Even more evidence of Israeli war-crimes

[Ace42]

It's funny, but all the Israelis I speak to always deny any knowledge (or even the possibility) of breaches of good conduct by IDF / Israeli armed forces no matter how much evidence is accumulated.

Once again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4605899.stm

More Israeli soldiers are stating, quite catergorically, that they were ordered to intentionally stoke the fires of the conflict, in a way that goes a long way to vindicating the "revenge" attacks commited by the Palestinian militants.

You'd think that the Israelis, of all people, would be resistant to commiting institutionalised hate-crimes.

But, on the other hand, the Zionist movement *was* pioneered by Germanic born Jews who grew up in exactly the same climate as Hitler and his lackies. It is not surprising that the hypocrits are so kean to take "an eye for an eye." And yes, that last sentance *was* filled with biblical sentiments.

[EN[i]GMA]

I really don't see the problem here.

In fact, I think there should be more revenge killings over there.

With time, the problem will solve itself.

[open letter]

no the problem will not solve its self

the only way to solve the problem is to creat an independant palestine ,into which israil is not aload to send its armed forces

or maybe just get rid of israil all together and just creat one country where the israilies and palastinians can live together ,that is if the jews where a bit more tolarant of the palastinians (not that there is any chance of that)

mite i not remind you that israil is considerd "holy land"to the muslims aswell and just because the bible says that the jews where promisted the land by moses doesn't mean they had the right to take it from the palastinians

[bobi]

It's funny, but all the Israelis I speak to always deny any knowledge (or even the possibility) of breaches of good conduct by IDF / Israeli armed forces no matter how much evidence is accumulated.


1.Then you didn't spoke with so many that you think.
2. Obviosly you didn"t spoke to me.
3.If you want to debate this issue you have to do this:
a) wright in spoken english, cause I hardly get when you wright like you use to wright.
b) tell me where you were born
c) where you live now
d) are you religies one
e) and tell me do you hate Israelis?

[bobi]

no the problem will not solve its self

the only way to solve the problem is to creat an independant palestine ,into which israil is not aload to send its armed forces

or maybe just get rid of israil all together and just creat one country where the israilies and palastinians can live together ,that is if the jews where a bit more tolarant of the palastinians (not that there is any chance of that)

mite i not remind you that israil is considerd "holy land"to the muslims aswell and just because the bible says that the jews where promisted the land by moses doesn't mean they had the right to take it from the palastinians
I think your first sugestion is more likely to happen, I don't see any chance of one country for the two of them.
Also I think the two of them are equal guilty for the situation now.
Israel for not giving them the occupated territories, and the Palestinians for not stopping the suicide bombers at pub's caffe shops and discotequies.
This is the infinit circle and how I see it.
Of course the world were waiting for them to make a solution a couple of years, which didn't happened. And now the world decide to go for the "road map" which say:
hey israelis give them back their lands!
and
hey palestinians stop bombing everything that move!

[Ace42]

1.Then you didn't spoke with so many that you think.

Yeah, admittedly 90% of the dozen Israelis I know is hardly a popular referendum.

2. Obviosly you didn"t spoke to me.

So you are disgusted by Israeli war crimes, and taking an active part in "putting your own house in order."

3.If you want to debate this issue you have to do this:
a) wright in spoken english, cause I hardly get when you wright like you use to wright.

What, like spelling "write" correctly, or using "speak" as the correct past participle instead of "spoke" which is the 3rd person?

b) tell me where you were born

Because where I was born has an impact on the Israelis denying their warcrimes?

c) where you live now

Because where I live has an impact on Israeli war-crimes?

d) are you religies one

Because my "religien" [SIC] has an impact on Israeli war-crimes?

e) and tell me do you hate Israelis?

Which ones? The ones that commit war-crimes, or the ones that deny war-crimes?

Why do you not ask F) - do I hate Germans that have commited war-crimes or deny the holocaust?

Need a white brush to help with white-washing that big fucking wall?

[EN[i]GMA]

no the problem will not solve its self

the only way to solve the problem is to creat an independant palestine ,into which israil is not aload to send its armed forces

or maybe just get rid of israil all together and just creat one country where the israilies and palastinians can live together ,that is if the jews where a bit more tolarant of the palastinians (not that there is any chance of that)

mite i not remind you that israil is considerd "holy land"to the muslims aswell and just because the bible says that the jews where promisted the land by moses doesn't mean they had the right to take it from the palastinians

The problem will solve itself when they're all dead.

If they cannot come to a peacable solution on their own, why help them? It is a private land-dispute.

If they cannot come to be peacable terms and act like civilized creatures, they deserve the endless war they're getting.

I feel for the innocents dying in this struggle, but it's up to them to solve the problem.

EDIT: And I feel no sympathy for the Palestinians due to their use of terrorism. Ditto for Isreal.

[bobi]

Yeah, admittedly 90% of the dozen Israelis I know is hardly a popular referendum.
Tell me where you met them and I'll told you what kind of israelis they are



So you are disgusted by Israeli war crimes, and taking an active part in "putting your own house in order."
MY house like the most houses aren't in the territories.



What, like spelling "write" correctly, or using "speak" as the correct past participle instead of "spoke" which is the 3rd person?
Yes that's what I ment, to be exuced for the speeling and I ask you not to write like I'm from english speaking country.



Because where I was born has an impact on the Israelis denying their warcrimes?
NO, cause it has an impact on you an your opinion.



Because where I live has an impact on Israeli war-crimes?
Even the job of your daddy has an impact on you.



Because my "religien" [SIC] has an impact on Israeli war-crimes?
I didn't ask for your religie, cause I know you are a muslim. I ask what kind of religien are you, like regular, like fanatic or something between.



Which ones? The ones that commit war-crimes, or the ones that deny war-crimes?
Aren't there other groups?

Why do you not ask F) - do I hate Germans that have commited war-crimes or deny the holocaust?
ALL those questions were to help me understanding where your pain came from, why dont you beliave in the peace procces and why do you see just one side in the conflict?

Need a white brush to help with white-washing that big fucking wall?
The problem with the wall is not why they are building it, but where.

Are you a serious man defending opinion or just a barking dog?
I know the answer so be reasonable

[bobi]

GMA']The problem will solve itself when they're all dead.

If they cannot come to a peacable solution on their own, why help them? It is a private land-dispute.

If they cannot come to be peacable terms and act like civilized creatures, they deserve the endless war they're getting.

I feel for the innocents dying in this struggle, but it's up to them to solve the problem.
This one reminds me the game "tell me where are you from, so i can tell you what kind of war-crimes your country did".
so give me a try enigma

[STANKY808]

How about the game "Guess which country the mossad is using a forged passport from?"

[Ace42]

Tell me where you met them and I'll told you what kind of israelis they are

On the internet in various random forums which were all international and apolitical, even more so than this one.

MY house like the most houses aren't in the territories.

That does not answer my question.

Yes that's what I ment, to be exuced for the speeling and I ask you not to write like I'm from english speaking country.

3.If you want to debate this issue you have to do this:
a) wright in spoken english, cause I hardly get when you wright like you use to wright

I write in formal English. I don't speak Hebrew, Sanskrit, Aramaic, Arabic, Persian, or any other language. If you want me to translate, the best I can do is Spanish, French, Ancient Latin / Greek / Anglo-Saxon or Welsh. beyond that, sorry, English is my mother-tongue.

NO, cause it has an impact on you an your opinion.

If I said that "because you were born in Israel, you are prejudiced and your opinion is immaterial" I'd be called an anti-semite. I am born in England, if you must know, and that has no bearing on my position on the Arab-Israeli conflict whatsoever. The UK government has been pro-active on BOTH sides of the arguement at various points of the disagreement over the last few decades, including the invasion of the Suez canal with Israel and France in the 50s, as well as supporting Zionism and partioning Palestine, not to mention supporting various Israeli governments during the last few decades. So do not DARE to imply that my nation is overtly anti-semtical due to our position on your nation-state.

Even the job of your daddy has an impact on you.

Yeah, Electronic engineers are responsible for the holocaust, right? The people who design the control circuits for the UK royal mint hate Jews? Feh.

I didn't ask for your religie, cause I know you are a muslim. I ask what kind of religien are you, like regular, like fanatic or something between.

I'm, not a muslim you dumbass self-important piece of shit. What, because I don't say "yeah, if the Jews kill people it's ok" I must be an anti-semite?!? I don't hold any truck with those hokey islamic fundamentalist guys, any more than I like your dogmatic bullshit.

You guys are commiting gross atrocities that insult the humanity of any right-thinking person, and yet if YOU do it it's ok?

FUCK YOU. If the Germans did what you were doing, they'd be called 4th reichists. But no, Jews do it? They are being perfectly reasonable. YOU GUYS ARE ACTING AS BAD AS HITLER DID, YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITS.

Aren't there other groups?

Indeed, there are - like the Jewish people who out of acts of conscience of biblical perogative feel the need to confess their sins to the world via the webpage mentioned in the article. And those people I feel the utmost sympathy for, just like the germans who feel guilty and have trouble sleeping because they had to smash the windows of Jewish businesses during the night of broken glass because they feared reprisals by their officious superiors if they didn't.

Those people are a silent (minority?) and need to reclaim Jersulem for themselves.

ALL those questions were to help me understanding where your pain came from, why dont you beliave in the peace procces and why do you see just one side in the conflict?

I see both sides of the conflict. As a neutral English person that has no axe to grind with other side, I am in a position to weigh up the pros and cons of both arguments, and put myself in the shoes of both the zionists and the palestinians. Guess what, your argument was found wanting. Want to know where my pain comes from? My pain comes from 6 million dead jews who suffered through no fate of their own, and their legacy is a nation that inflicts the same misery on millions of arabs without any sort of pity.

Hitler would be proud of what the Jews have become in Israel. Israel is the third reich concluded.

The problem with the wall is not why they are building it, but where.

What, through someone else's country? No shit.

Are you a serious man defending opinion or just a barking dog?
I know the answer so be reasonable

I am someone that is disgusted by the acts of your countrymen.

Think how you feel about the Germans that said "we didn't know that the Jews in the ghettos were being tortured and murdered and victimised"

Your countrymen are doing EXACTLY the same to the Palestinians as was done by the Germans unto the Jews.

The Israelis are the new Nazis.

[EN[i]GMA]

This one reminds me the game "tell me where are you from, so i can tell you what kind of war-crimes your country did".
so give me a try enigma

America.

This should be fun.

[open letter]

GMA']America.

This should be fun.
braking international law by invading iraq without un permission

holding prisoners without trail ,in inhumain conditions for long periods of time

tourchering prisoners in iraq

using neuclier wepons on japan when it was uncalled for

funding the israili army and thuse funding state the killing of thousands of inosent palastinians

,there are more

[yeahwho]

GMA']America.

This should be fun.

