speeding up the death penalty

[beastieangel01]

link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20050706/pl_nm/crime_death_dc)

[Qdrop]

i'm all for it.

remove criminals from society permanantly

[adam_f]

I'm for it, but I find myself becoming less of a Republican by the day.

[Qdrop]

I'm for it, but I find myself becoming less of a Republican by the day.

i'm not a republican.

you don't have to be in order to be pro-death penalty.

you just have to be a pragmatist.

[adam_f]

I know, but I don't agree with anything anymore, so therefore I'm thinking about converting to Democratism.

[Qdrop]

I know, but I don't agree with anything anymore, so therefore I'm thinking about converting to Democratism.

why convert to any one party?

just be an independant. no need to conform.

the party system is assine and restricting...

[beastieangel01]

I know, but I don't agree with anything anymore, so therefore I'm thinking about converting to Democratism.

I did say I would like you more if you were not a Republican. But then you would no longer be my favorite Republican. ;P

And I still to this day am unsure of how I feel about the death penalty. I have never had a crime commited to a family member or friend, so I can't really say that if it happened I would not want the person to be put to death. But at the same time, I feel like the fact that there is a very good possiblity that innocents are being put to death is horrible.

And I have yet to be swayed one way or another on the topic. Maybe it is because of my indeciciveness on the topic, but I think this is a bad thing. It seems very unfair.

[Qdrop]

But at the same time, I feel like the fact that there is a very good possiblity that innocents are being put to death is horrible.



according to who?

anecdotal stories?

yes, there have been innocent men on death row.
but with DNA evidence...they are being vindicated and set free.

it's becoming much more difficult....if not next to impossible for an innocent man to sit on death row.

don't beleive the hype.

[beastieangel01]

according to who?

anecdotal stories?

yes, there have been innocent men on death row.
but with DNA evidence...they are being vindicated and set free.

it's becoming much more difficult....if not next to impossible for an innocent man to sit on death row.

don't beleive the hype.

it's not so much that I believe the hype, it's more of the fact that I think even one innocent death is one too many. And although I know that has already happened/will happen regardless of this, I still don't like it.

Perhaps I may thought of as too much of a bleeding heart, but that's how I feel.

[adam_f]

Originally posted by beastieangel01
I did say I would like you more if you were not a Republican. But then you would no longer be my favorite Republican. ;P

Well, if I did change, I would undoubtedly drop a few notches. If I stayed a Republican, I would be a consistent number 1.

I'm pretty sure my self-esteem requires me to stay a Republican.

The thing that bugs me about the death penalty is that for some, it's like getting life in prison, without parole. I don't know.

[Qdrop]

I'm pretty sure my self-esteem requires me to stay a Republican.



explain.

[adam_f]

Originally posted by Qdrop
explain.

I shouldn't have hit enter and that sentence should've been a part of the reply to BA01's statement. All a joke, buddy.

[beastieangel01]

I'm pretty sure my self-esteem requires me to stay a Republican.

The thing that bugs me about the death penalty is that for some, it's like getting life in prison, without parole. I don't know.

haha nice.

And yeah I could see why people wouldn't like that.

Like I said, maybe I'm too much of a bleeding heart. But I could not imagine what it would be like for the family of an innocent to lose them due to being wrongly accused of a crime. Even just one innocent.

My head hurts even thinking about the death penalty due to my mixture of feelings on it.

[STANKY808]

according to who?

anecdotal stories?

yes, there have been innocent men on death row.
but with DNA evidence...they are being vindicated and set free.

it's becoming much more difficult....if not next to impossible for an innocent man to sit on death row.

don't beleive the hype.

So if the problem was shown to be systemic and widespread your opinion might change?

The fact that one person has been wrongly executed is enough for me to be against it. I don't have proof of this happening, but given how many have been vindicated through things like DNA, I don't see how it couldn't have happened already.

The issue of inequalities in it's application also make it hard to swallow. If you got dough you get a lawyer who probably won't be drunk in the court room or fall asleep during the trial. Public defender? Thanks! And get old sparky ready.

Not all trials hinge on DNA (and even if they did - DNA testing isn't always 100% reliable). Things like finger prints as we now know can be misidentified. Even eye witnesses have been shown to be prone to error for many reason (fear, racial differences).

For these reasons and more, I'll continue to be against it.

[EN[i]GMA]

Yep

Would God say such a thing?

Doesn't God love them?

Shouldn't you?

[marsdaddy]

Qdrop, you're the exception, but still misguided. I'm betting you're prochoice, too. Most people who are pro-death penalty are also anti-choice. The sanctity of life is somehow reserved for underdeveloped, fertilized eggs -- unless those eggs gestate, develop, are born, and grow up to break the law.

As mentioned, not all cases are decided by DNA. Scott Peterson's case was circumstantial. I'm not saying he's innocent, but what if he is? DNA will never clear him.

I seem to remember the governor of Illinios pardoned a bunch of death row inmates last year. Didn't it have to do with the fact that most of them are black. So this is not some old news problem that is now solved by DNA. Why are the overwhelming majority of death row inmates minorities? This is one reason the death penalty doesn't work.

I don't think there is any justification for the death penalty. While some people do commit reprehensible crimes, for the government to put them to death is to say their life is meaningless. If the government can't hold all life valuable, no matter the qualities of the person, how can we?

BTW, the argument that if something happened to my family, I'd want them put to death does not justify the death penalty. If I decided to take the law into my own hands and dole out punishment, I'd have to accept the consequences. But, for the government to do it, the consequence is devaluing life.

[SobaViolence]

the death penalty desn't cure anything. it may kill an individual or even a whole group, nothing good comes of it, society will still breed those who prey of it and it will continue the cycle of intolerance and hate.


i gotta go with jesus on this on, and not the bastardized one. the real jesus. forgive, understand, help, love.

the crime rate barely ever goes down with capital punishment in place. slightly if ever.

[zorra_chiflada]

this is something that i've pointed out before, but i didn't get a response:

this stong pro-death penalty mentality is something i have only witnessed from americans.
i often hear/read people from the US saying things like "yeah! kill the fuckers! they deserve to die!" and they're serious about it!! it absolutely sickens me.

why are americans so eager to kill off unsavoury members of society? and to the christians - do you think that is acceptable in the eyes of god?

[QueenAdrock]

yes, there have been innocent men on death row.
but with DNA evidence...they are being vindicated and set free.


Speaking of which, CSI is pissing me off. My dad was a forensic chemist for 30 years (up till this year), working for the government. Because of that goddamn show and all the emphasis on DNA evidence, people are going free now due to "lack of evidence." For some reason now, people think that if there aren't full fingerprints and spilled blood of both victims and the accused on the carpet, that means they didn't do it. They've had to hire people to talk to juries, to tell them that a lot of cases don't have 100% evidence, that they have to see the evidence they do have and base their decision on that. You'll see this shit all the time now; they'll have found partial fingerprints on bomb fragments and have gone to the man's shack out in the woods and found duct tape that's the same type on the bomb, along with the same kind of chemical residue that was used in the bomb... but since there weren't FULL fingerprints, or hair folicles at the crime scene, the juries don't want to point the finger too fast. All the evidence points to the man being guilty, but thanks to these new shows and ideas about forensic chemistry, people believe that there needs to be more.


