The US has lost the Iraq war

[D_Raay]

It's over. For the U.S. to win the Iraq war requires three things: defeating the Iraqi resistance; establishing a stable government in Iraq that is friendly to the U.S.; maintaining the support of the American people while the first two are being done. None of these three seem any longer possible. First, the U.S. military itself no longer believes it can defeat the resistance. Secondly, the likelihood that the Iraqi politicians can agree on a constitution is almost nil, and therefore the likelihood of a minimally stable central government is almost nil. Thirdly, the U.S. public is turning against the war because it sees no "light at the end of the tunnel."

As a result, the Bush regime is in an impossible position. It would like to withdraw in a dignified manner, asserting some semblance of victory. But, if it tries to do this, it will face ferocious anger and deception on the part of the war party at home. And if it does not, it will face ferocious anger on the part of the withdrawal party. It will end up satisfying neither, lose face precipitously, and be remembered in ignominy.

[yeahwho]

D_Raay, you've made another excellent post.

Iraq has been a clusterfuck since well before the first soldiers set foot on Iraqi soil, before it was about 9/11 and the Axis of Evil, the WMDs, liberation or any of the lies. Hell, I'd have more respect for Bush if he'd just said from the start "We're going to invade Iraq, because Cheney said so."

[EN[i]GMA]

It's shit hearing it like that, but I think it's true.

Support is right on the verge of absolutely falling apart, the insurgency is not going away and the government will have problems.

[D_Raay]

GMA']It's shit hearing it like that, but I think it's true.

Support is right on the verge of absolutely falling apart, the insurgency is not going away and the government will have problems.
Yeah your right E, I probably could have worded this differently...

Was a bit irritated with Rush Limbaugh when I wrote this. ;)

[Ali]

As a result, the Bush regime is in an impossible position. It would like to withdraw in a dignified manner, asserting some semblance of victory. But, if it tries to do this, it will face ferocious anger and deception on the part of the war party at home. And if it does not, it will face ferocious anger on the part of the withdrawal party. It will end up satisfying neither, lose face precipitously, and be remembered in ignominy.Caught between Iraq and a Hard Place :p

There is a way out, you know? Start a war with Iran. That will draw away from Iraq all the religious psychos who've flocked there from all corners of the world to wage Jihad. That will keep the Arms Industry happy, as well as the Oil industry and all the other industries (e.g. construction) who profit from war.

Then, when Iran's in the same condition as Iraq is now, declare war on China.

[Freebasser]

Then, when Iran's in the same condition as Iraq is now, declare war on China.

...but not North Korea, right? ;)

[Rich Cheney]

The wars over?

[Dr Deaf]

The wars over?


...it's been over since like may 2nd 2003. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/bush.carrier.landing/) all this other shit is just tying up a few loose ends. the iraqi people are having a hard time adjusting to their new 'freedoms and liberation.' give em time, they'll get used to it.

[Calimero jr.]

Yeah, and if they're still not happy chain them in front of the TV with some Disney show or sitcom and stuff them with Mc Do. Hey, that's freedom and democracy, enjoy it suckers !!! :D

[Qdrop]

i had some optimism that this experiment could work...and perhaps a democratic, secular Iraq could be a beacon of hope for the middle east...and a sign of secular changes to come (Egypt had seemed to take notice and began making strides)....
but alas...thanks once again to RELIGOUS differances....the middle east has once again shown that it is a "hopeless cause" when it comes to peace, unity, and civil rights/justice for it inhabitants...

we need to perfect an alternative fuel source other than oil...and then slowly severe all ties with that area of the world.

stay out of the hornets nest.

[Dr Deaf]

we need to perfect an alternative fuel source other than oil...and then slowly severe all ties with that area of the world.




...or at least get better mileage in the meantime (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html). automakers have had a romantic affair with oil production since the beginning. henry ford had a different vision (http://www.hempcar.org/ford.shtml) of combustion / compression based engines and the fuel that would power them.



