Why is it okay to use "Redskin" as a sports team's name?

[Medellia]

The Whiteskins, The Blackskins, Yellowskins, Greenskins. All of those would be deemed offensive. You just know the Martians would be pissed if there was a Greenskins. Every group would put up a fuss. So why is Redskins okay?

[TurdBerglar]

it's not like they're belittleing the native americans with the use of the word

[Documad]

American Indians are offended. As they were by the Tomahawk chop done by Atlanta Braves fans (including Jane Fonda). I can't believe that's still going on. All of the local high schools here that had Indian mascots changed them ages ago.

I'm reading the autobiography of Russell Means. He says things like "Joe was caught white-handed." I'm starting to get used to it. :)

[GetYourWarOn]

it's a racist name. i've been saying this for years. (n)

[GetYourWarOn]

you should get a look at the cleveland indians logo and then imagine if that was an african american instead.

[TurdBerglar]

i wouldn't give a fuck if there was a team called the honkeys and their mascot was me

[Medellia]

it's not like they're belittleing the native americans with the use of the word
Except it is. Again, if a team was called the Blackskins, do you not think that African Americans would be offended? And rightly so.

[TurdBerglar]

they're depicting thensleves as supperp warriors. am i wrong?

[GetYourWarOn]

i wouldn't give a fuck if there was a team called the honkeys and their mascot was me


that's becasue you are a part of the establishment and criticism towards your race doesn't mean much.

it's like if i started a boycott against bank of america, wtf would they care...but if that boycott was against some local bank with 2 or 3 branches they would probably notice.

[BionicEye]

My high school band: "The Four Skins"

[TurdBerglar]

im no part of any establishment. the large majority of white people want nothign to do with me

[Documad]

i wouldn't give a fuck if there was a team called the honkeys and their mascot was me
That's irrelevant. It's different when the majority belittles a minority group based upon a cultural or racial stereotype.

[Loppfessor]

Oh Jeebus....shit like this is what happens when people have too much time on their hands. Most Native Americans don't have a problem with it but the minority group of crybabies tries to ruin it for the bunch. I wouldn't give a shit if there was a team called the Tucson Mexicans or whatever with a sweet Bandito for a mascot.


In a semi-related story I got some protestor arrested at the Cleveland Indians home opener last season. My lil sis and I went to the game and as we were coming up to the gate there was a group of angry Indian protestors causing a ruckus. I could tell my sister was a little uneasy but I told her to be cool and just keep walking. Well this one dude gets right her face and yells something about being a honky at her. She's was like 14 years old and not bothering anyone and this asshole decided to pick on her. So I knock the sign out of his hand, push him down and say something along the lines of "Get the fuck away from her and get job bitch!" Anyway he starts to get up and come at me and some cops come running over. They wound up taking him away and we went inside and enjoyed the game.

[Documad]

they're depicting thensleves as supperp warriors. am i wrong?
I think that they don't want to be portrayed as blood thirsty savages anymore.

[Medellia]

they're depicting thensleves as supperp warriors. am i wrong?
Then why not call themselves the Warriors, or The Braves. But no, Redskins.

[TurdBerglar]

I think that they don't want to be portrayed as blood thirsty savages anymore.


there's a huge difference between that and warrior

[TurdBerglar]

Then why not call themselves the Warriors, or The Braves. But no, Redskins.


becuase "Redskins" is kickass


that's probably why. and that's what they were probably thinking when they named the team.

[Documad]

Most Native Americans don't have a problem with it but the minority group of crybabies tries to ruin it for the bunch.
What's your polling data on that. Because I don't know any who think it's cool. Minneapolis has been a center of Indian activism for ages btw.

P.S. I've been using the word Indian because that's what my friends in Minneapolis do. I'm not sure if that's a regional thing. Native Americans include people who aren't Indians.

[GetYourWarOn]

calling a native american a redskin is racist, but the reason they don't change the name is that the franchise is worth a billion dollars (no joke) and they sell a ton of merchandise.

[GetYourWarOn]

Oh Jeebus....shit like this is what happens when people have too much time on their hands. Most Native Americans don't have a problem with it but the minority group of crybabies tries to ruin it for the bunch. I wouldn't give a shit if there was a team called the Tucson Mexicans or whatever with a sweet Bandito for a mascot.


In a semi-related story I got some protestor arrested at the Cleveland Indians home opener last season. My lil sis and I went to the game and as we were coming up to the gate there was a group of angry Indian protestors causing a ruckus. I could tell my sister was a little uneasy but I told her to be cool and just keep walking. Well this one dude gets right her face and yells something about being a honky at her. She's was like 14 years old and not bothering anyone and this asshole decided to pick on her. So I knock the sign out of his hand, push him down and say something along the lines of "Get the fuck away from her and get job bitch!" Anyway he starts to get up and come at me and some cops come running over. They wound up taking him away and we went inside and enjoyed the game.


wetback. (n)

[Medellia]

Oh Jeebus....shit like this is what happens when people have too much time on their hands. Most Native Americans don't have a problem with it but the minority group of crybabies tries to ruin it for the bunch. I wouldn't give a shit if there was a team called the Tucson Mexicans or whatever with a sweet Bandito for a mascot.
How do you know? Have you TALKED to most Native Americans? I couldn't care less about nakes like The Chiefs, The Warriors, The Braves. Those names actually have some power. But Redskins is a racist term that was used against Native Americans. If there was a Blackskins I guarantee that they would be protested far more than people have protested any team called The Redskins.

[TurdBerglar]

how does anyone know what the population of native americans think?

[Documad]

there's a huge difference between that and warrior
Our culture has never portrayed Indians as talented warriors who should be respected. And I think that all these years after the "indian wars" ended, they would like to be depicted as something other than warriors.

We don't take other ethnic groups and use them as mascots. We use animals. You're equating a human being with a gopher or bluebird. That's bothersome.

[TurdBerglar]

how come no one gives a shit about the celtics?

[Medellia]

how does anyone know what the population of native americans think?
I'm sure there are a few that don't care either way, but most are offended by it. And why not? First their land is stolen by white people, then they are sent to some of the shittiest land in the country, they die off due to diseases white men gave them, and now there's sports teams that give themselves a name that is a derogatory term refering to their skin color. Then when they point it out they hear "Oh we're doing it out of our support for you. Shut up and quit complaining." If they're complaining, then how the fuck is it supportive?

