Guns?

[Father_dougal]

Is it your right to own, or are the gun laws a vital component in what is wrong in america? Discuss.


(ps, i'm british. on the outside looking in so to speak, i wanna see your ideas.)

[EN[i]GMA]

The government cannot tell you how you can or cannot defend yourself.

You're giving the chief murderer of the last 100 years (The state) the privilage of telling you what weapons you can carry around?

Gun control works! Ask Hitler or Stalin.

That being said, I don't think people should have thermonuclear weapons or aircraft carriers simply for the fact that the damage caused by these weapons is beyond control.

[Father_dougal]

GMA']The government cannot tell you how you can or cannot defend yourself.

You're giving the chief murderer of the last 100 years (The state) the privilage of telling you what weapons you can carry around?

Gun control works! Ask Hitler or Stalin.

That being said, I don't think people should have thermonuclear weapons or aircraft carriers simply for the fact that the damage caused by these weapons is beyond control.

Good points. But like everything, it all rests on wether people can be trusted with guns. Maybe there should be tighter controls on how people can get guns, and tighter controls on nutters like the NRA.

[Sgt Asswipe]

Guns don't kill people. People do.

[Father_dougal]

Guns don't kill people. People do.

Actually, its the bullets. Your part way there.

[Sgt Asswipe]

Actually, its the bullets. Your part way there.
The mind is the weapon, the gun is the ammunition.

[Father_dougal]

The mind is the weapon, the gun is the ammunition.

Look, do you want me to shoot you or not?

[Sgt Asswipe]

Look, do you want me to shoot you or not?
Shoot THIS asshole!

*raises middle finger*

[Father_dougal]

Shoot THIS asshole!

*raises middle finger*

*Dies swirting blood everywhere*

[Ace42]

GMA']
Gun control works! Ask Hitler or Stalin.


Or Swiss adult males.

[Qdrop]

The mind is the weapon, the gun is the ammunition.

he's right.

and i've had this conversation before.

people kill because of what's in thier heads.....not what's in thier hands.

sure, guns could make it easier....but removing that gun won't remove the intent to kill.
what if that person just replaces it with a home-made pipebomb?

banning or further restricting guns does not address the REASON people kill.
it comes down to culture....our culture.


currently, criminals could give 2 shits about restrictions and gun regulations. if they want a gun...they get one on the black market, ect.

if you ban guns or further restrict them....you will only punish the law abiding citizens...the ones that actually play by the rules.
you will have little effect on the criminals....the killers.

look at drugs and alcohol....what effects did/does banning have on them?
narcotics and the lot have been banned for a century....but i could get you a bag of weed and a gram of coke by closing time today if i was so inclined.

if the demand is there.....someone will supply it.
no matter what you do.

yes, drugs and alcohol also possess addictive qualities that guns do not...so it is not a perfect comparison...

but the supply/demand connection stands....
people want their guns (in this country).....i mean REALLY want thier guns.


we should focus more on WHY our culture kills so much.....rather than what they use to kill with.
otherwise, you are missing the root of the problem.


i suppose one could try and argue that the simple act of possessing a gun makes you more violent.
but i think that becomes a very convaluted and circular argument....

[Qdrop]

Or Swiss adult males.

ace, he's paid his pennance.

let it go.

[Ace42]

let it go.

Feh... It is one of the few drivelling pieces of crap he has spewed that has actually been memorable... I'd be more than happy to rotate it with other shining examples of him pulling shit out of his ass, but I really, REALLY don't have the inclination to dig up more things.

Hopefully, next time he starts sounding off about what he knows, he'll remember that most of what he "knows" is supported solely by evidence of his own imagining.

[EN[i]GMA]

Oh no, my frail and shattered ego!

[QueenAdrock]

people should have to pass an intelligence test before operating anything that can kill other people. so cars, and guns. and probably other stuff.

i just hate the people who buy guns just because they're afraid. and something like 80% of guns are used against people in their own family. like, daughter comes home late and father didn't even know she was out, uh-oh, he thought she was an intruder and now she's dead.

they should have stricter laws if they're going to allow people to have them.

