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View Full Version : Karl Rove is a douche


QueenAdrock
06-24-2005, 11:17 AM
I know, I don't really need anything to prove my title because this is a well-known fact as it is, but listen to what he said yesterday:

"Perhaps the most important difference between conservatives and liberals can be found in the area of national security. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

I like how when the Democrats say that Republicans want to divide the country and not unite it, the Republicans angrily deny it. And then they come out with horseshit like this.


Listen to what Kerry responded, however:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make America Safe, Not Divided
Excerpts of remarks by Senator John Kerry on the Senate floor on Thursday, June 23.
"None of us here will ever forget the hours after September 11... and the remarkable response of the American people as we came together as one to answer the attack on our homeland.... [I]t brought out the best of all of us in America.

That spirit of our country should never be reduced to a cheap, divisive political applause line from anyone who speaks for the President of the United States.

I am proud, as my colleagues on this side are, that after September 11, all of the people of this country rallied to President Bush's call for unity to meet the danger. There were no Democrats, there were no Republicans, there were only Americans. That is why it is really hard to believe that last night in New York... the most senior adviser to the President of the United States [was] purposely twisting those days of unity in order to divide us for political gain.

Rather than focusing attention on Osama bin Laden and finding him or rather than focusing attention on just smashing al-Qaida and uniting our effort, as we have been, he is, instead, challenging the patriotism of every American who is every bit as committed to fighting terror as is he.

Just days after 9/11, the Senate voted 98 to nothing, and the House voted 420 to 1, to authorize President Bush to use all necessary and appropriate force against terror. And after the bipartisan vote, President Bush said: "I'm gratified that the Congress has united so powerfully by taking this action. It sends a clear message. Our people are together and we will prevail."

That is not the message that was sent by Karl Rove in New York City last night. Last night, he said: "No more needs to be said about" their "motives."

I think a lot more needs to be said about Karl Rove's motives because they are not the people's motives... They are not the motives of a nation that found unity in that critical moment--Democrat and Republican alike, all of us as Americans.

If the President really believes his own words, if those words have meaning, he should at the very least expect a public apology from Karl Rove. And frankly, he ought to fire him. If the President of the United States knows the meaning of those words, then he ought to listen to the plea of Kristen Breitweiser, who lost her husband when the Twin Towers came crashing down. She said: "If you are going to use 9/11, use it to make this nation safer than it was on 9/11."

Karl Rove doesn't owe me an apology and he doesn't owe Democrats an apology. He owes the country an apology. He owes Kristen Breitweiser and a lot of people like her, those families, an apology. He owes an apology to every one of those families who paid the ultimate price on 9/11 and expect their government to be doing all possible to keep the unity of their country and to fight an effective war on terror.

The fact is, millions of Americans...are asking Washington for honesty, for results, and for leadership--not for political division. Before Karl Rove delivers another political assault, he ought to stop and think about those families and the unity of 9/11."
------------------------------------------------

Fire Karl Rove...ah, if only to dream.

valvano
06-24-2005, 11:21 AM
what wrong with what he said? just as with crime in generals, liberals want to "understand" the criminal, turn the criminal into the victim, psycho-analyze, etc.

QueenAdrock
06-24-2005, 11:26 AM
Hmm...what's wrong with it...let's see.

It's a lie. You're generalizing, and BADLY might I add. We have NEVER sympathized with the terrorists from 9/11, or tried to make them a "victim". However, the far, FAR right-wing who says that 9/11 was a good thing because it got rid of all the "fags" that were in the twin towers...what's that say, hmm?

Ace42
06-24-2005, 11:48 AM
liberals want to "understand" the criminal, turn the criminal into the victim, psycho-analyze, etc.

If by that, you mean want to employ progressive methods of crime-prevention, instead of archaic and inneffective punitive measures, then yes.

To reiterate "liberals want to use methods that work, conservatives want to use methods that make themselves feel better."

D_Raay
06-24-2005, 12:25 PM
what wrong with what he said? just as with crime in generals, liberals want to "understand" the criminal, turn the criminal into the victim, psycho-analyze, etc.
What was it Jon Stewart just said ? I believe it was something like, "9/11 references amongst Republicans on the floor of Congress are like Lays Potato Chips... You just know you won't only hear one."