[TurdBerglar]

it's just a sports team's name. it's not a big deal

[Documad]

how does anyone know what the population of native americans think?
Like I said, the Indians I know all are. I've been to a lot of Indian Law seminars and it usually comes up there. Some speaker always speaks out against it. (Some speaker also always explains that we have all the tribal names wrong.) These are usually educated people from Minnesota, where we have a sizeable Indian population. I've never heard one single person stand up and say "it doesn't bother me".

I'm not an Indian and I find it offensive so I don't really need polling data.

[Documad]

how come no one gives a shit about the celtics?
What is their mascot? Is it a drunken Irishman?

I don't know if anyone even knows what a Celtic is because no one pronounces it properly.

[TurdBerglar]

no it's a leprechaun


notre dame is the drunken brawling irishman

[Medellia]

it's just a sports team's name. it's not a big deal
Yeah. So maybe we should tell blacks to get over slavery. Or Jews to get over the Holocaust. Yeah, I know a stupid team name is nowhere near the level of either one of those, but it's still racism. But right, we should just get over it.

[Loppfessor]

wetback. (n)


Meh, I've heard worse...and you guys are right I haven't done an official survey or anything but perhaps that's a project I'll have to take on once I've accomplished everything else on my "to do" list.



ps if your point a that using racial slurs is wrong, perhaps you might want to get your point across in a way other than using racial slurs

[TurdBerglar]

the guys that named the team must of thought the term redskin was something to be proud off. i've never heard of a franchise nameing itself something very purposely demeaning towards itself. they didn't mean any harm.

[DroppinScience]

P.S. I've been using the word Indian because that's what my friends in Minneapolis do. I'm not sure if that's a regional thing. Native Americans include people who aren't Indians.

I think that's really up to the individual Native American what their preference is. Some may call themselves "Indian," others not.

In Canada, we more often use the terms "Natives" or "Aboriginals" or even "First Nations."

I'm still unsure why we still say "Indian" to an extent (even among the "Indians" themselves). It's a wholly inaccurate term. You guys are NOT from India. It was all Columbus' mistake anyways. :rolleyes:

[Medellia]

the guys that named the team must of thought the term redskin was something to be proud off. i've never heard of a franchise nameing itself something very purposely demeaning towards itself. they didn't mean any harm.
Then why when the people they named themselves after say they don't like it, would they say "We're being supportive of you, so quit whining about it"? And yeah, I have actually heard that. There is a high school here in Tulsa, Okla-fucking-homa that use the Redskins as their mascot, and when people complianed a father of a student there actually said that. So we shouldn't be offended because they are being supportive, but when we are offended, we should just suck it up and gt over it? Right.

[Medellia]

I think that's really up to the individual Native American what their preference is. Some may call themselves "Indian," others not.

In Canada, we more often use the terms "Natives" or "Aboriginals" or even "First Nations."

I'm still unsure why we still say "Indian" to an extent (even among the "Indians" themselves). It's a wholly inaccurate term. You guys are NOT from India. It was all Columbus' mistake anyways. :rolleyes:
I really hate the term "Native American". Everyone born here is Native American. Even though it's an inaccurate name, I actually prefer Indian. And while I don't know this for a fact, I am fairly certain that most people truly offended by the use of "Indian" (aside from actual Indians of course) are people with less than 10% Indian/Native American/Aboriginal/whatever blood.

[TurdBerglar]

we should just suck it up and gt over it? Right.


yes

it's incredibly silly to get worked up over it. has it caused any harm more than normal?

[Documad]

I think that's really up to the individual Native American what their preference is. Some may call themselves "Indian," others not.

In Canada, we more often use the terms "Natives" or "Aboriginals" or even "First Nations."

I'm still unsure why we still say "Indian" to an extent (even among the "Indians" themselves). It's a wholly inaccurate term. You guys are NOT from India. It was all Columbus' mistake anyways. :rolleyes:
All the legal stuff is called "Indian" and granted that was all historical and named by the federal government, like the Bureau of Indian Affairs. In our state, we classify them as Indians and have the Indian Child Welfare Act and Indian Law for instance. A lot of white liberals here say "Native Americans" but the political movement that had a big chapter here was AIM -- the American Indian Movement. Russell Means says Indian too.

BTW, my black friends say black, not African-American but white liberals say African-American. Now we have a lot of African residents who aren't American which makes it difficult too. :)

[DroppinScience]

I really hate the term "Native American". Everyone born here is Native American. Even though it's an inaccurate name, I actually prefer Indian. And while I don't know this for a fact, I am fairly certain that most people truly offended by the use of "Indian" (aside from actual Indians of course) are people with less than 10% Indian/Native American/Aboriginal/whatever blood.

But what about the people actually FROM India? I know we tend to say "East Indian," but still, this whole thing emerged because Columbus had questionable navigational skills and 500 years later, we still haven't corrected it? Puh-leeeze.

[Medellia]

yes

it's incredibly silly to get worked up over it. has it caused any harm more than normal?
So, if there was a team that named themselves after another racist term, should the group it was named after just sit back and take it?

[Documad]

But what about the people actually FROM India?
I call them "Indians from India." :D

[Loppfessor]

All the legal stuff is called "Indian" and granted that was all historical and named by the federal government, like the Bureau of Indian Affairs. In our state, we classify them as Indians and have the Indian Child Welfare Act and Indian Law for instance.



Don't forget Indian Burns....them shits hurt man!

[TurdBerglar]

So, if there was a team that named themselves after another racist term, should the group it was named after just sit back and take it?


most americans probably don't even know that or consider redskin to be a rascist term. you don't hear it very much in life. and if when the average american does it's probably in reference to the team. look what is happening to the term "nigger".

[Medellia]

But what about the people actually FROM India? I know we tend to say "East Indian," but still, this whole thing emerged because Columbus had questionable navigational skills and 500 years later, we still haven't corrected it? Puh-leeeze.
I know. I can understand why they would be offended by the way Indian is used here.

[Medellia]

most americans probably don't even know that or consider redskin to be a rascist term. you don't hear it very much in life. and if when the average american does it's probably in reference to the team. look what is happening to the term "nigger".
Right, but if "nigger" was used as a team name and blacks got offended by it, they would understand. Why is it so hard to understand when Indians say that they are offended by it?

