Atheism and Morality

[Funkaloyd]

Didn't want to drag the other thread (url=http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=51135&page=3) any further off-topic.

This is a sad effect of atheism, people don't want to care for the weak.
Hitler used atheism and Darwinism quite persuasively to that end. Where do you draw the line at becoming a fascist?

First, atheism and Darwinism aren't synonymous. There were atheists long before Darwin's time.

Regarding Hitler and Nazism in particular: http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/12/far04041.html
"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"
"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
And as for eugenics in general, the "science" arose out of a totally unscientific and mistaken interpretation of the Theory of Evolution. Contrary to the beliefs of certain philosophers, there's no way to escape natural selection. Selective breeding can be used to strengthen a species, but there's no reason to believe that strengthening the human race through eugenics is any more important than allowing for individual freedom. The Theory of Evolution is a description of the way things are, not the way things should be.

if he believed the Book of Mormon he'd be different.
Like Russell Henderson (http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/05/gay.attack.trial.03/)'s different?

...But anyway, atheism is the lack of belief in a god or the gods, nothing more. It has no system of moral beliefs associated with it; there are atheists who are serial killers and atheists who are more godly than most Christians, and ultimately their lack of belief in any god(s) has nothing to do with their other beliefs.

[catatonic]

Thanks for the correction. I don't know what came over me.

I haven't known too many Latter-day Saints to go around killing people like that, and they get excommunicated for such behavior.

I should have focused my attention more on Qdrop, who I felt developed his behavior from bad influences.

I do think that the dog-eat-dog kind of atheist is not too helpful to spciety, but it was wrong of me to make any sort of assumption about how many atheists are of that type.

[ms.peachy]

I do think that the dog-eat-dog kind of atheist is not too helpful to spciety
Personally I don't think the "I am allowed to exploit every resource in the world because God put it there for me to use it so therefore everything I do to make money is sanctioned by our great holy lord Jesus" kind of Christians are particularly helpful either.

[D_Raay]

Personally I don't think the "I am allowed to exploit every resource in the world because God put it there for me to use it so therefore everything I do to make money is sanctioned by our great holy lord Jesus" kind of Christians are particularly helpful either.
Amen.

[Qdrop]

I should have focused my attention more on Qdrop, who I felt developed his behavior from bad influences.

I do think that the dog-eat-dog kind of atheist is not too helpful to spciety, but it was wrong of me to make any sort of assumption about how many atheists are of that type.

oh, for fuck's sake.

"bad behavior"?
please, oh moral one....please explain...

[Ace42]

"bad behavior"?
please, oh moral one....please explain...

He means you are a child-molestor and anti-semite.

[catatonic]

Personally I don't think the "I am allowed to exploit every resource in the world because God put it there for me to use it so therefore everything I do to make money is sanctioned by our great holy lord Jesus" kind of Christians are particularly helpful either.

Yeah, I agree. Christianity doesn't solve that problem. Mormonism tries to but doesn't always solve that problem.

[ASsman]

Yeah, I agree. Christianity doesn't solve that problem. Mormonism tries to but doesn't always solve that problem.
How..? AFAIK "The Church" doesn't take any stances ON ANYTHING that isn't within it's walls.

[catatonic]

The Church takes a stance on protecting the earth although I wish it would speak up more about it. We also funnel a great deal of money into humanitarian aid for the world and a perpetual education fund for people in third world countries. The Church has always said in scripture that we shouldn't judge our fellow human beings to withhold substance from them that they need. The Church has set a good example for people in how it treats it's members, such as giving them unconditional welfare if they will really seek work. The Church also tries to get people to pay fair wages to people, for instance with a raised minimum wage at BYU.

General Conferences are expressed to the world, although they are often more concerned with faith and repentance of other things.

[catatonic]

If all the Christians were Mormon poverty would be eradicated among all except those who chose to live in it.

[Funkaloyd]

Which is why all Christians will never be Mormons. I think it was Documad who said something about people choosing the easiest religion, and Protestantism requires nothing other than belief.

they get excommunicated for such behavior.
And you're not allowed to pray for them, right?

[ASsman]

Borderline communism. Christians are all about greed and self wealth, they would never accept Mormonism...

[Qdrop]

ya know...

i could go into a longwinded diatribe about how religion is in no way neccessary to live a moral life...it actually tends to promote IMmorality.

but whats the point?

