Following example

[FearandLoathing]

When I look at all the fucked up things happening, and that have happened, in the world it occurs to me that there's usually the same reason for it: religion. All this shit happens because you don't believe in god, or you don't believe in their god, or their god is better than yours, or whatever the fuck. Anyway, following this train of thought, it occurs to me that if you remove this element- religion- you rid civilisation of many of its core problems.

So, do you think religion is lowering the quality of life? Do you think that the banning of religion would go farther than, say, the banning of drugs in improving people's quality of life?

[Funkaloyd]

Imo, it would definitely do more "good" than the drug prohibition, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. You'd probably find that religion's role in wars, stonings, sexism etc. is simply replaced by secular ideologies.

Anyway, quality of life is pretty subjective, and how does freedom factor into it?

[Ali]

So you see systems of thought and religion coming out of the kinds of societies that invented them.

The means by which people feed themselves determine how they think and what they believe. Agricultural societies believe in rain gods and seed gods and gods for every manner of thing that might affect the harvest (China). People who herd animals believe in a single shepherd god (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc). In both these kinds of cultures you see a primitive notion of gods as helpers, as big people watching from above, like parents who nevertheless act like bad children, deciding capriciously whom to reward and whom not to, on the basis of craven sacrifices made to them by the humans dependent on their whim.

The religions that say you should sacrifice or even pray to a god like that, to ask them to do something material for you, are the religions of desperate and ignorant people. It is only when you get to the more advanced and secure societies that you get a religion ready to face the universe honestly, to announce there is no clear sign of divinity, except for the existence of the cosmos in and of itself, which means that everything is holy, whether or not there be a god looking down on it. From "The Years of Rice and Salt" by Kim Stanley Robinson p393. Awesome book!

[Jasonik]

Religion is what you get when you have a critical mass of ideologues that don't want to associate with anyone outside their paradigm. Basically they are socially incompatable, - distrusting because they don't observe the same moral code or whatever, with non-copasetic others so they make a big clique where they can self reinforce and be surrounded by the behavior and social mores they desire. Get a bunch of feminazis, snakehandlers, goathumpers, BBMBers or whatever persuasion of dogmatic groupthink tards and TA-DA, - the most evil thing humankind has ever created.... an exclusive club. :eek:

[Jasonik]

Ali, now I'm beginning to see why you think your renunciation of religion entitles you to consider yourself evolved and enlightened.

[sam i am]

Religion is what you get when you have a critical mass of ideologues that don't want to associate with anyone outside their paradigm. Basically they are socially incompatable, - distrusting because they don't observe the same moral code or whatever, with non-copasetic others so they make a big clique where they can self reinforce and be surrounded by the behavior and social mores they desire. Get a bunch of feminazis, snakehandlers, goathumpers, BBMBers or whatever persuasion of dogmatic groupthink tards and TA-DA, - the most evil thing humankind has ever created.... an exclusive club. :eek:

Definition of "religion" : The expression of man's belief in and reverence for a superhuman power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe.

Defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

So, this removes most of your examples by default : i.e., feminazis, snakehandlers, goathumpers, BBMBers.

Also, your argumentation as to ideology falls short, since expression does not necessarily equate to social incompatibility, distrust, or even morality. Religion is not inherently judgmental, since it is individual to each person's beliefs.

Now, you may want to have a philosophical discussion about the nature of doubting the existence of a superhuman power or even those who ascribe to the nonexistence of a superhuman power, but those two other trains of thought are no less ideology-driven nor any less of a faith.

To NOT believe in a superhuman power is to deny not only God, but natural weather phenomena like hurricanes, tornadoes, tectonic plate movement, volcanoes, etc. Don't think this is an apt analogy? Well, go try to exert your human power against the superhuman power of the ocean and stop the tide from coming in. I promise you'll believe in something greater than yourself right quick.

Also, on a more personal level, I've known many a drug addict in my day who could not stay clean and sober WITHOUT a belief ina power greater than themselves (again, superhuman).

As a final example, go try to stop a bullet from hitting you or a car from killing you if you run across the freeway : ooopppss, you're not so superhuman any more, with all the answers and solutions, are you?

The bottom line is, we ALL BELIEVE in a plethora of superhuman phenomena and secular occurrences, we just usually doubt or disbelieve that they could have some kind of divine inspiration (even Christians, Jews, and Muslims regularly doubt or disbelieve in their own religions or the existence of God).