[Medellia]

BTW, my black friends say black, not African-American but white liberals say African-American. Now we have a lot of African residents who aren't American which makes it difficult too. :)
Heh. I was talking about this once with a woman I used to work with and she told me that she and everyone in her family described themselves as black and they hate it when white people keep coming up with new PC names for the different races. she said "Black History Month was named that by a black man, so that's a good enough reason for me."

[TurdBerglar]

you know what?


that fuckn' leperchuan offends me and my culture. AND THEY PRONOUNCE THE NAME OF MY ANCESTORS WRONG. im gonna go and complain!

[Documad]

Don't forget Indian Burns....them shits hurt man!
Yeah, you really forget how many negative things in our culture were based upon some derogatory stereotype until you start making a list.

Like Russell Means changing it to "white-handed". It never occurred to me that "red-handed" might be based in a racial slur. My mom was big on minority rights and so I knew not to say "Indian-giver" but that was a common childhood taunt when I was little.

[Medellia]

you know what?


that fuckn' leperchuan offends me and my culture. AND THEY PRONOUNCE THE NAME OF MY ANCESTORS WRONG. im gonna go and complain!
GOOD! DO IT!

[TurdBerglar]

no, i got to work tomarrow

[Medellia]

Pffft, well you suck at the whiny, bleeding heart, do-gooder role.

[TurdBerglar]

well i got better things to expend my energy on

[Medellia]

well i got better things to expend my energy on
I'm probably going to hate myself for this but, what better things do you have to do?

[TurdBerglar]

jerkoff

[Loppfessor]

^ Ha....this is me exactly 1 mile away seeing that coming

[Medellia]

Yeah, I knew it. There really was no point in asking I guess.

[TurdBerglar]

im just giveing you what you wanted

[Loppfessor]

I still think it's pretty hilarious that the Washington Bullets changed their name to the Wizards cus Bullets sent the wrong message or something...

[TurdBerglar]

yeah, that's the lamest name in the nba. fuckn' pussy ass wizards

[Medellia]

im just giveing you what you wanted
*barf*

[TurdBerglar]

hey what ever makes you hot



im willing to play along



*shits*

[Medellia]

I still think it's pretty hilarious that the Washington Bullets changed their name to the Wizards cus Bullets sent the wrong message or something...
Yeah, that's dumb. If I was a wizard I would boycott them just because it's sooooo lame. But I'm not a wizard, so I'll boycott them because basketball sucks. They are a basketball team, right? :o

[Loppfessor]

yeah, that's the lamest name in the nba. fuckn' pussy ass wizards


I dunno the Jazz might have em beat....especially since they've been in Utah for so many years now

[Medellia]

hey what ever makes you hot



im willing to play along



*shits*
Sorry turdy, I'm not into shit fetishes.

[TurdBerglar]

I dunno the Jazz might have em beat....especially since they've been in Utah for so many years now


i don't know. jazz is a beter represention of basketball than fuckn' wizards. although both are bad representations

[TurdBerglar]

Sorry turdy, I'm not into shit fetishes.


you've tried too, huh?

[Medellia]

you've tried too, huh?
NO!!! Actually, I did have this conversation with someone yesterday and we were both pretty disgusted by just the idea of it.

PS-Too much information.

[ms.peachy]

I find this topic sort of ironic, in that when I first moved here to England I found it shocking that most people here refer to Native Americans as "Red Indians" and still use the term "oriental" to describe people from the far East.

[Tone Capone]

I find this topic sort of ironic, in that when I first moved here to England I found it shocking that most people here refer to Native Americans as "Red Indians" and still use the term "oriental" to describe people from the far East.

I thought that was strange too...

[RobMoney]

Isn't "Orangemen" a term used to describe a Protestant Englishman?

The Syracuse Orangemen

[adam_f]

Originally posted by Medellia
The Whiteskins, The Blackskins, Yellowskins, Greenskins. All of those would be deemed offensive. You just know the Martians would be pissed if there was a Greenskins. Every group would put up a fuss. So why is Redskins okay?

Whiteskins? That's not offensive in the least.

Syracuse actually dropped the 'men' part and now they're just the Syracuse Orange. True story.

I hate when people read too far into sports teams names. It makes me feel as though I should care when I couldn't give two shits.

[franscar]

I know it's much more boring, but giving everyone generic "City" or "United" endings stops a lot of arguments. That way the arguments can be about other, more important stuff, like how much the Packers suck. Or something.

[ms.peachy]

You know what I learned today? That the Brooklyn Dodgers got their name from the fact that people in the borough used to have to 'dodge' the sparks coming off the live trolley tracks back in the days before alternating current electricity.

Only vaguely relevant I know, but I just read that like a few hours ago and I'm still kinda fascinated by it.

[HEIRESS]

I was walking home from the gym on tuesday and two teenagerish kids were all drunken and leaning against the glass window of the local movie store and one of them cat called to me and yelled something like "hey baby girl, come on over here"
I just turned and half smiled and kept going

so the one started yelling out "WHAT IS IT BECUASE IM STATUS I GETS NO NATIVE LOVE HUH PFFFFFFFT"

this made me really sad because I didnt have my glasses on and couldnt even tell if they were native or not because they werent close up

my first boyfriend in highschool was about 3/4ish native, so fuck those kind of comments

but uh yeah, you dont say indian here
you just dont

and if I were native Id be allllll over this NYM (http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2003/12/277483.jpg)
I think id have fun at a guerilla roadblock party

[Qdrop]

anything can offend someone if you ask enough people.

the problem with a PC country is that people think they have a "right" not to be offended.
like it's unamerican to be offended by something or anything.

now, of course I and most people think it unethical and just plain mean to try and offend someone or a group in particularly vulgar or dispicapal way.

you draw lines, and look at the history behind it.
calling someone a "nigger" is vile because it conjurs up a despicable past of slavery, civil rights abuse, violence, etc. that term carries all of that with it.
and it carries the very real connotation of racism with it.
i can see protesting the OFFENSIVE use of the word "nigger"

but that DOES NOT imply that we should carry this sentiment to the farthest reaches and protest anyone who offends anyone.
it is still NOT automatically bad to offend someone...in fact, much of our freedom of speech is built on offending someone, somewhere. it's a fundamental of free speech to BE ABLE to offend someone.

it just comes down what the real history behind that "offence" comes from as far as what the level of public outcry and activism should be.

if "THE UNTIED FEDERATION OF OBESE AMERICANS" wants to protest "Shallow Hal" because it offends obese people....they can go fuck themselves.

not every "offense" is equal....and it certainly shouldn't be under the law.

now "Redskins"? well, it is pretty tantamount to "nigger" in ever aspect.
if there truly is a mass of people that find it offensive, i guess they have a case. it doesn't have to be a majority (as our legal system is set up to defend the minority as well)...but it should be more than just a handfull of native americans who CLAIM to be speaking for all native americans.

now as far as the tomahawk chop and shit....come on! how is that offensive?
how is that anymore offensive then a bagpipe player at an event, or Austin
Powers saying "judo chop" in his movie.
i mean, draw the line....

