Feminism

[Documad]

My abridged Oxford Dictionary says:

Feminism = the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Feminist = a person who supports feminism.

I believe that men and women should have equal rights. Thus I guess I'm a feminist. This never comes up in my personal life but it comes up a lot on the internet.


So who is not a feminist? And why do you think women should have less rights than men? Do you also think that racial minorities should have less rights than the white majority? If you had a daughter would you want her to have fewer opportunities for the rest of her life than the boy next door? [Note: I am using the dictionary definitions not talk radio's re-definitions]

[EN[i]GMA]

I don't think many people disagree with that definition of a feminist.

[ms.peachy]

As the saying goes, "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."

[wavin_goodbye]

i think most people are passive feminists... but have you actually done anything to improve the condition of women? because i think that's what would make someone an active feminist.

it's a pity.. active feminism is dead these days

[Bob]

such as....

[ms.peachy]

It depends on what you mean by 'active'. I don't consider myself an activist, per se. But-
- for 3 years in the early 90's I volunteered 5 hours per week as an admin assistant for a feminist arts & political journal called Heresies
- I make monthly direct debits in support of NARAL and Planned Parenthood
- I have attended more marches than I can count or even remember
- professionally, I have participated in several school-based programs designed to promote careers in the sciences to girls and young women
- I've worked with a friend who is a program developer for Girl Scouts of America to create events and workshops in the science
- I work every day with teenage girls (and boys) who are considered "at risk" of falling throught the cracks of the educational system and generally strive to present a good role model of a capable, intelligent person.

So, I wouldn't say I've not done anything. Little by little, day by day.

[DroppinScience]

I love Sleater-Kinney, Le Tigre and The Slits. Does that make me a feminist? ;)

[wavin_goodbye]

It depends on what you mean by 'active'. I don't consider myself an activist, per se. But-
- for 3 years in the early 90's I volunteered 5 hours per week as an admin assistant for a feminist arts & political journal called Heresies
- I make monthly direct debits in support of NARAL and Planned Parenthood
- I have attended more marches than I can count or even remember
- professionally, I have participated in several school-based programs designed to promote careers in the sciences to girls and young women
- I've worked with a friend who is a program developer for Girl Scouts of America to create events and workshops in the science
- I work every day with teenage girls (and boys) who are considered "at risk" of falling throught the cracks of the educational system and generally strive to present a good role model of a capable, intelligent person.

So, I wouldn't say I've not done anything. Little by little, day by day.

see, that's a hell of a lot more than most people... i hope you keep it up :)

[Lindsey_1535]

In grade 9 my gym teacher told me and my friend lianna that WE single handedly set back the woman movement because we didn't want to play soccer baseball. True story.

[sam i am]

i think most people are passive feminists... but have you actually done anything to improve the condition of women? because i think that's what would make someone an active feminist.

it's a pity.. active feminism is dead these days

Does raising three daughters into self-confident, educated, well-adjusted adults count?

[wavin_goodbye]

Does raising three daughters into self-confident, educated, well-adjusted adults count?

jesus since when am i the authority on this subject :confused:

i'm going to say yes on this one, and extra points if any of them make more than their spouses :D (if they're at that age)

[sam i am]

jesus since when am i the authority on this subject :confused:

i'm going to say yes on this one, and extra points if any of them make more than their spouses :D (if they're at that age)

Not at that age yet, but my Mom has almost always made more than my Dad since she got her Master's degree in Psychology. So, I had a great example of this facet of feminism.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Documad]

GMA']I don't think many people disagree with that definition of a feminist.
Then why is it a dirty word now? Why do otherwise sensible people go out of their way to make clear they're not one. "I'm not a feminist but . . . ." I knew a feminist was one of the worst things you could be on talk radio, but not in the real world.

I hadn't actively thought about it for a long time. I think maybe that's because in work and in my private life I am surrounded by men and women who are more feminist than I am. Also I've broken a lot of rules in my own career.

Well, I ended up at a lot of picnics in early July where men and women in my various circles with all kinds of different backgrounds had all noticed a major feminist backlash--especially among younger adults. They had all kinds of theories but I wondered what other people think. (My friends tend to be professionals, artists, or social workers.) If that makes any sense.



I mentor young girls (who seem to think the whole world is in front of them despite a pretty crappy environment), as well as the occassional young professional woman (generally from a privileged background with very different expectations than the women of my class). I find the first to be far more satisfying.

[Documad]

Does raising three daughters into self-confident, educated, well-adjusted adults count?
Yes. I tell my male friends with little girls to take their daughters on errands to the hardware store occassionally. I was always fascinated by doing that stuff with my dad. And it's good to know the basics. :)


A couple of the most surprising feminists I know are elderly guys who were successful lawyers (and a judge) who had no interest in women's rights until their beloved daughters graduated from great schools with great grades and had difficulty competing. It's apparently what took down one of our old, all-male professional clubs. Some powerful old guys didn't want to belong if their daughters couldn't.

[enree erzweglle]

Yes. I tell my male friends with little girls to take their daughters on errands to the hardware store occassionally. I was always fascinated by doing that stuff with my dad. And it's good to know the basics. :)
My dad used to send me to the hardware store with bits and instructions to find bits that looked like them or that looked like they could fit into them. I still suck at that but I got to know the hardware guy pretty well.

[Laver1969]

Then why is it a dirty word now?

When most people hear the word feminist they are not thinking about the dictionary definition...or I should say at least I don't. The word feminist carries negative connotations because I guess a few of the radical nazi-like feminists have changed the perception.

Most sensible folks are "for equality"...but many do not like the crazy folks forcing issues down your throat.