Culpability for US tax dollars is an interesting place to start.

Israel is due to receive $2.68 billion in aid: $2.2 billion in military aid and $480 million in civilian aid. $15.7 million, or 0.59%, will be deducted from this amount, under an across-the-board budget cut imposed on all items in the appropriations bill.

The aid's components will be determined according to US administration formula from the late 1990s at the initiative of then Israeli Minister of Finance Yaakov Neeman and former Ministry of Finance director general Ohad Marani. Under the formula, civilian aid will be cut by $120 million a year, until it is eliminated in 2008. At the same time, military aid will be increased by $60 million a year, to a ceiling of $2.4 billion, beginning in 2008.

Each year, Israel receives the largest share of US foreign aid, which totals $17 billion in the current fiscal year. Egypt is the second largest recipient of aid, with $1.9 billion. Jordan receives $464 million, after the 0.59% deduction.

In addition to the annual aid, the US has provided Israel with $9 billion in loan guarantees over three years, or $3 billion a year.

More blah blah blah (http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm)

[EN[i]GMA]

braking international law by invading iraq without un permission

Whose permission? The UN?

Sheah, I really give a fuck what they think.

And I'm against the Iraq war.


holding prisoners without trail ,in inhumain conditions for long periods of time

This is valid.


tourchering prisoners in iraq

Yep.


using neuclier wepons on japan when it was uncalled for

Totally uncalled for. I mean, Japan only killed what, 30 million people, we didn't have to do something totally horrific and kill 150,000...


funding the israili army and thuse funding state the killing of thousands of inosent palastinians

,there are more

Oh yes, the poor, innocent Palestininians. I have so much sympathy for the way they don't suicide bomb innocents daily.

[Ace42]

GMA']I mean, Japan only killed what, 30 million people

Are you sure you are not getting confused with Godzilla?

[EN[i]GMA]

Are you sure you are not getting confused with Godzilla?

Dammit, that's another U.S. atrocity.

Sorry Japan! Again.

[yeahwho]

Are you sure you are not getting confused with Godzilla?
The new Godzilla only killed 3 people, but some estimate it bored 150 million almost to death.

The old Godzilla was much more effective.

[freetibet]

I've heard there's even more evidence of Palestinian terror acts!............................................. ..........:p

The way to solve the problem is to make their women sterile.;]

[freetibet]

GMA']
Oh yes, the poor, innocent Palestininians. I have so much sympathy for the way they don't suicide bomb innocents daily.

Word :D

[bobi]

FUCK YOU. If the Germans did what you were doing, they'd be called 4th reichists. But no, Jews do it? They are being perfectly reasonable. YOU GUYS ARE ACTING AS BAD AS HITLER DID, YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITS.

Hitler would be proud of what the Jews have become in Israel. Israel is the third reich concluded.

The Israelis are the new Nazis.
You are full of hate man (n)
How can you want to soulve problems when only shit comes out from your mouth?
I know you are to young, want to change the world and so on.... but calm down. When I try to speak with you, the only thing you are doing is to diss me cause of my english.c'mon.
Also don't forget about the sources (sky news; cnn and internet sites) are they so inoccent or just chaising the breaknews money.
Listen now very carfully, I now we as Israelians are doing a lot of shit to the Palestinians, and it should STOP, but don't think they are like "milk and honey".
Let me tell you something, everywhere in the world when someones army is fighting someones guerila (like usa-iraq/afganistan russia- chechenia/afganistan) the army is looking very bad.
Cause if you don't shoot you"ll be dead, and if you shoot you"ll maybe kill some human sheald they are using.
I don't know if you will beliave me or not but almost every day in the 4 years I was in the army, the comanders were talking like: they are human beings, they are not diferent from us, your political visions shouldn't make you act like this or like that, we don't want to kill anybody and we don't want any casualties and so on and so on. beliave it or not.

[Ace42]

You are full of hate man

Yeah, heaven forbid that I should hate liars, hypocrits, murderers and war-criminals...

And those Israelis, they just love their Palestinian neighbours. Right before they gun them down in the street.

How can you want to soulve problems when only shit comes out from your mouth?

Well, I'd start by not downplaying the acts of terror perpetrated by your government, obfuscating the truth, engaging in "tit-for-tat" retribution tactics, or dispossesing an entire nation.

Oh, but that would involve your countrymen not acting like jerks... So I guess that plan is out of the window.

When I try to speak with you, the only thing you are doing is to diss me cause of my english.c'mon.

You brought up *MY* English, dumbass. If you don't want to get criticised for it, don't bring it up.

Also don't forget about the sources (sky news; cnn and internet sites) are they so inoccent or just chaising the breaknews money.

"The sources" are numerous ex-members of the IDF and Israeli army - and who knows better the atrocities they are commiting than themselves?

Or let me guess, the IDF are "anti-semites" and thus untrustworthy?

If the source doesn't say "oh those nasty Palestinians are blame for everything" then it's a lie and not worth listening to...

YOUR GUYS ARE WAR-CRIMINALS, AND THEY ARE AS MUCH TO BLAME AS THE PALESTINIANS, IF NOT MORE SO.

If you do not concur with that sentence then you are a brain-washed hypocritical moron living in a dream-world. Infact, it is incredibly clear that you are brain-washed, as your first reaction to my post was "it's clear you are a moslem" - what absolute tosh.

It is precisely the sort of reaction I'd expect from a delusional and self-righteous Israeli jew. "It can't be that there might be some truth in it, it can't be that incontrovertable facts are showing that Jews are doing bad things, because all Jews are perfect. It *must* be that he is a moslem, and as such has an irrational hate for Jews!"

How goddamn stereotypical of you. It's no wonder the Arab world hates you guys so much when you come out with shit like that. And that is before you bring up the slaughter of the innocents...

Listen now very carfully, I now we as Israelians are doing a lot of shit to the Palestinians, and it should STOP, but don't think they are like "milk and honey".

No-one has said, and no-one thinks they are "perfect" and that they aren't commiting atrocities of their own. Plenty of Israelis have said, to me, in person words to the effect - "We do our best to help the Palestinians, they can't even police themselves, and look how they repay us..."

Scarily similar to the sentiments held by the Germans in the 30s towards the Jews there, isn't it?

Cause if you don't shoot you"ll be dead, and if you shoot you"ll maybe kill some human sheald they are using.

I think you'll find those are action movies. Most guerrllia warfare tactics involve being shot by someone you didn't even know was there, and then them disappearing. Hard to fight, but killing random civillians just because "they might be potential combatants" is no better than the Palestinians suicide bombing schoolkids because "they might grow up to be potential soldiers."

You might as well say "if the Palestinians don't fight, they'll be dead." - congratulations on justifying their position.

Perhaps you should rewrite the above quotation to read "'Cause if you don't shoot, the Palestinian children will throw stones at you, which will bounce harmlessly off your US made kevlar bullet-proofed armour, and if you shoot you'll maybe kill some kids that no-one (important) will miss and your buddies will slap you on the back, and you can go have a beer with your squaddy mates and brag about another day sucessfully defending your country from its rightful inhabitants."

I don't know if you will beliave me or not but almost every day in the 4 years I was in the army, the comanders were talking like

I do not. There are plenty of commanders who were more than happy to look the other way when their soldiers were using the batteries of their walkie-talkies to electrocute the ear-lobes of random Palestinians they picked up, or when they shook down a random old man in the street, destroying the crate of eggs he was carrying, and beating him senseless despite him "not doing anything wrong."

Plenty of your boys are confessing, and your army and government is doing its damned best to censor them because "it might inflame the conflict."

Yeah, the truth about what you guys are doing probably WILL inflame the conflict. Fortunately, the "truth" doesn't concern the official Israeli position - as anyone who cares about the truth is an "anti-semite" (despite the Palestinians being a semite) and thus their position is irrelevant.

[bobi]

If the source doesn't say "oh those nasty Palestinians are blame for everything" then it's a lie and not worth listening to...

first, don't put words to my mouth

Infact, it is incredibly clear that you are brain-washed, as your first reaction to my post was "it's clear you are a moslem" - what absolute tosh.

second, i'm not going to argue with you because you are arogant, you don't even listen to what I'm saying and when you are listenning you don't beliave it. You are not open-minded to other opinions. All I'm hearing from you is war-crime war- crime (the shit sometimes we do here is far from being a war- crime), If you are right where is the suprime court of Hauge.
third, don't start with the hipocrit bullshit, cause UK France Spain Portugal Holland USA and many others economics are based on the fondation of
Africans, South Central and North Americans, Asians, Australians natunal treasures and exploating and killing thousents of inoccent people. But how I said don't start with this.
fourth, if you want to be more objective listen to all the sides and then conclude.
fifth, I see you don't know nothing about the middle-east conflict, so start reading books (watch out who right it) and dont buy everything on cnn.
Sixth, I know you want justice, me too, beliave me.
seventh, a few things I'm sure you dont know:
Israel supllies water, electicity and co. to the palestinians - so if we really want to kill them we were cutting the suplly and bringing them to the stone era.
the regular israeli doesn't hate the regular palestinian and vise versa. only the fondamentalistic shits from both side that you are seeing on cnn and sky want kill each other.
even today there are thousends of palestinian working in Israel. In 2000 before the shit start again they were tens of thousends working every day here. We want them couse they were good workers and they want our money. Also thousends of israelies were going to their cities to eat or somethig. Also going to casino. In few words we know how to live together when we are not fighting.
one more thing I got to say and it's the most important
borders didn't separate good people from bad people, they only separate people who thinks the other side is bad
peace to you to Palestain and Israel

[Ace42]

first, don't put words to my mouth

That's rich coming from you, hypocritical boob. You're the one who put a faith in mine...

second, i'm not going to argue with you because you are arogant,

And a Moslem according to you, so it goes to show what your opinion is worth.

You are not open-minded to other opinions.

No, I am open minded to other opinions. However, when I weigh up their merits and find they are based on propoganda and distortions, then I conclude they are worthless. This is inline with Socratic method, and as such is a perfectly valid way of weighing up whether an opinion is valid or not.

All I'm hearing from you is war-crime war- crime (the shit sometimes we do here is far from being a war- crime), If you are right where is the suprime court of Hauge.

The same place it is when the American occupying forces commit them. Looking the other way. Infact, the UN has signed NUMEROUS resolutions condemning the behaviour of Israel, and every single time the US (often alone) has vetoed sanctions against your nation.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Let me guess, the "Jewish virtual library" is anti-semitic and is propogating anti-Israeli propoganda too...

third, don't start with the hipocrit bullshit

If the cap fits...

cause UK France Spain Portugal Holland USA and many others economics are based on the fondation of
Africans, South Central and North Americans, Asians, Australians natunal treasures and exploating and killing thousents of inoccent people. But how I said don't start with this.

