Abortions

[Los Para Noias]

I don't usually post in this part of the board, and I'm sure this is a topic that has been brought up many times, and I am not looking for a stupid argument or anything, just a discussion.

I'm a pro-life person, without any base in religion. Nobody knows when life starts really, you can say one way but there will be plenty who disagree, so why not give the benefit of the doubt to the fetus and not have legalized abortions (excluding rape, incest and danger to the mother's life). What's happened to human responsibility? You have sex, with the wonderful contraceptive devices out there, and you take a risk, especially if you don't use them. You make your choice when you take on the responsibility of sex, and with all these ways to prevent pregnancy there is really no excuse. Even if you don't keep the child, then they can at least be adopted (and I believe that adoption agencies should be improved as well). I mean, it's fine to believe that life doesn't start at conception, but if you're wrong then millions would die, and if you're right and abortions are illegal you just have people acting more with responsibility.

Mostly, I think the abortion question comes down to skepticism, and human responsibility, and with those in mind I believe that they should be illegal in most cases.

[QueenAdrock]

I think I'm more pro-abortions than I am pro-choice. Babies serve no purpose in today's modern world. (!)

[bb_bboy]

I think the issue that a lot of people take against your position - assuming that your position is that abortion is equal to murder - is that you are picking and choosing when it is justifiable to commit, according to that position, the act of murdering an unborn child. If people agree that it is murderous, then they (themselves) have trouble saying, "it is murder, but it is okay in the circumstances of rape, incest, etc." Similarly, those who think that it is not murderous have no excuse but to then allow it be widespread. That is the difficulty that most people face with that part of the ethical issue. It beceoms fundamentally very black and white if you wish to view it that way.

Concerning the statement:
you just have people acting more with responsibility

You are assuming here that people will care about the illegality of abortions and stop having sex without contraception. I think that that notion has proven to be inconceivable to a large population of people. The fact that people cannot act responsibly is the reason behind the whole abortion debate - i.e., otherwise we wouldn't have abortions available.

[catatonic]

I don't think it's murder, but I'm pro-life.

[cosmo105]

i think it's a far greater tragedy to bring an unwanted child into an overpopulated world.

[franscar]

i think it's a far greater tragedy to bring an unwanted child into an overpopulated world.

Pretty much my thinking when my ex announced she was pregnant. The fact that she was my ex, we weren't going to get back together, we had used contraception and we were both teenagers at the time made it a far easier decision though.

[FearandLoathing]

Um, sure it's alive. Who gives a fuck? People should have complete control of their bodies. In pregnancy, the mother's rights trump the embryo's; her right to bodily integrity negates the embryo's hold on life. To paraphrase Bill Hicks, "I think if you pro-lifers are so pro-life, don't block med. clinics. Block cemeteries. Let's see how committed you are to this premise...'But she was 86 years old, she was hit by a bus!' 'There's options.'"

No contraception is fully effective. Choosing to have an abortion is an act of responsibility; the person is being responsible for her actions by doing something about it- whether it be to follow through with the pregnancy or terminate it.

Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.

[ms.peachy]

No contraception is fully effective. Choosing to have an abortion is an act of responsibility; the person is being responsible for her actions by doing something about it- whether it be to follow through with the pregnancy or terminate it.

Succinct and well-put.

I've never been able to understand why this is anyone's business but a woman and her doctor's.

[Tone Capone]

Killing babies is always wrong.

[zorra_chiflada]

it infuriates me that it is usually men that make the decisions as to what women do with their bodies.
any man with any morality would realise that they should back the fuck off - unless they magically grow a uterus.

[GreenEarthAl]

It would seem reasonable to me that men should be entitled to an opinion on this matter. The babies that the women cary are of both genders. Men often find themselves with a feduciary responsability for their offspring. Most importantly though, if one believes abortion is murder then their obligation to impede it would naturally transcend gender. Given that murder is a legal term and abortion is not illegal I don't consider it murder, but I still consider it wrong. I personally do not favor making it illegal, but I do favor making it virtually non-existent --to the degree possible-- by making as many pregnancies as possible, planned pregnancies and by creating as supportive communities as it is possible to create. Given the current state of the world I can understand women not wanting to bring children into it and so it is to us now to change the state of the world.

[zorra_chiflada]

It would seem reasonable to me that men should be entitled to an opinion on this matter. The babies that the women cary are of both genders. Men often find themselves with a feduciary responsability for their offspring. Most importantly though, if one believes abortion is murder then their obligation to impede it would naturally transcend gender.

i'm not saying men are not entitled to an opinion at all.
i was pointing out how in society the people with the most power are men, and they are the main decision-makers when it comes to law. women don't get to make decisions about things that primarily affect them.

[GreenEarthAl]

i'm not saying men are not entitled to an opinion at all.
i was pointing out how in society the people with the most power are men, and they are the main decision-makers when it comes to law. women don't get to make decisions about things that primarily affect them.

Then the real problem is that men are in power. And not necessarily what they have opinions on. Given that women are the majority of the world's population I'm all for them holding a majority in the decision making apparatuses.

"I want all my daughters to be like Maxine Wauters" -KRSONE

[Medellia]

It would seem reasonable to me that men should be entitled to an opinion on this matter. The babies that the women cary are of both genders. Men often find themselves with a feduciary responsability for their offspring. Most importantly though, if one believes abortion is murder then their obligation to impede it would naturally transcend gender. Given that murder is a legal term and abortion is not illegal I don't consider it murder, but I still consider it wrong. I personally do not favor making it illegal, but I do favor making it virtually non-existent --to the degree possible-- by making as many pregnancies as possible, planned pregnancies and by creating as supportive communities as it is possible to create. Given the current state of the world I can understand women not wanting to bring children into it and so it is to us now to change the state of the world.
But men don't have to carry it for nine months and then give birth to it. Having an opinion on the subject is one thing, but telling those of us who do have to do all the work in the gestation/birthing process what we should do is totally different.

That said, I agree with evrything else in your post.

[QueenAdrock]

The baby has its own DNA from conception. The Baby feels extreme pain when it is aborted. I don't understand the twisted way of thinking some liberals have.

They think it is wrong to kill a murderer, but it's not wrong to murder the innocent baby. (And you say you are progressive)

Really? It feels extreme pain? How do you know? Do you hear it scream? Does it tell you it's in pain? I bet it doesn't. You're just making false predictions.


There's a debate still on-going of whether people believe the fetuses are living, whether or not they feel pain. Some believe they are not yet babies. There is NO debate of whether or not people sent to die from the death penalty are living members of society. And progressives believe that people who definitely can feel, without argument, should not be executed in these horrible ways.

Have you ever shot at someone, sisko? With you being a cop, and all? If you've ever had to shoot someone, that makes you a murderer. You would have taken someone's life. Even if it was for your own "protection" i.e. you thought they took a gun from the glovebox and acted first. You could very easily kill an innocent person in that respect, and that would make you a murderer. How can you justify killing some people, in some situations, and not others?

It doesn't matter if the person is guilty or innocent, true Christians should believe that ALL life is sacred, and it is not up to anyone but God to let anyone die. However, Christians do NOT believe all life is sacred. If they believe the person is a bad person, it's okay if they die. It's okay if they're killed. Which is why I believe Christians are hypocritical assholes (minus the late Pope) and yet again, a great reason why I'd never be one.

[Documad]

I'm for them.

[FearandLoathing]

Killing babies is always wrong.

Just babies, then?

The baby has its own DNA from conception. The Baby feels extreme pain when it is aborted. I don't understand the twisted way of thinking some liberals have.

Not according to Miriam Clare: "Brain movements detected early in pregnancy, at about four weeks, do not signify an actively functioning brain. Early ultrasound images show movements but these are reflex actions. The foetal heartbeat may also be heard earlier, but synaptic connections, which allow information to pass from neuron to neuron, do not begin to form until around the 28th week of pregnancy.

"Until then, there is no sensory perception and the foetus cannot feel pain. Without a human brain to define us as human beings, our behaviour is not recognisable as human." (Quoted by Pamela Bone, in "The Age", 23/9/96).

[Los Para Noias]

If people agree that it is murderous, then they (themselves) have trouble saying, "it is murder, but it is okay in the circumstances of rape, incest, etc." ... You are assuming here that people will care about the illegality of abortions and stop having sex without contraception. I think that that notion has proven to be inconceivable to a large population of people. The fact that people cannot act responsibly is the reason behind the whole abortion debate - i.e., otherwise we wouldn't have abortions available.