This reminds me of the PETA thread. :)

[Documad]

When most people hear the word feminist they are not thinking about the dictionary definition...or I should say at least I don't. The word feminist carries negative connotations because I guess a few of the radical nazi-like feminists have changed the perception.

Most sensible folks are "for equality"...but many do not like the crazy folks forcing issues down your throat.

This reminds me of the PETA thread. :)
I understand that in theory, but I see very little of it in real life. I remember it from law school (long ago now)--a very small group who called themselves "womyn" because they didn't want "men" in their group's name. I thought that was insane.

I'm not really sure what a radical feminist is. Or a "militant feminist." I've never felt radical or militant but I strongly believe in equality. I'm not a fan of the Nazi word for a couple of reasons. I don't like to compare anything to that supreme evil and I think it reminds me of Rush Limbaugh. :D

I get what you're saying though. There are extremists in every group and usually the members of the group dislike the extremists in their own group the most. I don't like a handful of crackpot black activists, but that doesn't mean I don't actively support civil rights. I have challenged a lot of women who think that their problem is being a woman when there is another logical explanation (i.e. they suck at their job). But I also hate to minimize their concerns, just like I wouldn't tell a black guy that he was crazy to see racism in certain contexts. I think maybe the particular woman had experiences I didn't have. Sometimes I find out for a fact that they did.

I guess this is why I want to reclaim the word. I never considered myself to be a feminist or a liberal or a democrat. But I'm sick of people misusing them so I'm finally ready to accept the labels. :)

[QueenAdrock]

Yeah, when I hear "feminists" it always reminds me of the man-haters from the movie PCU.

Go rent that movie, it's a good one.

It also reminds me of that quote from Family Guy: "Look Lois, I know you're a feminist, and I think that's adorable, but it's grown-up time now, and I'm the man." hahaha (y)

[Laver1969]

I guess this is why I want to reclaim the word. I never considered myself to be a feminist or a liberal or a democrat. But I'm sick of people misusing them so I'm finally ready to accept the labels. :)

What about a new word like an "Equalist". :)

Do you (Documad or anyone else) feel that there is inequality between the sexes? I know there are studies that prove that men still earn more than women and that 90 something percent of the CEOs are men.

I mean in your everyday life do you think you are overlooked for certain opportunities because you're a woman? Or are you viewed/perceived differently strictly because you're a woman?

[Documad]

There is clearly inequality. I certainly experienced it in the past but I've been a lot luckier than many women I know. Today, I work with almost all men in an almost all male area (except of course secretaries). But the top boss genuinely values women and promotes them equally. I will say that when I started with my current group I was warned about a lot of stuff. No woman had ever survived before. The "nicer" guys approached me privately and said that I'd have to do all kinds of things to survive (like be a bully and yell and scream at opposing counsel). They were worried I'd be too soft and they clearly equated softness with weakness. I had heard that before in my last group and I ended up changing the rules. So this time I said I'd do it my way and if that wasn't good enough I'd leave. I wouldn't have had the guts to say that 10 years ago. Your willingness to walk off the job if you're unhappy gives you tremendous power.

There is a glass ceiling in large law firms. I was able to review secret documents at a bunch of large law firms and other professional businesses and it blew my mind. Male attorneys in power have told me that it's because men still tend to run big companies and the male CEO of a major corporation doesn't want to deal with a woman as the lead attorney on his big money case. He's fine with her doing stellar supporting work, but he wants someone white and male like him to be his main contact. There can also be a stigma if you're a single woman because you can't entertain the male corporate client and his wife.

Friends tell me something similar about medicine. They say that women are going to med school as frequently as men but they're far more likely to work in the less valued and less compensated areas. They're general practice doctors not brain surgeons. Female attorneys tend to be more successful in some specialties (employment law) and as a result those specialties have (I think) become devalued within the profession. I think that pretty much any time you see women dominating a profession or segment of a profession, it will be less valued.

I'll also say that female attorneys who are black or Asian have it a lot worse. I've mentored a few. No matter how well they dress, when they show up for court they are often mistaken for anyone other than an attorney.


But one problem with discussing any of this is the role of children. Female attorneys tend to be far more successful if they don't have kids. Even out of the closet lesbians do better than married moms. If a professional woman is going to take 6 months off of work, do you give her your best assignments? If she's going to be the primary caretaker in her family and will be not showing up because her kid is sick, do you give her the biggest case? This can be reversed when the female attorney/mom is married to a guy who will assume more responsibility for the kids.

Damn, I'm just blabbing now. I have to work tonight. :o

[Laver1969]

I probably should do the whole copy and paste thing...but oh well. :)

First off, your post depresses me that things are that unequal.

Secondly, how much do first impressions play in your field? I believe we are all guilty to some degree of pre-judging others based on their age, sex, race, the way we dress, body language, education, and several other qualities. Once others see you in action, you can prove them wrong and you're preceived more equal...right? Personally, I try to give everyone the opportunity to prove themselves...however I'm sure I have gut feelings and predispositions about folks based on the above.

Thirdly, wouldn't a woman CEO prefer a woman lead attorney? If so, is that necessarily equal?

[wavin_goodbye]

speaking as a male, i definitely think there is an inequality present in society (canada here).. although i guess i can't really speak from experience employment wise..

[wavin_goodbye]

Thirdly, wouldn't a woman CEO prefer a woman lead attorney? If so, is that necessarily equal?

i can't speak for any CEO, but wouldn't they just want the best person for the job? regardless of race, sex, etc..