[EN[i]GMA]

people should have to pass an intelligence test before operating anything that can kill other people. so cars, and guns. and probably other stuff.

i just hate the people who buy guns just because they're afraid. and something like 80% of guns are used against people in their own family. like, daughter comes home late and father didn't even know she was out, uh-oh, he thought she was an intruder and now she's dead.

they should have stricter laws if they're going to allow people to have them.

Stupid people don't have the right to defend themselves?

A eugenicist perhaps?

[Ace42]

GMA']Stupid people don't have the right to defend themselves?


Stupid people can't defend themselves, and guns won't change that.

[Funkaloyd]

Would firearms need to be used for defence if tighter gun control laws were in place?

[Ali]

something like 80% of guns are used against people in their own family.A clear case for Natural Selection if ever I saw one.

I say let gun owners collect as many guns as they want.

That way they'll die out quicker.

[EN[i]GMA]

Would firearms need to be used for defence if tighter gun control laws were in place?

People who are attemping to rape, murder and steal are going to follow gun laws?

That makese sense.

[EN[i]GMA]

Stupid people can't defend themselves, and guns won't change that.

Sure they can, if properly armed.

Daft people are often good shots.

[QueenAdrock]

GMA']People who are attemping to rape, murder and steal are going to follow gun laws?

That makese sense.

The key words being "gun control laws." I.E. harder for them to get it. It won't make it impossible for crazies to get one (they can always steal them), but it'll make it tougher and cut down on a lot of violent crimes.

[Ace42]

GMA']
Daft people are often good shots.

And are the easiest to manipulate. Which means those "daft people who are good shots" are guaranteed to be the ones shooting at those smart enough to realise they are being oppressed.

[Qdrop]

The key words being "gun control laws." I.E. harder for them to get it. It won't make it impossible for crazies to get one (they can always steal them), but it'll make it tougher and cut down on a lot of violent crimes.

i could not disagree more.

[Qdrop]

And are the easiest to manipulate. Which means those "daft people who are good shots" are guaranteed to be the ones shooting at those smart enough to realise they are being oppressed.

"SWEET HOME ALABAMA..."

[QueenAdrock]

i could not disagree more.

You couldn't disagree more with what I believe he meant when he said "gun control laws"?

Well, to each his own.

[Funkaloyd]

Over here it seems that they don't need to be used for defence because they're not used for defence. Firearms have to be kept in gun safes, separate from their ammunition, often with trigger locks on, and pistols are considered as dangerous as automatic weapons (and are therefor regulated as such). Of course bad people are going to get their hands on firearms if you have millions of people with handguns in their glove compartments, in their bedside draws and under their pillows.

So I think that whatever your opinion of the 2nd Amendment, guns don't stop violent crime. Those who are anti-regulation would have more of a case if they argued from a freedom angle.

[EN[i]GMA]

And are the easiest to manipulate. Which means those "daft people who are good shots" are guaranteed to be the ones shooting at those smart enough to realise they are being oppressed.

True enough.

But your vast intelligence means jack shit when you're getting shot at.

Unless you're smart enough to dodge bullets.

Or use mind bullets.

[EN[i]GMA]

Over here it seems that they don't need to be used for defence because they're not used for defence. Firearms have to be kept in gun safes, separate from their ammunition, often with trigger locks on, and pistols are considered as dangerous as automatic weapons (and are therefor regulated as such). Of course bad people are going to get their hands on firearms if you have millions of people with handguns in their glove compartments, in their bedside draws and under their pillows.

So I think that whatever your opinion of the 2nd Amendment, guns don't stop violent crime. Those who are anti-regulation would have more of a case if they argued from a freedom angle.

The 2nd Ammendment doesn't have an opinion, it's the stating of a right, a right granted naturally, not from the Government or God, namely, the right to defend yourself.