I was mostly saying that I really don't have an opinion in those specific situations (rape, incest, etc) and would prefer to not talk about that aspect of it, and that I wasn't questioning abortions in that area. I think that outlawing abortions will make a lot more people less likely to get them, and less likely to have unprotected sex, but that goes with improving edjucation, health procedures, places for women with unwanted pregnancies/teen pregnancies, adoption agencies etc.

i think it's a far greater tragedy to bring an unwanted child into an overpopulated world.

A tragedy that is usually simple to prevent (although of course birth control isn't all effective, it does help).

Um, sure it's alive. Who gives a fuck? People should have complete control of their bodies. In pregnancy, the mother's rights trump the embryo's; her right to bodily integrity negates the embryo's hold on life.... No contraception is fully effective. Choosing to have an abortion is an act of responsibility; the person is being responsible for her actions by doing something about it- whether it be to follow through with the pregnancy or terminate it.

So you believe that since this living being doesn't have a say, a mother has a right to kill it? Is a mother allowed to kill her child after its born? If you believe it's alive in the womb, why should it be any different once it's born? And doesn't the responsibility come when you have sex? It's a risk you take whenever you have sex that you'll get pregnant, contraceptives help the risk but don't prevent it, so you know you're still taking that risk, and why should a potential life have to pay for that?

It would seem reasonable to me that men should be entitled to an opinion on this matter. The babies that the women cary are of both genders. Men often find themselves with a feduciary responsability for their offspring. Most importantly though, if one believes abortion is murder then their obligation to impede it would naturally transcend gender. Given that murder is a legal term and abortion is not illegal I don't consider it murder, but I still consider it wrong. I personally do not favor making it illegal, but I do favor making it virtually non-existent --to the degree possible-- by making as many pregnancies as possible, planned pregnancies and by creating as supportive communities as it is possible to create. Given the current state of the world I can understand women not wanting to bring children into it and so it is to us now to change the state of the world.

Well put, and about men telling women what to do, we all have our opinions on this, why should our gender prevent us from expressing them?

[QueenAdrock]

HI GMSISKO! NICE USER NAME!

You're silly.

[cosmo105]

My wife works with a 18 year old girl. The 18 year old girl got pregnate.
The father of the child split.
My wife also works with another lady who happens to be Catholic.
The Catholic lady knows of this group who sets up adoptions.

This group found parents for the baby, and paid all of the girls bills.
(hospitle, exc.)

There is always another choice.
YEAH, THIS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN FOR TEENAGE GIRLS THAT GET PREGNATE!1

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

How do you make a dead baby float??





one part dead baby one part milk.




Oh shit. I thought this was the absurd joke thread. Wow, I really fucked this one up. Oh boy. :(

[cosmo105]

haha oh god man not the dead baby jokes, those are my weakness :o

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

Well, get out now cuz here comes the shit storm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



jk, that's actually the only one i know/remember at the moment.

[ms.peachy]

My wife works with a 18 year old girl. The 18 year old girl got pregnate.
The father of the child split.
My wife also works with another lady who happens to be Catholic.
The Catholic lady knows of this group who sets up adoptions.

This group found parents for the baby, and paid all of the girls bills.
(hospitle, exc.)

There is always another choice.
Was it a nice white baby, that wasn't born addicted or physically disabled or anything less than perfect like that? Cuz there's always a great market for those.

The little brown ones, or the ones with health problems, erm... maybe not so much.

[Documad]

I think it's really wonderful when a white girl having a white baby decides to carry the child and put it up for adoption. And believe me, Catholic Charities will be waiting with open arms and provide support for the girl and will find a good home for the baby.

I worked in juvenile court for about a year. I saw that happen exactly once. It was a real heartbreaker and a very mature girl, with a loving family and a supportive mature boyfriend.

I saw about a thousand girls who wanted to keep the baby because they had no love in their lives and this was akin to having a new puppy, or sometimes they wanted the cash money every month from the government so they could get their own apartment. There was a system set up for them to get info on food stamps, etc. The judges and public defenders had seen generations of these kids come and go and the court files showed a horrific pattern--where a kid was put into care, then became a juvenile delinquent, then became a teenage mom, then had her kids taken from her, and on and on and on.

I also saw the girls who needed court permission to get an abortion. I've said it before, but other than the one girl who gave up her baby, the girls getting abortions seemed to be the most mature. There were a couple of cases that really bothered me (should have come in earlier/had one before) but most of the time I felt okay about it.

I hate the language people put on this issue. WTF, you can call me pro-death.

[jennyb]

I would never ever even consider an abortion myself. Nor would I condone it with a friend or loved one. But that's my personal choice and who am I to force it upon others?

[franscar]

If you have an abortion, your odds of getting breast cancer go up.

I know I'm going to regret this, in the wake of the multitude of pro-life funded "studies" you are going to throw at me, but prove it.

[FearandLoathing]

I think that outlawing abortions will make a lot more people less likely to get them, and less likely to have unprotected sex, but that goes with improving edjucation, health procedures, places for women with unwanted pregnancies/teen pregnancies, adoption agencies etc.

Nope. It just results in a rise in the mortality and morbidity rates as women obtain illegal, unsafe abortions. I refer you to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5886985/ .

So you believe that since this living being doesn't have a say, a mother has a right to kill it? Is a mother allowed to kill her child after its born? If you believe it's alive in the womb, why should it be any different once it's born? And doesn't the responsibility come when you have sex? It's a risk you take whenever you have sex that you'll get pregnant, contraceptives help the risk but don't prevent it, so you know you're still taking that risk, and why should a potential life have to pay for that?

I believe because it is infringing on a woman's bodily integrity she has the right to remove it in whatever way possible- this method obviously being abortion. Once the kid's born, it's no longer infringing on her bodily integrity; anyone can take care of its social requirements. I already spoke about responsibility- she is taking responsibility when she realises she is pregnant and acts accordingly.

Abortion is murder, it's that simple.

Not according to my Australian Oxford Dictionary; "murder- n. 1. intentional unlawful killing of a human being by another (cf. MANSLAUGHTER)" Wow! Abortion's legal where I live!

The Catholic lady knows of this group who sets up adoptions.

Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.

It should be against the law to murder.

It is, dumbass.

If you have an abortion, your odds of getting breast cancer go up.

Not accorting to the National Cancer Institute. "They concluded that having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer." http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/3_75.htm - that might be helpful, presuming you can read some of the big words.

[Medellia]

If you have an abortion, your odds of getting breast cancer go up.
I'm not even sure if this is true, but if it is it's probably because of the drastic hormonal changes that a woman goes through when she becaomes pregnant and then loses the child (for lack of a better word) and not because of the actual procedure. So if that is the case, then women who have had miscarriages also wil have a higher risk of breast cancer.

And like I said earlier.... IT IS NOT YOUR CHOICE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE DOES WITH THEIR BODY.

[QueenAdrock]

Stubborn asshole men who think it's their place to tell women what to do with their own bodies make me want to go out and get knocked up and have an abortion and throw the fetus on their doorstep. (y)

[QueenAdrock]

My wife works with a 18 year old girl. The 18 year old girl got pregnate.

As far as aortion not being a dude's business.......... does't it take a dude to get a dude ette pregnate? (maybe I'm wrong)

Don't even fucking try. We're not as dumb as you think. It seems awfully convenient that two people misspell the same word the exact same way, that one of them randomly comes in AS A NEWBIE (who generally never come to political discussion first, they always go to Beastie General discussion first) and posts, agreeing with everything gmsisko says (which never happens). And yes, I did notice that thecentre posted in Beastie FREE, which also never happens as a newbie. If you aren't him, you definitely know him/related to him. Don't be a dumbass.

I'm having the MOD's run a search on your IP address.

[Los Para Noias]

Nope. It just results in a rise in the mortality and morbidity rates as women obtain illegal, unsafe abortions. I refer you to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5886985/ .

The situation in asia is much different than in the rest of the world, where there is less consequence to having children, especially of a specific gender. I wonder where all the articles are about Germany's and Switzerland's strict abortion laws killing women are.

she is taking responsibility when she realises she is pregnant and acts accordingly....
Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.


People need more responsibility than trying to clean their mess after they decide they messed up. And it's not an alternative to pregnancy, you're already pregnant when you have an abortion, the alternative to pregnancy is responsibility during sex (including being accountable for accidents).

Not accorting to the National Cancer Institute. "They concluded that having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer." http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/3_75.htm - that might be helpful, presuming you can read some of the big words.

About the cancer...

