"Green People" vs. Big Oil - Ideas Please

[bb_bboy]

I overheard some say that the reason we have so few oil refineries is "because of resistance from those 'green people'" (i.e. environmental activists) - the result of this resistance being the prevention of the construction of more refineries. I am assuming, from knowing this person, that this idea was fed to them from a radio talk show host - so I didn't seek any further input from them at that point.

Can anyone here substantiate this theory or make a case one way or the other about this. I am looking for divergent opinions so that I can continue to draw my own conclusions.

Thanks

[STANKY808]

Just my two cents, but I doubt that there's any problem for big oil in places like "Cancer Alley"...

Snaking along an 80-mile stretch of the Mississippi River between New Orleans and Baton Rouge, the tour traveled Cancer Alley, so-called for its dense cluster of petrochemical plants, oil refineries and other toxic industries. At the southwestern end of the state, the cities and towns of Calcasieu Parish, some of them founded by freed slaves in the 19th century, sit next to more than 53 industrial factories; more than 40 of the plants are clustered in a ten-mile radius. Recent tests have shown that residents of Mossville, a small town near Lake Charles, have dioxin levels in their blood three times the national average.

Again, I don't know but given the clout of the industry, I doubt their desires for plants is being held up by environmentalists.

[D_Raay]

Well, from what I can tell upon researching this a bit, is there are not more refineries simply because it more profitable to build them overseas.

There are approximately 170 oil refineries currently operating in the United States, and the number is steadily dropping. A decade and a half ago, many of the large oil corporations -- including Chevron, Mobil, Shell, Unocal and BP -- began shifting their investment focus overseas. The companies cut back on investments in their U.S. refineries, with many ultimately selling them off to smaller independent companies. Some companies like Arco and Shell could not find a willing buyer for their refineries, and just shut down operations. Many of the smaller companies have followed suit in recent years, closing many of their refineries.

Environmental regulations are at the top of the oil industry's list of complaints about how hard it is to operate in the United States. Whether this is caused by environmental activists, well, I am sure they have had some influence there.

This does seem to be a particularly hot item on environmental activists' agendas. There are stories of them boarding oil rigs in the north Atlantic, being burned and killed in South Africa, illegally trespassing in refineries in California.

Shell is one of the main targets. They have consistently overstated their oil reserves and their social and environmental performance. FoE (Friends of Earth) and others have taken legal action against Shell in the past.

There are also countless reports of illnesses and diseases thought to be caused by refineries, alot of them from water contanimants.

Most of the refineries now operated by the major oil companies are now located in third world countries.

So, I would guess that yeah environmentalists had alot to do with the lack of refineries here, but probably that is a good thing.

[infidel]

The reason no new refineries are being built is because big oil knows their time is about up. Why build a multi-billion dollar plant if you don't have enough product and demand to keep it going more than a couple decades?
The oil companies have discussed the option of building new refineries along the Mexican and Canadian borders to skirt environmental regulations in the US but have decided that even that won't give the long term payback they want.

[STANKY808]

Just gotta ask, are you under the impression that Canada's environmental laws are more lax than those in the states? Akin to those in Mexico? Any reference?

[Abe Froman]

With billions of dollars in profits, I understand the hardships the oil companies would face building enivornmentaly friendly (if possible) refineries. But, the fact that they close them down themselves and then cry that they can't make enough because of the green people shows you their trickery.

[infidel]

Just gotta ask, are you under the impression that Canada's environmental laws are more lax than those in the states? Akin to those in Mexico? Any reference?
Much laxer. I live in Montana, the state is forever filing lawsuits against Canada because of their pollution blowing and flowing down the rivers into our state.
People have mistaken belief that Canada is green just because they have a lot of trees.

[SobaViolence]

Funny, in Windsor/all of Southern Ontario, we get all the shit blowing north from Detroit/Michigan and i've heard of lawsuits being filed against Americans...

[Abe Froman]

Lets just call it even.

[STANKY808]

Much laxer. I live in Montana, the state is forever filing lawsuits against Canada because of their pollution blowing and flowing down the rivers into our state.
People have mistaken belief that Canada is green just because they have a lot of trees.

And what big industrial centre is located on the Montana border causing this?

[SobaViolence]

yeah, what's going on in south east alberta and southern saskatchewan that i don't know about?

[infidel]

And what big industrial centre is located on the Montana border causing this? There is no industrial centre.
It's the coal, mineral and tar sands mining areas of southern Alberta, where the rivers flow south into Montana that cause the problems. Much of the pollutants, mainly heavy metals, end up in pristine Flathead Lake, the largest natural lake west of the Mississippi.

[STANKY808]

Not to nit pick and this is not a defense of Canada's environmental record, it's just that you made a rather sweeping statement for which I sought clarirification of.

And to that end, the tar sands are located in the north eastern part of the province. I don't think they are the problem.
http://www.osern.rr.ualberta.ca/Images/old/AOSM_Full.gif

In the matter air pollution, I think the jet stream runs mostly west to east and varies somewhat, dipping to the south or rising to the north so I guess that's a wash.

And as for coal mining, looking at maps of the province it looks like most of the operations are well to the north of the border.

Again, any outflow from these operations are completely unacceptable. However, if you follow the US/Canadian border, from end to end, I think you will find Canada has suffered more than it's fair share of environmental damage due to emmissions originating south of the border (i.e. ccountlesss lakes killed due to acid rain from the Ohio Valley and poor air quality leading to almost constant smog alerts during the summer months in most of the eastern half of Canada from Windsor, Ontario to the maritime provinces).

[Ali]

BP claims to be researching into renewables in its' Beyond Petroleum (http://www.bp.com/home.do?categoryId=1) marketing campaign.

Actually, not (http://www.eco-imperialism.com/content/article.php3?id=8). More of a Greenwash (http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/sbeder/bp.html) to get the Greenies of its back.

It's a sad fact that Renewables are just not profitable enough to make them 'viable'. Way more money gets spent on looking for fossil fuel deposits and then extracting and refining it, than on developing alternative energy technology. Only when every last drop of oil and every crumb of coal has been burned will the money begin to be spent on other things.

That's Business, folks.

[Qdrop]

NUCLEAR POWER


HYDROGEN POWER


now is the time for the transition to start.....if it's not too late already.



the more desparate we get for oil (as the prices keep climbing)....the more "wars" you will see with oil rich countries....we won't have a choice.

we won't even be able to hide it in about ten years....we'll have to just come out and say "yeah, we want your fuckin oil...and we can't pay for it....so we're taking it....here's some "freedom" in return..."

we won't even bother with the viel of "WMD's, terrorist cell/training, dictatorships, civil rights abuse. etc"

[Ali]

NUCLEAR POWER


HYDROGEN POWER


now is the time for the transition to start.....if it's not too late already.



the more desparate we get for oil (as the prices keep climbing)....the more "wars" you will see with oil rich countries....we won't have a choice.

we won't even be able to hide it in about ten years....we'll have to just come out and say "yeah, we want your fuckin oil...and we can't pay for it....so we're taking it....here's some "freedom" in return..."

we won't even bother with the viel of "WMD's, terrorist cell/training, dictatorships, civil rights abuse. etc"
Word.

Hopefully, in ten years' time there won't be an Oil Man in Office.

If there was somebody like Nader in Office now (I said 'like', people) then you can be sure that the US would be leading the world in looking for fossil fuel Alternatives instead of using the blood of brave young Americans to fuel their greed.

Four more years of this Buffoon and his cronies and by then even the most staunch Bush supporter must realise that the US cannot go on like this. Surely.