[Beckalina]

my dad has red skin and he says it doesn't offend him, so its ok

[Loppfessor]

^ Well put Q

[JBernas]

how does anyone know what the population of native americans think?

Ok...I'm Native American...I don't live on a reservation or anything, but my great grandmother on my dad's mom's side was full blooded and his dad's mother was half....not sure what that makes me? Anyway, people today need to lighten the fuck up. I am not at all offended by a team name, mascot or anything else depicting Native Americans....I have more constructive things to do with my time then whine about shit like this. I don't think having a Native American as a team mascot depicts us as "savages"....please.

This reminds me of the South Park episode where they had to take everything offensive out of the school holiday play and they wound up with kids in black suits doing interpretive dance (they took down the lights because it was offensive to epilepitcs :) )

People will search for anything to be offended by. Now, I have to go and actually get some IMPORTANT stuff done. BTW....I am a Redskins fan....GO SKINS!

[Loppfessor]

^ I nominate that for one of the best posts ever!

[Qdrop]

People will search for anything to be offended by.

exactly.

it makes them feel important.


everybody wants a cause....

[Dr Deaf]

I'm reading the autobiography of Russell Means. He says things like "Joe was caught white-handed." I'm starting to get used to it. :)

i thought that term (caught red handed) implied a dye pack of sorts had exploded; making the culprit easy to point out.

dye packs are loaded into bags of money during a robbery and also snapped onto expensive clothes in retail outlets. even the glass bar that breaks on a fire-alarm can contain red dye.

[Documad]

i thought that term (caught red handed) implied a dye pack of sorts had exploded; making the culprit easy to point out.

dye packs are loaded into bags of money during a robbery and also snapped onto expensive clothes in retail outlets. even the glass bar that breaks on a fire-alarm can contain red dye.
I thought it was like you got burned from the stuff being hot. I'm thinking that Russell Means was yanking his readers' chains. :p

I have always thought that the LA Lakers should have to change the name of Minneapolis's old team. We have lakes, but LA? Get real!

[Beckalina]

i thought caught red handed came from macbeth, ie caught with blood on the hands


am i being naive?

[Yeti]

I suggest that your team name be the Redskin Potatoes or the Negra Modelos.

My fantasy team's name is the Double Wide Trailers. They live on Pabst Blue Ribbon and Pork Rinds.

[cosmo105]

you know, i too have a great deal of Native American in me. i haven't gotten my card yet, but i'm a direct descendant of a Cherokee and could easily become a member of the Cherokee Nation. my grandparents still own reservation land.

the whole team names thing...sure, it's stupid, sure it's demeaning, and sure, it needs to be changed.

but what i'd rather see changed are the way Native Americans are TREATED in this country. let's have a campaign to change the miserable poverty rate in their society and the way the gov't has always given them the shaft, and leave the team names to the people that actually care about them - the sports fans.

[JBernas]

My fantasy teams name is the Double Wide Trailers. They live on Pabst Blue Ribbon and Pork Rinds.

Now that would be offensive to the "Rural Americans" or the economically challenged....PROTEST! :D

[Yeti]

I don't worry about hillbilly trailer people. They are too busy brushing their tooth.

[bigblu89]

Would the Washington Casino Owners be a better name?

Do you think guys like Shawn Bradley and Yao Ming take offense to the name New York Giants?

[Rock]

yeah, that's the lamest name in the nba. fuckn' pussy ass wizards
They are the Wizards when they lose, and the Bullets when they win.

[DroppinScience]

I find this topic sort of ironic, in that when I first moved here to England I found it shocking that most people here refer to Native Americans as "Red Indians" and still use the term "oriental" to describe people from the far East.

Weird, my Dad refers to Asians as "Orientals" all the time. In fact, a great deal of his staff in his dental office (he's a dentist) are Asians themselves and I've never heard of them getting offended.

I only really say "Orientals" if the terms "Asians" is being too vague (i.e. I wanna make sure I'm referring to people from China, Japan, etc. and NOT people from India, Pakistan and others) and my Asian friends have never had a problem with me saying "Oriental" (the handful of times I'd actually say it).

I'm assuming it's different for Asians in the U.S. vs. Asians in Canada? :confused:

[ToucanSpam]

I think people should chill the hell out. It's a name. No one is making fun of anyone. The Braves, Indians, and Redskins all are excellent organizations with very clean history. If anything, I think of the names as signs of respect for the people who lived in North America before Europeans arrived.

[Rock]

....Redskins all are excellent organizations with very clean history.
Dexter Manley was far from clean.

[ToucanSpam]

Dexter Manley was far from clean.
Can you elaborate?

[Rock]

Dex used to play for the skins and was all about fancy things going up his nose. A lot of people around these here parts were pissed off about Dexter's habit and felt that he was giving his team a bad name.

[ToucanSpam]

Dex used to play for the skins and was all about fancy things going up his nose. A lot of people around these here parts were pissed off about Dexter's habit and felt that he was giving his team a bad name.
Well. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bushel.

[Rock]

Well. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bushel.
Of course not....I was just saying it to say it.

[ToucanSpam]

Of course not....I was just saying it to say it.
And I appreciate that completely. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.....

[ms.peachy]

Weird, my Dad refers to Asians as "Orientals" all the time. In fact, a great deal of his staff in his dental office (he's a dentist) are Asians themselves and I've never heard of them getting offended.

I only really say "Orientals" if the terms "Asians" is being too vague (i.e. I wanna make sure I'm referring to people from China, Japan, etc. and NOT people from India, Pakistan and others) and my Asian friends have never had a problem with me saying "Oriental" (the handful of times I'd actually say it).