The abortion-breast cancer (ABC) hypothesis posits an association between having an abortion and a higher risk of developing breast cancer. The proposed mechanism is based on the increased estrogen levels found during early pregnancy, which initiate cellular differentiation (growth) in the breast in preparation for lactation. The ABC hypothesis states that if the pregnancy is aborted before full differentiation in the third trimester, then more "vulnerable" undifferentiated cells would be left than prior to the pregnancy, resulting in an elevated risk of breast cancer. The majority of interview-based studies have indicated a link, some are statistically significant, but there is debate as to their reliability.
The most recent meta-analysis of 53 epidemiological studies published by Dr. Beral et al. in The Lancet in March 2004 found no ABC link; those findings have been disputed by Dr. Brind, a leading scientific advocate of the ABC hypothesis. Nevertheless, gaps and inconsistencies remain in the research as the "ABC link" continues to be a politicized issue.

obviously there is a bit of debate about that, and there are also arguments that abortions cause depression, but really that isn't the argument here.

[Documad]

It should be against the law to murder.

It is. At least in the USA.

[zorra_chiflada]

Stubborn asshole men who think it's their place to tell women what to do with their own bodies make me want to go out and get knocked up and have an abortion and throw the fetus on their doorstep. (y)

i hear ya!

[venusvenus123]

i think it is an interesting society we live in. it is considered the most heinous crime to murder a baby of say, 8 weeks. yet it is ok to abort a baby of 24 weeks gestation.

i have had two pregnancies. one live birth and one miscarriage at 12 weeks.

in my second pregnancy of which my five year old son was the result, i bled at six weeks. i went for a scan immediately and was amazed to see a little blinking light which was his heartbeat. at my 12-week scan i could see his nose and mouth and his feet tucked up under his bottom. at twenty weeks he was doing cartwheels and i could see that he was a boy.

i personally don't like abortions, but if they were made illegal, it would i believe simply push women to seek out dodgy practitioners. however, i do think that abortions have become too easy, so that people don't really think too much about the consquences of having sex too thoroughly.

as far as i'm aware, the areas where people are having abortions are NOT overpopulated. in britain and france the population levels are dropping -- the government is begging people to have more kids.

frankly (and as you can probably tell) it pisses me off that abortions are legal up to 24 weeks. now, wasn't that law made by a man?



Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.
i find that such a chilling statement. :(

[FearandLoathing]

The situation in asia is much different than in the rest of the world, where there is less consequence to having children, especially of a specific gender. I wonder where all the articles are about Germany's and Switzerland's strict abortion laws killing women are.

Um, so it's different just 'cause you say so? And last time I checked, abortion's fully legal in Germany...can you point me to a link that says I'm wrong?

People need more responsibility than trying to clean their mess after they decide they messed up. And it's not an alternative to pregnancy, you're already pregnant when you have an abortion, the alternative to pregnancy is responsibility during sex (including being accountable for accidents).

Say Joe Bloggs ate a helluva lot of junk food on a continual basis. Subsequently, he had a heart attack. Should he be denied treatment because he was responsible for eating so much unhealthy food?

About the cancer...

The abortion-breast cancer (ABC) hypothesis posits an association between having an abortion and a higher risk of developing breast cancer. The proposed mechanism is based on the increased estrogen levels found during early pregnancy, which initiate cellular differentiation (growth) in the breast in preparation for lactation. The ABC hypothesis states that if the pregnancy is aborted before full differentiation in the third trimester, then more "vulnerable" undifferentiated cells would be left than prior to the pregnancy, resulting in an elevated risk of breast cancer. The majority of interview-based studies have indicated a link, some are statistically significant, but there is debate as to their reliability.
The most recent meta-analysis of 53 epidemiological studies published by Dr. Beral et al. in The Lancet in March 2004 found no ABC link; those findings have been disputed by Dr. Brind, a leading scientific advocate of the ABC hypothesis. Nevertheless, gaps and inconsistencies remain in the research as the "ABC link" continues to be a politicized issue.

obviously there is a bit of debate about that, and there are also arguments that abortions cause depression, but really that isn't the argument here.

Yeah, okay, you didn't even read the fucking link; it was meant for the catholic lunatic anyway.

Quote:
Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting.

i find that such a chilling statement.

I find it chilling that you don't want women to have control over their body after their twenty-fourth week of pregnancy. :rolleyes:

[venusvenus123]

if my kid is pissing me off, do you think it's ok that i kill it? :rolleyes:

[FearandLoathing]

if my kid is pissing me off, do you think it's ok that i kill it? :rolleyes:

I've already addressed this in my other posts. It's not infringing on your bodily integrity, so why the hell would I?

[FearandLoathing]

All of your bullshit.

Please fucking kill yourself. Seriously. If I have to listen to one more anti-choice fuck go on without addressing ONE GODDAMNED POINT I might just snap and become Stalin.

[Weezman]

my dad wanted me aborted.....i turned out to be a better man than he was.

hows that for pro-choice......way to go MOM!! :D (y)

[Los Para Noias]

Um, so it's different just 'cause you say so? And last time I checked, abortion's fully legal in Germany...can you point me to a link that says I'm wrong?

Say Joe Bloggs ate a helluva lot of junk food on a continual basis. Subsequently, he had a heart attack. Should he be denied treatment because he was responsible for eating so much unhealthy food?


"The Federal Constitutional Court issued a decision a year later maintaining its earlier decision that the constitution protected the fetus from the moment of conception, but stated that abortions during the first trimester should not be subject to punishment, assuming that the mother had submitted to counselling aimed at changing her mind. Abortions are not covered by public health insurance except for women with low income." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany I said it was more difficult to get, not illegal (although it was illegal for a while).

You really can't compare outlawing abortions to the situation in asia without comparing it at least to the western countries first, because believe it or not, they have a lot in common with us, it's not just 'because I said so.' And having a heart attack and wanting something in your body killed for socio-economic reasons are pretty different.

[franscar]

http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/The_Link.htm

http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/abckahl.htm


http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_10.asp#When%20does%20hu man%20life%20begin?

I knew I'd regret it. I thought actually writing "pro-life funded" might make you think about who your sources were. Ah well, nothing like an agenda to help persuade medical research.

[Chicka B]

I think that an abortion can be ok for neccessary reasons, like if the mother or baby would die anyway, if the woman was raped and don't want to be reminded, if the baby was really disabled and would remain miserable his/her whole life...you know. But I'm completely against killing a human life just for the reason that the mother don't want a baby, afraid of giving birth, teenager that can't raise it, don't want to be a mother, father don't want a baby, accidentally got knocked up. I'm totally against it and think it's selfish.

[Los Para Noias]

Well the other things are mostly what I'm talking about, and the cause of most abortions anyway:

Women from 27 nations reported the following reasons for seeking an induced abortion:[1]

25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% – Cannot afford a baby
14.1% – Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% – Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% – Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% – Want no (more) children
3.3% – Risk to fetal health
2.8% – Risk to maternal health
2.1% – Rape, incest, other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

[FearandLoathing]

"The Federal Constitutional Court issued a decision a year later maintaining its earlier decision that the constitution protected the fetus from the moment of conception, but stated that abortions during the first trimester should not be subject to punishment, assuming that the mother had submitted to counselling aimed at changing her mind. Abortions are not covered by public health insurance except for women with low income." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany I said it was more difficult to get, not illegal (although it was illegal for a while).

So, it's not hard to get abortions in Germany.

You really can't compare outlawing abortions to the situation in asia without comparing it at least to the western countries first, because believe it or not, they have a lot in common with us, it's not just 'because I said so.' And having a heart attack and wanting something in your body killed for socio-economic reasons are pretty different.

Before abortion was illegal, most deaths/injuries by abortion remained unreported- or were said to have been caused by something else- for the simple fact that abortion was illegal. Hence, it's hard to come by solid numbers. I could show you my photograph of a woman dead of an illegal abortion- but it isn't a pretty sight, and I'm not one to use scare tacts. What I was attempting to illustrate was that women do get illegal abortions. This is a pretty shoddy source, in that it's not specific, but wikipedia says "Many Western countries began to make abortion illegal in the 19th century. Anti-abortion forces were led by a combination of conservative groups opposed to abortion on moral grounds and medical professionals who were concerned about the danger presented by the procedure and the regular involvement of non-medical personnel in performing abortions.

It became clear in the following years, however, that illegal abortions continued to take place in large numbers even where abortions were expressly illegal. It was difficult to obtain sufficient evidence to prosecute the mothers and doctors, and judges and juries were often reluctant to convict. For instance: Dr. Henry Morgentaler was never convicted by a jury. Many were also outraged at the invasion of privacy and the medical problems resulting from abortions taking place illegally in medically dangerous circumstances. Political movements soon coalesced around the legalization of abortion and liberalization of existing laws."