They are not founded on killing off the indiginous population of the land they inhabit. If you want to make a comparison, then for the UK to be as bad as Israel they'd have to be evicting the Welsh and Scots from their countries, and shooting large numbers of them randomly. The closest analogy is Northern Ireland, and when UK soldiers went around killing Irish people in exactly the same sort of way your guys are, the government and the people shouted from the treetops that it was wrong, and it was dealt with. You might not've noticed, but the IRA have been quite naughty of late (killing a chap in a pub, and stealing money from a bank) - and UK soldiers have NOT being ordered to find a group of Catholics and execute them as "revenge".

fourth, if you want to be more objective listen to all the sides and then conclude.

If you were more objective, then you'd see the article I cited quoted IDF soldiers as the source. Or do Israeli soldiers not count? Or is it that as well as the Palestinian side (they claim they get shot by IDF people with out provocation) and the IDF side (they admit they shoot Palestinians without provocation) there is ANOTHER side that I have to take into account? Would this side be the side of the war-crime denyers like yourself who think they know what the IDF is doing better than the soldiers who are perpetrating the crimes themselves?

fifth, I see you don't know nothing about the middle-east conflict, so start reading books (watch out who right it) and dont buy everything on cnn.

Actually, the Arab-Israeli conflict was the sole subject of my history coursework. Everything from the roots of the Zionist movement, to the partioning of Jerusalem, to the six day war, to anglo-french-israeli actions in Suez, to Black September, to plane hijackings, to the assassination of Rabin, etc etc.

You "saw" that I was a Moslem, even though I am not... So it is clear you can see no further than the end of your own nose. And we don't have CNN in the UK, dumbass. However, what a surprise that once again you know better than *IDF SOLDIERS* as well as international unbiased (infact, technically pro-Israeli) news agencies... And you called *ME* arrogant. Boob.

Sixth, I know you want justice, me too, beliave me.

Put your own house in order, then.

seventh, a few things I'm sure you dont know:
Israel supllies water, electicity and co. to the palestinians - so if we really want to kill them we were cutting the suplly and bringing them to the stone era.

Yes, I am sure the Palestinians are very greatful for the electricity and water which doesn't run into the shanty towns refugees have to flee to after Israel confiscates their houses, or the fully plumbed piles of rubble that are where they used to live before Israel BOMBED IT FLAT...

the regular israeli doesn't hate the regular palestinian and vise versa. only the fondamentalistic shits from both side that you are seeing on cnn and sky want kill each other.

What is it with you and CNN? I am not a Moslem, I do not watch CNN... What a hypocrit... And you might not hate the Palestinians, but you sure as hell don't care enough to stop your government and military from persecuting them. I'm sure plenty of Nazis would have said "the regular German doesn't hate the regular Jew and vice versa. Only the fundamentalists you see at Nuremberg want to kill..." - they'd've said exactly that while they sat back and let their military and their government cart the jews off to the death-camps.

In few words we know how to live together when we are not fighting.

So do cats and dogs...

[bobi]

To Ace42
First of all I think I have to apologies to you of being so self- Idon'tknowwhat (calling you a muslim, and calling you that you don't know nothing about the conflict and so on), so I'm sorry, I should be ashemed or something.
Second let me clear myself about a couple of things:
When I use the word cnn, I mean the media, and not specific cnn news program.
When I ask you about "your" english I didn't diss you, it just were on high level to me, even if you were speaking regular.
When I said the western economic is based on the fondation of exploating the national treasures and killing by the way inoccent people in rest of the world, I ment it. I didn't want to compare to Ireland-UK conflict, cause IRA bombs only UK army bases, empty cars, or official buildings, but they call on the phone before the exposion, and not UK schools, cause if they, I'm sure what would happen to them.
I know that the occupation turns us to bad people, but not because we want to kill them or we wish them something bad, it's because as the time fly we are more regular with the bullshit situation, witch is pretty fucked up situation and one morning you find yourself on the edge of morality. The more shit we eat, the more used to it we get. And it sucks.
Something about history. Sometimes one can't learn from the book what really happened, the more close you get to the middle-east, it's more true. For example: Who win the war in 73'? It depends on who do you ask. If one search in the history books, he'll find Israel defided the arab armies. If you ask the egiptians, the will tell you that they won cause they get Suez back, after the peace agreetment. And if you ask me, I tell you that we won the military actions, but since then we are loosing.
Back in 67' and 73' when Israel get all this teritories, they take it in the way to give them back and make peace agreetment, for sure (100%). But somewhere in the way they became more greedy. The dumb-ass sentelmenters just want more and more it's never enought for them. From people who were preising the Lord they become preising the goddamn land.
The political map here is very complicated, thats why we got this paradocs peace agreetment, so listen, when the "left" party (people who want peace) and want to give back the teritories to the palestinians,rules, the right "pull down" the "left" primeminister, so the peacemakers can't do peace agreement. But when the right(those who prefer teritories and not human rights) is rulling and USA UK and France are making presure on them to go to agreement and of course the "left" is voting for the agreement. So the paradocs is who want peace can't achiave it, until the "right wing" is rulling. Admite it's a really fucked up situation.

p.s. waiting

[Ali]

Bobi if there were more people like you in the Middle East, there'd be less violence. Sadly, it seems that the extremist minority are fucking it up for everybody else.

Let's hope the balance shifts - soon.

[bobi]

Bobi if there were more people like you in the Middle East, there'd be less violence. Sadly, it seems that the extremist minority are fucking it up for everybody else.

Let's hope the balance shifts - soon.
HOPE is all I got

[Ace42]

To Ace42
First of all I think I have to apologies to you of being so self- Idon'tknowwhat (calling you a muslim, and calling you that you don't know nothing about the conflict and so on), so I'm sorry, I should be ashemed or something.

And I appologise for not making myself clearer for foreign-language speakers. I think the communication barrier probably contributed more to the misunderstandings in this thread than anything else. It is a shame that a more confident English speaking Israeli was not available to translate the more difficult paragraphs for you. That would probably solved a lot of miscommunication.

When I said the western economic is based on the fondation of exploating the national treasures and killing by the way inoccent people in rest of the world, I ment it.

I would concur, to some degree, and with certain qualifications. I'd say it is more capitalism (which is not the sole property of the west) that is to blame for the economic exploitation of poorer nations. If you accept that, then you must bear in mind that the main alternative (communism) is also the product of the west, even though it is currently only operating in the far-east (orient).


I didn't want to compare to Ireland-UK conflict, cause IRA bombs only UK army bases, empty cars, or official buildings, but they call on the phone before the exposion, and not UK schools, cause if they, I'm sure what would happen to them.

No, the IRA have attacked numerous civillian targets, including hotels, etc but significantly many high-streets and public houses (bars). One of the main examples is the notorious "Omagh" bombing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/152156.stm

Sometimes one can't learn from the book what really happened, the more close you get to the middle-east, it's more true. For example: Who win the war in 73'? It depends on who do you ask.

TH White says in The Once and Future King that it is always possible to see who is the aggressor in a conflict -

"Kay said: 'Suppose King Lot of Orkney was to draw up his army all along the northern border, what could our King here do except send his own army to stand on the same line? Then supposing all Lot's men drew their swords, what could we do except draw ours? The situation could be cmore complicated than that. It seems to me that aggression is a difficult thing to be sure about.'
Merlyn was annoyed.
'Only because you want it to seem so,' he said. 'Obviously Lot would be the aggressor, for making the threat of force. You can always spot the villain, if you keep a fair mind. In the last resort, it is ultimately the man who strikes the first blow.'
Kay persisted with his argument.
'Let it be two men,' he said, 'instead of two armies. They stand opposite each other - they draw swords, pretending it is for some reason - they move about, so as to get on the weak side of one another - they even make feints with their swords, pretending to strike but not doing so. Do you mean to tell me that the aggressor is the one who actually hits first?'
'Yes, if there is nothing else to decide by. But in your case it is obviously the man who first took his army to the frontier.'
'This first blow business brings it down to a matter of nothing. Suppose they both struck at once, or suppose you could not see which one gave the first blow,because there were so many facing each other?'
'But there nearly always is something else to decide by,' exclaimed the old man. 'Use your common sense. (...) Any reasoning man,' continued his tutor, (...) 'who keeps a keeps a steady mind, can tell which side is the aggressor in ninety wars out of a hundred. He can see which side is likely to benefit by going to war in the first place, and that is a strong reason for suspicion. He can see which side began to make to make the threat of force [b]or was the first to arm itself.[/i] And finally he can often put his finger on the one who struck the first blow.'

Chapters 2 - 4 of the second book of the series (The Witch in the Wood) deal extensively with White's analysis of justifications of war. Despite being written during WW2, it is surprisngly revelant in a pre-Orwellian way. The whole book (all 4, technically 5, volumes) deals extensively with the burden of rulership and political morality.

But somewhere in the way they became more greedy. The dumb-ass sentelmenters just want more and more it's never enought for them.

That is certainly very true. And it takes good people, like yourself, to say "enough is enough" and do their utmost to change their *own* governments. Trying to change the other side in a conflict invariably escalates the situation. Trying to force the otherside to "change" is why wars are faught. It is a sad indication of human nature that people are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the promise of victory in war, but never to make sacrifices to live in peace.

As Israel is stronger, larger, richer and more powerful than the Palestinians (many of whom have had their houses taken by settlers, etc or are living in exile in neighbouring arab countries) of course they have to make the bigger (non-military) sacrifice. The Palestinians do not have much to give up or share, and until Israel starts returning their lands and allowing them to unite the strips of land they do have, they will not have anything to spare that they can give back to Israel. The two-state system has been put forward with a broad concensus of opinion on the UN, but the US, time and time again, has thwarted attempts at this by using its power of veto (and its usual practice of 'buying' votes with promises of aid, etc) and by shipping weapons and massive military aid to Israel...

If the yanks had kept their noses out of it, chances are Israel and Palestine would've been obliged to sort their disagreements out maturely, with the help of the world, in my opinion. But a disproportionately powerful Israel (IE it having a power that is only maintained through massive military and political support from the US) is in American best-interests, and thus the militant right-wing people in both governments can make a real peace harder and harder to attain.

What saddens me the most is the most of Europe has learned well the lessons of war. Now, 50 years on, France and Germany have all but buried the hatchet to the point where Shroeder (sp?) stands in for Shirac in EU talks and meetings. What is quite possibly the greatest evil of mankind's history was perpetrated againt your people, and it has made Europe (on the whole) realise that enough is enough. And yet, many of the very people that suffered the most apparently have learned nothing and are more than willing to enter into pointless conflicts of their own.

Israel / Palestine is certainly not alone in this. China and Japan are STILL pointing the finger over atrocities commited during the second world war, and once again the unwillingness of both sides to put it behind them has made their relations of late particularly cool. Taiwan of course being at the centre of this 'difference of opinions.' And like Israel, until both sides are ready to admit, completely and without reservation, the mistakes they have themselves (or rather, their ancestors have) made, reconciliation is going to be disproportionally hard.