So, don't dismiss religion so out of hand. Believe it or not, you are an adherent of religion too. :eek:

[sam i am]

BTW, Kim Stanley Robinson is a great writer of fiction, especially in his Mars series, which I heratily reccommend, but he is just that : a writer. He is not a philosopher nor an expert on religion.

Nice try, ali. :rolleyes:

[Ali]

Ali, now I'm beginning to see why you think your renunciation of religion entitles you to consider yourself evolved and enlightened.Because I'm Buddhist?

Not at all!

[infidel]

I feel for the most part religion makes the majority of it's followers better people. It's extremists like in the middle east and the Christen ones trying to take over this country and force their views on everyone that the problems begin.

[FearandLoathing]

Imo, it would definitely do more "good" than the drug prohibition, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. You'd probably find that religion's role in wars, stonings, sexism etc. is simply replaced by secular ideologies.

Anyway, quality of life is pretty subjective, and how does freedom factor into it?

I think I see what you mean- humans are destructive and would continue doing the same things under a different banner.

Quality of life is just the term I hit upon attempting to describe what I mean. Maybe it wasn't a very accurate one.

I feel for the most part religion makes the majority of it's followers better people. It's extremists like in the middle east and the Christen ones trying to take over this country and force their views on everyone that the problems begin.

But when has religion ever made its followers better people? If you're talking about charity etc., non-religious people contribute to charity.

So, don't dismiss religion so out of hand. Believe it or not, you are an adherent of religion too.

But are waves, bullets, tornadoes etc. "a superhuman power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe"?

[Funkaloyd]

I've run over a freeway before, so clearly I am God.


humans are destructive and would continue doing the same things under a different banner.
I don't think it's something that's intrinsic to humanity, but yeah, those who are dickheads under the guise of religion would continue to be dickheads.

As an example: Those Christians who oppose homosexuality don't do so because the Bible says it's wrong. The Bible says that eating lobster is wrong (Leviticus 11:10), but you're not going to see any protests against eating lobster from Jerry Falwell, Brian Tamiki or their Australian equivalents (the Christian Democratic or Family First parties maybe?).

Lord knows why they are so diametrically opposed. Probably just scared due to ignorance and misunderstanding. Anyway, though Christianity reinforces their views, it isn't the cause of them. If religion were to be wiped out overnight, they'd still oppose homosexuality, only now they'd say that it's "bad for the species" or something similar, rather than "it's against God's will."

[SobaViolence]

Religion is the only way we are going to survive as a species.

we need to realize that there is so much that brings us together and is similar across faiths, cultures and nations and so little that differs. There will always be a search for the Divine, if we can only realize that we are all looking for something higher, we can come together and rejoice.

At the same time, we need to see that there is so much strength and beauty on Earth and within each human being, while we ponder and search for meaning in the skies, we should also look at each other and within ourselves and see the power we each possess.

We shouldn't necessarily assimilate all religions, but should build bridges to one another and to the skeptics, agnostics and atheists. After we do that, nothing can stop humanity, because the rest of our worries are small potatos.

we shouldn't care which faith we follow, how we worship, which denomination we are part of or even which god or the number of gods we worship, just that we are pious and good people.

[Funkaloyd]

Who gets to decide what's "good"?

[SobaViolence]

tough question.




well, i'd say there would have to be certain criteria:
-compassion
-selflessness
-sacrifice
-understanding
-improvement
-peace

but that's just a rough outline.

[Medellia]

tough question.




well, i'd say there would have to be certain criteria:
-compassion
-selflessness
-sacrifice
-understanding
-improvement
-peace

but that's just a rough outline.
The problem is that not everyone agrees on how to go about achieving that.

[SobaViolence]

well, they should check the dictionnary and see the definitions and synonyms of those words... :)

[guerillaGardner]

I think it's slightly naive to say that religion is behind all the world's problems and that the world would be sorted by banning religion. You might actually start more trouble by banning religion than encouraging mutual tolerance.

Ideology might be a better description of the causes of the world's troubles. This would include religion, but there are also racial issues, political issues, battles for natural resources and a share or even ownership of power. In some cases it just money that's the cause of the world's problems.

My suggestion for sorting the world's problems is self sufficiency at all levels - personal, community, regional and national. When people have everything they need and don't require it from their neighbours or from corporations, we go a long way to creating peace, ending poverty, creating stronger communities, smaller states and a whole lot of other benefits.

[Ali]

When people have everything they need and don't require it from their neighbours or from corporations...... or a god.