It's not about stopping violent crime, it's about rights.

But I do believe they stop crime.

[Funkaloyd]

But nature didn't give me the right to oppress your ass?

[EN[i]GMA]

But nature didn't give me the right to oppress your ass?

Of course not.

[Ace42]

GMA']But your vast intelligence means jack shit when you're getting shot at.

Firstly, intelligent people tend not to get themselves shot at. A stupid person is more likely to walk into an ambush or otherwise dangerous situation than a clever person.

But, Guns empower the people least able to use them responsibly. As you rightly say, stupid people can kill just as easily with a gun as clever people. However stupid people are less likely to use guns safely (if such a thing can be done, the whole purpose of weaponry is the antithesis of safety) act responsibly, etc etc.

Look at gang warfare, stupid people shooting each other. Do guns "protect" them? No. You'd have us believe that gangs are too scared of each other (due to the fact that they are all 'packing' and thus lethally dangerous to mess with) to engage in gun-crime or violence. Infact the opposite is true.

Nope, guns escalate matters. Your 9mm isn't going to protect you if the army starts sending Abrams down your street. Neither is your recently legalised assault rifle.

Or do you think the second amendment should be interpreted to include tanks, ATRs, and everything up to and including nukes?

I know I'd feel so much safer knowing that any hick that hasn't yet commited a crime is perfectly entitled to have some of those babies...

[Ace42]

GMA']a right granted naturally

How can nature grant an abstract concept which can only be conceived of and understood by humans, and that permits the use of *artificial* objects?

Surely a right can only ever be artificial? There are no "rights" in nature.

[Ali]

The key words being "gun control laws." I.E. harder for them to get it. It won't make it impossible for crazies to get one (they can always steal them), but it'll make it tougher and cut down on a lot of violent crimes. They can always steal a gun from somebody who legally owns one, can't they?

[Qdrop]

They can always steal a gun from somebody who legally owns one, can't they?

yep, and they will. or go to the black market on the street.
no matter what gun restrictions are.

restictions and regulations do very little to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

[Funkaloyd]

They seem to do a Hell of a lot here.

[Ali]

In South Africa, nearly everybody owns a gun, there's no big deal about it... but God help you if it gets stolen. You get charged with criminal negligence and are forbidden ever to own a gun again.

Sensible enough. There's no point in forbidding people from owning guns, it just makes them have to own illegal guns. However, there is a huge amount of responsibility in owning a gun, not only in its use, but in preventing it from falling into the wrong hands. This is the part of gun ownership which should be most strictly enforced, to stop people from leaving them in their cars or lying around the house, etc.

[Qdrop]

They seem to do a Hell of a lot here.

explain.

and note the differances in our culture...

[Qdrop]

In South Africa, nearly everybody owns a gun, there's no big deal about it... but God help you if it gets stolen. You get charged with criminal negligence and are forbidden ever to own a gun again.

Sensible enough. There's no point in forbidding people from owning guns, it just makes them have to own illegal guns. However, there is a huge amount of responsibility in owning a gun, not only in its use, but in preventing it from falling into the wrong hands. This is the part of gun ownership which should be most strictly enforced, to stop people from leaving them in their cars or lying around the house, etc.


(y)

[Funkaloyd]

Basic regulation like storage requirements and stringent standards in firearms licensing seem to work well at keeping deadly weapons in the hands of those responsible enough to own them.