90% of the peeps on here already know that...and the others wouldn't change thier minds....

[catatonic]

I don't know if you're not allowed to pray for them. I've never heard that and I doubt it's true.

I've said that if Christians were Mormon we'd eradicate poverty among all those who wouldn't choose it and I've said repeatedly that Mormonism is different than most Christianity in that Mormonism requires works whereas many Christian religions just require belief, and I will say that the works Mormonism requires will lead people to have a desirable kind of society (people elect Mormons; they are way overrepresented in US government).

I say nothing about a Christian religion in general and if it produces racers who push scriptures in people's face but then say they don't do anything to help I agree with you, and I think most Christian religions are like that, but not Mormonism.

[Ace42]

I've said that if Christians were Mormon we'd eradicate poverty

Hell yeah, hock those golden / platinum plates and buy some rice.

[Qdrop]

i've never seen catotonic so fuckin pompous and self-righteous before.

[STANKY808]

Another one that has chosen the correct god.

It's amazing to me how much of that permeates all fiery tales... I mean religions.

[catatonic]

Sorry, but the CATO Institute is trying to take welfare away. If they did, then from their own words those with mental health, physical health, social, drug, and education problems would get temporary help and then be left to starve. Democrat-leaners ought to unite against this as it is a new form of fascism.

As for religion, I'm just trying to convert people, not doing a very good job. I do think a lot of Christian religions out there are saying if you believe then you don't have to do anything good and you're saved, and I don't like this. I think it's a crummy religion because then they go out and commit adultery or commit crimes or something. They think my religion is crummy, so we're even.

[Documad]

edit: Sorry, I don't know what possessed me to come in here.

[EN[i]GMA]

Well, this is going absolutely nowhere.

Another great waste of bandwidth.

[ms.peachy]

As for religion, I'm just trying to convert people...

Oh, is that all?

[catatonic]

I believe following God is the only source of happiness and not following Him is following the devil which is the only source of unhappiness, that even atheists follow God in some ways, so yes trying to convert you to bring you happiness is all I'm doing.

On the other hand, I'm no better than any of you and I absolutely respect that you disagree with me. I hold nothing against any of you nor do I judge any of you, including racer, to be evil.

I'm just making this worse aren't I? :confused:

[ms.peachy]

I believe following God is the only source of happiness and not following Him is following the devil which is the only source of unhappiness, that even atheists follow God in some ways, so yes trying to convert you to bring you happiness is all I'm doing.

On the other hand, I'm no better than any of you and I absolutely respect that you disagree with me. I hold nothing against any of you nor do I judge any of you, including racer, to be evil.
It's nice to know that you don't judge me or think I'm evil or anything, even though I'm following the devil. And the fact that you're only looking out for my happiness because you truly know what's best for me and everybody else in the world isn't even the least bit patronising at all!

I'm just making this worse aren't I? :confused:
hey, go with that feeling.

[Ace42]

Racer stang is evil. Not in a conscious or psychopathic way, nor even an overtly hostile or malevolent way. No, I mean it in the sense that all stupidity is evil, because all of the worst human tradgedies have come about through ignorance.

Evil in the banal "I am ok to drive, I only had four or five beers..." sense. Evil in the "I'm doing god's work by burning the heretics, it's the only way to save their immortal souls, they'll thank me in the afterlife" sense.

[ASsman]

I believe following God is the only source of happiness and not following Him is following the devil which is the only source of unhappiness, that even atheists follow God in some ways, so yes trying to convert you to bring you happiness is all I'm doing.

On the other hand, I'm no better than any of you and I absolutely respect that you disagree with me. I hold nothing against any of you nor do I judge any of you, including racer, to be evil.

I'm just making this worse aren't I? :confused:
Hahaha, hard isn't it. One of the reasons I don't feel bad about giving up on the LSD(LDS.. whoops, the devil made me do it) Church. Double standards and the such.. "We respect your opinions and religion, but we are right, and standing outside your door with the book of mormon/truth so step off"... etc.

But that is more of a general flaw in all religions...

[catatonic]

Well hey, if you want evidence for my church try reading Echoes & Evidences of the Book of Mormon. I'll buy any of you a copy if you'll read half of it. Maybe that will make it better.

I was against my Church until I read that book.

[ms.peachy]

you remember just a few posts ago, when I said "go with that feeling"?

I really, really meant that.