[guerillaGardner]

Religion is what you get when you have a critical mass of ideologues that don't want to associate with anyone outside their paradigm. Basically they are socially incompatable, - distrusting because they don't observe the same moral code or whatever, with non-copasetic others so they make a big clique where they can self reinforce and be surrounded by the behavior and social mores they desire. Get a bunch of feminazis, snakehandlers, goathumpers, BBMBers or whatever persuasion of dogmatic groupthink tards and TA-DA, - the most evil thing humankind has ever created.... an exclusive club. :eek:

Yep, I tend to think that the main issue is to limit the place in society of any one group or idea. Its always when things get too big that they become a pain in the arse - religions, corporations, governments, etc.

That's why I like the Zapatista idea of one world with many worlds within it. Is the Zapatista ideology of multiple ideology the first time that this has occured in the history of political ideology? If there's an ideology to get behind it's that one because it would be entirely contradictory to fight to suppress any other ideology. religion, social or racial group other than one that tried to dominate?

[guerillaGardner]

BTW, Kim Stanley Robinson is a great writer of fiction, especially in his Mars series, which I heratily reccommend, but he is just that : a writer. He is not a philosopher nor an expert on religion.

Nice try, ali. :rolleyes:

Who is an expert on religion? What qualifies someone to be an expert on religion? Its all opinion and point of view regarding human ideas on the nature of our reality, which in themselves are nothing more than opinions and points of view so I can't see why Kim Stanley Robinson's ideas should be any less valid.

[Ali]

BTW, Kim Stanley Robinson is a great writer of fiction, especially in his Mars series, which I heratily reccommend, but he is just that : a writer. He is not a philosopher nor an expert on religion.

Nice try, ali. :rolleyes:Read The Years of Rice and Salt and get back to me on that.

The man's a genius!

[SobaViolence]

I think it's slightly naive to say that religion is behind all the world's problems and that the world would be sorted by banning religion. You might actually start more trouble by banning religion than encouraging mutual tolerance.



who said anything like that?

[sam i am]

Read The Years of Rice and Salt and get back to me on that.

The man's a genius!

Because you agree with him? Look at your Goering quote that is part of your I.D. and tell me that all who agreed with him didn't think he was a "genius."

Again, nice try, but Robinson's ideas are just plain dangerous.

Religion is not just the "opiate of the masses," but, as was elegantly stated above, it provides for people to not spend so much time selfishly thinking about their own needs, wants, and desires. If we all aspire to a higher calling (whatever form that takes), we transcend our own selfish nature and find enlightenment. Some just find nothingness or darkness. Some find the complete absence of anything beyond what they can materially sense. BUT, we all have questions as to the nature of the Universe, why we are here, and what our purpose is. If you don't, then you are the most self-contained, selfish individual in the world.

[zorra_chiflada]

it's no secret that i'm not a huge fan of religion.
however, banning religion would be as unreasonable as banning atheism.

the problem is, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion goes as far to allow hate crimes and other religious extremism.
maybe we should be looking at where the boundaries of freedom of speech are, so hate crimes produced by religious extremism would be reduced.

[Ali]

Again, nice try, but Robinson's ideas are just plain dangerous.

Religion is not just the "opiate of the masses," .Oh, just read the bloody book and then you can decide whether his ideas are dangerous or not. Until you have read the book, your opinion of what he says is of no import, because you don't know what he says, do you? You babble about how we should be seeking enlightenment by transcending our own selfish nature without realising that this is exactly what the book is about!

It was Marx who spoke about religion being the opiate of the masses, Robinson says nothing of the sort! Read the book, then we can talk about what it has to say, until then we have nothing to discuss, do we?

[Funkaloyd]

we all have questions as to the nature of the Universe, why we are here, and what our purpose is. If you don't, then you are the most self-contained, selfish individual in the world.I'd say that it's more selfish (or at least anthropocentric) to assume that we are so great as to require a special reason for our existence, when the rest of the Universe seems to get on fine without one.

[Religion] provides for people to not spend so much time selfishly thinking about their own needs, wants, and desires."There are also emotional predispositions which evolved for various reasons and make us prone to religious belief as a by-product. The anthropologist Ruth Benedict summed up much of prayer when she said, 'Religion is universally a technique for success.' Ethnographic surveys suggest that when people try to communicate with God, it's not to share gossip or know-how; it’s to ask him for stuff: recovery from illness, recovery of a child from illness, success in enterprises, success in the battlefield. (And of course, the Red Sox winning the World Series, which almost made me into a believer.) This idea was summed up by Ambrose Bierce in The Devil's Dictionary (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/), which defines 'to pray' as 'to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.' This aspect of religious belief is thus a desperate measure that people resort to when the stakes are high and they've exhausted the usual techniques for the causation of success." - Steven Pinker, http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2004_10_29_religion.htm

[sam i am]

Oh, just read the bloody book and then you can decide whether his ideas are dangerous or not. Until you have read the book, your opinion of what he says is of no import, because you don't know what he says, do you? You babble about how we should be seeking enlightenment by transcending our own selfish nature without realising that this is exactly what the book is about!