So now guilty people are going free. You see the same damn thing with the Jackson case. Not "enough" evidence, (i.e. no goddamn fingerprints on the boys) so he goes free. On ALL charges. Even on giving alcohol to minors. They have evidence, but it's never enough nowadays.

[QueenAdrock]

I believe that if you murder, your life should be taken.

So by your theory, Bush should be killed. Bush has murdered many inmates.

Who is to judge who is to die? If you're against abortions, then you should be against the death penalty too. Isn't God the only one who can say whether things can live or die? Who are you to say that they should be killed? That's not your decision.

If someone killed someone I loved, I believe it would be a MUCH harsher punishment to see him rot away in prison and be sodomized daily, rather than put him out of his misery and have him die. When he dies, his life ends. The end. It doesn't bring justice or any comfort to the families; I'd much rather see that fucker in prison in 90 years, having thought about what he did EVERY DAY, as he looked out of the prison bars on the free world around him.

[QueenAdrock]

You are a yahoo. God put Government into place. When the US goes to war, it does not target innocent people. Abortion targets innocent babys.

The Murderer has also targeted and killed an innocent person.

Have you every been shot at? I think if you have, your opinion would change.

So God says it's okay to kill if you think they're guilty? I'm not talking about war, I'm talking about the death penalty. Bush has killed many inmates when he was a governor in Texas.

And P.S. I believe in the death penalty. However, I also believe in abortion because I'm not a hypocrite. I believe that both can be used special circumstances, and should be used only when necessary, not as a way of birth control, or as a way to get criminals off the street.

I believe people such as Osama should be put to death, and other people who have had equally as vicious crimes. I also believe that if a woman is raped, she shouldn't have to deal with having a hate crime grow inside her, reminding her of the horrible act that was committed against her. Like I said, extreme circumstances. If you're TRULY a Christian, you can't support one and not the other. That's being a hypocrite. It doesn't matter whether you think they're "innocent" or whatever, God says "Thou shalt not kill" and it's going against his law to kill anyone. And in war, many innocent civilians die, so how can you support that? This is why I had respect for the Pope; he was a true Christian in that he was against the war, against abortion, against the death penalty, and against poverty - he had ONE stance, saying he was against killing/death, etc. He didn't do this pick and choose shit like most Christians do where they say it's okay to kill if they're bad people. That's going against God's will; you play God whenever you kill. If he wanted them dead, he'd do it himself.

HAHAHA God puts government in place...how do you explain all the democrats in office then? Hmm? How about the atheists who are in the government, how'd they get in there?

[Documad]

Nice to see people making excellent points about the problems with the death penalty. The one that troubles me the most is the lack of good lawyers. It's amazing how some of the states that are most eager to kill their citizens are the least likely to give them qualified attorneys.

yes, there have been innocent men on death row.
but with DNA evidence...they are being vindicated and set free.

it's becoming much more difficult....if not next to impossible for an innocent man to sit on death row.

don't believe the hype.
Don't believe CSI.

DNA evidence wasn't available in most of the homicide cases I've worked on. I could never do my job if I lived in a death penalty state.

My favorite part of the article: "'Defense attorneys have come to believe the longer they delay, the better it is for their clients,' Lungren [legislative proponent of the new law] said in an interview."

NO SHIT! Those crazy defense attorneys think it's better if they keep their clients alive!

Speaking of which, CSI is pissing me off. My dad was a forensic chemist for 30 years (up till this year), working for the government. Because of that goddamn show and all the emphasis on DNA evidence, people are going free now due to "lack of evidence." For some reason now, people think that if there aren't full fingerprints and spilled blood of both victims and the accused on the carpet, that means they didn't do it. They've had to hire people to talk to juries, to tell them that a lot of cases don't have 100% evidence, that they have to see the evidence they do have and base their decision on that. You'll see this shit all the time now; they'll have found partial fingerprints on bomb fragments and have gone to the man's shack out in the woods and found duct tape that's the same type on the bomb, along with the same kind of chemical residue that was used in the bomb... but since there weren't FULL fingerprints, or hair folicles at the crime scene, the juries don't want to point the finger too fast. All the evidence points to the man being guilty, but thanks to these new shows and ideas about forensic chemistry, people believe that there needs to be more.


So now guilty people are going free. You see the same damn thing with the Jackson case. Not "enough" evidence, (i.e. no goddamn fingerprints on the boys) so he goes free. On ALL charges. Even on giving alcohol to minors. They have evidence, but it's never enough nowadays.


This is also true. Lots of prosecutors are astounded by it. And I predicted it after seeing the first 3 episodes ever aired of CSI. I went to a medical examiner's class and said that they were in big, big trouble. And everyone thought I was crazy.

[marsdaddy]

The Murderer has also targeted and killed an innocent person. So, if only guilty people are murdered, it's okay?

But, everyone is innocent or can repent, in the eyes of God, right?

Murderers on death row always find religion before they die. It's kind of interesting that those with nothing to live for always find God -- maybe a plea for their souls. I wonder if it helps.

And the death penalty doesn't have any affect on crime rates. Criminals don't commit crimes with the idea that they might get caught. Look at stats from before the US made the death penalty legal again and those since and there is virtually no change in death penalty type crimes. The only major changes in crime rates follow economic cycles. Better times equal less crime. I know this is a complex issue, but I bet it's safe to distill it down to poorer people are less poor in better economic times hence less likely to commit crimes.

[avignon]

Exodus 21:12-15 (New International Version)



12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15 "Anyone who attacks [a] his father or his mother must be put to death.

Do you think it is fair to the victoms family to let the murderer live? Is it fair to society? Is it good to let the murderer rot in prison for 90 years? I believe that if you murder, your life should be taken.
"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head." Leviticus 20:9 NIV
Seems a bit harsh to me. There would be no more teenagers.
"A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own hands." Leviticus 20:27 NIV
"Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death." Numbers 35:17 NIV
So If I stone someone for being a spiritist, then I am the stoner and the stoner is the murderer and so becomes the stonee. Then the stoners of said stonee must then be stoned. I suppose the only way to end the killing is to slaughter the fatted calf and make a burnt offering, right?
To look in the Old Testament for reasons to back up modern day policies is just silly. You know it's silly. Stop it.

[yeahwho]

Hey! Sure they want to speed up the death penalty, but they're not all bad. I hear they really want to slow down the way you die.

Some people see lemons....others see lemonade.

[Documad]

Hey! Sure they want to speed up the death penalty, but they're not all bad. I hear they really want to slow down the way you die.

Some people see lemons....others see lemonade.
Is it me, or are you getting even funnier lately?

[Medellia]

Do you think it is fair to the victoms family to let the murderer live?
Oh, and has one of your family members been murdered? There were several people around here who lost family in the OKC bombing that DIDN'T want McVeigh executed. Not everybody who loses someone in that way wants the person to die.