I'm assuming it's different for Asians in the U.S. vs. Asians in Canada? :confused:
Well, I can only speak from my own experience. What I was taught is that it is not appropriate to refer to people as being Oriental. If you are talking about an object, i.e. an oriental rug, an oriental vase, etc., it is acceptable, but that in the context of describing a person, it is demeaning and disrespectful.

I would point out that just because you've never 'heard of them getting offended' doesn't mean that they aren't. Maybe they're not. But maybe they are. How would you know?

[Medellia]

I think people should chill the hell out. It's a name. No one is making fun of anyone. The Braves, Indians, and Redskins all are excellent organizations with very clean history. If anything, I think of the names as signs of respect for the people who lived in North America before Europeans arrived.
Okay, if it was done out of respect and Indians were offended by it, then why wouldn't they change it? They want to be respectful, right? How is it respect to say "stop being offended"?

Oh and to whoever asked for a Native American's opinion on it, look no further than the thread starter.

[sam i am]

Why not?

[Medellia]

Why not?
Why is it not offensive? Okay, tell me why it's NOT offensive.

[ToucanSpam]

Okay, if it was done out of respect and Indians were offended by it, then why wouldn't they change it? They want to be respectful, right? How is it respect to say "stop being offended"?

Oh and to whoever asked for a Native American's opinion on it, look no further than the thread starter.
I have yet to hear of a serious outcry from the Native American's to change the names. Don't send me a link with a petition of anything less that 10000 people. A professional sports team is not going to change it's name because 10000 people think it's offensive. The mentality of the owners is that unless those 10000 fans but 10000 tickets to every home game, then they mean nothing.

[Medellia]

I have yet to hear of a serious outcry from the Native American's to change the names. Don't send me a link with a petition of anything less that 10000 people. A professional sports team is not going to change it's name because 10000 people think it's offensive. The mentality of the owners is that unless those 10000 fans but 10000 tickets to every home game, then they mean nothing.
First off, I'm not talking about JUST the professional team. I'm talking about high school and college teams also. (http://www.tolerance.org/teens/stories/article.jsp?p=0&ar=129) Second, I'm pretty sure Natives are offended by it. (http://www.main.nc.us/wncceib/COstateboard6502.htm) And third, you still never said how it is respect to tell someone to shut up and like it when they are offended by something that is supposedly a symbol of respect.

[GetYourWarOn]

By Karlyn Barker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 16, 2005; Page B01

Native American groups won another chance yesterday to challenge trademarks covering the name and logo of the Washington Redskins, which the groups say disparage millions of people...



the rest of the article is here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071501700.html

[cosmo105]

hahah symbol of respect? hahahaha

BULLSHIT (http://www.alamoflag.com/alamoflag/Images/SportFlags/mlb/58301_full.jpg)

[cosmo105]

I have yet to hear of a serious outcry from the Native American's to change the names. Don't send me a link with a petition of anything less that 10000 people. A professional sports team is not going to change it's name because 10000 people think it's offensive. The mentality of the owners is that unless those 10000 fans but 10000 tickets to every home game, then they mean nothing.
seeing as how you would really know everything about this and all

[GetYourWarOn]

seeing as how you would really know everything about this and all


if there is one person who is qualified to speak on behalf of the native american population it's toucanspam. this much i know.

[DroppinScience]

I would point out that just because you've never 'heard of them getting offended' doesn't mean that they aren't. Maybe they're not. But maybe they are. How would you know?

I'm not at his office everyday, but the vast majority of his staff are Asians and he has excellent relations with them. They appreciate my dad and my dad appreciates them. If they had a problem with my dad's usage of the term, I don't see why they wouldn't have said anything.

As for my own Asian friends, if they've ever been offended by my saying "Oriental" (which is actually very seldom), I'd expect them to pipe up and tell me that it's wrong.

I get the feeling that it'd be news to THEM that "Oriental" is presumably "offensive" to them.

[ms.peachy]

I'm not at his office everyday, but the vast majority of his staff are Asians and he has excellent relations with them. They appreciate my dad and my dad appreciates them. If they had a problem with my dad's usage of the term, I don't see why they wouldn't have said anything.

As for my own Asian friends, if they've ever been offended by my saying "Oriental" (which is actually very seldom), I'd expect them to pipe up and tell me that it's wrong.

I get the feeling that it'd be news to THEM that "Oriental" is presumably "offensive" to them.
Well listen. I don't know who you know or how they feel or whatever, so I can't speak for them.I can only tell you what I was taught was appropriate and what isn't.

Here's some info I found at websters.com when I went and had a look to see how the word "oriental" is denotated:
Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental meaning “eastern”is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in 'the first Oriental to be elected from the district') it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.

Hopefully that clarifies what I am saying about its use in contemporary culture.

[Loppfessor]

hahah symbol of respect? hahahaha

BULLSHIT (http://www.alamoflag.com/alamoflag/Images/SportFlags/mlb/58301_full.jpg)


Whatever bitch, Chief Wahoo is the man!

[ToucanSpam]

You people.


First off, I never said I was the ultimate authority on Native Americans. I'm not their leader, I don't even know the names of any more than maybe 5 or 6 tribes. I never claimed that my opinion represents anyone else's but mine, I only wished to try to point out the way the baseball teams view the idea of changing the names of their history rich teams.

Of course I can see why someone would get offended by the logos and the names. I would probably be irate if someone blew up my face, made it cartoonish, then used it as a logo.

Cosmo, once again you find your way out of your sewer and attempt to humiliate me. Please give this up. If you have nothing to add, which you did not this time, refrain from speaking to me. I really don't want to deal with you anymore. I've asked you once now, please leave me alone, and if you have nothing to say about something other than some snotty comment, just bite your tongue. Thank you.

Medellia. I didn't mean that the NA should just 'shut up and stop being offended'. If something bothers you enough then by all means speak out. Unfortunetly for the NA, professional sports teams that make millions and millions a year are not going to change their look. Sadly, there just is not enough support to change them. If and when there is, I hope that everyone can be satisfied with the result. I thought about this before when I was a kid. I was reading a book about Cal Ripken and Greg Maddux and the last page on the book said that if you had any questons or concerns about the names 'Atlanta Braves' or 'Cleveland Indians', that you could write in to this adress printed in the back fo the book. It got me thinking for a while, and I figured that if it came to a point where people were so upset about it, and it was time to change the logo or the name, maybe it would be a good idea if representatives from both the protesting side and the organization sat down and designed a name and logo that would satisfy both MLB and the team, and the NA and their supporters.