Did you know that the Israeli media censors stories of IDF soldiers (like the ones in the BBC website) confessing and repenting for war-crimes? On the grounds that it would "potentially inflame the conflict."

I think the Palestinians know all too well when Israel does something wrong, just as you Israelis know all to well when Palestinians commit crimes. Telling the truth and saying sorry would earn infinitly more respect than trying to "brush it under the carpet". Which begs the question - who is the Israeli government / media trying to keep these things from? The Palestinians? No, from its own citizens.

Admite it's a really fucked up situation.

How do you propose you fix it? They are your people, it is (arguably) your country, your government, and your army. What do you (as a people) need to change to make your government, army, and country work for peace? And what can you, as a private citizen, do to make it happen?

[bobi]

And I appologise for not making myself clearer for foreign-language speakers. I think the communication barrier probably contributed more to the misunderstandings in this thread than anything else. It is a shame that a more confident English speaking Israeli was not available to translate the more difficult paragraphs for you. That would probably solved a lot of miscommunication.
Forget about it


I would concur, to some degree, and with certain qualifications. I'd say it is more capitalism (which is not the sole property of the west) that is to blame for the economic exploitation of poorer nations. If you accept that, then you must bear in mind that the main alternative (communism) is also the product of the west, even though it is currently only operating in the far-east (orient).
In the begining I ment the ages of the Emipires who were robbing hardday villigers, I also ment the economic system, but at that point I wasn't sure about how familiar are you on this topics.

TH White says in The Once and Future King that it is always possible to see who is the aggressor in a conflict -
Very intersting, one of these days I'm gonna find those books.


Did you know that the Israeli media censors stories of IDF soldiers (like the ones in the BBC website) confessing and repenting for war-crimes? On the grounds that it would "potentially inflame the conflict."
I know about it, of course not everything. I also think the army is censoring and not the media. Beliave the press and the media, are waiting for chance to fuck up the army, cause most jurnalists are from the "left camp".


How do you propose you fix it? They are your people, it is (arguably) your country, your government, and your army. What do you (as a people) need to change to make your government, army, and country work for peace? And what can you, as a private citizen, do to make it happen?
I think the agreement should be like:
#Giving back the teritories to the palestinians (like the border from 67'), which includes Gaza strip and like 93% of the west bank. On the other 7% there are to big israeli settlements(I don't think there is some holyland,but it will make the procces less painfull to part of the israelies), so they will get 7% of israeli territory, next to gaza or next to west bank (that's not fiction we already got some plans like this).
#Giving them east Jerusalem
#Building road from gaza strip to west bank, only for them( but it should be very high bridge or like tunnel)
#Palestinians who were living in Israel before 48' can not return to their homes
#Many money for the palestinians to build their contry, but it should be observed by some international found or comitte, to prevent development of black marckets and shits that you can see in development contries.

O.K. here is something I have to tell you about the I.D.F. - when you blame the IDF you better blame it on the goverment, cause this army is build with 18-21 boys and girls and when they somethimes do shitty things is not because they are evil it's because the situation their goverment put them, is matting their fillings. For example I got friend (very good person) but in some check post he told to some palestinian to put all oranges(there were like thousents of oranges) he got in the truck to ground cause he have to check the truck. But this is how it goes: the goverment decide to stay in the Gaza Strip, so the army have to watch out for the settelmenters, so they make patrools and check post, then the inteligence told them that some one is trying to make terror act with exposives, so my man get the order to check every car and truck at the check post and now arrives the truck with the oranges Then my man which is a decent man is ordering some grown man which can be his father or even grandfather (I mean at age) to make this shit. Do you understand what I'm saying. Of course there are aslo not so decent souldiers which just because her girlfriend bothers them can make some really big shit. It's a really fucked up situation, in normal contries boys and girls in the age of 18-21 are doing thier best, and here we are shooting each other. FUCK I have to smoke siggarete right about now, cause I'm pissed of living in war or should I say dieing slowly.

[Thundercracker]

The Israelis are the new Nazis.

what a moron.

[Ace42]

On the other 7% there are to big israeli settlements(I don't think there is some holyland,but it will make the procces less painfull to part of the israelies), so they will get 7% of israeli territory, next to gaza or next to west bank (that's not fiction we already got some plans like this)

I might be mistaken in this, but I gather that Jerusalem, minus the minor bickering, is surprisingly tranquil compared to the rest of the country, in terms of the various factions managing not to kill each other in the streets. If so, this just goes to show that if people are considerate, cohabitation is perfectly possible. I am sure that if there was a generous enough package offered the Palestinians they would be more than happy to accept Jewish settlements in their territory and leave it alone, as long as Palestinian settlements at various key religious locations within Israeli boundaries were permitted and left alone.

[Ace42]

Building road from gaza strip to west bank, only for them( but it should be very high bridge or like tunnel)

Certainly giving Gaza strip access to the rest of Palestinian territories is important, and if you think that an express route is necessary (and I could see why it would be) then that certainly is the way to go. It can't be harder to build than a massive wall. Roads unite, walls divide.

Palestinians who were living in Israel before 48' can not return to their homes

Certainly 52 years is a long time to be dispossessed, and I'd wager that if the Palestinians were given their own land, they would be more than happy to accomodate their own citizens on their own territory, but I was wondering why the date of 1948 is particularly significant to you, given all the other dates that you could choose.

[Ace42]

Many money for the palestinians to build their contry, but it should be observed by some international found or comitte, to prevent development of black marckets and shits that you can see in development contries.

Quite rightly, the US helped repair Japan after they nuked it, and they get on really quite well these days.

Palestinians who were living in Israel before 48' can not return to their homes

Certainly 52 years is a long time to be dispossessed, and I'd wager that if the Palestinians were given their own land, they would be more than happy to accomodate their own citizens on their own territory, but I was wondering why the date of 1948 is particularly significant to you, given all the other dates that you could choose.

[Ace42]

when you blame the IDF you better blame it on the goverment, cause this army is build with 18-21 boys and girls and when they somethimes do shitty things is not because they are evil it's because the situation their goverment put them,

I agree completely. Like the BBC article I cited, and numerous previous news articles and documentaries - there are plenty of young men and women who are forced to commit crimes due to peer-pressure and government-pressure, and it is only when they have grown that they feel guilty, realise they did things that were wrong, and go on the record to speak up for justice. And you are right, it is certainly the government that is at the foremost in censoring these people who know how it works better than most of the international spectators such as myself.

[Ace42]

However, presumably the government rules because the majority support it. As such it is representative of the people. If the majority really wanted peace, surely there would be more support for the left party?

I know that in the UK, the popular vote (how many people voted for a party) doesn't necessarily correlate to the power of the government [For example, there are cases of Labour having more total votes, but the Conservative government ruling due to winning more seats in parliament] and the intricate working of the Israeli government is something I would like to know more about.

I gather you have both a prime-minister *and* a president, like many middle-eastern democracies - how does the distribution of power work in that respect, and how do you select representatives for the government?

[Ace42]

Here people vote on their local constituent, and the party with the most constituencies is the party in power. It is only if the opposition parties have more seats between them than the main party has that there is a "hung parliament" and the main party has to form a "coalition government" by uniting with one of the lesser parties to secure an over-all majority.

Sorry about this being multi-part, but the forums have fucked up royally so that only really small posts will go through hence having to break it down (at great personal difficulty) to get it posted.

[Ace42]

what a moron.

Yeah, it's not like the IDF are shooting people just because of their ethnicity or anything, just like the Nazis did.

Oh wait, they are...

[Thundercracker]

Yeah, it's not like the IDF are shooting people just because of their ethnicity or anything, just like the Nazis did.

Oh wait, they are...

yeah, that's right, exactly the same thing.

...

again, what a MORON!

[Ace42]

yeah, that's right, exactly the same thing.

No, you got me all wrong... I am saying it is completely different. After all, when Jews go around murdering innocent people, it *doesn't count*!

I'm with you 100% there. How could the Jews be responsible for atrocities, everyone KNOWS they are so much better than everyone else. After all, they are God's chosen people, can't hold them responsible for their actions, not at all, no.

Dolt.

[Thundercracker]

why don't you shut the hell up about stuff you don't know shit about?

if you honestly don't see the difference between the Nazi Einzatsgruppen and the Israeli IDF you either been brainwashed by all the murderous terror organizations (Hezbolla, Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, Fatah), or, there's option B' that means your a goddamn MORON!

[bobi]

I am sure that if there was a generous enough package offered the Palestinians they would be more than happy to accept Jewish settlements in their territory and leave it alone, as long as Palestinian settlements at various key religious locations within Israeli boundaries were permitted and left alone.
Even the palestinians will agreed, I think it's better not to leave them. Some of this settelmenters are really hard basters, sometimes they even start beefs with IDF. If they stay there it will be point of friction for sure, then the army will come to protect them and we will find ourselves back to the conflict.
But I'm sure after the peace that the palestinians will never say no to israelis who want to visit some holy grave or something.
I don't know if you noticed it or not, but right about now we got really bad inner problems with the settelment movements, because of the draw away of Gaza this summer. People here are talking about brother-war.Almost every day, they are baricading the main roads, roalways, intersections, locking oficial offices. When the police put them in jail, they are so proud like I dunno.

[Ace42]

why don't you shut the hell up about stuff you don't know shit about?

Yes, that is a possibility. That an independant and well-informed unbiased individual has drawn up a false analogy.

Or, the more likely explanation is that you are a racist, and unable to accept that your countrymen are just as capable as anyone else on the planet of commiting atrocities, and are doing it right this second.

if you honestly don't see the difference between the Nazi Einzatsgruppen and the Israeli IDF

I can see plenty of differences. For starters the Germans were murdering civillian Jews, who you consider "deserving of life" and the IDF are murdering civllian Palestinians who you think are not.

you either been brainwashed by all the murderous terror organizations (Hezbolla, Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, Fatah)

If you see the source I cited, you'd notice that the people who are confessing to perpetrating war crimes are members of the IDF. So unless you are implying that large numbers of the IDF are "murderous terror organizations" (and if you are, I certainly won't disagree with you there) or have been infiltrated by "Hezbolla, Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, Fatah" then that means:

"there's option B' that means your a goddamn MORON!"

Personally, I favour the latter, due to you being hypocritical, and unable to offer any sort of rationale or reasoning to support your assertions.

I have outlined why I have said the above, and precisely why the analogies work. You have stamped your foot like a spoilt child and only offered "hah, that's can't be true because us Jews are NEVER IN THE WRONG!"

Sorry, that argument might work in Israel (and quite well judging by your nation's capacity for self-delusion in its policies towards the Palestinians) but the rest of the world finds it harder to buy into your white-washing and internal prejudices.