It was Marx who spoke about religion being the opiate of the masses, Robinson says nothing of the sort! Read the book, then we can talk about what it has to say, until then we have nothing to discuss, do we?

OK. I read it. My opinion stands. Robinson is NOT a genius, but rather a dangerous humanophile ideologue with a predisposition to illusions of grandeur.

I was quoting Marx to illustrate a point, not to ascribe said quote to Robinson.

[D_Raay]

Religion is what you get when you have a critical mass of ideologues that don't want to associate with anyone outside their paradigm. Basically they are socially incompatable, - distrusting because they don't observe the same moral code or whatever, with non-copasetic others so they make a big clique where they can self reinforce and be surrounded by the behavior and social mores they desire. Get a bunch of feminazis, snakehandlers, goathumpers, BBMBers or whatever persuasion of dogmatic groupthink tards and TA-DA, - the most evil thing humankind has ever created.... an exclusive club. :eek:
Your best post ever...

[D_Raay]

I find this thread so comical my only response could be some words from the enigmatic George Carlin...

In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman.
'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit,
big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time
champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No
contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an
invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute
of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does
not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special
place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he
will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry
forever and ever 'til the end of time!


But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money!
He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't
handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and
they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story.
Holy Shit!


But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when
it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried
to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and
likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried
to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look
around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.


Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth,
poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is
definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am
not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme
Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad
attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy
would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I
say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if
there is a God, it has to be a man.


No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God,
I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent,
and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I
admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.


So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and
aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some
spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look
around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.


And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became
a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But
first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons.
First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could
mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something,
I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I
can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers
in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At
least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply
because they don't agree with us.


Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry,
no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a
special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the
best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm
a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me
fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I
wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.


I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking
trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging
for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And
most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And
it's no way to treat a friend.


But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know,
your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for
defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot
little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the
eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And
I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about
the Divine Plan?


Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave
it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And
for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine.
Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want
isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just
for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the
use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can
come along and fuck up Your Plan?


And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your
prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will
Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to
anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big
waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to
His Will? It's all very confusing.


So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said,
I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons:
First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he
looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In
fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having
trouble with.


For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the
barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's
amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.


So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I
noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I
now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half
the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same
as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's
foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your
fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just
pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.


And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary
qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want
to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending,
I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it
does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the
grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way.


And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty
Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's
men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is
no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In
fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this
audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All
right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God,
may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little
cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm
okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all
very much. Joe Bless You!

[D_Raay]

Sweet berries ready for two
Ghosts are no different than you
Ghosts are now waiting for you
Are you dreaming?

[racer5.0stang]

I find this thread so comical my only response could be some words from the enigmatic George Carlin...

I wonder if he will hold the same opinion after he dies.

[ChrisLove]

I wonder if he will hold the same opinion after he dies.

Probably not, in fact I would bet he becomes extremely neutral on all issues.

[racer5.0stang]

Probably not, in fact I would bet he becomes extremely neutral on all issues.


That's pretty funny! (y) :D

[Qdrop]

Religion is the only way we are going to survive as a species.



^^the most dangerous and morally irresponsible statement anyone could mutter.

people speak of religious zealotry, and that statement sums it up.

granted, the rest of soba's post talked of building bridges between faiths...perhaps even to agnostics and athiests (though i don't see how that could be logical).

but the biggest danger of religion, is when people claim you NEED it to live a good life.
that it's UTILITARIAN.

see, this logically dictates that those without it...don't lead good lives. they are somehow lacking. they aren't part of the solution.
they quickly fall into the "enemy" category.

not very unifying.

and he states a hope that we needn't all be of the same faith (tolerance)...but i find that to be a pipedream.
muslims embracing Jews because "hey, we all follow a higher power, that's unifying enough. let's be friends".
you see that working?