Also, if there are people upset about the Braves and Indians, how could there not be problems with the Angels? Not that I'm trying to change the subject, but wouldn't their name cause an ewual amount of controversy? Where do we draw the line that seperates the acceptable and unacceptable?

[cosmo105]

i'm sure angels are really upset about the fact that someone's using their good name and objectifying their heritage and turning it into a franchise...

[Documad]

Well, I can only speak from my own experience. What I was taught is that it is not appropriate to refer to people as being Oriental. If you are talking about an object, i.e. an oriental rug, an oriental vase, etc., it is acceptable, but that in the context of describing a person, it is demeaning and disrespectful.
No one says "oriental" when talking about people where I live. What Ms. Peachy says is correct as far as people vs. objects. And I know it doesn't count for anything, but my Asian friends (all well educated) feel strongly about this. They won't correct you, but they'll tell me later that you're a dumbshit.

DS, It could be that it hasn't come to your part of Canada yet. It could also be that your dad is the boss and if he's an otherwise good guy they're willing to overlook it. Your employer is really the last person you're going to have an open discussion with on this issue.


My grandma described black people as "colored" until the day she died, no matter how much nagging we did. She never once said it in a demeaning tone and I don't believe that in her heart she ever thought they were inferior. She went to a church with a sizable black population and she had taught Sunday school to generations of black kids over decades and she LIVED the true Christian ethic day in and day out, so the black people in her small community knew that she was just old and that her choice of words didn't mean anything. Grandma also refered to rural white people as "hillbillies," but she said "hillbillies" in a way that indicated they were inferior and told stories about them. Go figure. My favorite thing is that she called strange people "queer" -- "he's a queer old man". My mom was always shocked and telling her not to say that and it puzzled me for a long time because mom wouldn't explain it to me. She just said it was a "bad" word. :p

[ToucanSpam]

i'm sure angels are really upset about the fact that someone's using their good name and objectifying their heritage and turning it into a franchise...
That wasn't my point. Religious people may be offended by having a baseball team named the Angels.

[TAL]

I heard Gandalf is upset with the Bullets changing their name.

[ToucanSpam]

I heard Gandalf is upset with the Bullets changing their name.
He should be.

[TurdBerglar]

what about the Spartans, HUH?. there's numerous teams named after them. it's probably one of the most popular highschool team names. but noooooooooooo, nobody says shit about the spartans.

[cosmo105]

probably because none of them are around to be offended by it.

[TurdBerglar]

well i don't see any native americans here getting pissed either

[cosmo105]

here as in the board? or here as in this country? because, uh lots of native americans are pissed about it. trust.

[TurdBerglar]

no the board

[cosmo105]

probably because there aren't a whole hell of a lot of full-blooded native americans on here?

as i said earlier, i have a great deal of Cherokee in me on my mom's side and my family has owned reservation land for generations, and i think it's demeaning and offensive to use team names like that. but i don't really consider myself Native American, so i'm not personally offended by it.

[TurdBerglar]

so if no native americans existed, no one would care anymore?

[ToucanSpam]

so if no native americans existed, no one would care anymore?
If no NA existed, the teams would be named something else. Something I'm sure someone else would piss and moan about.

[cosmo105]

so if no native americans existed, no one would care anymore?
hrm. good point. the thing is, the spartans were around a couple thousand years back. native americans are around right now, and have a history of being culturally and socially given the shaft. it's yet another blow to a people that deserve a lot more respect than they are given.

[TurdBerglar]

If no NA existed, the teams would be named something else. Something I'm sure someone else would piss and moan about.


YEAH


those damn Spartans! :mad:

[TurdBerglar]

i have always viewed indians as nobel and proud people. and the only way i have aquired these views is through society. i have never met any indians(now that i think of it. i think my cousin's husband is indian). nameing a team after indians isn't meant to cuase any harm. and if something that wasn't purposely meant to harm you does that's your own damn problem. and that mascot is a MASCOT and a MASCOT only. a very large portions of mascots useally mock what ever it is they are depicting.

[ToucanSpam]

i have always viewed indians as nobel and proud people. and the only way i have aquired these views is through society. i have never met any indians(now that i think of it. i think my cousin's husband is indian). nameing a team after indians isn't meant to cuase any harm. and if something that wasn't purposely meant to harm you does that's your own damn problem. and that mascot is a MASCOT and a MASCOT only. a very large portions of mascots useally mock what ever it is they are depicting.
exactly.

[Documad]

YEAH


those damn Spartans! :mad:
Those Spartans were a pretty sick group of fucks.

I wouldn't want one of my teams named after them.

[TurdBerglar]

some tribes of indians were pretty brutal as well

[Medellia]

Cosmo, once again you find your way out of your sewer and attempt to humiliate me. Please give this up. If you have nothing to add, which you did not this time, refrain from speaking to me. I really don't want to deal with you anymore. I've asked you once now, please leave me alone, and if you have nothing to say about something other than some snotty comment, just bite your tongue. Thank you.
I knw you don't get along with cos, and although I have no problems with her I can understand why you sometimes get upset with her. You overreact a bit, but it's somewhat understandable. However, I think the link that she posted was relevant to the conversation. A logo like that of any other race would cause far more outrage among all races.
Medellia. I didn't mean that the NA should just 'shut up and stop being offended'. If something bothers you enough then by all means speak out. Unfortunetly for the NA, professional sports teams that make millions and millions a year are not going to change their look. Sadly, there just is not enough support to change them. If and when there is, I hope that everyone can be satisfied with the result. I thought about this before when I was a kid. I was reading a book about Cal Ripken and Greg Maddux and the last page on the book said that if you had any questons or concerns about the names 'Atlanta Braves' or 'Cleveland Indians', that you could write in to this adress printed in the back fo the book. It got me thinking for a while, and I figured that if it came to a point where people were so upset about it, and it was time to change the logo or the name, maybe it would be a good idea if representatives from both the protesting side and the organization sat down and designed a name and logo that would satisfy both MLB and the team, and the NA and their supporters.
Why do you keep talking about JUST professional teams? I've already said that I was talking about high school and colleges teams in addition to pro teams. Yet you STILL keep talking about professional teams. Also, I know that you personally did't mean that Indians should just shut up about it. But you did say that it was a symbol of respect. And there is nothing respectful about telling people to shut up when they feel that a supposed symbol of respect is offensive.