[Documad]

wouldn't a woman CEO prefer a woman lead attorney? If so, is that necessarily equal?
That could be. And when half the world's CEOs of major corporations are female, maybe we won't have a problem anymore. :p


Listen, my own story is a very positive one. In fact, it's so positive that I have been guilty of minimizing others' problems. :o If people don't like me I assume there's a legitimate reason until I have proof of a bad motive. Early on, older male attorneys told me I was being treated differently for being a woman and I blew it off. I couldn't be sure of anyone's motives and it's not like I could do anything about it.

I am still underestimated by my opponents and it's wonderful. Sometimes I think it's because I'm the only woman who does what I do. I look like a soccer mom. But also I'm nice and many trial attorneys are assholes who puff out their chests and they see niceness as a sign of weakness. The thing is that JUDGES never underestimate me, because they like amusing but rock solid arguments with no drama. :) And juries hate bullies and like nice ladies with commonsense arguments. ;)


If you want sad: A young male black attorney who is neat as a pin and wearing the nicest suit you could buy could have graduated from the best law school and when he walks into the courtroom, I bet 50% of the time, the deputy thinks he's a criminal defendant. A young Hispanic female attorney will be mistaken for the Spanish-language interpreter close to 100% of the time.

[Documad]

I hate to piss and moan about small problems of professional women. Because my brother works in a machine shop and the women have it a lot worse there.

And there are a lot of issues that have nothing to do with work.

[zorra_chiflada]

Women are created equal to men. We do however have to realize the differences that men and women have.

men have penises, women have vaginas. i think most of the other differences are environmental.

oh, and inequality between the genders does go beyond the professional setting. no-one seems to notice it, or care about it anymore.

i've been described by people i know as a "militant feminist." i don't know why. i sometimes think my boyfriend is more of a feminist than i am.

[zorra_chiflada]

What about a new word like an "Equalist". :)

Do you (Documad or anyone else) feel that there is inequality between the sexes? I know there are studies that prove that men still earn more than women and that 90 something percent of the CEOs are men.

I mean in your everyday life do you think you are overlooked for certain opportunities because you're a woman? Or are you viewed/perceived differently strictly because you're a woman?


i think perhaps the most distressing inequality is the way women are just generally sexualised, distressing because it's something that's almost impossible to get away from.

[FearandLoathing]

I understand that in theory, but I see very little of it in real life. I remember it from law school (long ago now)--a very small group who called themselves "womyn" because they didn't want "men" in their group's name. I thought that was insane.

Oh, man. I've so enjoyed all your posts that I've read since joining, and then I read this. The reason some feminists use the terms "wimmin" and "womyn" (there are others, too) is because the word "woman" means lesser than man (I don't know the exact definition; it's to that effect). Damn, I'd use the terms only I'm too lazy to change my writing habits :D.

Considering the context, it sounds like I'm trying to start a fight with you; I just thought I'd reply saying this 'cause I don't think the anti-men sentiment thing is necessarily correct. As I said, I've really enjoyed your posts.

[Documad]

Oh, man. I've so enjoyed all your posts that I've read since joining, and then I read this. The reason some feminists use the terms "wimmin" and "womyn" (there are others, too) is because the word "woman" means lesser than man (I don't know the exact definition; it's to that effect). Damn, I'd use the terms only I'm too lazy to change my writing habits :D.

Considering the context, it sounds like I'm trying to start a fight with you; I just thought I'd reply saying this 'cause I don't think the anti-men sentiment thing is necessarily correct. As I said, I've really enjoyed your posts.
Sorry! I have no idea what it means elsewhere, but that's what the members of that particular group told me. Now I wonder if they were pulling my leg. :(

[Documad]

men have penises, women have vaginas. i think most of the other differences are environmental.

oh, and inequality between the genders does go beyond the professional setting. no-one seems to notice it, or care about it anymore.

i've been described by people i know as a "militant feminist." i don't know why. i sometimes think my boyfriend is more of a feminist than i am.
Zount <3

Zorra, do other young women where you're from care about the issue? I went to a Le Tigre concert in Melbourne that was full of young women of "all lifestyles" and when Kathleen Hanna made very pointed comments about what she thinks is at stake in Australia, the crowd was pretty quiet. I couldn't tell if they were confused or what. I'm dying to see what the crowd here does in a couple of weeks. :)

The young women I know care very much. But I keep hearing that many young women do not. A lot of my social worker friends say that the young adults they work with SAY they're liberal and they have tattoos and piercings and they're all-out pan sexual, but that otherwise they have pretty conservative views based upon old-fashioned reasons. I hear that young people are more anti-choice today for instance. Where is that coming from?

The militant feminist thing puzzles me. I've never felt militant. I've never tried to crash a "males only" place. Well, I did crash a few male restrooms in my past, but that was more about intoxication and less about making a political statement. :) On the other hand, I'm sure happy that the men and women who came before me did make a fuss. I think it means that you don't always say what people want to hear.

[zorra_chiflada]

I think it means that you don't always say what people want to hear.

yeah, i think that is a big part of it. and i point out things that people say that may be considered "sexist" or degrading of women, even though they probably don't want to hear it

[Documad]

Ah Zorra, you give me hope. Keep saying what you think. (I'd say that even if I didn't agree with you.)

[zorra_chiflada]

Ah Zorra, you give me hope. Keep saying what you think. (I'd say that even if I didn't agree with you.)

oh, i will :)

[Documad]

I think that one of the by-products of talk radio is that feminist=crazy bitch. So when a woman raises a valid point about how she or someone else is treated, her criticism is automatically minimized. And some women are hyper-sensitive but the ones I know tend to have been victims of something nasty and I figure that being a little outspoken is healthy for them.