That is the problem. The political exploitation of a tragedy.

Qdrop
06-24-2005, 12:33 PM
Fire Karl Rove...ah, if only to dream.

shit, karl rove could have Bush fired if he wanted.

BGirl
06-24-2005, 12:51 PM
QueenAdrock, I got that email from John Kerry today and signed his letter right away, with an indignant note! :mad: I don't know, I had been slacking on that sort of thing. I think you've inspired me to get back to work. ;) Thanks for posting this.

http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rove.php

(I know it feels pointless to ask Bush to respond to the Downing Street memos or fire Karl Rove (or in the past Rumsfeld or whoever), or do ANYTHING reasonable but when we get these calls from people in Congress it's still worth signing on. It certainly doesn't hurt anyway.)

And... haha Qdrop is on point. :D

valvano
06-24-2005, 01:09 PM
To reiterate "liberals want to use methods that work, conservatives want to use methods that make themselves feel better."


You know, I've never heard of a murderer who has been executed coming back and killing anybody else.........have you??

:p

But I have heard of murderes being paroled and killing again.....

:eek:

And I've heard of child molesters getting freed and molesting children again....

:eek:

In fact, here's an example of your typical do-gooder liberal , Norman Mailer , now associated with the moveon.org crowd, who fought for a criminal to be freed, and then the murderer killed again weeks later:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/abbottmug1.html

Yep, your "progressive" policies sure do work!!
:rolleyes:

BGirl
06-24-2005, 01:36 PM
Valvano, I don't think any of that has anything to do with what Karl Rove said. He was talking about the 9/11 terrorists. He was lying, and attacking Democrats and liberals using 9/11. Is this good for the country? Didn't Bush say he was a uniter, not a divider?

And JESUS I'm sick of their using 9/11 to further their agenda. It was disgusting at the start and only gets more so. And it's tiresome.

Ace42
06-24-2005, 01:44 PM
You know, I've never heard of a murderer who has been executed coming back and killing anybody else.........have you?

I've never heard of a falsely convicted murderer who has been executed coming back after his exonoration. Have you? I've heard of plenty of falsely convicted murderers being exonerated and released who have merely been serving lengthy custodial sentences. But that is beside the point.

But I have heard of murderes being paroled and killing again

Not if they are serving consecutive life sentences they haven't.

And I've heard of child molesters getting freed and molesting children again

And I've heard of castrated child molesters getting freed and molesting children again.

Yep, your "progressive" policies sure do work!!
:rolleyes:

In all the examples you cited, the only recourse would've been either life imprisonment or execution. Unless your "conservative tough on crime" stance means that all criminal activities must result in executions, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Firstly, non-permanent non-terminal custodial sentences are not "progressive" - they have been around longer than your country has. All the examples you cited were not the product of "my" progressive policies. They were the product of the same legal system that has been operating in your and other countries for centuries.

Those failures exemplify the failings of the punitive system, not the alternatives.

Secondly, capital punishment is not a detterant. After capital punishment was abolished in the UK, the crime rate did not soar. Infact, there is a lot less violent crime in the UK than the US, and we have a substantially more "liberal" system than you do. Not "liberal" enough, clearly, but the proof is in the pudding.

Prisons are often described as "universties of crime" - if we are going to start throwing around anecdotal evidence like it counts for shit, then try this on for size - there are numerous (far more numerous than the sensationalised examples you gave) accounts of people who have been imprisoned for minor offences, and after spending time inside have been released and commited substantially more vicious and significant crimes. Someone who steals a car to stop the bank forclosing and evicting his children onto the street tends to lose social restraint after his kids are put into care, he doesn't get to see them for years and years, and is repeatedly sodomised. When he is then released he has no home, no family connections, no job, nothing apart from a handful of notes that will keep him alive for a week. What does he do then? Quietly starve to death because people won't give an ex-con a job? Or does he use the information he has aquired talking to other convicts to improve his technique and thus reoffend? Because that is what happens in 80% of cases.

Infact, the reason Alcatraz was decommisioned was because the oppresive system turned burglars and kleptomaniacs into psychotic killers and rapists. In more conservative punitive orientated penal systems, reoffence rates can average around 80%. The re-offence rate for people who receive rehabilitation and support is substantially lower than that.