[ToucanSpam]

I knw you don't get along with cos, and although I have no problems with her I can understand why you sometimes get upset with her. You overreact a bit, but it's somewhat understandable. However, I think the link that she posted was relevant to the conversation. A logo like that of any other race would cause far more outrage among all races.

Why do you keep talking about JUST professional teams? I've already said that I was talking about high school and colleges teams in addition to pro teams. Yet you STILL keep talking about professional teams. Also, I know that you personally did't mean that Indians should just shut up about it. But you did say that it was a symbol of respect. And there is nothing respectful about telling people to shut up when they feel that a supposed symbol of respect is offensive.
Thanks for understanding.

No one said they should shut up. If there was a serious enough problem with the logos or names of ANY team, it would be dealt with. What more do you want? EVERY team in the world to change their names to Politcally correct terms? Why not call them the Cleveland Fairies? (they play like it :D ) Or better yet, why not name them Team A, Team B, Team C, etc. That way no one gets offended. Is that what you want?

If a name or logo bothers a group of people enough, it will get changed.

[Documad]

It just astounds me that people don't get how it could be offensive.

I get that you might think "fuck you, who cares if it's offensive" but I don't get how everyone can't see that it might be offensive. It's offensive to me and I don't believe I have an ounce of Indian/Native American blood.

P.S. In discussing a tribal law issue on Friday, I noticed that everyone was saying Indian. :rolleyes:

[cosmo105]

i don't think people will ever stop saying Indian. it's infuriating, isn't it?

[ToucanSpam]

It just astounds me that people don't get how it could be offensive.

I get that you might think "fuck you, who cares if it's offensive" but I don't get how everyone can't see that it might be offensive. It's offensive to me and I don't believe I have an ounce of Indian/Native American blood.

P.S. In discussing a tribal law issue on Friday, I noticed that everyone was saying Indian. :rolleyes:

I get that it could be offensive. If you are implying me.


Indians are from India.

[Medellia]

i have always viewed indians as nobel and proud people. and the only way i have aquired these views is through society. i have never met any indians(now that i think of it. i think my cousin's husband is indian). nameing a team after indians isn't meant to cuase any harm.
That's why I always thought it was silly when people complained about names like "Braves" "Warriors" or "Chiefs". Those actually sound noble and respectful. But "Redskins" and "Savages" (which was also quite a popular name) are derogatory terms for Native Americans. That's one reason why I just can't understand why people think it's okay to use them.
and if something that wasn't purposely meant to harm you does that's your own damn problem. and that mascot is a MASCOT and a MASCOT only. a very large portions of mascots useally mock what ever it is they are depicting.
I don't know what to say about any of this, honestly. All I can do is shake my head sadly.

[Medellia]

Thanks for understanding.

No one said they should shut up. If there was a serious enough problem with the logos or names of ANY team, it would be dealt with. What more do you want? EVERY team in the world to change their names to Politcally correct terms? Why not call them the Cleveland Fairies? (they play like it :D ) Or better yet, why not name them Team A, Team B, Team C, etc. That way no one gets offended. Is that what you want?

If a name or logo bothers a group of people enough, it will get changed.
Check my response to Turd. There are a couple of Indian-esque names that aren't so bad. And actually ARE a bit respectful (hopefully the mascots aren't too cartoonish though).

[ToucanSpam]

Something about the word 'Brave' doesn't offend me.

[TurdBerglar]

I don't know what to say about any of this, honestly. All I can do is shake my head sadly.


do you think the team's name was created to cuase harm?

[Documad]

I get that it could be offensive. If you are implying me.
No, I wasn't. I was talking about all the posts earlier. Sorry.

[Documad]

i don't think people will ever stop saying Indian. it's infuriating, isn't it?
Well, I say Indian, because my closest Indian friend does, and for the reasons I gave earlier. I've only heard white liberals say Native American, but I'd really like a definitive answer.

I try really hard to avoid saying either, and sometimes I switch back and forth which isn't at all satisfying.

[ToucanSpam]

No, I wasn't. I was talking about all the posts earlier. Sorry.
Really it's my fault for being a self centred whore, but ok, Apology accepted. :p

[Medellia]

do you think the team's name was created to cuase harm?
No, I don't think people actually set out to cause harm. But this part really bugged me:
a very large portions of mascots useally mock what ever it is they are depicting.
Reminded me of actors in blackface. Only in this case it's redface.

[TurdBerglar]

No, I don't think people actually set out to cause harm. But this part really bugged me:

then there's no point in getting mad. that's like getting mad at your friend becuase you got a haircut and your friend describe that haircut as resembling someone whom your friend considers quite attractive but whom you consider to be quite the douchebag. you have no reason to be mad at your friend, and telling your friend to "TAKE THAT BACK!". you may be mad but you shouldn't be.


and that mascot is a MASCOT. how do you feel about the other mascots that depict people?

[Medellia]

then there's no point in getting mad. that's like getting mad at your friend becuase you got a haircut and your friend describe that haircut as resembling someone whom your friend considers quite attractive but whom you consider to be quite the douchebag. you have no reason to be mad at your friend, and telling your friend to "TAKE THAT BACK!". you may be mad but you shouldn't be.
That made no sense whatsoever.
and that mascot is a MASCOT. how do you feel about the other mascots that depict people?
Such as? The only one I can think of is Trojans, and that's only because there's a high school near here that has that mascot. Last I heard Troy was destroyed. There is a slight difference between a group of people that no longer exist and a group that still does. Plus I'm pretty sure "Trojan" isn't a racial slur. Redskin is.

[TurdBerglar]

That made no sense whatsoever.

Such as? The only one I can think of is Trojans, and that's only because there's a high school near here that has that mascot. Last I heard Troy was destroyed. There is a slight difference between a group of people that no longer exist and a group that still does. Plus I'm pretty sure "Trojan" isn't a racial slur. Redskin is.


it made no sense? well it's like getting mad becuase you didn't appreciate a compliment.


well the celtics and notre dame like i said before.

[ToucanSpam]

The fighting Irish.