By "note the differences in our culture", you mean "don't forget that we're a bunch of crazy hicks"? :p

[Qdrop]

By "note the differences in our culture", you mean "don't forget that we're a bunch of crazy hicks"? :p

not exactly...
more like "we are a culture of fear.......and aggression."

american culture has ALWAYS glorified guns. we fought wars on our soil to gain independance and to fight for regional beliefs with them.
granted, most countries have....but our nation's history is VERY young compared to european nations. the revolutionary war and civil war are only generations before us....very close to us historically. and our culture loves that and loves celebrating that.
we are extremley proud of reletively recently fending off a mean old oppressive gov't with our guns only 200 years ago...and that feeling was quickly written into the constitution and celebrated ever since.

it was celebrated ego.
and people don't like others messing with their ego.

our country seems to realy see a neccessity for owning a gun. to protect from some unseen enemy. to feel the prestige, power, and ego boost of owning a gun like many in our historical culture have....
it makes us feel "ready", "useful"......

i'm not really condoning this....but i understand it.

we have a VERY odd culture.

[Ace42]

to protect from some unseen enemy.

I agree with people who posit that it is because of an immense national guilt. Subconsciouslly most yanks know that their entire nation is built on the back of injustice (Stealing land off injuns, importing slave labour, oppressing blacks through to [and arguably past] the sixties, etc etc) and know that without the boom-stick it would be equally easy for Karma to change it round.

That is why the US film industry is so full of "alien invaders" b-movies, even to the present day with the like of Independance Day and Signs. Yanks fear the "big, technologically advanced" and culturally 'alien' civilisation coming and doing the same.

Yankland is the Ring, and you yanks are Gollum coveting his precious, securing it from anyone who might take it.

That's also why you guys are also so shit scared of the spics hopping the border.

[Medellia]

Yankland is the Ring, and you yanks are Gollum coveting his precious, securing it from anyone who might take it.

That's also why you guys are also so shit scared of the spics hopping the border.
Because the people coming across the border are Frodo trying to destroy the ring in the fires of Mount Doom?


Oh god, that's embarassing.

[QueenAdrock]

No, Mexicans are the nasty little hobbitses trying to steal MY PRECIOUS!

We hates them.

[Medellia]

I'm confused. Is France Legolas?

[BIRDY]

ACTULY DAT PERSON WAS RIGHT PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE CHIOCE TO PULL THE TRIGER ITS THERE DECISION SO ITS KINDA RIGHT I NO U NEED A BULLET BUT IF SUM 1 CHOSES TO DO IT PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE IF U DIVNT UNDERSTAND IGNOR ME LOL :p

[EN[i]GMA]

I agree with people who posit that it is because of an immense national guilt. Subconsciouslly most yanks know that their entire nation is built on the back of injustice (Stealing land off injuns, importing slave labour, oppressing blacks through to [and arguably past] the sixties, etc etc) and know that without the boom-stick it would be equally easy for Karma to change it round.

That is why the US film industry is so full of "alien invaders" b-movies, even to the present day with the like of Independance Day and Signs. Yanks fear the "big, technologically advanced" and culturally 'alien' civilisation coming and doing the same.

Yankland is the Ring, and you yanks are Gollum coveting his precious, securing it from anyone who might take it.

That's also why you guys are also so shit scared of the spics hopping the border.

Than I guess that makes Britons LOTR fanboys dressing up as Elves to camp out for 3 days to watch our movie, premiering in Iraq.

[Ace42]

GMA']Than I guess that makes Britons LOTR fanboys dressing up as Elves to camp out for 3 days to watch our movie, premiering in Iraq.

Was there a point to that post, other than a pisspoor attempt to jump on the bandwagon?

[bb_bboy]

it was celebrated ego.
and people don't like others messing with their ego.


I think that the roundabout equation of gun ownership with ego substantiation is one of the problems with gun use in America. People who ardently believe that they are joining the historical ranks of the minutemen simply because they can obtain a firearm are more than just foolish. Those who unconsciously seek to enhance their own self image by drawing on such irrelevant imagery need counseling. Guns as tools are at best efficient, guns as emotional and psychological crutches are at best dangerous.

In another vein, I am more worried about non-violent non-criminals having guns than violent criminals. Why? Because I deal with non-violent non-criminals all the time, and I deal with violent criminals rarely. My chances of being shot by a non-violent non-criminal are much, much higher.