However, gasoline emerged as the dominant transportation fuel in the early twentieth century because of the ease of operation of gasoline engines with the materials then available for engine construction, a growing supply of cheaper petroleum from oil field discoveries, and intense lobbying by petroleum companies for the federal government to maintain steep alcohol taxes. Many bills proposing a National energy program that made use of Americas vast agricultural resources (for fuel production) were killed by smear campaigns launched by vested petroleum interests. One noteworthy claim put forth by petrol companies was that the U.S. government's plans "robbed taxpayers to make farmers rich".


surely we could have progressed on a bio-fuel concept; that presented itself in 1925.

[bb_bboy]

It's over. ... As a result, the Bush regime is in an impossible position. ... It will end up satisfying neither, lose face precipitously, and be remembered in ignominy.

I agree with your overall perspective here, but your point assumes that "winning the war" (especially according to the three areas that you outlined) was the point of this whole thing in the first place. I think that the more elusive objective is at least successful if not yet completed, in that the stakeholders have got their stakes in place.

[sam i am]

i had some optimism that this experiment could work...and perhaps a democratic, secular Iraq could be a beacon of hope for the middle east...and a sign of secular changes to come (Egypt had seemed to take notice and began making strides)....
but alas...thanks once again to RELIGOUS differances....the middle east has once again shown that it is a "hopeless cause" when it comes to peace, unity, and civil rights/justice for it inhabitants...

we need to perfect an alternative fuel source other than oil...and then slowly severe all ties with that area of the world.

stay out of the hornets nest.

Would agree with you, Q. I don't think I've quite devolved into the despair of a hopeless cause, but staying out of the hornets' nest in the future DOES sound like a better idea. I am still nagged with some doubt, however, about who will control the oil supply AFTER we leave. If the Chinese start buying up oil companies and buying up oil fields, our only option, especially with Venezuela going psycho, is to look at domestic sources or alternative fuels.

Domestic sources arises almost as much ire among those opposed to our involvement in the Middle East beacuse of the "sanctity" of wildlife refuges, SO.....

That leaves us with alternative fuels. What are the REALISTIC timetables to make these alternatives available in mass production? AND, how much OTHER kinds of pollution are we going to cause searching, mining, refining, and utilizing said alternatives?

These are the big questions that make that route almost as difficult as our continued reliance on the Middle East for oil. Cost of obtaining other sources vs. the worldwide infrastructure already in place to use what we have is another big issue that cannot be honestly assessed until the national will to pursue it is in place.

Now, MOST people are unwilling or unable to make the sacrifices necessary to have more expensive sources of fuel for our economy and our everyday lives (factories, transportation, etc.). EVERYTHING costs money at some point or another. SO.....

Who is going to pay? That's what much of the problem comes down to. Who? Should we impose draconian taxes to ensure alternative fuels? Not all of us have the Hollywood elite money available to purchase and maintain alternative fuel source cars. So....

Who has the answers? HOW is all of this to be implemented and changed?

[D_Raay]

I agree with your overall perspective here, but your point assumes that "winning the war" (especially according to the three areas that you outlined) was the point of this whole thing in the first place. I think that the more elusive objective is at least successful if not yet completed, in that the stakeholders have got their stakes in place.
Yeah you are probably right. Wasn't thinking along that line when writing it, but yeah I see your point.

[Ali]

For the U.S. to win the Iraq war requires three things: defeating the Iraqi resistance; establishing a stable government in Iraq that is friendly to the U.S.; maintaining the support of the American people while the first two are being done.First thing: The Iraqi resistance was defeated long ago (Saddam's conscripts ran like hell as soon as they saw what was coming). The resistance comes from all over the world. Religious fanatics from everywhere are flocking to the Middle East to wage war against the infidel and there's plenty of financial support coming from Oil-rich countries. It's a fight that the US cannot win. They should have thought about this. All they cared about was crushing Saddam's army and ousting him, they didn't care about what would happen afterwards. The French and Russians knew exactly what would happen and wanted no part of it. Both have experienced what it's like to fight people who are not afraid to die.

Second thing, there are soo many warring factions in Iraq, split down cultural and religious lines which go way back in time, far further than any new constitution can deliver, especially one drawn up with the approval of the US. By definition, ANY government which is vetted by the US is going to be rejected by Iraqis and their neighbours, simply because of that fact.

The third thing is not difficult to do... ask Hermann Goering.

[DroppinScience]

I think it's time to declare victory and retreat. ;)

[Ali]

I think it's time to declare victory and retreat. ;)I think it's time you went to BED!