And as to the heart attack thing, you completely missed my point. The point of that was HE was responsible for eating so much- I wasn't addressing the life point. I was addressing the responsibility point 'cause you keep harping on about it.

[ToucanSpam]

I am pro-choice. That is all I am going to say.

[Los Para Noias]

Before abortion was illegal, most deaths/injuries by abortion remained unreported- or were said to have been caused by something else- for the simple fact that abortion was illegal. Hence, it's hard to come by solid numbers. I could show you my photograph of a woman dead of an illegal abortion- but it isn't a pretty sight, and I'm not one to use scare tacts. What I was attempting to illustrate was that women do get illegal abortions. This is a pretty shoddy source, in that it's not specific, but wikipedia says "Many Western countries began to make abortion illegal in the 19th century. Anti-abortion forces were led by a combination of conservative groups opposed to abortion on moral grounds and medical professionals who were concerned about the danger presented by the procedure and the regular involvement of non-medical personnel in performing abortions.

And as to the heart attack thing, you completely missed my point. The point of that was HE was responsible for eating so much- I wasn't addressing the life point. I was addressing the responsibility point 'cause you keep harping on about it.

Yeah there really is no reason to bring up disgusting pictures, they don't prove a point. I don't think that suddenly if you stop legalized abortions it will be like a switch where it doesn't happen anymore, but like I said I think more things should be available to unwanted mothers, which will prevent people from trying to have abortions even if it is illegal.

The heart attack example still doesn't hold ground, because he may be responsible, but the consequence is his life, and doctors treating him really don't even risk that, but when it is a mother she is responsible for both herself and the thing inside her, whether it is human or not, and going to a doctor to get rid of it is hardly a solution unless it is going to actually endanger her health.

[QueenAdrock]

Don't you yell at people for having LIBERAL PROPAGANDA?

It's the same thing. Don't be a hypocrite. Seriously.

[cosmo105]

I think there are alot more abortions than miscarriages. Thanx for playin!
well, that was awfully stupid.

Miscarriage occurs in at least 20 percent of all pregnancies (http://www.miscarriage-statistics.com/)

idiot.

[ToucanSpam]

Excues me??? Abortion has killed more humans than all major wars put together. You call me an idiot?
Where are the statistics for this?

[cosmo105]

haha bullshit. and yes, you're an idiot for saying there are more abortions than miscarriages.

Miscarriage reportedly occurs in 20 percent of all pregnancies. However, according to some sources, this may be an inaccurate number. Many women, before realizing a life has begun forming within them, may miscarry without knowing it-assuming their miscarriage is merely a heavier period. Therefore, the miscarriage rate may be closer to 40 or 50 percent

[cosmo105]

the words "bible" and "truth" don't exactly mix

[ToucanSpam]

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm
that is by far the shadiest website I have ever been to. The HTML BIBLE? Seriously, come up with something credible.

[cosmo105]

haha
html bible!
end times!
BY GUM, THESE AREN'T BIASED SOURCES AT ALL!

[QueenAdrock]

haha, told to come up with something more credible than htmlbible.com, and he reposts it


BRA-VO

[ToucanSpam]

http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm

http://abort-truth.tripod.com/id2.html

http://endtimespeculate.crosswinds.net/T__POLITICS_AND_ECONOMICS/09A_PRO_LIFE_VOTING.txt
Your first two websites (the first being the same link from before, which I already dismissed as being completely shady) have different numbers for the abortion death counts. There is a difference of 10 MILLION. Explain that.

[QueenAdrock]

A link that tells about how the different democrats differ on abortions?

what kind of shit is this?

do you seriously just type random words into google and just pick whatever pops up?

[cosmo105]

Do you really think a liberal source is going to tell the truth about this.
Give me a break.
You still can't argue with facts. Go ahead and try to refute the facts.
if you presented them, i would. so it's okay that both "statistics" differ by 10 million, because IT'S STILL MORE DEATHS THAN WARS! HO HO!

[QueenAdrock]

Do you really think a liberal source is going to tell the truth about this.
Give me a break.
You still can't argue with facts. Go ahead and try to refute the facts.

No, a liberal source would be BIASED. Please, we asked for a NON-BIASED source. Looks like you need some research into what "non-biased" sources are.

[cosmo105]

A link that tells about how the different democrats differ on abortions?

what kind of shit is this?

do you seriously just type random words into google and just pick whatever pops up?
yeah, i was wondering about that. hrm, rich white men arguing about something that will never directly affect them!

[ToucanSpam]

No matter how you look at it, it's still more deaths than all wars.
If you create ficticious number then it does.

[QueenAdrock]

^yeah. 45% of all people know that.

[cosmo105]

what's the difference between a pile of dead babies and a Cadillac?









i don't have a Caddy in my garage.

[cosmo105]

If a tree falls on a baby in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, is it still hilarious?

[QueenAdrock]

I'm just telling it like it is. (Somthing liberals won't do)

No, you're not. You're using BIASED sources. Liberal sources, any organizations that are out there for a PURPOSE, are biased. Just because you BELIEVE it is the truth, does not mean it is.

I could do the same thing. I could post up links from socialthinking.org, and call it truth. But it is NOT truth, because that is a biased source. It would be truth if it came from a NEUTRAL PARTY, not out to further their own agenda. You would know it was the truth if they were not leaning towards one side or the other, just someone who was dedicated on reporting the absolute truth to the people.

Jesus Christ, if you ever went to ANY college, you would learn these things! I'm still workin' for you, though, sisko. I'm trying to get a democrat in office so you can afford a formal education one of these days.

[QueenAdrock]

lawlz @ jess

What's red and chunky and goes 50 miles an hour?

A baby in a blender!!

[ToucanSpam]

What's red and silver and pinned to the wall?



A baby with forks in it's eyes.

[QueenAdrock]

What's the difference between a dead baby and a golden delicious apple?




You don't have to bleed the golden delicious apple before you take a bite out of it

[Documad]

Hey, you people in other parts of the US: Do you have the goofy right to life billboards with a photo of a baby and then a little factoid like "she had fingerprints at 20 weeks" and stuff like that?

Because what I've always wanted to know is why the babies are always so ugly. The photos of babies on baby food or diaper bags are cute. But the right to life people intentionally select the ugliest babies and tape a silly bow on their head and put it on a billboard. :confused:

[QueenAdrock]

They're so ugly because all the beautiful liberal babies refused to do the photoshoot. So they had to make do with one of their inbred ones. :(

[Documad]

They're so ugly because all the beautiful liberal babies refused to do the photoshoot.
:)

I think there has to be a motive behind it. Have they done studies that people feel worse if they see an ugly baby on a billboard? Or do they think the billboard babies resemble babies the anti-choice people might have (i.e. the taped on little bow which just looks stupid on all hairless little girl babies)?

I've also noticed that you don't see any non-white babies on our billboards, so I assume they're not trying to get the non whites to have more babies.

I'm not making this up, btw, a bunch of my friends have noticed the ugly babies.

[i'mcrafty]

Because what I've always wanted to know is why the babies are always so ugly.


(!) no baby is ugly! :mad: :(


and, no i'm NOT a pro-lifer. i just had to add in that little comment!
bad Documad, bad!

[Medellia]

I think there are alot more abortions than miscarriages. Thanx for playin!
Doubtful. Do a little research on miscarriages before you say shit like that.

[zorra_chiflada]

Yeah,
Lets brutally murder the poor baby because we got pregnate by accident.
(thats basically what this post says)

or "i was poorly educated due to poverty and some bastard got me drunk, stuck his dick in me and fucked off."

some arsehole men should be retro-actively aborted.

[louise]

well my thoughts on this is that abortion should be able every where around this globe I mean it IS the womans choice SHE has to carry it with her for atleast 9 months, after that MOST off the time woman take MOST care for the kids so if SHE doesn't wants it no matter what resson she must be given the chance to do something about it.....only she can deside (sp) it's her body her choice !!


furtherly i really wanne say that most woman do have a few miscarries (sp) in their live's but many don't know it cause it's only a few day's or weeks ( like your somewhat a bit late ) much woman don't know or realise this ....

thank god i live in a country that if i don't want to put a child on this world cause of something i don't have to and can go to the hospital and have it removed.....

yes i am glad it's possible here i don't think i would ever make use of it but on the other side i really don't have a cluw (sp) what still is comming my way so I can make that choice for myself just like all the other things in live wich i have to choose from aswell

[Documad]

(!) no baby is ugly! :mad: :(
No baby is ugly to his/her mother (thank goodness) but many babies are rather unattractive. I am unable to lie about stuff like that so I always have to make up something else to say when people bring their new babies to work. So I will compliment his disposition or say I'll bet she's a good sleeper, or if pressed "what a little peanut"--which people always take in a positive way.