I've wondered about the non-employment stuff. I don't know how to even talk about it. I don't like being underestimated in that arena. :(


I tend to assume that women are overreacting and that there is another valid reason for their ill treatment. Sometimes I make big mistakes. Recently a woman in her 50s went in to buy a car. She called to tell me that she couldn't face going to another car lot because the place she had just been was bad and the men were really mean to her and very pushy and treated her badly because she was a woman. So I started thinking that she tends to be dramatic and that car salesmen are always assholes and it had nothing to do with her being female. I told her that people treat me like shit when I buy stuff and I'm not dressed up. She said she was dressed up. She told me they asked lots of personal questions and embarrassed her. I thought to myself that she is likely to have bad credit and she was probably reluctant to talk about it. She said they weren't those kinds of questions. They wanted details about her recent divorce and whether she lived alone. This went on for a while with me making up innocent explanations in my head until she started to talk about exactly what they said and where they touched her and how they touched her and it was all just awful and horribly creepy. She's my sister and I convinced her to report the dealership to the national. :o

[sam i am]

I think that one of the by-products of talk radio is that feminist=crazy bitch. So when a woman raises a valid point about how she or someone else is treated, her criticism is automatically minimized. And some women are hyper-sensitive but the ones I know tend to have been victims of something nasty and I figure that being a little outspoken is healthy for them.

I think one of the by-products of the media outside of talk radio is that conservative=crazy white male. So when a conservative raises a valid point about how they are traeted, their criticism is automatically minimized. And some conservatives are hyper-sensitive but the ones I know tend to have been victims of something nasty (like liberal bias or smear) and I figure that being a little outspoken is healthy for them.

Do you agree, Documad, or are you completely hypocritcal?

[sam i am]

I think it means that you don't always say what people want to hear.

Sounds like a conservative republican on these message boards to me :D

[zorra_chiflada]

I think one of the by-products of the media outside of talk radio is that conservative=crazy white male. So when a conservative raises a valid point about how they are traeted, their criticism is automatically minimized. And some conservatives are hyper-sensitive but the ones I know tend to have been victims of something nasty (like liberal bias or smear) and I figure that being a little outspoken is healthy for them.

Do you agree, Documad, or are you completely hypocritcal?

it goes both ways.
for example, i was recently reading a local university publication (which is supposed to be completely neutral) and i was reading an article written by a well-respected thinker. at the beginning of the article, there was a disclaimer that basically indicated "this person has left wing opinions, so do not take them seriously"

[Documad]

I don't want to go off on a tangent. I think the "conservative" question might be a nice topic for a different thread and that sam i am might enjoy starting one. I'm sure that's been discussed before but maybe not for a while.

I have never equated "conservative" with the goofballs running the Republican party today. I used to be a Republican and I'm both conservative and liberal (depends on the question and context). I'm not alone because all of the Republican politicians I worked for are no longer able to stomach their party.

My Oxford dictionary says that "conservative" means "holding traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion." I've said this here before and I'm sure others have too, but the crap Republicans have done seem activist and radical and not conservative. There's nothing conservative about running up a giant national debt for instance. I think the conservative label mostly applies to their religious ideals and I think their fundamentalist Christian doctrine does not belong in government (which is another tangent we've already done several threads on).

The supposed liberal bias of the media is also a topic for another thread and I'm sure you've all covered that many times. The media is owned by giant corporations who seem to mostly support the Republican party. Things like the gung-ho coverage of the early, sexy part of the most recent Iraq war and the lack of critical coverage of what's really going on now don't seem like liberal bias to me.

I welcome discussion of any of these topics in other threads. Using inaccurate labels is always bad. I'd love it if Bush would quit calling himself a conservative because I don't think he deserves the label.

[Documad]

Back to feminism. The Hilary Clinton thing bothers me. I didn't like that she was attacked early on for being a working woman and for having feminist friends. I think she should have been attacked for having poor judgment as an attorney, as a business woman, and for having no sense of humor. It's funny that talk radio considers her a militant feminist though because I can't imagine a militant feminist being married to Bill. I don't like being saddled with her. Although she appears to be a better Senator than I expected. I wish the talk of her running for higher office would just die. It's never going to happen and the talk helps the Republicans get their base all riled up.

[DroppinScience]

I used to be a Republican


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ah, just teasing you, Documad.

When you say Republican, I sure hope you mean the Eisenhower Republican types. I <3 Eisenhower!

Anyways, I am supremely impressed with you over at this board, Docu (you impressed me in Music and BF, but you've topped yourself now!). You're making me want to post more about politics and stuff like I used to. :)

[Documad]

In Minnesota, the two major parties were "Independent Republicans" and "Democratic Farmer Labor". I was an IR. The "independent" part used to mean something. I never voted for a Republican for president but I did for the other major state and federal offices. Pro-choice, socially liberal, but fiscally conservative city dwellers used to be welcome in the state Republican party. No more.

I still have a difficult time stomaching a lot of the DFL platform--they were historically beholden to agriculture and labor groups (as their name indicates) and many of their major candidates were anti-choice, but that's less of an issue today. The DFL also has a caucus system that has a knack for endorsing a lot of truly goofy candidates for major offices.

I didn't call myself a "Democrat" until a few years ago, and I still can't call myself a DFL'r. But I can't imagine voting for another Republican ever. There's just too much at stake. I would have never believed it, but I even campaigned for a couple of anti-choice Democrats in 2002 (In my defense, they were running against anti-choice Republicans :)).


Oh, and thanks DS!

[DroppinScience]

Any love for Eisenhower, though?

I know you weren't old enough to vote for him (I think ;) ), but he's truly the last good Republican president...

[Documad]

I think that Eisenhower did a nice job of making sure that nothing too exciting happened during his tenure and that was a good thing given what was happening at the time. But you know, he seemed fairly independent of his party (being a war hero and all), so I'm not sure how much of a Republican he was. I'm no expert on him. I'm sure people would say that he should have done more to support civil rights and that he was too reluctant on that account, but anyone in that job at that time would have been reluctant.