[zorra_chiflada]

Do you think it is fair to the victoms family to let the murderer live? Is it fair to society? Is it good to let the murderer rot in prison for 90 years? I believe that if you murder, your life should be taken.

do you think going to prison for life is a holiday or something?! it's WORSE punishment than death!

i'm sorry, but this "if you murder, you get killed" mentality is really pathetic and outdated, to say the least. you would think that the most advanced country in the world would have evolved from this. unfortunately, the US is still in the dark ages.

[zorra_chiflada]

You are a yahoo. God put Government into place. When the US goes to war, it does not target innocent people. Abortion targets innocent babys.

The Murderer has also targeted and killed an innocent person.

Have you every been shot at? I think if you have, your opinion would change.

i assume you're a man.
therefore, you don't have any right to have such opinion on abortion.
i'm sorry, but that's my belief.

[zorra_chiflada]

Exodus 21:12-15 (New International Version)



12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15 "Anyone who attacks [a] his father or his mother must be put to death.


oh, by the way, do you honestly believe that god himself sat down with a pen and paper and wrote the bible?
i asked "is this acceptable through the eyes of god" not by by some contradictory bullshit book.

[zorra_chiflada]

Prisions are over crowded. I for one have better things to spend my tax dollars on than feeding a murderer for the rest of his life.


i would rather pay more tax to live in a better place. i'm sorry you don't feel this way.

for a christian, you're very heartless

[zorra_chiflada]

Excuse me? I told you the facts on abortion. We (humans) don't have the right to murder an innocent life. MOST babys are aborted because 2 people had sex and didn't plan on having a baby. MOST abortions happen for selfish reasons.

GOD DOES NOT LIKE THIS PROGRAM.

you act like people have abortions for fun, and it's a really easy choice to make. IT'S NOT
as a man, what a woman does with her body is none of your business.

[zorra_chiflada]

Excus me,

You want to kill an innocent baby using abortion, I want to kill the guilty murderer who has taken an innocent life.

You call me heartless. Your line of thought is twisted.

no mate, my line of thought is not trapped by religion like yours is ;)

[zorra_chiflada]

The baby is it's own life, with it's own DNA. It's not the mothers place to take that life as a means of birth control.

did you even read what i said?
abortion is only a last resort, when absolutely nothing else can be done. when that baby's life is in danger, or if it has no chance of having a decent life at all.

[zorra_chiflada]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't a jury convict the murderers? I don't think Bush had much to do with it. If the person was guilty of murder, he should be put to death.



so we can be murderers as well?

i know this is a really simple argument, but i can not understand at all why anyone thinks the death penalty is acceptable.

[Qdrop]

So if the problem was shown to be systemic and widespread your opinion might change? if it was widespread, yes.

The fact that one person has been wrongly executed is enough for me to be against it. I don't have proof of this happening, but given how many have been vindicated through things like DNA, I don't see how it couldn't have happened already. i'd rather let one guilty man die then have 1000 deviants of society spend thier lives in shelter with free food, cable,ect...on our dime.

The issue of inequalities in it's application also make it hard to swallow. If you got dough you get a lawyer who probably won't be drunk in the court room or fall asleep during the trial. Public defender? Thanks! And get old sparky ready. so because parts of our public legal system sucks....child rapists get cable and steak and free shelter for the rest of thier lives? and we pay for it? as the prison overcrowding becomes more of an epidemic.

Not all trials hinge on DNA (and even if they did - DNA testing isn't always 100% reliable). Things like finger prints as we now know can be misidentified. yeah, but come on....what are the real odds of DNA being wrong?
you're grasping at straws....

Even eye witnesses have been shown to be prone to error for many reason (fear, racial differences).

it just seems like whenever this argument comes up....people start digging up stories in thier mind they heard about or saw on Dateline about some innocent guy who spent 10 years on death row because of bad evidence and racist eyewitnesses and on and on....

why do people LOVE thier anecdotal or near anecdotal/anomoly stories?
and base thier fears on them?

[zorra_chiflada]

i'd rather let one guilty man die then have 1000 deviants of society spend thier lives in shelter with free food, cable,ect...on our dime.

so because parts of our public legal system sucks....child rapists get cable and steak and free shelter for the rest of thier lives? and we pay for it? as the prison overcrowding becomes more of an epidemic.


yeah, jail is a real bag of fun, isn't it? you should go there for your next holiday, Q!

[Qdrop]

Qdrop, you're the exception, but still misguided. ya know....you're arrogance enters the room 5 min before you do...

I'm betting you're prochoice, too. i am.

Most people who are pro-death penalty are also anti-choice. The sanctity of life is somehow reserved for underdeveloped, fertilized eggs -- unless those eggs gestate, develop, are born, and grow up to break the law.

an unborn fetus is not part of society yet...therefore, society has no dominion over it. not until it is born.

but i digress...

As mentioned, not all cases are decided by DNA. Scott Peterson's case was circumstantial. I'm not saying he's innocent, but what if he is? DNA will never clear him. but dude....look at that case.
come on....that case is a TRIUMPH of our legal system.

I seem to remember the governor of Illinios pardoned a bunch of death row inmates last year. Didn't it have to do with the fact that most of them are black. why don't you look it up before you type it?
but being that as it may....what do you think was the real instigator in that release....justice or PR?
they found possible evidence of racism in that court system....
so whether they are guilty or not....let em go. unfair trial and all...
hope they don't kill again or anything....

i'll ask you the rhetorical question: would you want any of those men moving in to your neighborhood?...


So this is not some old news problem that is now solved by DNA. Why are the overwhelming majority of death row inmates minorities? This is one reason the death penalty doesn't work. see...this is dogmatic liberal thinking.
most of them are black...must be racism.
must be....they can't have all done it....

while skin color doesn't play a role in personality or behavior....culture and environment certainly do.
poor urban culture is more violent...due to the poverty (desparation, lack of role models, etc.)

the excess of black convicts is a cultural/class issue.....not a race issue.
you fix that by helping thier culture and environment....not by letting black people out of prison and assuming racism put them behind bars to begin with.

now if you want to get into why the majority of poor urban cultures are black...well, that's another discussion all together- and race does play a role in that.

I don't think there is any justification for the death penalty. While some people do commit reprehensible crimes, for the government to put them to death is to say their life is meaningless. absolutely. and thier lives ARE meaningless.
i base someone's life value on thier value to society. if you respect societies laws by and large, if you are productive, if you participate, if you respect....your life and your place in society is meaningful.

premedotated murderers, serial killers, rapists, pedophiles....these people are not productive memebers of society. they have NO value.

once more...i feel the same way about career criminals..even corporate thieves.
ken lay....kill him.
a career car thief....kill him.

these people are leeches to society. thier lives have no value.

you are born with sanctity of life....but you must work throughout your life to maintain that worth.

If the government can't hold all life valuable, no matter the qualities of the person, how can we? we shouldn't.

and before you ask...NO, i don't believe we should kill the elderly, the mentally retarded, the comatose, ect....

their inablility to participate in society is in no way thier fault...we should allow for such people as compassionate human beings.