But im' crafty, you live here. Drive from Minneapolis to St. Cloud on either Highway 10 or 94 and look at the babies on the billboards and tell me what you think.

[Documad]

Women from 27 nations reported the following reasons for seeking an induced abortion:

25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% – Cannot afford a baby
14.1% – Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% – Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% – Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% – Want no (more) children
3.3% – Risk to fetal health
2.8% – Risk to maternal health
2.1% – Rape, incest, other
These all strike me as good reasons.


I have a close friend who had an abortion recently. The first friend I know of in a long time. She is married with a kid and wanted another but there were problems this time. What bothered me is that even when it was clear to various doctors, her, her husband, and even me, that she shouldn't have this one, and while her hormones were all out of whack, her otherwise sensible regular doctor presented her with a couple of really awful alternatives that would have endangered her life and not really increased the chances of this fetus ever being delivered live--as if she really had a choice. It was all designed to avoid saying, "you really should terminate the pregnancy." And she got the feeling that he was doing this not because he believed they were real options, but because he felt that he had to. It made us wonder what sort of political pressure doctors are under today.

[GreenEarthAl]

gms - Could you please learn how to spell pregnant for the sake of this discussion, or just as a personal favor to me?

all you mean liberals - How hard is it to just say "Okay sisko, you are right. There have been more abortions than all U.S. war deaths combined. Even if the stats are off by 10 million or 20 million or whatever million, they STILL outnumber US war deaths."

What the hell do you hope to accomplish by flame bating people who care about the health of featuses? Do you think that dead baby jokes, the unfunniest things EVER invented --excepting perhaps for Jim Belushi-- are going to make anti-abortionists change their stance on anything or inform the discussion in any way?

[Los Para Noias]

Can we just ignore the idiots and have a sensible discussion? thanks

[QueenAdrock]

The non-biased sources won't get involved in this subject. Please refute the facts and not the sources.


You're an idiot. That's all I can say from your astounding stupidity.

[QueenAdrock]

Do you think that dead baby jokes, the unfunniest things EVER invented --excepting perhaps for Jim Belushi-- are going to make anti-abortionists change their stance on anything or inform the discussion in any way?


I don't care about changing minds as much as I do being tasteless, inappropriate, and a jackass to said people.

[GreenEarthAl]

Your prerogative.

[cosmo105]

Lets see here, you said that 20 to 50 percent of pregnate women misscariage.

Is it 20% or is it 50 % or is it both?
the real number is up to 50% (and that's from the same source) because many are undocumented in that the women don't realize they're pregnant before they miscarry. why am i even bothering? i just hope you'll never get anyone "pregnate."

[QueenAdrock]

So the theory is, instead of abortions, women should try to miscarry because then they won't go to hell, right?

Looks like I'm going to have to go grab a bottle of liquor and throw myself down the stairs a few times. Who wants to join? Cosmy? You preggerz too? I have enough Jack Daniels for two :-*

[cosmo105]

let's just punch each other in the uterus a bunch. i'll grab my coat hanger just to be on the safe side!

[QueenAdrock]

omg we'll make a day of it

<3<3<3

[Medellia]

Lets see here, you said that 20 to 50 percent of pregnate women misscariage.

Is it 20% or is it 50 % or is it both?
Sisko, it's 20% TO 50%. Not 20% OR 50%. 20 TO 50% means that it is somewhere in between, but we will never know the exact number because, as Cosmo said, many women miscarry before they know they're pregnant (and it's "prenant" not "pregnate"). It really isn't that hard to understand. Just read it over and think for more than five seconds.

[Documad]

let's just punch each other in the uterus a bunch. i'll grab my coat hanger just to be on the safe side!
It's much more difficult to find wire coat hangers since people converted to plastic ones.

[Medellia]

I'll send you guys some of my wire hangers if you like! :D

[zorra_chiflada]

Thats not teh cause of MOST abortions. At least be an honest liberal.

first of all - yes it is.
second of all, don't call me a liberal, you idiot. i am not a liberal. did you get that, I AM NOT A LIBERAL. don't refer to me as one again.
i do not like the liberals much more than i like the conservatives. do you think that everyone that disagrees with you is a liberal? fucking hell, why does anyone bother?

[zorra_chiflada]

Just don't sleep around, or just don't get pregnate.

haha, but it's ok for men, isn't it?

[Los Para Noias]

first of all - yes it is.
second of all, don't call me a liberal, you idiot. i am not a liberal. did you get that, I AM NOT A LIBERAL. don't refer to me as one again.
i do not like the liberals much more than i like the conservatives. do you think that everyone that disagrees with you is a liberal? fucking hell, why does anyone bother?

25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing

it's not...

but ignore the guy, he's already attacked me in this thread, and I'm arguing his point.

[QueenAdrock]

It's easy for men to tell women to do what they think should be done with their bodies, because simply enough, they DON'T have to deal with that child. Some people act like it's also up to the man, but a lot of the time, the man doesn't STICK AROUND.

There are so many cases of the baby being born and the man saying he's going to help raise it, and uh-oh, he found some other sweet tail that tells him that being a dad isn't sexy. So he ditches the woman and the child, and goes running after that sweet tail. Cuz he's a man.

Simply put: a man does NOT have to deal with that baby for the rest of his life. At any time, he can pack up and move out. Do you think a mother can do this? She can just say "I don't want to be a mom anymore" and leave? No, she can't. Mothers are in it for the long haul. No matter what, that baby has to be hers after it's born (or given to adoption, which is an extremely hard thing to do once a formal attachment is created between mother and child post-birth). THAT is why it's a woman's decision. All the man has to do is plant his seed (the too-common lie of "yeah keep it baby, i'll help you raise it" is optional). The WOMAN has to carry that baby for 9 months, and nurture it and support it for the REST of her life.

She should be able to choose how the rest of her life should be, even if she did make a mistake. It's not fair to the baby or the mother, to grow up in poverty because she was walked out on and has no support. And it's going to be the hardest decision she'll ever make.

[zorra_chiflada]

25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing

it's not...

but ignore the guy, he's already attacked me in this thread, and I'm arguing his point.

"postpone childbearing" would indicate that they don't want to be a mother at the age of 14.

[Medellia]

"postpone childbearing" would indicate that they don't want to be a mother at the age of 14.
BUt even if the woman gets it for one of the other reasons, that's still 74.5%. So even if someone wants to say that postponing childbirth alone is not a good enough reason (which is what this guy seems to be saying since it was the only one he pointed out), it still means that the majority of abortions are for a legitimate reason.

[louise]

Just don't sleep around, or just don't get pregnate.
^^ I got pregnant 2 time's already , why not more ??

that's just foolisch to say don't you think ?? we here got real low numbers on the abortions you know that's because WE GOT THAT CHOICE !!! further i don't wanne bring up anny numbers or whatever cause i don't believe it's only like that , look around !! Many of the people with this as a problem don't even whant to go to their own docter......

that's the nice things i can make my own choice
Thank god for the healthy thoughts here and being my own boss over my own body without someone judging me


pro choice = pro murder?????

that ^ is to stupid for words !!

[Los Para Noias]

or "i was poorly educated due to poverty and some bastard got me drunk, stuck his dick in me and fucked off."

some arsehole men should be retro-actively aborted.

"postpone childbearing" would indicate that they don't want to be a mother at the age of 14.

Exactly, they aren't the same thing, not saying that the former doesn't fall into the latter.

Simply put: a man does NOT have to deal with that baby for the rest of his life. At any time, he can pack up and move out. Do you think a mother can do this? She can just say "I don't want to be a mom anymore" and leave? No, she can't. Mothers are in it for the long haul. No matter what, that baby has to be hers after it's born (or given to adoption, which is an extremely hard thing to do once a formal attachment is created between mother and child post-birth). THAT is why it's a woman's decision. All the man has to do is plant his seed (the too-common lie of "yeah keep it baby, i'll help you raise it" is optional). The WOMAN has to carry that baby for 9 months, and nurture it and support it for the REST of her life.

So basically men can't have a say because of the stereotypes against them? And women are always innocent in this matter, let's remember that.

BUt even if the woman gets it for one of the other reasons, that's still 74.5%. So even if someone wants to say that postponing childbirth alone is not a good enough reason (which is what this guy seems to be saying since it was the only one he pointed out), it still means that the majority of abortions are for a legitimate reason.