does "having a common belief in a higher power" really seem like a powerful enough unifyer?
wouldn't you need more "stipulations" to make it more unifying. like some certain guidlines...some unifying principles? how else could you get all to work toward a common goal of peace and unity?
hmmm.....now it's starting to sound rather exclusionary....like a separate religion.
after all, many religions conflict on some pretty basic tennants. what of them?

the real point here, is that religion is NOT the answer. it simply holds too many philisophically eclusionary principles that don't allow for tolerance, and mutual goals.
all of the positives that religion can claim for society, can be accomplished just as well (or better)through secular means.
and secular philosophy is much easier to unify under than religious doctrine.
and the negatives caused by religious, faith-based belief surpass the positives.
it is damaging to have blind faith.
faith, in general, should be used as little as possible.
yet, that is all that religion offers in the long run.

secular, humanist beliefs are our only hope for increasing unity on this planet.

[bb_bboy]

My suggestion for sorting the world's problems is self sufficiency at all levels - personal, community, regional and national. When people have everything they need and don't require it from their neighbours or from corporations ...
It would be nice if this were possible, but don't you think human civilation has seen to much and grown to large to make this a reality? Imagine if everyone in NYC suddenly had to grow all of their own food. You'd have a lot of corpses to clean up, and that would take at least some cooperation amongst neighbors. Otherwise, the few remaining alive would probably die from enveloping disease.


... or a god.
Is the willingness to believe in a god indicative of a need for or of a god?


I find this thread so comical my only response could be some words from the enigmatic George Carlin...
I think that you should, especially in light of the original post, keep in mind the particular differences between the benign philosophical nature of man that causes religious inquisitiveness and/or awareness versus the abuse of this inquisitiveness by self-serving institutions, proselytizers, etc.

When I look at all the fucked up things happening, and that have happened, in the world it occurs to me that there's usually the same reason for it: religion.
Maybe I'm repeating what others have said previously, but I think that religion is typically a convenient scapegoat for, rather than an actual cause of, the conflicts that you are talking about. More specifically, it is the most convenient scapegoat for these "fucked up things" that you are describing.

There do not exist more universally known ideologies, in the realm of the knowledge of mankind, than those of the world's major religions. More importantly, there are no sets of beliefs more inherent within nor more exploitable across cultures than the world's religions. They serve at the same time as identifiable, convincing reasons for isolationism, prejudice, fear, hate, and aggression among cultures and as rallying cries by the exploiters to incite those same feelings.

Keep in mind that I don't mean "identifiable, convincing reasons" by those who have true faith. I mean "identifiable, convincing reasons" by those who wish to abuse faith and it’s too often accompanying subordination to serve their own selfish purposes.

[sam i am]

secular, humanist beliefs are our only hope for increasing unity on this planet.

Even secular, humanist beliefs are based on faith at some level. Nothing is "completely" explainable by secular, humanist beliefs. The same with "religious" or "spiritual" beliefs.

More "evidence" for something only tends to create more questions than answers, have you ever noticed.

Therefore, since no system has ALL the answers, maybe we should just give up. Accept that you, and everyone else, operates under disillusionment and naivete, and lack of specific knowledge about most, if not all, subjects.

Once we all embrace our limitations, we are empowered to free our minds, body, and souls to accomplish anything.

[sam i am]

I think that you should, especially in light of the original post, keep in mind the particular differences between the benign philosophical nature of man that causes religious inquisitiveness and/or awareness versus the abuse of this inquisitiveness by self-serving institutions, proselytizers, etc.

Beautifully put. ^^^^^

[Funkaloyd]

Once we all embrace our limitations, we are empowered to free our minds, body, and souls to accomplish anything.Fucking hippie.

[Ali]

Is the willingness to believe in a god indicative of a need for or of a god?Yes. Gods need people to believe in them in order to exist.

[infidel]

Yes. Gods need people to believe in them in order to exist.and the only thing these gods need that they don't have is your love.
Love one now or be smiten.

[sam i am]

Fucking hippie.

NOT.

[D_Raay]

Beautifully put. ^^^^^
Would be wouldn't it if he had any idea what context I was coming from.

This whole thread is misinterpretation...

[Ali]

and the only thing these gods need that they don't have is your love.
Love one now or be smiten.Have you hugged a god today? :p

This whole thread is misinterpretation...What thread isn't?

[sam i am]

Have you hugged a god today? :p

What thread isn't?

Yes to the first question (although sarcastically posed).

And agreement :eek: on the second question : all threads ARE misinterpretation. We all have our points of view and no one is going to be convinced, EVER, that anyone else who doesn't already agree with them is correct.