[Funkaloyd]

I figure that if he's going to preach, he might as well do it here.

[Ace42]

He is easily the least irritating out of all the bible-thumpers.

[Qdrop]

He is easily the least irritating out of all the bible-thumpers.

yes, but if you compare him to losers....

;)

[racer5.0stang]

I say nothing about a Christian religion in general and if it produces racers who push scriptures in people's face but then say they don't do anything to help I agree with you, and I think most Christian religions are like that, but not Mormonism.

On the other hand, I'm no better than any of you and I absolutely respect that you disagree with me. I hold nothing against any of you nor do I judge any of you, including racer, to be evil.

Racer stang is evil. Not in a conscious or psychopathic way, nor even an overtly hostile or malevolent way. No, I mean it in the sense that all stupidity is evil, because all of the worst human tradgedies have come about through ignorance.

It is interesting that I still come up in your conversations, even though it has been quite a while since I have posted.

If mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, wouldn't they fall under the umbrella that is Christianity? Would they not be just another demonination? But they try and and place themselves outside of that umbrella. Could their reason(s) be that they truly believe that all Christianity is wrong exept for them or that they truly believe in something totally different and just use terminology associated with Christanity to fool the masses?

[catatonic]

1 2 3 Can you just PM me your questions about Mormonism? This makes us both look worse than we already do.

Mormons don't say they aren't Christians. They say they're not protestant. Protestant religions are formed of man. Mormons actually believe that God and Jesus reestablished the original Church. In fact, a lot of lost archaic facets of Christianity are found in Mormonism, like the belief that man can become God, which is also lost Kabbilism. There is definitely some substance to the claim. No serious Christian critic has disproved it. In fact at lds.org you can hear the Library of Congress holding a meeting where scholars both Mormon and nonMormon discuss Joseph Smith. But that won't help you... you just fired that question so you could start attacking Mormonism I'm guessing.

[Funkaloyd]

If mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, wouldn't they fall under the umbrella that is Christianity? Would they not be just another demonination?
Do you believe that Satanism is just another denomination?










(I do).

[Ace42]

In the sense that it is based solely on Judeo-Christian teachings, I'd say Satanism is just another denomination. Much in the way that believing the world is flat is just another interpretation of the available scientific data. Admittedly it is a stupid was of interpreting it, based on a wilful misreading of the fundamental principles, but hey.

[Medellia]

If mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, wouldn't they fall under the umbrella that is Christianity? Would they not be just another demonination? But they try and and place themselves outside of that umbrella. Could their reason(s) be that they truly believe that all Christianity is wrong exept for them or that they truly believe in something totally different and just use terminology associated with Christanity to fool the masses?
Many Christians belive that Catholism isn't a form of Christianity. And even many that do still believe that Catholics are wrong. I'm sure many Catholics feel the same way about Protestants.

On a related note, right now the episode of Family Guy where Peter's Catholic father comes and he becomes the pope's bodyguard at the end. Great timing.

[catatonic]

I remember that episode. Welcome Medellia if you're new.

I'm just trying to help a few people with the afterlife while the Bush administration plays down global warming. (I'M SO FRUSTRATED ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:). Lol! I put mad which put a :mad: and then I put a closed paren and it changed it to smiling.

Saving civilization as we know it should be the top priority, not lying about it!

Thank you for not getting into a Mormon bash racer!

[Running_Beastie]

Catatonic: correct me if this is wrong, but I have heard that Mormons believe that Jesus was not God incarnate, but instead one of His great profits. I'm somewhat familiar with the Mormon faith, like I know about man being able to become God. I've only known a few Mormons, and one of them irritated the hell out of me because he was a religous right type that believed everyone else was going to hell and thought he was pretty much the smartest guy in the world when he wasn't nearly as smart as he thought. He was also a huge Bush fan that thought the man could pretty much do no wrong.

[Medellia]

I remember that episode. Welcome Medellia if you're new.
I'm not. Just a new name.

[ms.peachy]

Jesus was not God incarnate, but instead one of His great profits.
I just love this statement so much, I barely know where to begin.

[racer5.0stang]

Mormons actually believe that God and Jesus reestablished the original Church.

Which church would that be, exactly? Maybe you are refering to the one at Antioch? Or do you mean the church as described in Revelation which takes place AFTER the tribulation?

like the belief that man can become God

I'd like to know where that came from? Surely it is not man that says he can become God. Remember what happened to Lucifer when he tried it.