And actually, I think that the three viable reasons are 3.3% – Risk to fetal health 2.8% – Risk to maternal health 2.1% – Rape, incest, other, because as was said earlier, all the rest can usually be prevented, and even if not it's a persons responsibility to deal with the small chance that sex will make you pregnant.

[FearandLoathing]

It's not stupid, its the truth. But the word truth doesn't mean much to most liberals. Most abortions take place because the baby is inconvient.

The aborted baby is alive, it has its own DNA. If you kill it, you are murdering it. How is that stupid?

You goddamned idiot. I already explained murder, you moron.

And actually, I think that the three viable reasons are 3.3% – Risk to fetal health 2.8% – Risk to maternal health 2.1% – Rape, incest, other, because as was said earlier, all the rest can usually be prevented, and even if not it's a persons responsibility to deal with the small chance that sex will make you pregnant.

Seriously, it's like you're stickin' your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you!" You're not really addressing points, you're just repeating your own opinion. Abortion isn't going to be made illegal because you don't like it. Again, no contraception is completely effective. Are you saying that every woman should be abstinent unless she wants a kid? You keep acting like barely any women who get pregnant were using contraception- look at this; http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3429402.html . I think it's really informative. You don't seem to be addressing the bodily integrity issue, either.

[Los Para Noias]

That information is pretty informative, and 14% of people using contraceptives correctly doesn't seem that high (although it's not a number to snuff at). As I definitely did say before, it's not a matter of abstinence, it's a matter of responsibility, so I am not saying that people should 'expect' a child if they have sex, but they need to be prepared for accidents one way or the other, whether abortions are legal or not, because both having a child or having an abortion can be emotionally wracking, so it's not that far fetched to say that if you're going to have sex, even using contraceptives (correctly), you still need to be responsible for what happens.

And what do you mean about body integrity?

[marsdaddy]

Women from 27 nations reported the following reasons for seeking an induced abortion:[1]

25.5% – Want to postpone childbearing Unwanted child, doesn't get the love or attention it needs
21.3% – Cannot afford a baby Poor family can't provide necessities for child, including healthcare, in USA.
14.1% – Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy Abusive relationship, single parent.
12.2% – Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy immature parents don't know how to raise child.
10.8% – Having a child will disrupt education or job immature parents, resentment, income restrictions.
7.9% – Want no (more) children Too old, can't afford.
3.3% – Risk to fetal health Obvious
2.8% – Risk to maternal health Obvious
2.1% – Rape, incest, other Obvious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
And actually, I think that the three viable reasons are 3.3% – Risk to fetal health 2.8% – Risk to maternal health 2.1% – Rape, incest, other, because as was said earlier, all the rest can usually be prevented, and even if not it's a persons responsibility to deal with the small chance that sex will make you pregnant.You're entitled to your opinion, but what if you're wrong. The consequences are not just that a fetus gestates, becomes a baby, is born, and grows up. The consequences are that more unwanted children are born, to immature, resentful, uneducated, and/or poor parents.

Oh, and this chart is dubious. Many of the reasons stated are probably applicable to the same person -- i.e., too young, and in school could be a duplicate reason.

[QueenAdrock]

So basically men can't have a say because of the stereotypes against them? And women are always innocent in this matter, let's remember that.


Not because of stereotypes. Because of the fact, that if he wants to, he can leave. The woman can NEVER leave. SHE has to deal with it the rest of her life. It's so easy to say "keep it" when you can skip out on the woman at any time if it becomes an inconvenience for you.

And yes, women are always innocent. Thank you for clarifying my point, because that is exactly what I meant to say. :rolleyes:

[QueenAdrock]

You goddamned idiot. I already explained murder, you moron.

Welcome to the world of gmsisko. He is so incredibly brainwashed, he refuses to see the other side of the fence without frothing at the mouth and spitting out retarded catch phrases he saw on Hannity & Colmes (which is truth, because he says conservative propaganda (while still propaganda) is truth, and liberal propaganda is false, because HE KNOWS ALL AND SEES ALL CUZ HE'S THE SMARTEST MAN ALIVE AND CAN TELL TRUTH FROM UNTRUTH AND IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE YOU'RE AN INCHWHIPPER). His head is shoved so far up his ass, it's unbelievable.

[QueenAdrock]

No HUMAN is always innocent. Yes the guy can leave if he wants,the female can't. It all comes back to responcibility. If you have sex, you need to be ready for any possibility that a child might be the result. Don't murder that child just because you can't live with your mistake.

Yeah, and it's easy to say that, because you, being a man, don't have to be responsible for your actions. You don't NEED to be ready for any possibility. Men can be as irresponsible as they want, and blame the women for getting knocked up because she should have known better, right? Men get off scott-free, because women are the ones who are going to have to make the toughest decisions of their lifetimes.

Tell me, does the woman go to hell for having the abortion, the man, or both?

[Tone Capone]

Just babies, then?


Well, being that this is a thread about ABORTION (killing babies), yeah I'm talking about just babies. Don't try to pin other issues on top of this.


ps. These threads are all the same.

[QueenAdrock]

If more people would wait till they got married to have sex, then this problem would be ALMOST NON EXISTANT. Lets murder the baby to fix our mistake.
(I wish I could say I waited till marriage to have sex) Not waiting will only bring you future problems.

20% is non-existant? Married people have abortions, too. (http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/marital.asp) Over 100,000 of the abortions were from married couples. I guess that's non-existant, huh?

A lot of abortions are because they're not ready to be parents. Just because you've got a piece of paper saying you're legally bound to one another for the rest of your lives does NOT mean you're automatically ready to start a family.

[FearandLoathing]

And what do you mean about body integrity

The women's right to control their own bodies. Um, I'm not very witty, so instead of making up my own analogy I'll put a link to Judith Jarvis Thompson's famous one- http://www.utdallas.edu/~jfg021000/thomson.html .

I still don't see why having an abortion isn't taking responsibility in itself. People should definitely understand that a consequence of sex may well be pregnancy; and thus they should be prepared to decide how they want to deal with that.

[Tone Capone]

If more people would wait till they got married to have sex, then this problem would be ALMOST NON EXISTANT...


That it isn't realistic. Marriage doesn't mean "no abortions". The key should be education about sex and contraceptives and alternatives to abortion in order to end the killing of babies.

[QueenAdrock]

But don't you know? Teaching birth control leads to more sex, because once people find out about condoms, they hop on board faster than you can say premaritals! Teach abstinence only, because when you're at your most ignorant is when you're the safest. (!)

[Tone Capone]

But don't you know? Teaching birth control leads to more sex, because once people find out about condoms, they hop on board faster than you can say premaritals! Teach abstinence only, because when you're at your most ignorant is when you're the safest. (!)

LOL! I can dig it. I'm pickin up what you're puttin down ;)

Education has to be key. You're 100% correct, ignorance only fuels the problem.

[zorra_chiflada]

Rape, about 3 percent of abortions. Thanx for playin

i wasn't talking about rape, i was talking about what happens to a lot of young girls as teenagers, never reported as rape.

[Los Para Noias]

You're entitled to your opinion, but what if you're wrong. The consequences are not just that a fetus gestates, becomes a baby, is born, and grows up. The consequences are that more unwanted children are born, to immature, resentful, uneducated, and/or poor parents.

Well if life doesn't start at conception, or at that point they aren't "human" (which very well may be true), then fine there are these people that are disinfranchized out of avoiding childbirth. But I don't know when people are people, and in all honesty I don't think anybody actually does, a scientist or a priest, so if human life does begin at contraception or whatever point really, and we are aborting many fetuses after this stage, then we are killing many. Since we don't know, I give the benefit of the doubt to the thing that would have the largest moral consequence if correct.

The women's right to control their own bodies. Um, I'm not very witty, so instead of making up my own analogy I'll put a link to Judith Jarvis Thompson's famous one- http://www.utdallas.edu/~jfg021000/thomson.html .

I still don't see why having an abortion isn't taking responsibility in itself. People should definitely understand that a consequence of sex may well be pregnancy; and thus they should be prepared to decide how they want to deal with that.

Ok, about women's right to control their bodies, I think that that case should be true for most situations, but there are still exclusions even commonly accepted today, like suicide. When life (may) be on the line, I think the government has the right to intervene and take away the right for somebody to control their own body. My reasoning for what an abortion isn't taking responsibility is basically because of what I said in the first paragraph, and I think that not taking the benefit of the doubt is not being morally responsible, but if you staunchly believe you know when life begins, to the extent you can't have the benefit of the doubt, then I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

[LA-b-Boy77]

Was it a nice white baby, that wasn't born addicted or physically disabled or anything less than perfect like that? Cuz there's always a great market for those.

