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GreenEarthAl
05-31-2005, 01:15 PM
That other threads got ten billion words in it. Bloody hell.

When I was a little boy we went on welfare for about 6 months. That was typical of people on welfare: poor (obviously), white, dependant children, and off it in under 2 years. It really helped butress my family at a vulnerable time and my mom really took off after that.

At nearly the same time, Ronald Reagan (or as I like to refer to him, Satan), began villifying "welfare Queens" and enraging middle American about a phenominon that barely existed, using an example that did not exist at all. He told the story of a Chicago Cadliac Welfare queen and the story got reported at face value and repeated as true. It certainly wasn't the whole key to his election, there were Iran hostages and Oil embargoes and what not, but very much in the mix was his welfare villification and distortion.

It wasn't until after the election that people began looking for the supposed welfare queen and discovered that no such cadillac queen existed in Chicago and so elements of the liberal media (when there was a such thing) tried to debunk the story but they got shouted down by Conservatarian think tanks repeating the story over and over even louder with more and more indignation. "Well of CORSE there are rotund black women selling their food stamps and driving around in a Cadillac! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!" with no evidence. But the echo chamber needs no evidence.

The people in the mid eighties who started complaining about welfare's habbit forming tendencies and family destroying nature were in fact, Liberals. All kinds of liberal sociologists, adademics, and even rap musicians were crying about how the welfare system traps the poor in a cycle of dependency long before the Contract on America stole their homework for the 104th Congress Party.

Bill Clinton made some rhetorical overtures to "Mend it, don't end it", but really, what the hell did he care? He's already rich. He had sex with interns or some other business to occupy his time and coudn't be bothered with fighting for anything he'd promised us he'd fight for.



So anyway. QDrop says he feels bad for the children. Fine. Let's start there. Children don't ask to be born into any one family over another. How is it affording them an equal opportunity if they have admitedly inferior education? Inferior nutrition? Inferior child care? Inferior family support structures.

Clearly society can't equalize the playing feild completely, but why do we bear no responsability at all when we see disadvantaged children and wash our hands of them?

On the nature vs nurture argument I come down heavily on the side of nurture. That is to say that we are a product of our environment first and foremost. Our experiences shape who we are far more than any other factors.

And I am an athiest. But I see a absolute crystal clear logic in the golden rule. It makes absolute sense to me that human relations work best when we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I firmly believe that with as poor as I was born, as poor as I am now, and how close my life has taken me to the edge many, many times over, I am easily one or two life events away from being a WAY different person. I thrive, but I have needed every single person that has stopped to help me, teach me and reach me. Somewhere there is a six year old kid who is not going to have the same quality of mentorship as this six year old that you are going to mentor some day soon. And twenty years from now you are going to still be here, on the Beastie Boys MB, writing some 10 billion word essay about how six year old #1 made his own bad choices and how your six year old pulled himself up by his bootstraps and overcame adversity.

catatonic
05-31-2005, 01:39 PM
Why did Reagan have to start this whole mess? When I was born too.

GreenEarthAl
05-31-2005, 02:04 PM
Here's some Tim Wise articles in case anyone feels like reading some Tim Wise:

http://www.zmag.org/RaceWatch/denial.htm

http://www.progressivetrail.org/articles/040610Wise.shtml

catatonic
05-31-2005, 02:19 PM
Here's a thought: what if someone gets schizophrenia? The medicine is very expensive and probably makes them tired. They have to work and the money goes to the medicine. If they don't take the medicine they will not be able to work properly. They can't raise a family unless they can get a higher paying job. Nobody is going to give charity to pay for their medicine unless the drug companies will cover them. Medicaid is only for those who don't save up money. Is it their fault?

What about them huh?

ms.peachy
05-31-2005, 03:01 PM
When I was a little boy we went on welfare for about 6 months. That was typical of people on welfare: poor (obviously), white, dependant children, and off it in under 2 years. It really helped butress my family at a vulnerable time and my mom really took off after that.


Me too. (Except I was, you know, a girl.) For about two years after my parnets divorced, when I was 9-10. It allowed my mom the possibility of taking night classes to get her nursing degree, so that she could get a decent job and get off of it. I don't know how well our family ultimately would have done without that leg-up.

GreenEarthAl
06-01-2005, 08:35 AM
Hi ms. peachy.

Qdrop
06-01-2005, 10:21 AM
When I was a little boy we went on welfare for about 6 months. That was typical of people on welfare: poor (obviously), white, dependant children, and off it in under 2 years. It really helped butress my family at a vulnerable time and my mom really took off after that. that is exactly how welfare should be used. bravo.

i PERSONALLY can attest to gross manipulation and abuse of this system.
"cadillac queen"..no.

but "look, i don't want you to hire me....i make more on welfare. i just need to go on interviews so they don't take my checks away" i CAN attest to.

working as cashier at a grocery store...and seeing women come through with beautifully expensive hairstyles, brand new nails, leather jackets and jewlery up the wazoo, along with a pager....
and they hand me food stamps to pay for thier food.

watching my girls sister have her 4th baby last year while on still on welfare (she's had ALL 4 on welfare) while living with 8 other people in a city home in the 19th ward.
suddenly, when the gov't forced her to get a job or lose all her benefits...she suddenly found one working at nursing home which paid decent money.

first hand knowledge, man.
no bullshit anecdotes....real shit, man.

that's what i base alot of my sentiments on.