[Qdrop]

Speaking of which, CSI is pissing me off. My dad was a forensic chemist for 30 years (up till this year), working for the government. Because of that goddamn show and all the emphasis on DNA evidence, people are going free now due to "lack of evidence." For some reason now, people think that if there aren't full fingerprints and spilled blood of both victims and the accused on the carpet, that means they didn't do it. They've had to hire people to talk to juries, to tell them that a lot of cases don't have 100% evidence, that they have to see the evidence they do have and base their decision on that. You'll see this shit all the time now; they'll have found partial fingerprints on bomb fragments and have gone to the man's shack out in the woods and found duct tape that's the same type on the bomb, along with the same kind of chemical residue that was used in the bomb... but since there weren't FULL fingerprints, or hair folicles at the crime scene, the juries don't want to point the finger too fast. All the evidence points to the man being guilty, but thanks to these new shows and ideas about forensic chemistry, people believe that there needs to be more.


So now guilty people are going free. You see the same damn thing with the Jackson case. Not "enough" evidence, (i.e. no goddamn fingerprints on the boys) so he goes free. On ALL charges. Even on giving alcohol to minors. They have evidence, but it's never enough nowadays.



thank the liberals.

and i'm fuckin serious about that.


(no, i'm not a conservative)

[Qdrop]

If someone killed someone I loved, I believe it would be a MUCH harsher punishment to see him rot away in prison and be sodomized daily, rather than put him out of his misery and have him die. When he dies, his life ends. The end. It doesn't bring justice or any comfort to the families; I'd much rather see that fucker in prison in 90 years, having thought about what he did EVERY DAY, as he looked out of the prison bars on the free world around him.

what good would that do?
what does punishment do for the grieving families?
does it bring back thier loved ones?

punishment on that level serves no purpose and THAT is what is truly disgusting.

we must think of the death penalty as a social service. a pragmatic solution.

[Qdrop]

And the death penalty doesn't have any affect on crime rates. Criminals don't commit crimes with the idea that they might get caught. Look at stats from before the US made the death penalty legal again and those since and there is virtually no change in death penalty type crimes. the death penalty is not a significat deterant. and should not thought of as such. it's a public service. it's human trash collection and disposal.

The only major changes in crime rates follow economic cycles. Better times equal less crime. I know this is a complex issue, but I bet it's safe to distill it down to poorer people are less poor in better economic times hence less likely to commit crimes. HA HA! exactly!
and you knew this earlier!
you pointed to racism as the reasons for larger black populations in prisons and death row...

it's the poverty! the environment! not the amount of pigment in someones skin.

well, i'm not gonna be ignorant and say racism does not exist in the legal system....but i refuse to blame all the racial crime statistics on skin color and bigotry.

[zorra_chiflada]

it's a public service. it's human trash collection and disposal.


that's what jail is for.

[Qdrop]

that's what jail is for.

jail makes criminals worse. if fosters the issues that brought them there to begin with.

life imprisonment serves no purpose other then to appease the sentiments of the ideological liberal mobs.
keeping murderers alive does not make our society better.

saying pedophiles deserve to live....does not make our world more beautiful.

[Documad]

qdrop, I am beginning to suspect that your doing all the little quotes of Marsdaddy is to appear to rebut what he said when you really didn't.

The governor of Illinois commuted the death sentences of everyone on death row (and let some off completely). He did this at the end of his career because his study of the various cases and the people he had studying the issue had caused him to conclude that the justice system that led to their convictions was fundamentally flawed. He didn't do it for PR reasons--in fact it would be career suicide.

The analysis re black people being more likely to be involved in crime is off the mark. It's a good example of how people are misled by statistics. The question isn't so much the race of the defendant as the race of the victim. You're far more likely to get the death penalty if you kill a white person than if you kill a black person. This is one of the arguments consistently put forward by advocates against the death penalty--regardless of the guilt of the defendant. That isn't just.

You are seriously in need of a prison tour. And not just in your state, but in a state that actually executes people. Then you'll know what you're talking about. And if your state gives cable TV to prisoners, complain to the appropriate person--the commissioner of corrections or governor. I've toured a wide variety of prisons and it's an eye opener.

There are so many other things but I don't have time, for instance the number of people actually proven innocent is just an indicator of a larger problem. I live in a state where I'm pretty confident that people get fair trials and good attorneys. But my friends have worked in other states where that's not the case and they have worked on death penalty appeals where the issue isn't the guilt of the defendant but whether the defendant had a fair trial. There is no DNA evidence so that's not an issue (cases are very rarely decided based upon science). But their stories are pretty frightening if you care about justice. PS we wouldn't have all these pesky stories about people getting off 10 years later because they were lucky enough that there was DNA in their case if people were executed faster.

[Qdrop]

qdrop, I am beginning to suspect that your doing all the little quotes of Marsdaddy is to appear to rebut what he said when you really didn't. that really doesn't make any sense.

The governor of Illinois commuted the death sentences of everyone on death row (and let some off completely). He did this at the end of his career because his study of the various cases and the people he had studying the issue had caused him to conclude that the justice system that led to their convictions was fundamentally flawed. He didn't do it for PR reasons--in fact it would be career suicide. well, niether i nor mars really researched that.
i was just reacting to his sentiment...which was apparently flawed.

so why did he commute the sentences? what were these "fundamental flaws"?

he didn't do it for PR reasons?
hmmmm.....

The analysis re black people being more likely to be involved in crime is off the mark. It's a good example of how people are misled by statistics. The question isn't so much the race of the defendant as the race of the victim. You're far more likely to get the death penalty if you kill a white person than if you kill a black person. This is one of the arguments consistently put forward by advocates against the death penalty--regardless of the guilt of the defendant. That isn't just. so more black people are in prisons because they killed white people? what is the connection you are making?

or are you making a separate point all together....purely that death sentances are given out to those that kill white people more then black people.

can you link me to these stats? i'd like to see them.....

so, really get down to the details of what you are telling me....
this apparrent bias in who gets the death penalty depending on the race that they kill....means that the perpatrators should NOT get the death penalty...or should get their sentances reduced? perhaps even set free?
does a possible prejudace in bringing up charges in trial somehow transmute to innocence? they did still murder someone, correct?

You are seriously in need of a prison tour. And not just in your state, but in a state that actually executes people. Then you'll know what you're talking about. And if your state gives cable TV to prisoners, complain to the appropriate person--the commissioner of corrections or governor. I've toured a wide variety of prisons and it's an eye opener.
well, i'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth....let me explain better.

over-all....prisons suck. i know this.
they are not paradises.
they are breeding grounds for criminals....not correctional facilities.
the entire prison system needs to over hauled into a true-correctional/rehabiliation facilty...complete with skills/education...
so inmates can truly come out with a second chance.

when i talk about "lifers" getting shelter, free food, and cable for the rest of thier lives on our dime....yes, that's really just hyperbole...i know.

my real point is just that i don't see the pragmatic value in keeping someone alive and relatively comfortable for the rest of thier lives...when they are no longer a value to society and will never be able to repay thier debt.

and ethical ideology don't fly with me. that don't "pay the bills" so to speak.