[bobi]

Certainly 52 years is a long time to be dispossessed, and I'd wager that if the Palestinians were given their own land, they would be more than happy to accomodate their own citizens on their own territory, but I was wondering why the date of 1948 is particularly significant to you, given all the other dates that you could choose.
The most important years of the conflict I think are 48' 67' and 2000.
Many years before (a couple of tens) UK were ruling here, France were in the area, they give indipendance to Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. ON the Land of todays Israel were living many people who were known like palestinians and a little number of jews. After that the UK take the mandate of the area.
There were someone who called Sir Balfor who promise in "The withe book" (I'm sure you know better than me what is this book) that the jews will get contrey in this area. Then there were a couple years of beef between UK soldiers jews guirillas and palestinians.
In 48' the UN give the right to the jews to build their own contrey. In the next day the arabs start a war (Egypt, Jordan and palestinian villegers).
That war is far from being a war like we know, israel at that time got only one airplane which use were for agricolture. I don't know how one-day contrey defeted the arabs but after that the israelis trow(don't know how to spell trow) out most of the palestinians who were in the border of the contrey. Today they live in refugge camps (once they were called refugge caps, but today they are living 57 years there) in Jordan Lebanon and Gaza.
Todays population of Israel is 7 milion, 1,5 of them are Israel arabs which are palestinians, beduins which live in the desrerts (also in Egypt they got many of them) and one more group of something between (arabs but not exactly, and aren't muslim). However most of the todays refugges are the sons and the sons of the sons of the palestinian we trow out the border. Years they were beliaving the promises of Arafat that they will came back to their homes. So that is the problem with them, todays prime minister of Palestine know very well that this is impossible and he told it several times but never directly.
The next year is 67' and you know very well the shit we came to and what happend after.
In 2000 after very serous peace procces, our PM at that time Ehud Barak, pull all egg he's got on peace, He draw out the army from south Lebanon after 20 years of military actions with Hisbula, he start secret talks with Syria and the "creme de la creme", He, Arafat and Clinton were working on the agreement (which the road map is based on). In this days the inner beefs were like when Rabin was assasinated. The right wing against the left wing, the people were separated like dunno. And the most important thing is that the agreement was better for the palestinians than the "road map" of Bush, cause it was giving the palestinians 100% of gaza and 97% of west bank. And then came the thunder no one was expecting (exccept the inteligence forces), in Camp David Arafat didn't take the agreement (there were talks that He doesn't know how to rule indipendant contrey, cause all hes life he was fighting and this is the only thing he can does). However after this they start the 4-5 years beef and you know what happend.
But what bothers me the most is that, what happend in the past 5 years help to the fanatics from both sides to slow dawn the peace procces, because the right wing here will say "you give them all and they start a war", and the palestinian fanatics will say "they ruind you homes and kill our brothers".
But what is promising for the near future is that the majority of the israelies prefer todays palestinian PM. (several times I said palestinian PM instead of hes name, but that is only cause here in Israel we call him like the palestinian call him Abu Mazen and no Muhamed Abas)

[Thundercracker]

the thing is, Ace42, that you manipulate every little thing i say as if i say that Jews are superior to all other peoples.
based on nothing.
show me where the hell i'm saying that Jews deserve more than Muslims or Christians or whatever.
you just posted a label on me - "Jewish-Nazi Racist"

so that's why i'm saying you're talking about things you don't know shit about.
and by comparing me, my family, my grandmother that suffered horribly under the Nazi regime in Poland and my grandfather who fought valiantly against the Nazis under the Polish army and basicly, the entire nation of Israel who is based on a society of Holocaust survivors to the Nazis, you prove your Ignorence on the subject.

i'm not supporting the killing of palestinian civilans by any way and i hurt the suffering they go through but you have to understand that the current situation here in the west bank and the gaza strip is simply impossible!
we made the horrible mistake of taking these troublesome territories off the hands of Egypt and Jordan and now we're stuck with them and we try to get the hell outta there and we have to deal with our extreemists settlers who live there now and we are on the edge of a civil war.
so you have to realize that we are in deep shit and with terrorists ruling the palestinian streets, our army, the IDF has got to operate from time to time to put down and arrest those terrorists whose only goal is to blow up coffee houses and bus stations and malls and kill as many Israelis.
mistakes do happen and when we accidently kill an innocent civilian when trying to hit wanted terrorists, it is indeed distressing.

[Ali]

This is the problem, the settlers in the occupied territories.

Can they not be persuaded to share the land with the Palestinians?

Or will the Palestinians not want to share with Israelis?

Both sides can lay claim to the land, if they look back far enough... but in the beginning, the land belonged to nobody and everybody.

Maybe if the Settlers knew they had the choice - to go back to Israel or to stay and share the area with the Palestnians, they might choose the latter. I don't see why the Palestinians should disagree. If the Settlers leave, they take the infrastructure with them, if they stay, it stays. Israelis are good at making money and Palestinians are hard workers, why shouldn't they be able to share the land? They both know they cannot have it all to themselves, has anybody suggested they share?

[El Nino]

This is the problem, the settlers in the occupied territories.

Can they not be persuaded to share the land with the Palestinians?

Or will the Palestinians not want to share with Israelis?

Both sides can lay claim to the land, if they look back far enough... but in the beginning, the land belonged to nobody and everybody.

Maybe if the Settlers knew they had the choice - to go back to Israel or to stay and share the area with the Palestnians, they might choose the latter. I don't see why the Palestinians should disagree. If the Settlers leave, they take the infrastructure with them, if they stay, it stays. Israelis are good at making money and Palestinians are hard workers, why shouldn't they be able to share the land? They both know they cannot have it all to themselves, has anybody suggested they share?

Your idea looks good on the surface but the fatal flaw is that the Jews have already taken "Israel Proper", and you are asking the Palestinians to share what little carved out ruin of a country they have left. Why should they? I know that if I were a Palestinian living in the territories the name of the game would be resist, resist, resist. Think about it, if someone came to your country, your house, and told you that your land actually belonged to them, would you simply shrug your shoulders and "I guess that's that then"? I seriously doubt it (especially you Americans out there). There is not a single international treaty in existence that denies the right of people to resist foreign occupiers by any means they see fit. Call it terror, call it what you will.

[Ace42]

the thing is, Ace42, that you manipulate every little thing i say as if i say that Jews are superior to all other peoples.
based on nothing.

If by "manipulate" you mean iterate it in a way devoid of baseless pro-Israeli spin, then you are hardly making it difficult for me.

show me where the hell i'm saying that Jews deserve more than Muslims or Christians or whatever.

The German army shot and tortured random Jewish civllians because they were "trouble-makers" according to the german government and media - you think this is bad. The IDF shoot and torture random Palestinian civillians because they are "trouble makers" according to your government and media - you think this is ok.

This is a double-standard. And unless you are going to tell me that the reason one is ok whilst the other is a grave injustice is because 'Stuff that happened after the 1930s doesn't count' then the only difference between the two is race. When they Germans are doing it, they are bad bad evil people. When Israel does it "is the only way to deal with a fucked up situation."

you just posted a label on me - "Jewish-Nazi Racist"

Again, if the cap fits... However, what I actually did was draw a parrellel between the war-crimes commited by the German Nazis, and modern day Israel. Now, unless you are saying the IDF is not made up of Israelis, is not controlled by the Israeli government, does not operate with the sanction of the Israeli people, and that all of these people are not Jewish, then that means the Israeli people, on the whole, are complicit. Just as the German people who knew all to well that their Jewish neighbours were being rounded up, and shipped off god-knows-where were complicit in the atrocities commited by their army, according to their government, in their name.

Your arguments are the same as the Nazis used, your soldiers are commiting the same war-crimes that the Nazis did, and they are targeting people solely on the basis of race. Again, unless the IDF is full of gentiles, that makes them Nazi(esque) racist Jews.

so that's why i'm saying you're talking about things you don't know shit about.

Because you can't see how your government is racially prejudiced, that means that *I* don't know what *I* am talking about?

Yah, that sure makes *me* the ignorant one.

and by comparing me, my family, my grandmother that suffered horribly under the Nazi regime in Poland and my grandfather who fought valiantly against the Nazis under the Polish army and basicly, the entire nation of Israel who is based on a society of Holocaust survivors to the Nazis, you prove your Ignorence on the subject.

You are mistaken. If you actually try to engage your brain, instead of whining like a spoilt child, you'd actually see why your above sentence is nonsense.

By your argument, a child who "suffered horribly under an abusive parent, and who was valiantly defiant against that parent, and basically all children who are the victims of child-abuse" cannot be compared to the violent parent, even if they do exactly the same things themselves when they grow up.

Actually, a disproportionately large number of children who are bullied go on to be bullies themselves. A disproportionately large number of children who are abused go on to abuse their own children.

So you saying "Well, they suffered, so that magically means they wouldn't do the same thing themselves" is a load of nonsense that you pulled out of your ass. Especially when there are plenty of documented cases of the IDF going out and killing random groups of Palestinians for no reason at all.

You do realise that if everyone was as stupid as you, no-one who was the victim of crime could be accused of anything?

"Well, your honour, we found the defendant with the gun in their hand, powder burns indicating they had fired the gun recently, and the ballistics matched the slug we pulled out of the victim's forehead. Several eye-witnesses testified that they saw the accused fire the shots that killed the victim, and infact we have footage and a signed confession. However the accused has been shot before in the distant past, so anyone who says he is guilty of the murder proves their ignorance on the subject!"

Yeah, no wonder you guys can get away with murdering so many people if your courts operate like that.

i'm not supporting the killing of palestinian civilans

Then stop pretending that when the Germans killed civillians they were evil war-criminals, and when they IDF do exactly the same thing "they have to, from time to time."

but you have to understand that the current situation here in the west bank and the gaza strip is simply impossible!

And whose fault is that? Your country manages to get itself into a "simply impossible situation" and that makes state-sponsored torture ok? The Germans were in a "simply impossible" situation in the 30s, with political unrest and millions dying of starvation. Does that make what they did ok?

we made the horrible mistake of taking these troublesome territories off the hands of Egypt and Jordan and now we're stuck with them

I do hope for your sake that is irony, really. Because if it isn't, then - "you prove your Ignorence on the subject." [SIC]

If you want a more accurate view of the initiation of the Arab-Israeli conflict, then I suggest you search this forum's archive. IIRC, your countryman Vladimir posted an excellent summary he wrote on the matter, and hopefully, by reading it you'll be able to see precisely why your above paragraph is really quite offensive.

and with terrorists ruling the palestinian streets, our army, the IDF has got to operate from time to time to put down and arrest those terrorists

The IDF are the main terrorists "ruling the Palestinian streets" - you check the armaments of the people fighting in any of the footage and you'll see that it is the IDF who have guns, and the Palestinian children who have sticks and stones.