Bill Clinton made some rhetorical overtures to "Mend it, don't end it", but really, what the hell did he care? He's already rich. He had sex with interns or some other business to occupy his time and coudn't be bothered with fighting for anything he'd promised us he'd fight for. god, why is it always about his penis? why?

So anyway. QDrop says he feels bad for the children. Fine. Let's start there. Children don't ask to be born into any one family over another. How is it affording them an equal opportunity if they have admitedly inferior education? Inferior nutrition? Inferior child care? Inferior family support structures. i wholeheartedly agree. BREAK THE CYCLE!!

Clearly society can't equalize the playing feild completely, but why do we bear no responsability at all when we see disadvantaged children and wash our hands of them? preach on.

On the nature vs nurture argument I come down heavily on the side of nurture. That is to say that we are a product of our environment first and foremost. Our experiences shape who we are far more than any other factors. both are significant factors (nature and nuture). how much is still speculation.

And I am an athiest. But I see a absolute crystal clear logic in the golden rule. It makes absolute sense to me that human relations work best when we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. agreed. (though i'm an agnostic... not an athiest)

I firmly believe that with as poor as I was born, as poor as I am now, and how close my life has taken me to the edge many, many times over, I am easily one or two life events away from being a WAY different person. I thrive, but I have needed every single person that has stopped to help me, teach me and reach me. Somewhere there is a six year old kid who is not going to have the same quality of mentorship as this six year old that you are going to mentor some day soon. so we fix the system that brings so many so close to edge. welfare alone is NOT how you fix that system.

And twenty years from now you are going to still be here, on the Beastie Boys MB, writing some 10 billion word essay about how six year old #1 made his own bad choices and how your six year old pulled himself up by his bootstraps and overcame adversity. if one can, why can't the other.
that question will always be there....

Freedom Toast
06-01-2005, 11:28 AM
I don't care if EVERYBODY abuses welfare......I see our gov't wasting billions of more $$$$ in other programs. Let's get the military industrial complex off welfare first.....

SobaViolence
06-01-2005, 03:43 PM
I don't care if EVERYBODY abuses welfare......I see our gov't wasting billions of more $$$$ in other programs. Let's get the military industrial complex off welfare first.....


(!) (y) (!)

EN[i]GMA
06-01-2005, 04:11 PM
How about we end government waste completely, in all areas?

yeahwho
06-01-2005, 04:15 PM
I don't care if EVERYBODY abuses welfare......I see our gov't wasting billions of more $$$$ in other programs. Let's get the military industrial complex off welfare first.....

Concise, brief, short, terse, to the point, succinct Mr. Toast, Bravo! (y)

GreenEarthAl
06-02-2005, 09:23 AM
that is exactly how welfare should be used. bravo.

i PERSONALLY can attest to gross manipulation and abuse of this system.
"cadillac queen"..no.

but "look, i don't want you to hire me....i make more on welfare. i just need to go on interviews so they don't take my checks away" i CAN attest to.

working as cashier at a grocery store...and seeing women come through with beautifully expensive hairstyles, brand new nails, leather jackets and jewlery up the wazoo, along with a pager....
and they hand me food stamps to pay for thier food.

watching my girls sister have her 4th baby last year while on still on welfare (she's had ALL 4 on welfare) while living with 8 other people in a city home in the 19th ward.
suddenly, when the gov't forced her to get a job or lose all her benefits...she suddenly found one working at nursing home which paid decent money.

first hand knowledge, man.
no bullshit anecdotes....real shit, man.

that's what i base alot of my sentiments on.


Right. In that case we have most of the exact same problems with institutionalized dependency. The only exception that I might is that I might be less inclined to regard it as my business if people have cultural proclivities that determine how they spend their money. i.e. and Italian American family on welfare might save up to buy a suit for their children and call it "their Sunday Best" and reguard it as an investment and understand that it afords them some measure of pride if they ever have to attend a formal event or what have you (we typically regard this as good AND none of our business anyway). Yet an inner city black family might buy a running suit for their children which might afford them the same measure of pride in their respective community and not only is it totally our business now to second guess them up down and sideways, but they may as well just hand over their chequebook to us because we are the only qualified lot to prioritize their purchases.

But anyway, we agree more than we disagree. And the simple truth is that, as much as the welfare systdem has been evicerated, it could still mange to do more qualitatively with less. But it shouldn't have to make do. Half our national budget shouldn't be going to weapons of conquest and mass destruction. Half of the rest of our money shouldn't be going to debt servicing (unless Enigma's right and we actually should be spending all our money on debt servicing). We SHOULD have plenty of money to address what ails our society.

But the people in power WANT it to ail our society. That's what KEEPS them in power.

EN[i]GMA
06-02-2005, 11:30 AM
Let's just say, I might not be so god damned crazy when it comes to the budget if we weren't drowning in debt.

Debt is bad.

We fix that problem, we have flexibility.

catatonic
06-02-2005, 08:18 PM
So cut all programs except expand Health Care and expand on programs that pay the government back like scientific research, reform welfare, and pass good laws. We need a Democrat to help with this