There are so many other things but I don't have time, for instance the number of people actually proven innocent is just an indicator of a larger problem. I live in a state where I'm pretty confident that people get fair trials and good attorneys. But my friends have worked in other states where that's not the case and they have worked on death penalty appeals where the issue isn't the guilt of the defendant but whether the defendant had a fair trial. There is no DNA evidence so that's not an issue (cases are very rarely decided based upon science). But their stories are pretty frightening if you care about justice. i want detailed stories, not anecdotes.
too many people base thier belief systems on rhettoric and anecdotes.

"too many innocent people go to prison...and are executed...everyone knows that..."

oh yeah...tell me about them....and more than just 5.....

ya get my point?

[QueenAdrock]

what good would that do?
what does punishment do for the grieving families?
does it bring back thier loved ones?

punishment on that level serves no purpose and THAT is what is truly disgusting.

we must think of the death penalty as a social service. a pragmatic solution.


What good would the death penalty do? What does it do for the grieving families? Does it bring back their loved ones?

See? I can use the exact same argument against the death penalty.

If you could read, I said that if someone that I loved was killed, that's what I'D like to see. Not only that, I'd like to see some sort of punishment set up where the prisoners have to go do daily chores, such as cleaning up litter on highways. I'd like to see his debt repaid to society. If he dies, oh well. His life is ended, and the families STILL won't feel any sort of comfort knowing that fact. Prisoners oftentimes DO have to go do community service, and that serves more purpose than just ending their lives. It's just a bonus that they have to think about what they did every damn day when they're sodomized.

[Qdrop]

What good would the death penalty do? What does it do for the grieving families? Does it bring back their loved ones?

See? I can use the exact same argument against the death penalty.
umm..no.

my point is that the death penalty should NOT be used as revenge or emotional entitlement....it should be used to permantly remove human trash from society.

THAT is what good it would do for SOCIETY.

Not only that, I'd like to see some sort of punishment set up where the prisoners have to go do daily chores, such as cleaning up litter on highways. yeah...umm...we already have that, sister. it's a pretty common practice.

I'd like to see his debt repaid to society. cleaning up trash makes up for his murdering? that repays his debt?

If he dies, oh well. His life is ended, and the families STILL won't feel any sort of comfort knowing that fact. and they never will. that's why "death penalty as revenge" is pointless. as is torture.

Prisoners oftentimes DO have to go do community service, and that serves more purpose than just ending their lives. not unless they actually learn usable skills or a trade (with some education) and not unless they are going to be released at some point back into society.
if they are never going to be released due to the severity of thier crime..no amount of trash pick up will balance that out.

It's just a bonus that they have to think about what they did every damn day when they're sodomized. how will that help anyone?

yeah...ass raping will really help a criminal straighten his life out....ass raping will help everything.

[QueenAdrock]

Ass raping is the revenge part. I do believe in revenge.

And yes, his helping society in picking up trash, making license plates, whatever else is a hell of a lot better in just ending his life. Ending his life does NOTHING to help society, other than keeping him off the streets (which life in prison would do anyways). It doesn't make up for the debt of murder, but it puts his life to good use.

[Qdrop]

Ass raping is the revenge part. I do believe in revenge. that's obvious.
and pointless.

And yes, his helping society in picking up trash, making license plates, whatever else is a hell of a lot better in just ending his life.no it's not.

Ending his life does NOTHING to help society, other than keeping him off the streets keeping someone away from society who is a danger or drain to society is a good thing.

(which life in prison would do anyways). at a constant cost to the tax payers. just so we can feel like we are being more moral by not killing them.

It doesn't make up for the debt of murder, nothing will.

but it puts his life to good use. but that takes away paying jobs from our economy...it robs the low income class of possible paying jobs.

[QueenAdrock]

keeping someone away from society who is a danger or drain to society is a good thing.

I agree. However, death penalty is more expensive than life in prison. A person is on death row for years on end, and has the taxpayers pay for litigation and all the red tape that is necessary to send someone to die. The person that spends his life in prison would be less of a drain, and no danger to society because he would spend the rest of his life there. The .40 cents a day it takes to feed the prisoners all-purpose slop is meager when you see how much it costs for trials, appeals, and everything else that goes along with the death penalty.



but that takes away paying jobs from our economy...it robs the low income class of possible paying jobs.

It's a drain on society to hire people to do shit that prisoners can do for free. And trust me, the money the low income people would make from the job of cleaning up the environment is not enough to support anything.

So please explain why putting his life to death is better than having him work for the rest of his life, for jobs that no one would take anyways.

[marsdaddy]

The point/counter point style quoting reminds me of Jane Curtain and Dan Akroyd -- Jane, you ignorant slut!

You're right Qdrop, I didn't take the time to research the exact specifics of the governor of Illinois commuting all death row inmates. I did now -- I have more time -- and I remembered the gist pretty accurately. It was actually from Jan 2003 (http://www.ccadp.org/news-ryan2003.htm) and 156 inmates were given back their right to life -- in the truest sense of the word. The sentences of all but 3 of them were commuted to life without parole -- the 3 were given life sentences with the possibility of parole -- none were released.

Wow. You called me arrogant -- which I freely admit -- but you have a system of valuing people and if you don't deem them valuable, they should be put to death?! So kill career criminals -- shoplifters, welfare cheats, embezzlers -- you're like Henry VIII: off with their heads!

One problem I mentioned is the devaluing of life. I'd argue that the death penalty actually contributes to increased violent crimes, as people figure, "hell, I'll get killed for this, anyway...might as well go out in a blaze of glory."

Another problem is who gets to be judge and jury? You don't want to be a judge, right?! Yes, poor people tend to commit crimes -- they have fewer options -- and juries tend to have a lot of preconcieved notions about poor people. Documad points out that those on death row typically get there because they killed a white person -- where a similar crime committed against a non-white doesn't result in a death sentence. How can society put people to death knowing that the deck is stack against certain people who commit certain crimes?

Something both Qdrop and gmsisko talk about is the cost of imprisoning people versus killing them. That would seem to be at the heart of speeding up the killing of death row inmates. Right now, it cost more to put someone to death than to imprison them for life. Part of that cost is the appeal process. By limiting appeals, hell, we could save some cheese.

[Qdrop]

I agree. However, death penalty is more expensive than life in prison. A person is on death row for years on end, and has the taxpayers pay for litigation and all the red tape that is necessary to send someone to die. The person that spends his life in prison would be less of a drain, and no danger to society because he would spend the rest of his life there. The .40 cents a day it takes to feed the prisoners all-purpose slop is meager when you see how much it costs for trials, appeals, and everything else that goes along with the death penalty. the legal system needs reform.
i don't argue that at all.
the endless litigation and appeals are a travesty of our system.



It's a drain on society to hire people to do shit that prisoners can do for free. And trust me, the money the low income people would make from the job of cleaning up the environment is not enough to support anything. sorry, i don't trust you. those jobs would be taken.