By any meaningful definition, Palestinians living in "Palestinian streets" are NOT terrorists.

And since when has "arresting those terrorists" meant "grabbing 6 random Palestinians off the street, attatching their testicles to car-batteries, and electrocuting them until they urinate themselves" - a practice that is all too common according to retired IDF soldiers.

What part of "arresting those terrorists" involves Israeli soldiers going into Palestinian territory, beating up an old man for no reason whatsoever, and leaving him cut and bruised, covered in the smashed remains of the crate of eggs that was his sole livelihood?

Now, maybe it is because I have "proven my ignorance" on the subject, but as a right-thinking individual, I would've thought "arresting those terrorists" would necessitate actually identifying individual criminals, taking them into custody without beating, questioning them without torture, and then giving them a fair trial where they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is the procedure that Israeli criminals would be arrested, detained and prosecuted under?

So why is it, when the IDF "arrest those terrorists" they burst in on 6 Palestinian men whose names they don't even know, and summarily execute them without any evidence, without any warrant, without any recourse to law or due process, without any trial, without any attempt at restraint or capture?

Why is it, when the IDF "arrest those terrorists" they pull old men and young boys off the street who they do not even recognise, brutally torture them, and then *leave them injured in the street* rather than taking them to jail?

Why is it that the IDFs main method for determining who is or isn't a terrorist has everything to do with their race, and not even anything to do with if they are accused of any crimes or not?!?

How "ignorant" of me to think that habius corpus should apply to non-Jews! Clearly I do not understand the situation at all.

mistakes do happen and when we accidently kill an innocent civilian when trying to hit wanted terrorists, it is indeed distressing.

Yeah right, IDF soldiers were *accidentaly* told by their superior officers "It doesn't matter [that there is no proof of the targets' guilt] - they took six of ours, and we are going to take six of theirs"

I can see how that would happen...

Clearly it was all an innocent (pardon the pun) mistake - the officer in question meant "we are going to take six of theirs *in for questioning*" - but just that second, some books fell off a nearby desk, interupting him mid-sentence (pardon the pun again)"

And the fact that the 'soldier added that several of his comrades kept shooting at one of the bodies, "punching holes in it".' was merely even more confusion. Those soldiers accidentaly got confused and thought "take six of theirs" meant "shot the dead bodies six times to make really sure they are dead!"

And when a different soldier was told to "simply shoot at police." again, order was given *accidentaly*.

By "simply shoot at police" his commander ACTUALLY meant "shoot police using simple arms fire and tactics, after having spent months carefully amassing a dossier of intelligence on suspected terrorists, building up a body of evidence, trying to arrest them without violence, and then being left no other option but to run down a series of alleyways, much like in a hollywood blockbuster, resulting in the brave young IDF soldier having no choice but to shoot the bad old nasty Palestinian policemen dead in order to save a bus load of impoverished orphans!"

So it was all a big misunderstanding, and once again the IDF acted impecably...

<coughbullshitcough>

[Ali]

I know that if I were a Palestinian living in the territories the name of the game would be resist, resist, resist.And if you were an Israeli settler?

The Palestinians must realise that resistance is futile and the Israelis that they have to share Israel with others who claim it as their own.

Surely someone must realise that things cannot continue like this.

[El Nino]

And if you were an Israeli settler?

The Palestinians must realise that resistance is futile and the Israelis that they have to share Israel with others who claim it as their own.

Surely someone must realise that things cannot continue like this.

The Palestinians have been resisting since 1949, and their population has balooned to from the few hundred thousand that fled to the territories to more than three million. The only futile thing going on, is Israel's killing of the Palestinians to try to deal with this "demographic crisis".

BTW I would never be an Israeli settler, most are Americans who have no reason to leave the U.S., other than to live out some bizzare destiny fairy tale (and perhaps kill some arabs along the way).

[bobi]

The Palestinians have been resisting since 1949, and their population has balooned to from the few hundred thousand that fled to the territories to more than three million. The only futile thing going on, is Israel's killing of the Palestinians to try to deal with this "demographic crisis".

Oh man you are killing me with that bulshit.
let' do some math:
population of the palestinian: 3 000 000 (as you said)
paletinian killed in the last intifada: a little more then 4000, but i"ll go with you so let's count 4500.
this means 4500 out of 3 000 000 is 0.15%
O.K. every year their population grows with a couple of % and for 5 years Israel killed 0.15% of them.
Is that what you call "to deal with this "demographic crisis" ".
And another more thing The Palestinians didn't have been resisting since 1949, since 1948 till 1995 they were thinkig that they can kick our asses out of here with a help of Syria Jordan Egypt and Iraq.
Since 1995 till 2004 they were talking peace but doing war.
And now there is a new hope with their new PM.
To be onest with you I'm not blaiming it all on the palestinians, the israelies are not less guilty, but it bothers me when people think like "the israelies are bigger and stronger so they are wrong".

[Ali]

What to do about the Settlers, Bobi?

Do you think it's reasonable to suggest the Occupied Territories be shared?

Why won't this work?

[bobi]

What to do about the Settlers, Bobi?

Do you think it's reasonable to suggest the Occupied Territories be shared?

Why won't this work?
To draw them out, many of them are fanatic no less then the "Hamas".
I can make exeption about 2 big cities, but the palestinians should get the equal % of land in other places.
The settlers between the palestinian population will make only friction in the not "oiled" peace procces, at least in the first years.

[bobi]

Somethimes I have the expretion that people are takeing side in the conflict at certain moment that they were exposed to some evidence like( http://www.geocities.com/stop_abuse.geo/Peace_Tuvia.htm ), I'm not saying all the evidence weren't thru, so to make it right check also( http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-caterpillar.html ), but one shuold check all the facts
and to avoid the propaganda from the to sides.
Because if you take side in the conflict on the base of the past 5 years, you actually miss 97.15% of the conflict historical line of time since 1948.
You can also check http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/
It's not some historic site, but it gives the the 2 sides oportunity to explain thier statments. You may find it very intersting.

[Ali]

To draw them out, many of them are fanatic no less then the "Hamas".and where will they go?

[bobi]

and where will they go?
I don't know if in the west speak that we are drawing out the settlers from Gaza stripe this summer,( all of them ). They are getting enough money to buy a new house, inside Israel, and start a new life. Ofcourse no money can't buy from them "the believe in their cause", but we are living in democratic country and the goverment already decided. Also some of the settlers are living in the territories cause it's cheaper. Can you believe it?

[Thundercracker]

If by "manipulate" you mean iterate it in a way devoid of baseless pro-Israeli spin, then you are hardly making it difficult for me.



The German army shot and tortured random Jewish civllians because they were "trouble-makers" according to the german government and media - you think this is bad. The IDF shoot and torture random Palestinian civillians because they are "trouble makers" according to your government and media - you think this is ok.

This is a double-standard. And unless you are going to tell me that the reason one is ok whilst the other is a grave injustice is because 'Stuff that happened after the 1930s doesn't count' then the only difference between the two is race. When they Germans are doing it, they are bad bad evil people. When Israel does it "is the only way to deal with a fucked up situation."



Again, if the cap fits... However, what I actually did was draw a parrellel between the war-crimes commited by the German Nazis, and modern day Israel. Now, unless you are saying the IDF is not made up of Israelis, is not controlled by the Israeli government, does not operate with the sanction of the Israeli people, and that all of these people are not Jewish, then that means the Israeli people, on the whole, are complicit. Just as the German people who knew all to well that their Jewish neighbours were being rounded up, and shipped off god-knows-where were complicit in the atrocities commited by their army, according to their government, in their name.

Your arguments are the same as the Nazis used, your soldiers are commiting the same war-crimes that the Nazis did, and they are targeting people solely on the basis of race. Again, unless the IDF is full of gentiles, that makes them Nazi(esque) racist Jews.



Because you can't see how your government is racially prejudiced, that means that *I* don't know what *I* am talking about?

Yah, that sure makes *me* the ignorant one.



You are mistaken. If you actually try to engage your brain, instead of whining like a spoilt child, you'd actually see why your above sentence is nonsense.

By your argument, a child who "suffered horribly under an abusive parent, and who was valiantly defiant against that parent, and basically all children who are the victims of child-abuse" cannot be compared to the violent parent, even if they do exactly the same things themselves when they grow up.

Actually, a disproportionately large number of children who are bullied go on to be bullies themselves. A disproportionately large number of children who are abused go on to abuse their own children.

So you saying "Well, they suffered, so that magically means they wouldn't do the same thing themselves" is a load of nonsense that you pulled out of your ass. Especially when there are plenty of documented cases of the IDF going out and killing random groups of Palestinians for no reason at all.

You do realise that if everyone was as stupid as you, no-one who was the victim of crime could be accused of anything?

"Well, your honour, we found the defendant with the gun in their hand, powder burns indicating they had fired the gun recently, and the ballistics matched the slug we pulled out of the victim's forehead. Several eye-witnesses testified that they saw the accused fire the shots that killed the victim, and infact we have footage and a signed confession. However the accused has been shot before in the distant past, so anyone who says he is guilty of the murder proves their ignorance on the subject!"

Yeah, no wonder you guys can get away with murdering so many people if your courts operate like that.



Then stop pretending that when the Germans killed civillians they were evil war-criminals, and when they IDF do exactly the same thing "they have to, from time to time."



And whose fault is that? Your country manages to get itself into a "simply impossible situation" and that makes state-sponsored torture ok? The Germans were in a "simply impossible" situation in the 30s, with political unrest and millions dying of starvation. Does that make what they did ok?



I do hope for your sake that is irony, really. Because if it isn't, then - "you prove your Ignorence on the subject." [SIC]

If you want a more accurate view of the initiation of the Arab-Israeli conflict, then I suggest you search this forum's archive. IIRC, your countryman Vladimir posted an excellent summary he wrote on the matter, and hopefully, by reading it you'll be able to see precisely why your above paragraph is really quite offensive.



The IDF are the main terrorists "ruling the Palestinian streets" - you check the armaments of the people fighting in any of the footage and you'll see that it is the IDF who have guns, and the Palestinian children who have sticks and stones.

By any meaningful definition, Palestinians living in "Palestinian streets" are NOT terrorists.

And since when has "arresting those terrorists" meant "grabbing 6 random Palestinians off the street, attatching their testicles to car-batteries, and electrocuting them until they urinate themselves" - a practice that is all too common according to retired IDF soldiers.

What part of "arresting those terrorists" involves Israeli soldiers going into Palestinian territory, beating up an old man for no reason whatsoever, and leaving him cut and bruised, covered in the smashed remains of the crate of eggs that was his sole livelihood?

Now, maybe it is because I have "proven my ignorance" on the subject, but as a right-thinking individual, I would've thought "arresting those terrorists" would necessitate actually identifying individual criminals, taking them into custody without beating, questioning them without torture, and then giving them a fair trial where they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is the procedure that Israeli criminals would be arrested, detained and prosecuted under?