Isaiah 45:5,6

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Mormons don't say they aren't Christians.

Of course they don't say it in public, but that is what they believe.

Do you believe that Satanism is just another denomination?

Yes it is another denomination. The belief in Satan comes from the bible. For one to believe in Satan that same person must believe in God and Jesus Christ. It is strange that some people would rather side with the losing team and know the outcome in advance.

Many Christians belive that Catholism isn't a form of Christianity. And even many that do still believe that Catholics are wrong. I'm sure many Catholics feel the same way about Protestants.

As I said before, Christianity is a large umbrella. I for one, do not believe that most (if not all) of the traditions held by the Catholic Church are biblical, even though they present them as such. But that does not mean that they are not Christians. Many "churches" today are nothing more than social clubs for people to get together and drink coffee.

Apostasy has become the modern trend.

[catatonic]

Where do you come off as saying Mormons don't say they are Christian in private? You don't know that! I've been in a lot of private situations with Mormons, my whole life, and never have any of them expressed a feeling they weren't Christian.

Jesus was begotten of God, that's our belief. Begotten is different than born in that begotten is more like a copying. He was also a prophet. You may be confused with Islam.

I'm sorry the Mormon you knew supported Bush. The Church is politically neutral, it doesn't say who to vote for, but since a lot of Mormons are in Utah that's what you get a lot. More Mormons live in South America than North America, and they would probably be Democrats I'm guessing. The Church is socially conservative, like me, but economically liberal, like me.

[catatonic]

The same Church that had Jesus as the head and Peter as the head on Earth.

Satan may have tried to become God, but he did it by trying to overthrow God. We are trying to become Gods in accordance with God, and will never supercede Him.

[Funkaloyd]

The same Church that had Jesus as the head and Peter as the head on Earth.
You mean the Jewish sect.

[catatonic]

Well it's not nice to say it and it tends to annoy people, but yes we believe we are the Jewish sect now and they apostasized.

Some people say the Jewish sect is the seed of Abraham. Christ said out of stones God could raise up seed of Abraham, and while most of us believe we are literally sons of Abraham this saying suggests to me that people can be adopted into the House of Israel.

But that doesn't mean they won't be royally blessed. In the last days they will turn to Christ, be gathered, and the whole House of Israel will rule over the earth. There are great treasures in store for them.

[Funkaloyd]

I didn't know that. Most denominations seem to be in denial regarding Christ's own beliefs.

[Running_Beastie]

Ms. Peachy, I know my spelling was horrible there. I was pretty tired and was typing quickly when I wrote that so I didn't notice it. It is pretty funny, Jesus was one of God's profits, He lost money on Satan :rolleyes:

[ms.peachy]

Ms. Peachy, I know my spelling was horrible there. I was pretty tired and was typing quickly when I wrote that so I didn't notice it. It is pretty funny, Jesus was one of God's profits, He lost money on Satan :rolleyes:
I know it was an honest mistake, I just thought it was a really funny slip up, as it made for quite the double ententdre. Sorry if it seemed like I was mocking you, I didn't mean it that way - it just made me laugh.

[Qdrop]

can we get back to atheism (or secularism) and morality?

who the fuck cares about the mormon religion other than Catatonic?

think about it, the majority of us on here know the bulk of ALL religions to be completely fabricated lies....
arguing over which "lie" is better or worse seems rather trite, eh?


anyway....
i contend that secular belief is not only fully capable of supporting a moral, ethical lifestyle.....but promotes it BETTER than ANY religious belief or practice....

who wants a piece of that?

[Ace42]

arguing over which "lie" is better or worse seems rather trite, eh?

Given the US's current bi-partisan system, and this being a predominantly US-based political sub-forum, I find that rather ironic.

[wanton wench]

Personally I don't think the "I am allowed to exploit every resource in the world because God put it there for me to use it so therefore everything I do to make money is sanctioned by our great holy lord Jesus" kind of Christians are particularly helpful either.

i dont think anyone is really helpful to society! we are all just part of it!

[Qdrop]

Given the US's current bi-partisan system, and this being a predominantly US-based political sub-forum, I find that rather ironic.

oh, will you stay on topic!

[racer5.0stang]

The same Church that had Jesus as the head and Peter as the head on Earth.

How is it that the same church has two heads?