I'm also too young to have voted for Nixon, but I think there was a lot to like about him. And a lot to hate.

I like both of them better than JFK. :)

But you're going to take my feminist thread off on a tangent if people start discussing republican icons here. :p

[marsdaddy]

i think perhaps the most distressing inequality is the way women are just generally sexualised, distressing because it's something that's almost impossible to get away from. (y)

I've always considered myself a feminist and a liberal. I'm continually amazed at the lack of equality I see, daily. It's not just the $0.75 to the dollar earnings for the same job, or the treatment at the mechanic, or the sexualization...it's all of it. Not that the professional woman has it worse, but just about everyday I hear someone in business -- male and female -- refer to a woman boss as a bitch and hard to work for.

I am most distressed at the suburban mothers and young girls, dressed alike, with the hoochie sayings on their tank tops and asses, low slung velour sweats, and french manicured toe nails. Role models?!

[DroppinScience]

I like both of them better than JFK. :)

Now THAT hurt a LOT! :(

The only people better than JFK are FDR and Harry Truman. Eisenhower is tops, but JFK is the man. Nixon was an evil SOB who just happened to have some reasonable domestic policies here and there (Clean Air Act and such).

But no dissing of the man responsible for the Peace Corps. :p

[guerillaGardner]

I can say that based on the equality of women and men I must be a feminist, as I dislike people of both sexes equally. :)

[avignon]

Personally, I think that feminism isn't really a choice for most women. When your rights are being ignored, when you are being treated inequally, you pretty much have no choice but to actively fight to make it better.

[avignon]

(y)

I've always considered myself a feminist and a liberal. I'm continually amazed at the lack of equality I see, daily. It's not just the $0.75 to the dollar earnings for the same job, or the treatment at the mechanic, or the sexualization...it's all of it. Not that the professional woman has it worse, but just about everyday I hear someone in business -- male and female -- refer to a woman boss as a bitch and hard to work for.

I am most distressed at the suburban mothers and young girls, dressed alike, with the hoochie sayings on their tank tops and asses, low slung velour sweats, and french manicured toe nails. Role models?!
It's nice to see men who call themselves a feminist without any second thoughts or hesitations. It's also, unfortunately not very common where I live and work.

[Documad]

Not that the professional woman has it worse, but just about everyday I hear someone in business -- male and female -- refer to a woman boss as a bitch and hard to work for.
I hate this too, but the problem is that there are a lot of professional women who I've worked under who are bitches. I've also worked with a lot of male drama queens. I don't know whether people are less tolerant of female bosses or whether women just tend to vent in a less professionally acceptable way. I've noticed that secretaries (mine have always been female) seem to handle female bosses differently than male ones.

[Eccentric]

The reason some feminists use the terms "wimmin" and "womyn" (there are others, too) is because the word "woman" means lesser than man (I don't know the exact definition; it's to that effect). Damn, I'd use the terms only I'm too lazy to change my writing habits
Sorry to be off topic, but I have to drag this back up. Lots of people think that "woman" is a derogatory term, but it's totally not. It literally means "female human" not anything about being worth less than a man. But don't take my word for it! Allow my hero, Ryan North, to do the explaining for me (http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=551).

Anyways, great thread. I'd say more but I'm at work right now and it's quitting time in about two minutes.

[sam i am]

It's nice to see men who call themselves a feminist without any second thoughts or hesitations. It's also, unfortunately not very common where I live and work.

Here's your worst nightmare : a feminist and a conservative at the same time. :eek:

As a matter of fact, I would love to see a Conservative, Republican Woman President (and I'll bet $20 that happens before Hillary ever gets elected to the presidency!)

I don't care if someone is black or gay or a woman or a Native American or Hispanic, or whatever. I only care if their ideas mesh with mine and they follow that up with actions that move forward a Conservative, Republican agenda.

:cool: :confused:

[ms.peachy]

I hate this too, but the problem is that there are a lot of professional women who I've worked under who are bitches. I've also worked with a lot of male drama queens. I don't know whether people are less tolerant of female bosses or whether women just tend to vent in a less professionally acceptable way. I've noticed that secretaries (mine have always been female) seem to handle female bosses differently than male ones.
In my professional life, I've more often than not had female bosses. Kind of odd, considering I'm in the sciences and academia, which are generally pretty male dominated, but that's just how it's worked out.

I can't say as I have really noticed any difference that I would put down to 'male' or 'female'. They've all been different people, and some have been better at handling management responsibilities than others and such. But in the end to me that's just been part of their personalities as individuals really.

In my experience, I've certainly not seen anything to support that suggestion that "women tend to vent in a less professionally acceptable way". If I am going to hazard a guess, I would think it does have more to do with your other point of there being less tolerance and general respect for female superiors. Whilst there are no doubt many men (and women) who can work in a subordinate position to a strong and capable woman quite happily, there are certainly plenty of others who may go along day by day but are harbouring a resentment under the surface - either because as a man, he doesn't feel he should have to be under a woman's authority, or as a woman who is maybe less confident than the female boss, she may misfocus her own insecurity and jealousy onto the boss. (I think I've just done a really crap job of explaining that, but there is some painting going on in the office next to mine and I'm a bit whacked on fumes at the moment, sorry. Hopefully it does make some kind of sense.)

A great boss is a great boss and a shitty boss is a shitty boss, in the end.

[FearandLoathing]

Here's your worst nightmare : a feminist and a conservative at the same time. :eek:

As a matter of fact, I would love to see a Conservative, Republican Woman President (and I'll bet $20 that happens before Hillary ever gets elected to the presidency!)