So why is it, when the IDF "arrest those terrorists" they burst in on 6 Palestinian men whose names they don't even know, and summarily execute them without any evidence, without any warrant, without any recourse to law or due process, without any trial, without any attempt at restraint or capture?

Why is it, when the IDF "arrest those terrorists" they pull old men and young boys off the street who they do not even recognise, brutally torture them, and then *leave them injured in the street* rather than taking them to jail?

Why is it that the IDFs main method for determining who is or isn't a terrorist has everything to do with their race, and not even anything to do with if they are accused of any crimes or not?!?

How "ignorant" of me to think that habius corpus should apply to non-Jews! Clearly I do not understand the situation at all.



Yeah right, IDF soldiers were *accidentaly* told by their superior officers "It doesn't matter [that there is no proof of the targets' guilt] - they took six of ours, and we are going to take six of theirs"

I can see how that would happen...

Clearly it was all an innocent (pardon the pun) mistake - the officer in question meant "we are going to take six of theirs *in for questioning*" - but just that second, some books fell off a nearby desk, interupting him mid-sentence (pardon the pun again)"

And the fact that the 'soldier added that several of his comrades kept shooting at one of the bodies, "punching holes in it".' was merely even more confusion. Those soldiers accidentaly got confused and thought "take six of theirs" meant "shot the dead bodies six times to make really sure they are dead!"

And when a different soldier was told to "simply shoot at police." again, order was given *accidentaly*.

By "simply shoot at police" his commander ACTUALLY meant "shoot police using simple arms fire and tactics, after having spent months carefully amassing a dossier of intelligence on suspected terrorists, building up a body of evidence, trying to arrest them without violence, and then being left no other option but to run down a series of alleyways, much like in a hollywood blockbuster, resulting in the brave young IDF soldier having no choice but to shoot the bad old nasty Palestinian policemen dead in order to save a bus load of impoverished orphans!"

So it was all a big misunderstanding, and once again the IDF acted impecably...

<coughbullshitcough>

wow, Ace42, what a load of bullshit you just spilled out here.
some of the things you wrote i don't even see the slightest relevance of them to reality.
you must be living in some other dimension or something.

Yeah of course, how did I miss it?
All Israelis (including myself and Bobi) are cold blooded sadistic murderers who are convinced in their race supremecy and their ultimate goal is to torture to death every helpless innocent peace loving Palestinian Man, Woman and Child.
Israelis/Jews are scum of the Earth.
Hitler is Mother Teresa next to us. :rolleyes:

I would love to continue this pointless argument but unfortunatly I don't have the time or strength for this anymore.

[Ali]

I would love to continue this pointless argument but unfortunatly I don't have the time or strength for this anymore.Glad you realised at last. Put the arrogant fuck on ignore and you'll enjoy yourself more.

[Ace42]

some of the things you wrote i don't even see the slightest relevance of them to reality.

If you read the article I cited, then you would see that the cases I gave were factual accounts of events, as told by former IDF soldiers.

But let me guess, you know better right? Those IDF soldiers were wrong, and when they were ordered to go out and kill random people based on no evidence, actually it was all a game, and they were firing blanks, and after the IDF soldiers went home, all those tricky Palestinians stood up, washed the tomato sauce off themselves and said "Wow, we've just managed to fake our own deaths to confuse the whole world!"

You deny Israeli war-crimes, neo-nazis deny the holocaust. What's the difference? Well, most neo-nazis weren't even born when the holocaust was going on, so they'd have to go back in time to see they are full of shit. You just have to turn on your TV. The other difference? Ah, yes, that's right. Neo-nazis aren't Jews and therefore bad and you are Jewish, and therefore good. What you people say or do doesn't matter, as solely by virtue of racial heritage, you guys *must* be in the right!

Once again, a double-standard based solely on racism.

you must be living in some other dimension or something.

To you? Quite possibly. However, where I am reality is generally considered to be what correponds to empirical evidence. So, on those grounds, whatever dimension you are in is not reality.

Yeah of course, how did I miss it?
All Israelis (including myself and Bobi) are cold blooded sadistic murderers

Actually, I never said that. If you had read what I said, instead of sounding off like a weak stereotype, you'd've seen that I was careful to pick out the IDF and the Israeli government where appropriate.

The only way you could interpret my comparsion of Israel with Nazi Germany as "All Israelis are cold-blooded sadistic murderers" is if you thought all of the Germans living during the 30 were "cold-blooded sadistic murderers" - that makes you a racist. Most Germans (and indeed Nazi party members) never lifted a gun, never hit a Jew, never threw a brick, never threw an insult. Just like most Israelis don't go out and "cold-bloodedly murder" Palestinians.

Does that excuse the Germans who supported Hitler? Who worked in the factories? Who looked the otherway when the einsatzgruppen went walking through the Jewish areas looking for people to victimise? Or said "well, they are Jewish and thus probably subversives" when their coffee shops got ransacked?

I'd say no. And by the same token, I'd have to say that your (you and people like you. I am not necessarily talking about Bobi, he hasn't presented arguments that would put him into this category, unlike yourself) apathy and assent does not excuse you from the war-crimes that are being perpetrated by your government and army.

And, whether it is through ignorance, or an unwillingness to admit the truth even to yourself, or even just because you are a victim of a propoganda system that would make Goebbels envious, it does not alter the fact that atrocities are consciously and intentionally being commited by *your people*.

This brings me to an interesting point I will pose at the bottom of this post as a postscript.

A significant proportion of those in the IDF are, and by their own admission. Or are you trying to tell me that the IDF personnel who are confessing to *precisely the things I quoted* are merely being "stereo-typical self-hating Jews" ?

Or that the IDF is full of pathological liars? Quite possibly, but that hardly strengthens your position.

I know what it is - former IDF soldiers are LYING JUST TO RUIN YOUR ARGUMENT, THE SCOUNDRELS!

who are convinced in their race supremecy

You clearly are, otherwise you'd not be denying your country's atrocities. A German denies the holocaust, and you'd be all over him like a fly on shit. An Israeli denies the torture of Palestinians? Hell, he's a Jew, they can't lie - it's in the genes. Everyone knows that Germans are genetically inferior, which is why they adopted a totalitarian government in the 30s, but the Jews could never do EXACTLY THE SAME THING, their special Jewish DNA doesn't allow it! The mere idea of Israelis behaving exactly in the same way their neighbours did 60 years previous is preposterous.

Hitler is Mother Teresa next to us. :rolleyes:

Straw-man argument. Even at my most flamboyant, I merely said 'that is as bad as what the Nazis were doing' - only someone as devoid of intellectual ability could read "The Jews are the new Nazis" as "The Jews are worse than the Nazis."

But hell, you're an Israeli, right? It doesn't matter if your argument makes no sense and doesn't agree with the facts, because *what actually happened* is merely anti-semitic propoganda, right?

I would love to continue this pointless argument but unfortunatly I don't have the time or strength for this anymore.

Good, because when you deny cold hard facts, you sound like a neo-nazi standing in the middle of Auschwitz and saying "this wasn't a death-camp, this was a laundromat! This is just anti-nazi propoganda thought up to make us look bad!"

PS: If a German resistance (possibly containing Jews) had the capability to attack venues that were organising the infamous "Hitler Youth" movement, would that be ok? What if you knew that a lot of them would be joining the army (maybe even the SS?) when they come of age (quite possibly before the war ends, even though you'd have no way of knowing how long the war would be going on) and ushering Jews off to the concentration camps? Would that be justifiable?

What about blowing up an office building you knew was being used to administer the holocaust? Would that be ok? What about the factories where the made the gas? What about the depots where they sorted confiscated materials to make money to fund their war-efforts and genocide?

[bobi]

Ace I respect your and what you think and believe, but to be onest with you, the compare to the Nazi you are doing bothers me a little bit. I will explane.

The Nazi had very oiled killing machine and one of their objectives where to clean the world from the lowest races.
On other hand the shit we are doing to the palestinians is not exactly a total anahilation. Even when we do shit is not exactly cause the PM or the 4 star general give order to the dumbass average soldier (who may be to dumb to understand the meaning on the long-run of his action) to do.
It's a kind of by-product of the fucked up situation.
It's not excuse, but it's a perfect example when the situation is sometimes stronger then you and lead you to do things you not exactly ment to do.
I hope you'll understand what I mean.

[Ace42]

The Nazi had very oiled killing machine and one of their objectives where to clean the world from the lowest races.

I agree that is a difference, and a big difference. However it is merely a question of scale. How many Palestinians need to be killed in atrocities before you'd say, in your opinion, that your country's actions were as bad? Are we going to be dogmatic and say "Israel has 5.5 million left before it's as bad as the Nazis" ?

I mean, we *could* do the math, and we could work out a "nazi index" and say "Israel is exactly 1/10th as bad as the Nazis"

there are plenty of statistics to take into account. However, I was trying to compare the ideologies and moral philosophies involved, rather than a "blow for blow" comparison of kills.

It was more an analogy (and certainly allegorical) rather than a direct comparsion. I was merely illustrating features that were similar (in both cases, a lot of the people were unwilling to admit their nation had done wrong. In both cases people who have lived in a country for years were being turfed out on the grounds of "we were here first". Etc etc)

It's a kind of by-product of the fucked up situation.

I agree. However, if I were to say "but you have to remember, Nazi Germany in the late 20s and early 30s was a fucked up situation with millions of Germans dying of starvation" - you would probably not accept that as a mitigation of what followed.

It's not excuse, but it's a perfect example when the situation is sometimes stronger then you and lead you to do things you not exactly ment to do.
I hope you'll understand what I mean.

I agree, and I am all for forgiving and forgetting. However, in order to "bury the hatchet" so to speak, both sides must admit they have done wrong. Look at the end of the first world war. All blame was put on the Germans, and by military pressure they were forced to endure unfair treaties that crippled their economy and fostered a climate of intolerance. It took another war, millions and millions of deaths, and a lot of appologies and guilt to put that mistake wrong.

Just by historical precedent, if Israel were able to "win" the conflict by military means, and get the Palestinians to admit culpability, and to force (or at least oblige) them to endure unfair conditions, that peace would not be lasting.

Readdressing the material injustices (exchanging territories, helping both sides rebuild) is important, very important, it is the practicalities we can all concentrate on.

However, without putting an end to the "you started it, no you, no you, but you did this, but you did this" the matter cannot be properly put to rest.

The Palestinians do not deny that some of their people are commiting the sort of atrocities that your countrymen, unfortunately, have to deal with daily. Yes, they deny that it is morally wrong (and we ALL know that it is morally wrong) but that is something that can be dealt with it is something that can be talked around. It is a matter for moral philosophers to stroke their beards about while sipping tea (or their drink of choice) and ask "Is killing children ever justified?"