So please explain why putting his life to death is better than having him work for the rest of his life, for jobs that no one would take anyways. where do you get this notion that no one would take this jobs? immigrants trying to start a new life in a new country would.

who do you think picks that fruit that you eat?

[Qdrop]

You're right Qdrop, I didn't take the time to research the exact specifics of the governor of Illinois commuting all death row inmates. I did now -- I have more time -- and I remembered the gist pretty accurately. It was actually from Jan 2003 (http://www.ccadp.org/news-ryan2003.htm) and 156 inmates were given back their right to life -- in the truest sense of the word. The sentences of all but 3 of them were commuted to life without parole -- the 3 were given life sentences with the possibility of parole -- none were released. what were the fundamental flaws in in thier trials?

"A commission set up in Illinois by Governor Ryan found that the death sentences were given disproportionately to the poor, people from ethnic minorities and in cases in which informers' evidence was used."

exactly...percieved racism.

"On Friday, Governor Ryan pardoned four death row inmates convicted of murder, all of whom said that confessions were beaten out of them by police in Chicago."

and you would expect them to say anything else?!

everyone is "not-guilty" on death row. just ask them.

"Democrat Rod Blagojevich, who takes over as Illinois governor on Monday, said Mr Ryan has been wrong to commute all death sentences.
"There is no one-size-fits-all approach," he said. "We're talking about people who committed murder."

exactly.

"He had halted executions three years ago, after courts found that 13 death row inmates had been wrongly convicted, since Illinois resumed capital punishment in 1977"

so fix the fucking system.
don't abandon it.


Wow. You called me arrogant -- which I freely admit -- but you have a system of valuing people and if you don't deem them valuable, they should be put to death?! So kill career criminals -- shoplifters, welfare cheats, embezzlers -- you're like Henry VIII: off with their heads! god damn right.

One problem I mentioned is the devaluing of life. I'd argue that the death penalty actually contributes to increased violent crimes, as people figure, "hell, I'll get killed for this, anyway...might as well go out in a blaze of glory." Mars, you ignorant slut.

Another problem is who gets to be judge and jury? You don't want to be a judge, right?! Yes, poor people tend to commit crimes -- they have fewer options -- and juries tend to have a lot of preconcieved notions about poor people. Documad points out that those on death row typically get there because they killed a white person -- where a similar crime committed against a non-white doesn't result in a death sentence. How can society put people to death knowing that the deck is stack against certain people who commit certain crimes? i'd like to see those figures first of all.
the "word of Documad" isn't good enough for me, sorry.

Something both Qdrop and gmsisko talk about is the cost of imprisoning people versus killing them. That would seem to be at the heart of speeding up the killing of death row inmates. Right now, it cost more to put someone to death than to imprison them for life. Part of that cost is the appeal process. By limiting appeals, hell, we could save some cheese. yep. among other things.

[QueenAdrock]

sorry, i don't trust you. those jobs would be taken.

where do you get this notion that no one would take this jobs? immigrants trying to start a new life in a new country would.

who do you think picks that fruit that you eat?


Yeah, they'd take those because fruit-picking pays higher than Wal-mart, right? Wait, it doesn't. There are plenty of jobs that are higher than picking up trash and picking fruit, that have vacancies. That is why the jobs that the prisoners would take would have vacancies. There are minimum-wage jobs that the immigrants could take, working at fast food places, which WOULD pay better than picking up trash on the highway.

So I take it you're against volunteer positions, too? I guess if people didn't volunteer to do this work, they'd be forced to pay for it, right? No. They'd just have no one to do it. There's plenty of volunteer jobs that the prisoners could take as well, which wouldn't take the 50 cents-an-hour away from the immigrants who are tripping over themselves applying for them.

[Qdrop]

Yeah, they'd take those because fruit-picking pays higher than Wal-mart, right? Wait, it doesn't. There are plenty of jobs that are higher than picking up trash and picking fruit, that have vacancies. That is why the jobs that the prisoners would take would have vacancies. There are minimum-wage jobs that the immigrants could take, working at fast food places, which WOULD pay better than picking up trash on the highway.

So I take it you're against volunteer positions, too? I guess if people didn't volunteer to do this work, they'd be forced to pay for it, right? No. They'd just have no one to do it. There's plenty of volunteer jobs that the prisoners could take as well, which wouldn't take the 50 cents-an-hour away from the immigrants who are tripping over themselves applying for them.

you need to take a look at the underside of our economy...particularly California...
you have no idea what you're talking about.

[QueenAdrock]

Sure, let's say that they do take away these fabulous jobs from immigrants. I guess the immigrants could afford to live in California with the buck-fifty they make per day with their fruit-picking jobs? No. These immigrants would go on welfare, and yes, drain society AGAIN.

And by the way, I just looked it up: Prison workers primarily take on volunteer work, anyways. (http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=15972)

Prison work programs help local communities, save states millions, and give inmates who are mostly nonviolent offenders something worthwhile to do.

They don't take jobs away from anyone. Thus another reason why life in prison>death penalty.

[zorra_chiflada]

jail makes criminals worse. if fosters the issues that brought them there to begin with.

life imprisonment serves no purpose other then to appease the sentiments of the ideological liberal mobs.
keeping murderers alive does not make our society better.

saying pedophiles deserve to live....does not make our world more beautiful.

it's not about who deserves to live, or who deserves to die.
the death penalty is unnecessary.
humans are not animals, we are much more complex than that. applying these simplistic principles such as "kill the killers" is a bad reflection of humankind.
why whinge about how you have to pay tax to keep criminals in jail? are you in poverty because you pay taxes? are you starving because all of your money goes to taxes? didn't think so.

[zorra_chiflada]

no it's not.

at a constant cost to the tax payers. just so we can feel like we are being more moral by not killing them.



i'm puzzled why you think jail is an easy way out. :confused: do you think that criminals like going to jail. don't you realise that it does remove the unsavoury members of society?

and quit whining about the tax payers already. taxes go to more useless things (the iraq war) taxes are there for a reason, and as i said before, i'm pretty sure that you're not living in poverty due to the taxes you pay. it's only money for fuck's sake.

[marsdaddy]

and quit whining about the tax payers already. taxes go to more useless things (the iraq war) taxes are there for a reason, and as i said before, i'm pretty sure that you're not living in poverty due to the taxes you pay. it's only money for fuck's sake.It's such an American thing, to complain about taxes. Hell, now that I think about it, some Americans want to complain about taxes, consume, pollute, and kill off those who don't help with any of those. :\

[zorra_chiflada]

It's such an American thing, to complain about taxes. Hell, now that I think about it, some Americans want to complain about taxes, consume, pollute, and kill off those who don't help with any of those. :\

oh, it's very much the same in australia (australia is like a mini-america now)
but if you asked anyone in, western or northern europe, they would say they would rather pay more taxes to live in a better place.

[Documad]

I would like to start by saying that the US justice system is the best system in the world and that anything I say here is just stuff I pulled out of my ass and had nothing to do with my job or profession.