[Medellia]

it made no sense? well it's like getting mad becuase you didn't appreciate a compliment.
I said that I didn't think they started out to cause harm. However, that does not mean it was a compliment like many claim.
well the celtics and notre dame like i said before.
Right. I don't really know enough about the Celtics to comment on that one. As for Notre Dame, I can understand why Irish people might be offended by the Fighting Irish guy. But we're too busy drinking to notice. :D

Seriously, I don't really know enough about either one to form an opinion.

[Documad]

Isn't Notre Dame an Irish Catholic school? Because if they get off on being the fighting Irish, I'm not going to tell them they can't. If a black college picked a drunken Irish mascot, that would be a different story. :p

So when Indians own a controlling interest in a pro sports team or college, they can call themselves the redskins. How's that?

[TurdBerglar]

I said that I didn't think they started out to cause harm. However, that does not mean it was a compliment like many claim.

Right. I don't really know enough about the Celtics to comment on that one. As for Notre Dame, I can understand why Irish people might be offended by the Fighting Irish guy. But we're too busy drinking to notice. :D

Seriously, I don't really know enough about either one to form an opinion.


why would they(the team originators) not think it was a compliment. it's not like teams, especially multimillion dollar franchises, go around nameing themselves after lousy things.



so depicting a group of people with a leprechuan is different than depicting a group of people with a caricature?

[TurdBerglar]

So when Indians own a controlling interest in a pro sports team or college, they can call themselves the redskins. How's that?


that's hypocritical

[Yeti]

Dexter Manley was far from clean.

This reminded me of a game I was covering at the Vet (how sad that it is now the old Veteran's Stadium) in Philly. Dexter Manley emerged from the tunnel and was pelted by nursery rhyme books. It was funny yet sad at the same time.
I imagine most of Dexter's trouble was the result of illiteracy and his feelings of inadequacy. Anyway, I saw a very good story featuring him on Real Sports. His wife is a beautiful and supportive woman. He seems to be on the straight and narrow. He learned to read so he can now proudly recite Green Eggs and Ham.

[avignon]

This thread makes me tired.


It would take forever to respond to everything in this thread, so I won't. But, for those of you who argued that it is not such a big deal, well, then why not go ahead and change it? If for no other reason than as a sign of good faith and friendship, to improve relations with the American Indians. But I don't know of any Indian who actually thinks that will happen.

The thing is, nothing really surprises us any more. If they decide tomorrrow to rename the teams "Goddamn Savage Redskin Bastards", it wouldn't surprise us.

The thing is, we struggle to teach the young people in our culture to have pride in their heritage. We want them to know that they are not a joke or a mascot for the white people. It's hard enough to keep them from being swallowed up by this society that sees them only as "non-white". We want them to have a sense of their ancestors that isn't a cartoon.

Oh, nevermind. I can't make this come out right and I'm getting upset.



By the way, the people on my reservation are Tsistsistas; Cheyennes. We call each other and Indians from other tribes xamaevo'estaneo'o, which literally translates to "ordinary people". We mostly use the term Indian or American Indian in English.

[ToucanSpam]

This thread makes me tired.


It would take forever to respond to everything in this thread, so I won't. But, for those of you who argued that it is not such a big deal, well, then why not go ahead and change it? If for no other reason than as a sign of good faith and friendship, to improve relations with the American Indians. But I don't know of any Indian who actually thinks that will happen.

The thing is, nothing really surprises us any more. If they decide tomorrrow to rename the teams "Goddamn Savage Redskin Bastards", it wouldn't surprise us.

The thing is, we struggle to teach the young people in our culture to have pride in their heritage. We want them to know that they are not a joke or a mascot for the white people. It's hard enough to keep them from being swallowed up by this society that sees them only as "non-white". We want them to have a sense of their ancestors that isn't a cartoon.

Oh, nevermind. I can't make this come out right and I'm getting upset.



By the way, the people on my reservation are Tsistsistas; Cheyennes. We call each other and Indians from other tribes xamaevo'estaneo'o, which literally translates to "ordinary people". We mostly use the term Indian or American Indian in English.

This made about as much sense to me as this


ajlskdfchaskljvhaljkvhsxlkjhxjklvzhvkljvhjk;hx

:(

[JBernas]

This thread makes me tired.

We want them to know that they are not a joke or a mascot for the white people.

Me too.

White people are the only sports fans and the only ones the mascot represents? Also, who's really WHITE anymore? Everyone just about has some sort of mix in their history. I'm lots of things....English, Scottish, Dutch, just happens to be that Native American is the biggest part.

I'm done talking about this actually.

[avignon]

This made about as much sense to me as this


ajlskdfchaskljvhaljkvhsxlkjhxjklvzhvkljvhjk;hx

:(
I'm sorry. I don't speak Ewok.

[avignon]

Me too.

White people are the only sports fans and the only ones the mascot represents? Also, who's really WHITE anymore? Everyone just about has some sort of mix in their history. I'm lots of things....English, Scottish, Dutch, just happens to be that Native American is the biggest part.

I'm done talking about this actually.
I concede the point. Actually, I just have a hard time putting my feelings about this kind of thing into words. But you are absolutely right, I shouldn't have said "white". My mother is "white" and my father is Cheyenne. Sometimes that makes me feel like I'm not Indian enough. Being a racial minority is one thing, and being bi-racial is something else entirely. It's just a different reason to have a lot of conflicting emotions.


Yeah, I'm done too.

[BroomHead]

Chuck D, on his radio show based in New York (On The Real) had a guest on once who brought up this issue. I think he was baseball player. It was supposed to be a good marketing tool for the team. Then later, in the 2000s, when the owner was getting complaints, he claimed that it was important to keep the name to remember the rich culture of the indians. Some BS right there.

BTW, check out that radio show. Very interesting. It airs all over the US I think but for someone like me, in Canada, you can DL each show online at airamericaplace.com

[cosmo105]

Being a racial minority is one thing, and being bi-racial is something else entirely. It's just a different reason to have a lot of conflicting emotions.
word.

[Documad]

This made about as much sense to me as this


ajlskdfchaskljvhaljkvhsxlkjhxjklvzhvkljvhjk;hx

:(
I am sure that you are smart enough to understand her point of view if you try.

[synch]

Your faith in ts is endearing documad...

;)

[DroppinScience]

Here's some fuel for the fire...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/ncaa/specials/preview/2005/08/09/bc.fl.floridast.seminol.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[ToucanSpam]

I am sure that you are smart enough to understand her point of view if you try.
I had to read it a couple more times to understand it. But yes, I understand now.