The little brown ones, or the ones with health problems, erm... maybe not so much.

Oh, we want to make this a black/white topic? Maybe if you brownies would step up to the plate and stop blaming everyone else for your own problems some of the little brown babies would have a chance. Instead, you walk down the street with you little kid 10 feet behind you and not even paying attention to them or what they are doing. I see this all day every day in every city I've been to.

[marsdaddy]

Since we don't know, I give the benefit of the doubt to the thing that would have the largest moral consequence if correct.
To me a spiraling population of unwanted children is the largest moral consequence.

And I think we do know. Life is not sustainable, without the mother's womb, until the 3rd trimester. Until that time, the mother's rights outweigh the rights of the fetus.

[Los Para Noias]

To me a spiraling population of unwanted children is the largest moral consequence.

And I think we do know. Life is not sustainable, without the mother's womb, until the 3rd trimester. Until that time, the mother's rights outweigh the rights of the fetus.

Population isn't really that big of a problem in America, and there are other ways to go about handling that anyway (the biggest being education, which is the best way to handle any problem really).

And just because life isn't sustainable, doesn't mean that the fetus isn't alive and human, and even then it's one thing to say the mother's rights outweigh the fetus', but it's another to say that a mother is allowed to kill it. A civilian's rights outweigh those of a convict, that doesn't mean a civilian can kill a convict.

[marsdaddy]

Population isn't really that big of a problem in America, and there are other ways to go about handling that anyway (the biggest being education, which is the best way to handle any problem really).

And just because life isn't sustainable, doesn't mean that the fetus isn't alive and human, and even then it's one thing to say the mother's rights outweigh the fetus', but it's another to say that a mother is allowed to kill it. A civilian's rights outweigh those of a convict, that doesn't mean a civilian can kill a convict.If we could do education right, the need for abortions would go down. You're onto "pie in the sky" territory there. And population is a large problem for certain parts of America -- poor, uneducated...

Comparing the convict to civilian is not relevant or appropriate. Does a convict need to live inside a civilian for 6-9 months into order to then be able to function on his or her own?

It's not simply rights outweighing others, but completely dependent on. In other words, the mother's rights outweigh the fetus', to a point. And that point is as long the mother is not killing the fetus...which she is not, as long as the fetus cannot sustain life on it's own. Until that time it is a potential life.

[catatonic]

George Bush told the public he would not consider abortion in deciding on the next justice. He's pretty pro-choice, although not as pro-choice as Kerry.

51% of women in America now think Roe v. Wade should be overturned, but I doubt he'll try to appoint someone who will overturn it. Of course that is also the Democrats fault. If the majority of women are against it, then I have no argument for pro-choice, but they should still allow abortions for rape, incest, or health problems of the child or mother.

[QueenAdrock]

Most married people have abortions for better reasons. (like risk to the mothers life)


So therefore, you're saying 20% of all abortions are because of risk to the mother's life? I'm pretty sure you're WRONG.

But please, show me where you found this.

[Medellia]

Destroying Abortion Myths
By Charles Colson
Prison Fellowship

January 21, 2005




– As Americans have learned more about the devastating impact of abortion, we've seen our country become more pro-life. But we're still a long way from building a culture of life that welcomes every child. To do that, we need to demolish the most pervasive myths about abortion. A new book titled The Cost of 'Choice': Women Evaluate the Impact of Abortion is a valuable tool in that effort. In a series of thought-provoking essays, women from all walks of life tackle those myths head-on.

Myth number one: Abortion is first and foremost a woman's issue. Again and again, the writers in this book make the case that abortion is an issue that hurts all of us, not least by pitting men, women, and children against each other. We've reached a point, the writers explain, where instead of providing support and solutions to women in crisis pregnancies, society often turns against them. The book is full of quotes and stories from women who aborted against their will because other people expected them to do so.

Also noteworthy here is an essay titled "The Feminist Case against Abortion," in which Serrin M. Foster points out, "It is a man—abortion rights activist Larry Lader … who credits himself with guiding a reluctant [Betty] Friedan, the first president of NOW to make abortion a serious issue for the organization." Foster explains how Lader and Dr. Bernard Nathanson worked together to promote the abortion agenda to the feminist movement.

That leads to myth number two. Foster adds, "Dr. Nathanson, who later became a pro-life activist, said that he and Lader were able to persuade Friedan that abortion was a civil rights issue, basing much of their argument on the claim that tens of thousands of women died from illegal abortions each year. Nathanson later admitted that they had simply made up the numbers." In other words, those who claim that repealing Roe would take us back to a Dark Age of women dying in back alleys are basing their argument on a lie.

Which takes us to myth number three: the myth that legalized abortion automatically means safe abortion. Again, the writers in The Cost of 'Choice' beg to differ. Attorney Denise Burke writes, "With the abortion industry's own statistics as a basis, it is clear that thousands of women are being injured by abortion each year and that some of them die." And then there's the physical aftermath of abortion, examined most thoroughly here by Dr. Angela Lanfranchi in an essay on the much-maligned link between abortion and breast cancer.

To enumerate all the abortion-related myths dealt with here could take all day. But really, they're all part of one greater myth: the myth that abortion is good for women. As this book demonstrates, nothing could be further from the truth. Wilberforce Forum Fellow Paige Comstock Cunningham of the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity sums it up well: "Women are simply offered abortion, the quick fix, while genuinely meaningful solutions to their social or personal problems are left unexplored. … As long as abortion on demand remains legal and a constitutional right, women will continue to be isolated and exploited." Please, don't tell us abortion is good for women.
PRISON FELLOWSHIP?!!!!

[Documad]

PRISON FELLOWSHIP?!!!!
Chuck Colson went to prison for his involvement in Watergate. When he was there he (like Martha Stewart) was surprised to find how many people were in prison who are not dangerous. He also found God. So he founded the group with the intent of finding alternative punishments for property offenders. At least that's what I heard 15 years ago when a friend of mine got sucked in. Interesting that he's using that soapbox to discuss his other fundamentalist beliefs.

[BOBBY DIGITAL]

taste great with chicken gravy.

[FearandLoathing]

Population isn't really that big of a problem in America, and there are other ways to go about handling that anyway (the biggest being education, which is the best way to handle any problem really).

And just because life isn't sustainable, doesn't mean that the fetus isn't alive and human, and even then it's one thing to say the mother's rights outweigh the fetus', but it's another to say that a mother is allowed to kill it. A civilian's rights outweigh those of a convict, that doesn't mean a civilian can kill a convict.

Population's a big problem everywhere. Seriously, we're fucked population-wise.

It's alive. It's human. Most pro-choicers will concede it's not a goddamned dolphin. The point is it is using a WOMAN'S BODY. She should be able to stop anything from using her resources. I mean, don't you get it? I feel like thrashing my head against the desk.

[guerillaGardner]

5{hiflada]it infuriates me that it is usually men that make the decisions as to what women do with their bodies.
any man with any morality would realise that they should back the fuck off - unless they magically grow a uterus.[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree. Put it to a women only referendum.

All men donate to the process biologically is sperm. They can say that they are emotionally attached to the fruit of their loins, but does that really compute when most of us have on numerous occasions wiped the fruit of our loins off of our bellies with an old sports sock (to paraphrase Bill Hicks again)

Maybe there are a few guys out there who have protected their seed diligently but in situations like that I don't expect conception would be accidental, but if you've gone out on the prowl on many a Saturday night with the thought of gifting some unsuspecting girl a new necklace then the decision really should be down to women.

Women carry the babies, they go through the pain of childbirth. That this one ejaculation came to something out of dozens of meaningless ones doesn't mean you have the same demands placed on you emotionally and physically. I'd expect some greater investment on my part to guarantee my right to decide and it will never be my right to make decisions about someone else's body unless it is regarding someone in my care.

For the record I wish there was no need for abortion. It's not a nice thing. But neither are a lot of things. One way or another abortion is going to happen - legally or illegally, dangerously or safely. Whether we make it legal or illegal is irrelevant.

Leave the decision to women and as men, even if we don't like it, we should respect it if it's what women choose.

[Tone Capone]

Leave the decision to women and as men, even if we don't like it, we should respect it if it's what women choose.

If the choice really was JUST about a woman's body, then it would be a no brainer, but the choice isn't about just her body. It's not like she's deciding to take out her implants (for example). It's about the other human growing inside of her... and her deciding to murder a child.