We are trying to become Gods in accordance with God, and will never supercede Him.

Where does this belief stem from?

Well it's not nice to say it and it tends to annoy people, but yes we believe we are the Jewish sect now and they apostasized.

In order for someone to be an apostate, they must have accepted the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the only way to heaven and then turn from that belief. Jews never believed (with the exception of Messianic Jews) this so they cannot be apostates.

Last I checked a person of true Jewish descent can trace their family back to Abraham. If you are not Jewish then you are a Gentile.

they would probably be Democrats I'm guessing

I thought that your church was politically neutral.

i contend that secular belief is not only fully capable of supporting a moral, ethical lifestyle.....but promotes it BETTER than ANY religious belief or practice....

By who's standards, yours or society's?

[Qdrop]

By who's standards, yours or society's?

societies.

basing it on natural law...

[Funkaloyd]

Are nature and goodness one and the same?

[Qdrop]

Are nature and goodness one and the same?

"good" and "bad" and morals and ethics are all man-made constructs....

nature runs on natural law.....it finds it's balance and has evolved to do so.
it's the anthropic principle.

there is no good or bad...only natural existence. in order to exist and survive in nature, you must adhere to natural laws that evolved with this existence.

we, as conscience creatures, put "good" labels like "moral" and "ethical" on things that seem to have a proclivity for survival.

[racer5.0stang]

societies.

basing it on natural law...

Survival of the fittest.

No mercy for the weak.

"good" and "bad" and morals and ethics are all man-made constructs....

Unfortunatly, not all follow the same morals.

Nature, no matter what location on the planet, seems to follow the same laws.

So who established and maintains the laws that nature adheres to? If nature is without conscience, then what constrains it to these laws?

[Qdrop]

Survival of the fittest.

No mercy for the weak.
that, over-all, has been the way of the land, yes.

however, with the advent of social creatures such as ourselves...particularly with societies as advanced as our own...
their can sometimes be benifits to carring for the weak...
public relations to appease others that have a construct for "ethical responsiblity for all", for one example.....



Unfortunatly, not all follow the same morals. then nature will dispatch of them...one way or the other.

Nature, no matter what location on the planet, seems to follow the same laws. yep.

So who established and maintains the laws that nature adheres to? If nature is without conscience, then what constrains it to these laws? anthropic principle.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/c-anthro.htm

religious types such as yourself may attempt to use this principle to advocate a "design" and thus, proof of a creator...

but what is really comes down to is "the things are the way they are, because we are here to observe them"

if things were not exactly as they are, we would not be here to point that out....

[catatonic]

How is it that the same church has two heads?
It only has one head, Jesus Christ. Peter is the head on Earth.


Where does this belief stem from?


In order for someone to be an apostate, they must have accepted the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the only way to heaven and then turn from that belief. Jews never believed (with the exception of Messianic Jews) this so they cannot be apostates.
An old lady told me they believed in Jesus. Who am I going to believe?

Last I checked a person of true Jewish descent can trace their family back to Abraham. If you are not Jewish then you are a Gentile.


Almost all of us believe our family goes back to Abraham, and for those of us who aren't we can be adopted. Jesus said out of stones God could raise up seed to Abraham.


I thought that your church was politically neutral.

It is. I'm basing my guess that they would be Democrat on the fact that they're poor and that a lot of poor people go Democrat. It has nothing to do with the Church. I could even be wrong.

Once again, I'm sorry to Jews for bothering them. I have a high respect for Judaism, and have even attended a synagogue a lot.

[racer5.0stang]

What is really funny is your inability to take a stand on something you believe without fear of offending someone.

Do you think that others on this board care if they offend someone by stating what they believe, religious or not?

[Ace42]

What is really funny is your inability to take a stand on something you believe without fear of offending someone.

That is preferable to you taking a stand on things you do not have even the most cursory understanding of.

[racer5.0stang]

That is preferable to you taking a stand on things you do not have even the most cursory understanding of.

The ability to totally understand every angle of something is not necessary to take a stand on the issue.

[Ace42]

The ability to totally understand every angle of something is not necessary to take a stand on the issue.

You are quite correct. However it *is* necessary to have an informed and valid opinion on the matter.

That you do not understand every (or even all the significant) angle of anything is a testament to your ignorance, and is why everything you say makes you look stupid, and why you are perpetually wrong about almost everything. It is also why you should shut the hell up.