The SEU set off on a mighty investigation, using five civil servants to work full time for nine months, trawling through statistics and research, visiting prisons, interviewing experts, talking to officials in government departments, all in search of an answer.

And they found it. In July 2002, they published their report, Reducing reoffending by ex-prisoners - 218 pages of analysis, packed with facts and figures, supported by more than 400 footnotes. Its conclusions were clear.

Essentially, they boiled down to three big themes. First: "Prison sentences are not succeeding in turning the majority of offenders away from crime."

Second: "A prison sentence can - and frequently does - make things worse."

Finally: the real key to reducing offending was to attack its causes (just as the prime minister had been saying). Homelessness, unemployment, drug and alcohol problems, mental health problems, physical health problems, educational problems - these were the seeds from which crime grew, seeds which were fertilised by the impact of imprisonment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1511629,00.html

Let me reiterate the second point "A prison sentence can - and frequently does - make things worse."

But of course, you know better than 'conclusions [that] were backed by irresistible evidence, supported by seven different government departments which had been consulted, and delivered direct to the most powerful figure in government, who duly welcomed them as "a significant contribution to our understanding of what works in combating crime".'

valvano
06-24-2005, 02:29 PM
that's some good brainy gobbily gook you've spouted out.........

maybe that explains why street crime is up in the UK, and in fact now that their gun bans arent really working, they now want to ban knives in the UK,
what next, cricket bats?

DC is doing really well to in their "progressive" approach to crime, just this week the chief of police had his police car stolen...ha ha ha

why don't you go join mike ferrell (the mash guy) at his next crying session for murderers??

STANKY808
06-24-2005, 02:36 PM
And everything you mention is happening in the country with the highest incarceration rate in the industrialized world. So locking them up is really working.

Ace42
06-24-2005, 02:41 PM
that's some good brainy gobbily gook you've spouted out...

Yeah, I feel it is sensible to counterbalance your spurious posturing with actual facts and logical reasoning.

maybe that explains why street crime is up in the UK

If you had read the article I linked to, you'd see that the reason street crime is up in the UK is more likely because the SEU's recommendations have NOT been put into place, and infact the government has been moving to a more authoritarian US model of law enforcement.

Funny, an article says quite clearly that progressive methods of tackling re-offending are NOT being adhered to, and you say "look how progressive methods (which are not being supported) are making things worse!"

I say funny, I mean tragic.

and in fact now that their gun bans arent really working, they now want to ban knives in the UK

"and now that gun bans aren't having an effect on gun crime they want to ban knives to reduce gun crime" ? That makes sense.

what next, cricket bats?

Of course, everyone knows that cricket bats lead to increases in gun crime...

Let's refresh our memories on this: "School shootings in the UK since handguns were banned: 0" What's the tally in the US?

DC is doing really well to in their "progressive" approach to crime, just this week the chief of police had his police car stolen...ha ha ha

Well that shot me down in flames. One person gets their car stolen, who just happens to be a policeman, clearly that must mean that all the scientific evidence to the contrary is wrong, and that the conservative "hang'em all" approach is doing just fine.

Despite the US having some of the worst crime-rates in the world...

why don't you go join mike ferrell (the mash guy) at his next crying session for murderers??

Why don't you pull your brain out of your ass and insert it somewhere it might do some good?

Or is having a valid opinion anathema to right-wing hicks like you?

QueenAdrock
06-24-2005, 02:51 PM
DC is doing really well to in their "progressive" approach to crime, just this week the chief of police had his police car stolen...ha ha ha

How about flaming liberal Martin O'Malley's "progressive" approach to crime?

Under Mayor O'Malley's leadership and through the hard work of police and neighbors, Baltimore is leading the nation in the rate of reduction of violent crime.

http://www.citymayors.com/usa/baltimore.html

yeahwho
06-25-2005, 05:50 PM
I don't even really care what the gist of this thread is about, I figure my whole day will go better knowing I posted in a thread titled "Karl Rove is a douche" :D

BGirl
06-26-2005, 09:33 AM
I don't even really care what the gist of this thread is about, I figure my whole day will go better knowing I posted in a thread titled "Karl Rove is a douche" :D

haha

I also like seeing "Karl Rove is a douche" on the main page of the boards.

:D