Re the Illinois Governor. He had a long history of public service. He did a difficult job and didn't like what he saw. At the end of his career he decided to use the power he had to do what he thought was right. He did it after having his staff people do a lot of research. When I saw him interviewed, he said that he always got pleas for commutation in death penalty cases because the governor has the last word. While he was in office, he took these seriously and looked into them with the assistance of his staff. He found major problems in some cases and as time went on he had disliked what he saw so much that he ordered a study of all the cases, which led him to commute all the sentences. He can be criticized for using his power too broadly. But I think the PR remark is ridiculous. The death penalty is still popular. I don't think a politician would dare commute all the sentences if he intended to continue with his career. And my read of him was that he was an admirable man making a tough decision because his conscience told him to.

I doubt that Jeb Bush looks very hard at the cases that come before him. I doubt that W and Clinton ever did when they were governor either. It's too much of a hot potato and apparently the public's call for blood is too strong.


I am opposed to the death penalty for every reason going. It doesn't matter to me whether any of the reasons have statistical support. I think it's always wrong for the state to kill a human. I worked on a lot of cases involving horrific crimes. No matter what the facts and how much I hated the criminal and the crime, I could always see a human being sitting across the table from me. I could never have any part in killing that human being. Even though I sometimes wonder whether that would be better than sending a 17 year old to prison for the rest of his life.

I live in a state that doesn't have the death penalty and so I haven't had think too hard about it. I don't want to give any legal analysis because it wouldn't be appropriate. I'm just giving my personal opinion on this one. I have attended a lot of classes and I used to work for a wonderful government servant who spent a lot of time educating people in my state as to why we should not have a death penalty. I wrote my term paper on the death penalty but it's been a long time since then and my brain is fuzzy. I read all the cases but I don't have them at my fingertips anymore and even if I did I wouldn't cite them to non attorneys in other states on the internet.

What I remember is that there have been lots of studies in various states and that the studies tended to show that the race of the defendant played a factor. I have a statistics background, so I am always suspect of the kind of summaries you get and the things they don't tell you about the modelling. I remember that there was some dispute on the race of the defendant as a factor and I went away thinking it made sense but I couldn't be sure. But what everyone agreed upon (at least as of a few years ago) was that the race of the victim really seemed to play a factor. There was a GAO report in 1990 and various state reports that showed something like you were 4 times more likely to get the death penalty if you killed a white person. I've seen these studies cited in briefs and court opinions without rebuttal but I wouldn't rely upon them and don't need to. I only remember seeing one study that tried to rebut the race of the victim studies and it was full of flawed comparisons. I also remember that the American Bar Association was so troubled by what it saw that it asked for a moratorium. If you google death penalty race victim you'll get loads of websites on both sides that have a political agenda but have links to the studies. It's interesting and I strongly suspect that it's true, but my opposition isn't based on that.

Frankly, I can't see how you would make such a study. Again, I'm pulling this out of my ass and you can completely ignore. Also, I'm limited in what I can say here. Again, I think that the US justice system is the best in the world despite its flaws and that the system in my state is awesome. Good people here are always trying to study and improve the sytem. We can't make a system that's foolproof because there are way too many variables. That's my disclaimer.

Here's a sketchy timeline of the criminal justice system:
1 - Murder is committed.
2 - Police investigation -- a lot of people think that the level of investigation has a lot to do with who the victim is and the surrounding circumstances. Just from reading the paper I think you will notice that there is a lot more pressure to find the killer of a white cheerleader than a black single male.
3 - Suspect identified
Hopefully more investigation
4 - Suspect arrested
Hopefully more investigation
5 - Suspect charged
6 - In death penalty states, someone will decide whether the state will seek the death penalty. They're supposed to weigh some factors. In a criminal case, the most important decision and where the prosecutor wields the most power is over whether to charge and what to charge. I assume that power is even greater in a death penalty state. I know that in the federal system that decision is made way up the chain and I think by the AG personally. I'm talking way beyond my expertise. I think it would be difficult to show what was in the prosecutor's head or heart when she decides to seek the death penalty. There would be the defendant's criminal record plus, and the circumstances of the killing. (I've heard from some who make the decision that they recommended against seeking the death penalty because they thought the community the jury comes from was anti death penalty and it might make the guilty verdict more difficult to obtain.) I imagine there is lots of pressure in a high publicity case and if the cases with white stranger victims get more publicity I would think it would be difficult to filter that out.
7 - At some point, the defendant got an attorney. His attorney will have a high case load and will have few resources. His attorney will have limited ability to hire experts, etc. to rebut whatever evidence the state crime lab provided. (He's not OJ) The defendant might get one of the best attorneys going or one of the worst.
8 - jury chosen - lots of people argue that the prosecutor will try to exclude all the black jurors from the jury. It's illegal but the argument is that the prosecutor might come up with a race neutral public reason to exclude the black jurors. That's assuming there are any black jurors in the pool. There has been controversy about whether and why a smaller percentage of the black population reports for jury service.
9 - trial, penalty phase, etc.

There are a lot of appeals. I think that's appropriate when the state is going to kill someone. But the problem is that it's almost always too late by that stage. Many wonderful attorneys from all over the US work on these subsequent appeals, but the legal standards are such that it's very very difficult to overturn a jury verdict. And that's as it should be.

The point of this is that I don't know how you can just look at any one factor and I can't imagine how you have a meaningful statistical model. Still, based upon my understanding of human beings, the press, and my experience, it's probable that black victims don't get the same level of justice as white ones.

The death penalty is sought in a freakishly low percentage of murder cases. For that reason I'd argue that it fails the "unusual" part of the cruel and unusual test, but then you'ld just say kill more people. :)

Finally, I've thought a lot about crime and criminals for a long long time. The argument that bothers me the most is "what would you do if it was your loved one that was killed?" If that's a valid question then isn't it all appropriate to ask "what would you want if it was your son who was being executed?" There's a damn good reason why neither victim's nor defendant's families make those calls.

[zorra_chiflada]

Just like a liberal, misrepresent the words of others.

All I said was take Signapore for example. Their crime rate is much lower.

(because the crinimal gets more than a slap on the wrist)

would you live there?

[Documad]

Sisko: You're a cop, right? Do you work some cases harder than others? Is there pressure for you to do so?

How much discretion do you have to arrest someone vs. let him/her go? I'm not talking murder. I don't know what state you're in, but if someone is slightly over the legal limit for alcohol, do you have a choice to let him/her go? Because cop discretion is probably the only thing bigger than prosecutorial discretion.

[Documad]

I think they should give cops spelling tests
As a group, cops have the most trouble with passive voice. It's standard cop-speak.

"Smith was observed buying drugs." WHO OBSERVED IT?

"the breath test was administered." WHO ADMINISTERED IT?

"the victim was struck" WHO OR WHAT STRUCK THE VICTIM? if you know.

Most of the time it was the cop writing the report who saw the drug buying and administered the test, but if the report doesn't say that how can the reader be sure.