I don't care if someone is black or gay or a woman or a Native American or Hispanic, or whatever. I only care if their ideas mesh with mine and they follow that up with actions that move forward a Conservative, Republican agenda.

:cool: :confused:

You do know what feminism is...don't you?

I can certainly see that with a fiscal conservative, but if you're a social conservative I have no idea what you're talking about. Social conservatism is about maintaining the 'old order'; hence victim-blaming, anti-abortion and, well, anti-woman stances.

Sorry to be off topic, but I have to drag this back up. Lots of people think that "woman" is a derogatory term, but it's totally not. It literally means "female human" not anything about being worth less than a man. But don't take my word for it! Allow my hero, Ryan North, to do the explaining for me (http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=551).

Guess I shoulda followed my view up with...well, facts. I suppose it remains that that's usually why people use the words, though. Thanks.

[sam i am]

You do know what feminism is...don't you?

I can certainly see that with a fiscal conservative, but if you're a social conservative I have no idea what you're talking about. Social conservatism is about maintaining the 'old order'; hence victim-blaming, anti-abortion and, well, anti-woman stances.

To answer your question : yes.

Social conservatives can be feminists too. I'm not sure what you mean by "victim-blaming," but I'll guess you mean that each person is repsonsible for their own actions?

You can be a feminist and be anti-abortion. Are women who are anti-abortion self-haters? My mother, who grew up in the 60's and is quite Liberal on a number of issues, is adamantly anti-abortion. She is a true feminist in the sense that she believes women who are unborn are entitled to the same right to life that is embodied in our Declaration of Independence.

Conservatives are not anti-woman. Look at the Reagan and Bush administrations : appointment of women to high offices, including the Supreme Court, the Secretary of State, etc. It's ridiculous to assume that any party would want to alienate half or more of the population (think of all those lost votes and sources of money!).

Conservatives come in all shapes, sizes, colors, genders (did you know there is a transgendered Republican bloc?), ages, etc. We are not monlithic : we are truly inclusive.

[marsdaddy]

You can be a feminist and be anti-abortion. Are women who are anti-abortion self-haters? My mother, who grew up in the 60's and is quite Liberal on a number of issues, is adamantly anti-abortion. She is a true feminist in the sense that she believes women who are unborn are entitled to the same right to life that is embodied in our Declaration of Independence.I'm not so sure you can honsetly be feminist and anti-abortion. (Though off topic, I'm also not so sure you can honestly be about smaller government and anti-abortion, either. Isn't the true definition of pro-choice that a woman has the ultimate decision-making power with regards to her body? Not religion or government. And this would seem to be a huge part of feminism. So if a feminist is anti-abortion, she's raising some other belief above her feminism.

Your mom, while I'm sure a great and admirable person, would be a true feminist imho if she believes women had the same rights as men. Right to life and Declaration of Independence are redundant.

BTW, if I remember my history correctly, part of why the feminist movement ran aground in the late 70's, early 80's is because of other groups of people who wanted to attach themselves to the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA). Specifically, I think gay rights became entangled with women's rights. This might be part of the negative connotation to feminism that exists today.

[Documad]

I think "conservative" is such a worthless political term today. I would think it meant smaller government and less debt and international isolationism. It seems to mean the opposite today. If my dictionary meaning of "holding traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion" is true then I don't think you can be a conservative feminist. Traditional attitudes, values, and religion are all about women having less rights than men.

I agree that a Republican woman has a better chance at attaining high office than a Democratic one. I think that an anti-choice woman would do really well in my state as long as she also did lots of interviews where she also pretended to be a great mom and cook.


I became politically aware around the time the women's movement was dying. I always heard that it died in true liberal fashion when it tried to make everyone happy and give everyone a place at the table. A lot of the original housewives who started the thing were worried about splitting household duties with their husbands and they couldn't connect with the lesbians. And black women felt that they had to make a choice between standing by black men and standing up for women (a lot of the bad press The Color Purple had was because of this). It also didn't help that the original leaders were mostly humorless. And the leaders of the backlash (who were affiliated with Jerry Falwell, if I remember correctly) scared lots of women with stories of how we would no longer have separate bathrooms and women would be drafted into military service, etc. The were certainly part of the crowd that was going after homosexuals.

Then later, there was this sense that it just wasn't needed anymore. That's the sense I get from a lot of young women.

[zorra_chiflada]

I'm not so sure you can honsetly be feminist and anti-abortion. (Though off topic, I'm also not so sure you can honestly be about smaller government and anti-abortion, either. Isn't the true definition of pro-choice that a woman has the ultimate decision-making power with regards to her body? Not religion or government. And this would seem to be a huge part of feminism. So if a feminist is anti-abortion, she's raising some other belief above her feminism.



uh yeah, you can't. any man who is a pro-lifer has some serious woman-hating issues.

[ledbatz]

Why is it that when a woman marries a successful man, it is said that she "no longer has to work", but when a man marries a successful woman, he cannot exercise the option to no longer work, or if he elects to do so, society labels him an outcast and leech who won't support his family. So long as this mentality prevails, friends, women will make less money than men. Or more aptly put, they will "earn" less. So long as the prevailing social perception remains that married women "don't have to work" because the husband is the breadwinner. Why would the men who have to make that money to keep their wives up hire a woman and pay her more, draining money out of his own family's bank account to do so? The fact is that one woman--the one working--isn't making the money because the other one--the non-working one--has to have it. Fair? Probably not, but neither is life.
---word up

[FearandLoathing]

To answer your question : yes.

Social conservatives can be feminists too. I'm not sure what you mean by "victim-blaming," but I'll guess you mean that each person is repsonsible for their own actions?