[Schmeltz]

It doesn't matter what's growing inside her, whether it's a tumour or a baby. She has the right to let it grow or not to let it grow. "Murder a child" indeed. Easy to fall back on such inane hyperbolic babble when speaking from the purely abstract perspective, isn't it?

[Tone Capone]

Easy to fall back on such inane hyperbolic babble when speaking from the purely abstract perspective, isn't it?

Being that a fertilized egg will become a fully functioning human, yeah it IS murdering an innocent baby anyway you cut it.


ps. "inane hyperbolic babble" ? Nice try (y)

[Schmeltz]

There's no one hundred percent guarantee that a zygote will become a "fully functioning human," and even if there was why should a woman be obligated to support it? Because you say so? You might be uncomfortable with the thought of a woman choosing not to allow her body to be used as life support, but that's not "murder," so sorry.

[Tone Capone]

There's no one hundred percent guarantee that a zygote will become a "fully functioning human,".


There is no 100% guarantee of anything... which is why I didn't say 100%. A fertilized egg will become a human so killing it is... MURDER of an innocent baby.


and even if there was why should a woman be obligated to support it Because you say so?.

There are other alternatives to murdering a baby because a woman doesn't want to support her responsibility (which is why most abortions happen).
Education needs to be key so that abortions will no longer be required. Just yelling "PRO-CHOICE" and "It's a woman's right!" isn't going to help anything. Abortions are also dangerous to the woman who decides to kill her baby, if we can get to the point where woman don't need to make that decision the world will be a better place.

You might be uncomfortable with the thought of a woman choosing not to allow her body to be used as life support, but that's not "murder," so sorry.

Really? What's your definition of murder then? Not only is it murder but, it's murder of an innocent baby. These threads are all the same.

[Schmeltz]

What's your definition of murder then?


I find dictionaries quite useful in these situations.


mur·der ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrdr)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.


Given that the humanity of a fetus is subjective at best, and given that "malice" isn't often listed as a reason for abortions, your cry of "MURDERING INNOCENT BABIES" is thereby exposed as the inane hyperbole it always was.

Furthermore, you still haven't explained why a woman bears any responsibility to a zygote. Even if a zygote could be considered a human (again, a completely subjective issue), why should a woman be obliged to support it with her body? Where does the responsibility come from? It sounds to me like it comes from your personal notions of what women are for, and what they should be forced to do in order to conform to your standards of morality.


Education needs to be key so that abortions will no longer be required.


I think we can all agree on that.

[Tone Capone]

You find it okay to kill an innocent baby. But you don't want to kill someone who has murdered an innocent life.

That's pretty much what's going on here. All these threads are the same. Basically, there are gonna be people who rationalize the murder of innocent babies and there are going to be people who will always think murdering innocent babies is wrong (and oddly enough be looked down upon because of that).


Hopefully in the future, education will make abortions a thing of the past, along with the supposed "need" for abortion.

[QueenAdrock]

there is at least a chance she will get pregnate.

PREGNANT! PREGNANT, PREGNANT, PREGNANT!

JESUS CHRIST! LEARN HOW TO SPELL!

[QueenAdrock]

And stop repeating your same goddamn statements that have been torn apart. It's pathetic. You don't know if the baby feels extreme pain, because the nervous system is not complete, and the brain is not fully functional, the interactions between the nerves is not completely certain. But you keep believing your conservative propaganda that tells you otherwise. :rolleyes:

P.S. Since these women who have abortions are "murderers", do you believe they should be subject to the death penalty? I'd like to know your thoughts on that, since you DO believe in the death penalty as a punishment.

[Medellia]

Really? What's your definition of murder then? Not only is it murder but, it's murder of an innocent baby. These threads are all the same.
But until we get to that point you do believe that we should keep the women getting abortions as safe as possible, right? Even though it's not 100% safe, we should keep them as safe as possible until we reach the point where it's no longer necessary, correct?

PS- Sisko, please learn to spell the word "pregnant" correctly. You're embarassing the people that agree with you.

PPS- Queen, have you heard of Tom Coburn? Republican senator from Oklahoma? He was a doctor before he went into politics and STILL practices here in Oklahoma, despite the fact that he's now in the US Senate. He is so anti-abortion that he believes that doctors who perform abortions should be executed. Even those who perform them to save the mother's life. Even though he has performed TWO himself. Wonderful.

[Schmeltz]

What is the reason we have sex? I believe the reason for sex is for reproduction.


That's great, but not everybody thinks the way you do. In fact, very few people do. For that, we can all be thankful.

Capone: a zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. Your exaggerated argument borders on the ridiculous.

[guerillaGardner]

If the choice really was JUST about a woman's body, then it would be a no brainer, but the choice isn't about just her body. It's not like she's deciding to take out her implants (for example). It's about the other human growing inside of her... and her deciding to murder a child.

I know it's not just about a woman's body. I have to be honest I don't like abortion. I don't like the idea of it but I just feel that it will happen whatever we legislate. WE WILL NOT STOP IT FROM HAPPENING which really makes this argument a moot point.

I'd rather it didn't happen at all, but if it's going to I'd rather it happened under the right conditions, while in the meantime we educate about contraception, etc.

I'd like to see people opting not to have their own children and instead choosing to adopt unwanted babies. I'm not sure if we can make that a popular idea but it's an idea we need to be putting out there.

But to get back to your point Tone Capone, you say it as though women aren't able to make a moral choice. All I am saying is that really, shouldn't this question be down to the people it most affects? Is it possible that when it stops becoming a feminist issue with men removed from the debate can other issues such as morality and ethics stop being clouded over by that issue?

[Tone Capone]

That's great, but not everybody thinks the way you do. In fact, very few people do. For that, we can all be thankful.

Capone: a zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. Your exaggerated argument borders on the ridiculous.



EDIT:

"Anti- Abortionists point to facts that seem to count in favor of the humanity of the fetus. Then they conclude that abortion is not acceptable.

Pro-choicers point to facts that seem to count in favor of the non-personhood of the fetus, and go on to conclude that abortion is acceptable."


This will go round and round, these threads are all the same.

[Medellia]

Way to answer my question, Tone. :rolleyes:

[franscar]

What is the reason we have sex?

Because it's really, really, really good fun.

[Qdrop]

the reason this debate goes around and around is because no one ever makes an attempt to ground it in something solid and less debatable.

"when life begins" is infinitly debatable and will lead no-where.
"is it murder?" is infinitly debatable and will lead no-where.

you need to ground the argument into something more universal and draw a rational line that is at the very least, less debatable: social law and it's deliniation.

social law encompasses unlawful killing or murder, child abuse, neglect...that's all fine and dandy.
and it should stay that way.

what needs to be defined is where social law ends.
the name itself dictates that social law covers all society.
so where does society end?

in a situation such as pregnancy....it must end at the womb.
a fetus cannot be part of society....otherwise, it must be endowed with all of society's rights and privelages and laws.
this is virtually impossible.
can you arrest a pregnant mother for smoking or drinking?
if she made her 2 year old child do it, it would be abuse and reckless endangerment....
so if you endow a fetus with the same rights, you must arrest a pregnant mother if she smokes or drinks.
if a pregnant mother gets in a fist fight...is that reckless endangerment?
does that sound plausible....or even possible?
no.

it's dangerous slippery slope if i ever saw one.



and one can easily come up with any number of individual rights that simply cannot be given to a fetus on the basis of functionality...*and particularly without impeding on the woman's rights!*- that would create a paradoxical hyporcrisy in our civil rights system.

and we cannot "give a fetus some rights...but not all". that too is hypocritical and arbitrary.
it's all or nothing.

so it is impossible to endow a fetus with civil rights and thus impossible to account for it as a part of society.
so a society has no jurisdiction over a fetus.
that ownership and responsibility must fall squarely on the pregnant mother.
not until the child is born, can it be considered part of society and thus subject to our social laws, etc.

pro-choice is the only logical conclusion.

[QueenAdrock]

Because it's really, really, really good fun. (y)


I agree. I don't know about the rest of you, but my reason for having sex is because nothing pisses off Christians more than having pre-maritals with a liberal Jew. :rolleyes:

And yes, he's a DEMON in the sack. :cool:

[Tone Capone]

Way to answer my question, Tone. :rolleyes:

I guess to answer the question... I could care less if she had a safe place to do it. :cool:

[Tone Capone]

pro-choice is the only logical conclusion.

(n)



More education is the only "logical" conclusion.

[franscar]

And yes, he's a DEMON in the sack. :cool:

Just the fact that you said this in a post quoting one of my earlier posts made me feel pretty good.