Many Israelis, such as Thundercracker, are denying that Israel commits any sort of war-crimes. When people are lying (to each other, to themselves) like that, progress is much much harder. That is an obstacle that is as big as any wall, in my opinion.

That is why my arguments may sound a little brutal - when you have to get past a wall, I find that if you run at it as hard as possible you end up on the other side, one way or the other.

[Thundercracker]

just for the record, i wanna clerify that i'm not denying the war crimes Israel had comitted, which were b.t.w. in a much smaller scale than whatever the USA and it's allies had done in Iraq and Afganistan, and not even comparisonable to Nazi Germany in WW2.
what I ment was that the war crimes that Israel commited were not as many as you, Ace42 made them, and most of them if not all, had derived from identifying mistakes, precision mistakes, drastic times (that call for drastic mesures) or people acting on their own (either soldiors or settlers or whatever) and not representing Israel.
and most importantly, ARE NOT INTENSIONAL!

but still, those war crimes ar awfull and SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED!



so please, Ace42, please stop forcing this "Israeli extreemist liar" label on me.

[bobi]

I agree, and I am all for forgiving and forgetting. However, in order to "bury the hatchet" so to speak, both sides must admit they have done wrong. Look at the end of the first world war. All blame was put on the Germans, and by military pressure they were forced to endure unfair treaties that crippled their economy and fostered a climate of intolerance. It took another war, millions and millions of deaths, and a lot of appologies and guilt to put that mistake wrong.

Just by historical precedent, if Israel were able to "win" the conflict by military means, and get the Palestinians to admit culpability, and to force (or at least oblige) them to endure unfair conditions, that peace would not be lasting.
I completely agree. I think it should be like, every side should think what WE have done wrong and how can WE improve the situation and not like they did this and we did that and they did this and we did that and they did this and we did that and they did this and we did that .............................forever and ever.

[Ace42]

just for the record, i wanna clerify that i'm not denying the war crimes Israel had comitted, which were b.t.w. in a much smaller scale than whatever the USA and it's allies had done in Iraq and Afganistan,

Oh, that's ok then. Why not get the IDF to go into occupied territory right now, and kill a few thousand children so they can "catch up" with the yanks.

and not even comparisonable to Nazi Germany in WW2.

Why not? "The Nazis were better at it than we are" ? Well I know that makes me sleep better at nights, knowing that the inefficiency of the IDF has saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

what I ment was that the war crimes that Israel commited were not as many as you, Ace42 made them

How would you know? I didn't put a figure on the estimated number of incidents, infact it would be impossible to do so because the number of IDF soldiers who are going to come out and admit they have done wrong is going to be a very very small percentage. So given that I have not said how many I estimate have occured, I do not see how you can say "there are not as many."

Now, if you want to say they are not as severe as I am making out, then you are talking bullshit. The examples I gave were all related from confessions by IDF soldiers. Sorry, but those are the breaks. If you want to attack the credibility of the anecdotes, then you are going to have to shake your finger at former IDF soldiers, not me.

and most of them if not all, had derived from identifying mistakes, precision mistakes,

Yeah, accidentaly attaching batteries to Palestinian earlobes... Happens all the time. Hell, I nearly electrocuted my own earlobes the other day...

Buh.

drastic times (that call for drastic mesures)

Like millions of Germans dying of starvation in the 30s because of the war-reparations? Those were quite drastic times. Were the "drastic measures" Hitler undertook 'called for' ?

or people acting on their own (either soldiors or settlers or whatever) and not representing Israel.

What, Israeli soldiers, being protected by the Israeli military, using guns bought (from the yanks) by Israeli military aid, in units divided up by the Israeli government, patrolling routes chosen by their Israeli commanding officers, carrying out orders given by their Israeli commanding officers, all of whom are Israeli voters, whose actions are presided over by Israeli commanding officers, who answer to Israeli politicians, who are elected into power by *all* Israeli voters "do not represent Israel."

What are they doing in Palestinian territory shooting Palestinians, then? Going on vacation?

and most importantly, ARE NOT INTENSIONAL!

Yeah, in the examples cited, it was all an *accident*! Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

so please, Ace42, please stop forcing this "Israeli extreemist liar" label on me.

If the cap fits... Feel free to replace "extremist liar" with "painfully naive".

[El Nino]

just for the record, i wanna clerify that i'm not denying the war crimes Israel had comitted, which were b.t.w. in a much smaller scale than whatever the USA and it's allies had done in Iraq...

Iraq? That's a proxy war for the future of your country.

[bobi]

Iraq? That's a proxy war for the future of your country.
It's war for petroleum a.k.a. oil. The other is just a by-product.

[El Nino]

It's war for petroleum a.k.a. oil. The other is just a by-product.

I'm not so sure I buy that entirely......

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?a=15&num=163

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2727

[bobi]

I'm not so sure I buy that entirely......

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?a=15&num=163

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2727
The 2th and 3th link are talking about how happy are in Israel about the war witch will lead to the eventual fall of Sadam the "domino effect".
The first is like "we go to war to protect Israel".
C'mon
the war in 91' also was to protect Israel.
The american wars are protecting americans interests, that's it.

[El Nino]

The 2th and 3th link are talking about how happy are in Israel about the war witch will lead to the eventual fall of Sadam the "domino effect".
The first is like "we go to war to protect Israel".
C'mon
the war in 91' also was to protect Israel.
The american wars are protecting americans interests, that's it.

I think you should re-read the 3rd link.

Here are some more:

http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1P1:95988522&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=

http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm

Okay, here's one that speaks for both of our points:

http://www.quivis.com/iraq27.html

I agree oil is a big factor, as well as the strategic position it puts the U.S. in with regards to the rest of the middle east (new bases). But I don't think it is a coincidence that the people behind this war (Perle, Wolfowitz etc.) are the same people who penned this report:

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

[Ali]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4607000/4607021.stm

[Duce]

I have not read the preceding posts or links at all. However, I must say that both sides in the Israeli-Arab conflict have wronged and will continue to wrong each other. There is no easy fix for this and much of the response from each side for actions taken by their opponent just furthers the cycle. I truly hope we can find peace but I urge people to try not to take sides, of course we all do and will all have a bias to one side or another but try to keep an open mind to what the others are going through. Work for peace not just to show the other side as the bad guy. Neither group needs to be pushed into the sea as many have suggested in my lifetime.

[bobi]

I have not read the preceding posts or links at all. However, I must say that both sides in the Israeli-Arab conflict have wronged and will continue to wrong each other. There is no easy fix for this and much of the response from each side for actions taken by their opponent just furthers the cycle. I truly hope we can find peace but I urge people to try not to take sides, of course we all do and will all have a bias to one side or another but try to keep an open mind to what the others are going through. Work for peace not just to show the other side as the bad guy. Neither group needs to be pushed into the sea as many have suggested in my lifetime.
Copletely agree with you

[Ali]

So, we ignore the Settler Issue and hope that everything will be OK?

[bobi]

So, we ignore the Settler Issue and hope that everything will be OK?
I already posted, what we should do with the settlers.

[Ali]

I already posted, what we should do with the settlers.
Yes you did. Draw them out, offer them money and places to stay elsewhere.

You didn't say what would happen to the ones who are there for a "cause". Those are the Settlers I was referring to in my link. They are not going to leave, are they?

[Thundercracker]

Yes you did. Draw them out, offer them money and places to stay elsewhere.

You didn't say what would happen to the ones who are there for a "cause". Those are the Settlers I was referring to in my link. They are not going to leave, are they?

you really think these idiots have any choice?
the jewish settlers are finally going out of the gaza strip and there's no quiestion about it.

[Ali]

you really think these idiots have any choice?
the jewish settlers are finally going out of the gaza strip and there's no quiestion about it.
Not long ago, I went to see a woman in a settlement in northern Gaza. She has decided to move her family out of the narrow strip of land.

She wants her home left standing. She hopes a poor Palestinian family might get to move in.

As we chatted on her doorstep, a group of protesters came up to her. They began arguing and then shouting.

One of them turned to the woman's 16-year-old daughter. "I hope a terrorist comes and kills you," he said.

The girl went back inside in tears.

Those doing the shouting do not want Israel to abandon what they believe is land given to them by God.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4607000/4607021.stm
Things are going to get ugly.

[Monsieur Decuts]

How can anyone living in the US of A look down their noses at Isreal.

All of you go give a big hug and an apology to a Native American now, then go back to your houses built on sacred lands.

[bobi]

Things are going to get ugly.
For sure, it's gonna be very hot summer.
Some of them will leave and take the money, other will resist, get kicked in the ass by the police and then they will take the money.
Anyway they are talking alot now, but when the time will arrive the police will take them back in Israel.
In 1981 when we draw out the settlers from Sinai (Egypt), also was resistance, but in the end, they really got no choise.

[Ali]

but in the end, they really got no choise.good

I have no time for religious fanatics

[bobi]

good

I have no time for religious fanatics
I don't no if you know how is to live with fanatics from both sides (settlers/hamas). It's pretty fucked up.

[Ali]

I don't no if you know how is to live with fanatics from both sides (settlers/hamas). It's pretty fucked up.That's what I meant, it's the fanatics from both sides who are causing all the shit.

But remember who created the Settlers and Hamas in the first place? Remember who trained and armed Bin Laden and who helped Saddam get into power?

They who sowed the wind now reap the storm. The settlers were encouraged by the Israeli Govt and Hamas was Arafat's lever in the region. Now they are beyond control and more people are going to die.

[bobi]

That's what I meant, it's the fanatics from both sides who are causing all the shit.
Now they are beyond control and more people are going to die.

I think we past the the first wave of this deadly "tsunami" and I hope things gonna calm, like the silence after storm and make us talk like human beings. And if we are not capable (from both side of the fence) to keep our shit (settlers/hamas) under control then the "tidal wave" should draw us (both sides) deep deep in the ocean.
That's how I feel somethimes, cause I know there is no peace without justice.

[Ali]

I think we past the the first wave of this deadly "tsunami" and I hope things gonna calm, like the silence after storm and make us talk like human beings. And if we are not capable (from both side of the fence) to keep our shit (settlers/hamas) under control then the "tidal wave" should draw us (both sides) deep deep in the ocean.
That's how I feel somethimes, cause I know there is no peace without justice. Did you ever hear about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? (http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/) It was an opportunity for people from both sides of the Struggle against Apartheid to come forward and confess their crimes in public and to look their victims and their families in the eye and say they were truly sorry.

It was based on the premise that people in bad situations are liable to do things which they might not have otherwise done. There were scenes of Apartheid Regime policemen in tears at the hearings and being forgiven by the victims and their families and allowed to start a new life.

It was the single thing which saved South Africa and allowed everybody to put the past behind them and start all over again.

It seems to me that something like this is necessary in the Middle East.