You can be a feminist and be anti-abortion. Are women who are anti-abortion self-haters? My mother, who grew up in the 60's and is quite Liberal on a number of issues, is adamantly anti-abortion. She is a true feminist in the sense that she believes women who are unborn are entitled to the same right to life that is embodied in our Declaration of Independence.

Ha ha ha...I think women who are anti-abortion don't give a fuck about women. Simple. If you care so little about someone you do not believe they should have full control over their bodies, you don't give a fuck. Uhm, that unborn argument thing about the poor little unborn women!!!!!!!!! is bullshit, and I can't be bothered to refute it further 'cause it's just so dumb.

Oh, and victim-blaming; asserting that women who wear short skirts deserve to be raped, that date-rape doesn't exist, that women being abused in relationships are idiots who should just leave, goddamn it etc.

Conservatives are not anti-woman. Look at the Reagan and Bush administrations : appointment of women to high offices, including the Supreme Court, the Secretary of State, etc. It's ridiculous to assume that any party would want to alienate half or more of the population (think of all those lost votes and sources of money!).

Wow, this whole post is hilarious. I suggest you look at this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,14259,1178692,00.html), it's not adequate, but I can't be fucked looking anything else up, quite honestly. If you think Reagan or Bush are feminists, there's something horribly wrong.

Conservatives come in all shapes, sizes, colors, genders (did you know there is a transgendered Republican bloc?), ages, etc. We are not monlithic : we are truly inclusive.

Er, if you don't think women deserve bodily integrity etc., you're not a feminist. You're not a feminist just 'cause you say so; you gotta have ideals that complement it.

[i'mcrafty]

It depends on what you mean by 'active'. I don't consider myself an activist, per se. But-
- for 3 years in the early 90's I volunteered 5 hours per week as an admin assistant for a feminist arts & political journal called Heresies
- I make monthly direct debits in support of NARAL and Planned Parenthood
- I have attended more marches than I can count or even remember
- professionally, I have participated in several school-based programs designed to promote careers in the sciences to girls and young women
- I've worked with a friend who is a program developer for Girl Scouts of America to create events and workshops in the science
- I work every day with teenage girls (and boys) who are considered "at risk" of falling throught the cracks of the educational system and generally strive to present a good role model of a capable, intelligent person.

So, I wouldn't say I've not done anything. Little by little, day by day.

i'm really beginning to like you! good for you! (y)

[zorra_chiflada]

i love how conservatives are like "oh we have respect for women. yeah! we do! look at condeleeza rice! she's a woman! see, we are good after all"

[FearandLoathing]

I've had liberal friends try that with me! As if this one woman- who sports the same conservative values as everyone else in the stupid party- somehow makes the government a bunch of goddamn carebears.

[Medellia]

i love how conservatives are like "oh we have respect for women. yeah! we do! look at condeleeza rice! she's a woman! see, we are good after all"
Or "We're not racist. We've appointed black people!"

[zorra_chiflada]

Or "We're not racist. We've appointed black people!"

"yeah! look, we have colin powell!! look at us!"

[ms.peachy]

Then later, there was this sense that it just wasn't needed anymore. That's the sense I get from a lot of young women.
Yeah that's a really wierd thing, right? this lack of awareness people, and young women in particular, seem to have about their own history. I've never really understood how any woman could think "hey, things are all OK now and we don't need to worry about all that old stuff". I mean, wtf? yes absolutely things are better for women now than they have ever been in history, at least in most western cultures, but fucking hell, this sense of complacency is just so ridiculous. Like, wake the fuck up.

[zorra_chiflada]

Yeah that's a really wierd thing, right? this lack of awareness people, and young women in particular, seem to have about their own history. I've never really understood how any woman could think "hey, things are all OK now and we don't need to worry about all that old stuff". I mean, wtf? yes absolutely things are better for women now than they have ever been in history, at least in most western cultures, but fucking hell, this sense of complacency is just so ridiculous. Like, wake the fuck up.

exactly (y)
a lot of women my age have said that they think feminism is "soooo uncool" and that it won't attract guys. idiots.

[Medellia]

I feel like we are doomed to return to the way things used to be before the world wakes up. I doubt we won't return to the days when women weren't allowed to vote, but things will get bad.

And as far as not attracting men, what a load of shit that is. I'm sure most men would prefer a woman who can take care of herself and actually has opinions about important issues.

[sam i am]

I doubt we won't return to the days when women weren't allowed to vote, but things will get bad.

And as far as not attracting men, what a load of shit that is. I'm sure most men would prefer a woman who can take care of herself and actually has opinions about important issues.

Does anyone realize that women could not vote in the US until 1920?

Or that the original Constitution of the US only allowed landowners to vote?

So, even women landowners (and there were few) couldn't vote?

I agree that real men do prefer women who can take care of themselves and have opinions about important issues.

As far as the "tokenism" that was discussed on the previous page, go do a google search under "republican woman" and you will see over 4 MILLION websites under that search. There are Republican women in office in EVERY SINGLE STATE in the US.

Now, if you are brave enough, do the same for black republicans, jewish republicans, gay republicans, etc.....Do you still believe in tokenism? Or are you ready to recant and acknowledge that there is a huge disparity in what you believe and what is true? :confused:

[sam i am]

RL=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,14259,1178692,00.html]this[/URL]Er, if you don't think women deserve bodily integrity etc., you're not a feminist. You're not a feminist just 'cause you say so; you gotta have ideals that complement it.

Interesting site. Over a year old and the focus is on the election in 2004, but a quite unbiased bit of reporting :rolleyes:

Anyhow, Bush won with a slim majority of women voters....

