

It's really bothering me. Pres. Bush vetoed the bill today, saying that he wants to call for "a culture of life." And some crippled guy said he'd never "murder his daughter" just so he could be able to walk again.

Do these guys seriously think that people are going to have abortions for the sole purpose of stem cells? Fuck no. Abortion is a horrible thing that no woman should ever have to go through, nor do they ever WANT to. But no matter what, abortions are a part of life. Agree with it, disagree with it, legal or illegal, abortions will STILL GO ON. Stem cell research does not give the thumbs-up to abortions, it makes a good thing out of a bad situation.

By their theory, shouldn't organ donation be illegal? I mean, if someone commits suicide, or if someone commits homicide, the victims shouldn't have their organs taken out for someone else's use. I mean, that's practically saying that killing is okay, right?

Same situation. Same hypocrisy. It makes me sick.

[D_Raay]

My diabetic friend who completely loves Bush and all conservatives has officially renounced him now. THERE IS HOPE...

[open letter]

i am all for stem cell reserch

if it can be used to find a cure for some deseases then is it realy worth saving one little cell rather than using that cell to save the lift of hundreds of other people

and if bush wants a "culture of life" a nice way to get started on that would be to get rid of the death penalty

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

By their theory, shouldn't organ donation be illegal? I mean, if someone commits suicide, or if someone commits homicide, the victims shouldn't have their organs taken out for someone else's use. I mean, that's practically saying that killing is okay, right?

Same situation. Same hypocrisy. It makes me sick.


I agree with you somewhat by thinking that stem cell research would be a positive coming from a negative, and that that negative isn't going anywhere. But, in my opinion, abortion is just that, a negative. But lumping suicide in with the other examples as the "same situation" is totally off-base. Suicide victims make a conscious decision to take their OWN lives. Aborted fetuses, however, can't help it that their would-be mother got knocked up when she was twelve and would rather give the fetus* the Hoover treatment than pay for the reprecussion of her AND his actions. I don't mean to be cold because I sympathize with rape victims, but when you boil it down, it's still a would-be life. But technology has a hand in that as well. Christ, I have so many friends that were "accidents" in the 70's and early 80's. They would not be here if born a few years later. Just my opinion.


*not to be confused with "baby"

[Ace42]

but when you boil it down, it's still a would-be life.

So's every sperm you wank out, or every fertile woman you don't rape.

Every sperm is sacred...

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

So's every sperm you wank out, or every fertile woman you don't rape.

Every sperm is sacred...

Not at all. They are just components to a natural equation. Don't get it twisted, I acknowledge that everyone has their own opinions on the subject and there are situations that I could see where people make the decision they do. I'm just saying that if a girl I got pregnant had an abortion, I would have a hard time for the rest of my life. There's always adoption. Millions of married couples that are unable to have children would give anything to have a baby.

[open letter]

Not at all. They are just components to a natural equation.
well so are stem cells

they are have not taken the form of a specific cell and are just components

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

I agree with you somewhat by thinking that stem cell research would be a positive coming from a negative

[QueenAdrock]

But lumping suicide in with the other examples as the "same situation" is totally off-base. Suicide victims make a conscious decision to take their OWN lives. Aborted fetuses, however, can't help it that their would-be mother got knocked up when she was twelve

It is the same situation though. The prospect of it being a conscious decision doesn't weigh into the equation. The point was that suicide, as well as homocide, are horrible acts and are to be avoided at all costs in our society. And no one is going to choose to go through with one of those acts, simply because of the silver lining of organ donation.

In that respect, they parallel the abortion/stem cell debate, since politicians are afraid that allowing stem cell research will validate the idea of abortion.

[Rosie Cotton]

Most of the stem cells that would be used come from abandoned frozen embryos in fertility clinics, correct? Most of those are going to be destroyed anyway. Why shouldn't they be used?

[Ace42]

Not at all. They are just components to a natural equation. Don't get it twisted

You are the one who is getting it twisted, my friend. A fetus is merely a "component to a natural equation" - without a womb, without a caring mother, without as much intervention (indeed, a lot more) as it takes to inject semen in the first-place it cannot come to term.

Tear it out, see if it can come to term on its own without intervention (IE without having a womb, without having a mother to feed it, without having doctors to deliver it, etc etc) and then it will truly be a life. Otherwise, like a sperm, or any other set of incomplete circumstances, it is merely a set of unfulfilled circumstances - like a washed out date that doesn't lead to coitus.

Celibacy prevents the birth of millions of "potential lives" *per person per day* (for men, a few a year for women) and yet I do not see people railing against that.

You are currently the victim of a logic error (IE that there can be 'degrees of potential' and that one person who "hasn't been born yet" nor will is more real than any one of a billion people who haven't been born yet, nor will, solely because their parents will never have sex.) and while your position is emotionally valid, rationally it is totally nonsensical.

I'm just saying that if a girl I got pregnant had an abortion, I would have a hard time for the rest of my life.

Because you have been culturally programmed to have these pre-conceived (and fallacious) ideas about the situation. And as such you share these schemas with other people, and thus spread your world view. If society had not interjected these preconceptions upon you, you would not have this point of view, and thus would not feel guilt about what should be a guiltless course of action. In effect you are propogating a nonsense. It is self-fulfilling. You would have a hard time for the rest of your life not because it would have any effect on who you are or what you do, but because society has conditioned you to have a hard time about it.

The idea that you would feel bad about the non-life of a person who never existed is rather quaint, but totally idiotic. While I sometimes cry during sad movies, I certainly don't have a "hard time for the rest of my life" about the death of a fictional character.

[bb_bboy]

Do these guys seriously think that people are going to have abortions for the sole purpose of stem cells? Fuck no.

But, in my opinion, abortion is just that, a negative.

Aborted fetuses [my bold] ...

Most of the stem cells that would be used come from abandoned frozen embryos [my bold] in fertility clinics, correct? Most of those are going to be destroyed anyway. Why shouldn't they be used?

The best stem cells (for the types of disease fighting uses that I think we are talking about) are embryonic stem cells. There is so much misinformation out there trying to find a correlation between taking stem cells from would be discarded embryos and some ficticious pro-active abortion campaign that it drives me fucking insane.

[Qdrop]

when a fetus is within a women's womb, it is NOT yet a member of society....this was established under the Right To Privacy law in Rowe vs. Wade.

if it is not a member of society, and is not recognized as such....it is not subject to our laws, moral, or ethics....but only to those of the woman.

it is purely the woman's decision if they want to use thier fetus material for stem cells.

i, personally, don't see an issue with this. it is STILL a culture a life. you are taking one *oppurtunity* for a life and using to enhance another life or *oppurtunity* for life.