[Laver1969]

You're right Qdrop, I didn't take the time to research the exact specifics of the governor of Illinois commuting all death row inmates. I did now -- I have more time -- and I remembered the gist pretty accurately. It was actually from Jan 2003 (http://www.ccadp.org/news-ryan2003.htm) and 156 inmates were given back their right to life -- in the truest sense of the word. The sentences of all but 3 of them were commuted to life without parole -- the 3 were given life sentences with the possibility of parole -- none were released.


I admit I haven't read this whole thread but saw some references to Gov. Ryan and Illinois and thought I would chime in on this.

First, I didn't see anyone mention the fact that he commuted all of the death penalties on his last day in office. Where's the accountability is making decisions without have to really answer for them.

Also Gov. Ryan has been under investigation for some license for bribe stuff. A lot of folks that worked for him have been indicted and have gone down...I think it's a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan for him.

I have zero respect for that guy.

Edit: I guess I should say that I'm pretty much against the death penalty.

[Medellia]

There is eturnity after death.
And it helps their chances even more if they can correctly spell "eternity".

[Documad]

Also Gov. Ryan has been under investigation for some license for bribe stuff. A lot of folks that worked for him have been indicted and have gone down...I think it's a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan for him.

I have zero respect for that guy.
I hate when people who actually live in the state chime in with their perspective and greater knowledge of facts. :D

It's certainly troubling that there is no oversight. That's how the system's set up though. We had a governor make a similar move re pardons but he gave one to a friend of mine so I wasn't as upset. :)

The cases they focused on in the show I saw were pretty awful--probably the most obvious miscarriages of justice.

[Qdrop]

Sure, let's say that they do take away these fabulous jobs from immigrants. I guess the immigrants could afford to live in California with the buck-fifty they make per day with their fruit-picking jobs? No. These immigrants would go on welfare, and yes, drain society AGAIN. i am done talking about that until you do some research on it.
i'm not your fuckin teacher....


Prison work programs help local communities, save states millions, and give inmates who are mostly nonviolent offenders something worthwhile to do.

They don't take jobs away from anyone. Thus another reason why life in prison>death penalty. i am FOR temporary prisoners (non-lifers) working. Hell, i'm for them getting paid for it too.
they can get real job training- learn skills. get an education. learn personal pride, social responsibility...and have some money saved up.
so when a prisoner gets out ...they have skills, some education, some money, personal pride, hopefully...a better outlook on life. a second chance.

anything is better then just throwing them in a pen for a few years while they hang around other criminals, learn better crime techniques, get angrier and angrier....

shit, look at all the repeat offenders in the system. the system sucks!!

but lifers or death row inmates are another story.
there is no reason to give them better skills or an education. it goes to waste.
any work you think you can get out of them should be reserved to other members of society who can benefit more from it...through training, money (no matter how much)...
fuck ANYTHING is better than just wasting it on someone who can never benefit from it. and shouldn't even be kept alive anyway.

look...i know what you're saying. and i do share some sentiment with you.
you're basically saying "these guys are scum...let's make them do jobs that no one else will do...get some use out of em".

as far as i'm concerned...they aren't even human in my eyes anymore. i would have no problem if the gov't wanted to use them for medical/science expiriments....go for it. pump them full of drugs and diseases so we can learn more....

i think of career criminals as parasites.
what do you do to parasites?

[Qdrop]

it's not about who deserves to live, or who deserves to die.
the death penalty is unnecessary. i disagree entirely.

humans are not animals,
umm...yes..yes we are, dear.

we are much more complex than that. applying these simplistic principles such as "kill the killers" is a bad reflection of humankind. no, it bodes well with natural law.
it's a shame when humans let our personal contructs like "moral" "good" "bad" "ethical"..get in the way of natural law.
that's what confuses things....that's what creates so many of our society's issues...

why whinge about how you have to pay tax to keep criminals in jail? are you in poverty because you pay taxes? are you starving because all of your money goes to taxes? didn't think so. principle.

[Qdrop]

Also Gov. Ryan has been under investigation for some license for bribe stuff. A lot of folks that worked for him have been indicted and have gone down...I think it's a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan for him.



interesting....

still think PR had nothing to do with it, people?

[Documad]

interesting....

still think PR had nothing to do with it, people?
Um, Yeah! More sure than ever.

[zorra_chiflada]

If you take a life, your life should be taken. (If for nothing else to make sure you don't do it again)

ok, so what about the executioners? they took a life too. should their life be taken as well? this doesn't make sense to me.

[zorra_chiflada]

no, it bodes well with natural law.
it's a shame when humans let our personal contructs like "moral" "good" "bad" "ethical"..get in the way of natural law.


as developed beings, natural law doesn't mean shit. it really sounds like you have nothing but contempt for humankind and all its achievements.


principle

principle? well, if you don't think you should pay taxes, even though the taxes you pay doesn't affect your quality of life, you don't have very good principles.

[Medellia]

jail makes criminals worse. if fosters the issues that brought them there to begin with.
If they are spending the rest of their lives in prison, why does it matter? They might be worse, but they're not getting out and mingling with us.
my point is that the death penalty should NOT be used as revenge or emotional entitlement.
You might see it that way, but MOST people who are for the death penalty see it as revenge. Not all, but most.

[zorra_chiflada]

As far as aortion not being a dude's business.......... does't it take a dude to get a dude ette pregnate? (maybe I'm wrong)

someone else put it quite well in another thread...
But men don't have to carry it for nine months and then give birth to it. Having an opinion on the subject is one thing, but telling those of us who do have to do all the work in the gestation/birthing process what we should do is totally different.

[Medellia]

Hee, thanks Zorra! :D

[Documad]

If you do the crime you should do the time. (Yes sometimes I have to make those decisions)
You sure don't talk like a cop.

My point was that if you're a cop you have a tremendous amount of discretion. Your answer seems to be that you don't or that you don't use it. Maybe I misunderstood. These are two scenarios cops see a lot.

Scenario No. 1: It is 2:45 a.m. and you have 15 minutes left in your shift. You are following a car and see its right wheels cross the fog line once--the whole wheel but no more. You follow the car for another 2 minutes and it never leaves its lane again. Do you pull the car over?

Scenario No. 2: You come across a vehicle stopped in a residential neighborhood at 1:00 a.m. There is a guy behind the wheel. You walk up and smell alcohol on his breath. You ask for his ID and see that he lives 1/2 block away. You PBT him and get a .08. He says his last drink was 45 minutes ago at a bar. You're in an .08 state. Do you arrest him?

[boys_beastie]

Death penalty is disgusting and unneeded.

i agree- capitol punishment is wrong. if the court sentences somebody to death, are they any better than the person sentenced?-whichever way you look at it theyre killing some1. america force god and christianity onto every american citizen anyway they can. now correct me if im wrong, but is killing not a sin? and is sinning not defying god? the system contradicts itself. and lastly, if some one who was sentenced to death in america was sentenced in britain or an america without CP, they would probably receive several life sentences, now, would you rather die or serve 75 or so years in prison? surely it'd be more of a punishment to let them live the rest of their lives in jail.