You are absolutely correct : I am not a feminist because I say so. I'm a feminist because I have absolutely no doubt that women are just as capable as men when given equal opportunity. I know my fiancee is probably smarter than I. I know my mother has a Master's degree in Psychology and has earned more over the years than my father.

I am proud of the accomplishments of women under the current administration and would not be a true feminist if I derogatorily dowgraded their acheivements by saying they were tokens.

[FearandLoathing]

Er...how about you address some of my points, instead of just blathering like an idiot?

I said the link was inadequate. It just astounds me that someone could possibly think Bush or Reagan were feminists. What the fuck?

Again, social conservatism is based in mainly maintaining the 'old order'. Seriously, there being conservative women doesn't make me believe conservatism= feminism. Not all women are feminists. Y'know, Ann Coulter is a woman. That hardly makes her a feminist.

You are absolutely correct : I am not a feminist because I say so. I'm a feminist because I have absolutely no doubt that women are just as capable as men when given equal opportunity. I know my fiancee is probably smarter than I. I know my mother has a Master's degree in Psychology and has earned more over the years than my father.

Acknowledging how much your mother earnt does not make you a feminist. Saying your fiancee is smarter than you are does not make you a feminist. If you believe that women shouldn't be left to the most basic decisions- like controlling their own body- you are not a feminist.

[sam i am]

Er...how about you address some of my points, instead of just blathering like an idiot?

Acknowledging how much your mother earnt does not make you a feminist. Saying your fiancee is smarter than you are does not make you a feminist. If you believe that women shouldn't be left to the most basic decisions- like controlling their own body- you are not a feminist.

Funny thing is...you don't get to decide if I am a feminist or not. Your single criteria for being a feminist denies feminism to the majority of women worldwide who do NOT agree that abortion is OK. Sorry to burst your bubble, you ANTI-feminist. :eek:

[FearandLoathing]

Funny thing is...you don't get to decide if I am a feminist or not. Your single criteria for being a feminist denies feminism to the majority of women worldwide who do NOT agree that abortion is OK. Sorry to burst your bubble, you ANTI-feminist. :eek:

I'm not even touching the majority of women thing, 'cause I have no idea if that's true and I sincerely doubt you do, but I think you can definitely draw lines with feminism. For instance, someone who doesn't think women should have the right to vote isn't a feminist. Likewise, someone who does not believe women should be able to control their bodies is not a feminist. You cannot be a misogynist and a feminist at the same time. :rolleyes:

[Documad]

Does anyone realize that women could not vote in the US until 1920?

Or that the original Constitution of the US only allowed landowners to vote?

So, even women landowners (and there were few) couldn't vote?
I'm not sure what this has to do with Medellia's post. I think she was saying that she feels we might be moving backwards in terms of female rights in some areas. She made clear that she didn't think women would lose the right to vote, but that they might lose other rights if they sleep too long.


But as for the history lesson: Harding was the first president women voted for. His administration didn't turn out so good. :p

And it wasn't just the Constitution that kept people from voting either. What percentage of black people in the southern US voted in say 1952?

[Medellia]

Does anyone realize that women could not vote in the US until 1920?

Or that the original Constitution of the US only allowed landowners to vote?

So, even women landowners (and there were few) couldn't vote?

I agree that real men do prefer women who can take care of themselves and have opinions about important issues.

As far as the "tokenism" that was discussed on the previous page, go do a google search under "republican woman" and you will see over 4 MILLION websites under that search. There are Republican women in office in EVERY SINGLE STATE in the US.

Now, if you are brave enough, do the same for black republicans, jewish republicans, gay republicans, etc.....Do you still believe in tokenism? Or are you ready to recant and acknowledge that there is a huge disparity in what you believe and what is true? :confused:
Like Documad said, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to the post you quoted. As for the tokenism issue, so what if there are gay, black, hispanic, female, jewish republicans? They can have their own opinions and vote how they want to. And if they are appointed, excellent. Good for them. But it is naive to think that just because someone appoints a few blacks and hispanics that they are one hundred percent all inclusive. And when accused of racism their protests of "Condoleeza Rice! Colin Powell! Alberto Gonzales!" don't seem totally genuine.
Y'know, Ann Coulter is a woman. That hardly makes her a feminist.
Heh, you know, she has actually said that one of the worst things this country has done was allowing women to vote.

[ledbatz]

Aye, a difficult and thorny issue. if one could have appointed to those cabinet positions a white male who supported black power and womens lib, would it have been better? And why does the fox guard the hen house, why couldn't the hen guard the rooster house?

Word up.

[Documad]

Heh, you know, she has actually said that one of the worst things this country has done was allowing women to vote.
Seriously? Ann said that?

She is such a freak show. She lies about history all the time and sells loads of books doing it. She also calls herself a "constitutional lawyer" and I've never figured out what that is. :p

[Medellia]

Seriously? Ann said that?

She is such a freak show. She lies about history all the time and sells loads of books doing it. She also calls herself a "constitutional lawyer" and I've never figured out what that is. :p
http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Quotes/Ann_Coulter

"I think [women] should be armed but should not [be allowed to] vote. No, they all have to give up their vote, not just, you know, the lady clapping and me. The problem with women voting -- and your Communists will back me up on this -- is that, you know, women have no capacity to understand how money is earned. They have a lot of ideas on how to spend it. And when they take these polls, it's always more money on education, more money on child care, more money on day care."

[zorra_chiflada]

^wow. now i believe the death penalty should be administered to some people. she should be stoned to death or lynched.

[Documad]

Ann's whole schtick is to say insane things that will piss people off and draw attention to herself. Like Camille Paglia, only worse.

It's just so tragic that TV has sunk so low that they would rather present a collection of babbling freak pundits than someone with a thoughtful opinion.