September 24th protest

[D_Raay]

I noticed in my local newspaper that the crowd estimate was 100,000. This is not true. Being there myself, I can confidently say it was at least 250,000, probably more.

The whole event was very encouraging for those of you who want to see change in our government. I met and talked with several individuals from all walks of life with varying stories and circumstances.

Everything was very peaceful with the exception of the small group with megaphones that had "homo" with a slash through it on the side being harassed at every turn.

There were quite a few different groups there, each with it's own grievances and concerns , but the general consensus was we need to do something about the Bush regime.

I joined one particular organization who I was very impressed with.
They are http://www.worldcantwait.org/.
They are having a massive protest in NYC on November 2. All the info is on their website for anyone who is interested.

[QueenAdrock]

I really wish I could have gone, but I have a test next week I have to study for all weekend. :(

I sent my brother in my place. He said the anti-war to pro-war ratio was about 1,000: 2.

Good job. :D Coming to see Ms. Cindy at UMD this Tuesday?

[franscar]

He said the anti-war to pro-war ratio was about 1,000: 2.


That's nearly 500:1 :eek:

Good to see.

[QueenAdrock]

Holy crap! And that's almost 250: 1/2!

Or 125: 1/4!

I guess they'd be the parapalegics.

[ericg]

Sunsara's a keen, intelligent young woman and I wish her ALL the best!!!
She may get a good ride out of her prerogatives, but I hate to see her org set up for failure because it lacks the 'criteria'...
Positive thinking is only an easy way out sometimes.
It is naive to think that they'll change anything Nov 2.
My local news didn't even cover the DC protest.
A war against a world super power with controls beyond belief can't be won with 20 "notable" endorsements and a day of shouting in the streets.
She'd have to corroborate with ALL the other orgs in affinity to form a comprehensive union just to begin to manage getting 'heavy hitters' to step up as one. It's devastating to think what that says about the conviction and initiative of many people, but painfully obvious and true. Everybody at the protest yesterday should've been part of one tangible union of all in affinity that had a 'blueprint' to discuss actions of result, not divided into hundreds of cluster fuck factions gathering in futile vain for the day.
If I've said it all once, I've said it a zillion times.
Did you join Greenpeace too?

[greedygretchen]

"I went down to the demonstration, to get my fair share of abuse..."

Yesterday, I went to the anti-war protest in down town LA on Olympic/Broadway. I took the bus there. I couldn't help but feel the excitement in the air as I turned the corner on 7th & Broadway and saw a massive amount of people with protest signs. Everything was pretty peaceful and people from all walks of life- age, race, ethnicity, class- were present. There was a steady drumbeat throughout the march as we chanted "impeach bush," "bring the troops home now" and the ever popular "hey,hey-ho,ho, the occupation has got to go!" We were making our voices heard peacefully in solidarity. The funniest thing I saw was a protestor telling a lone bible thumper with a sign that said something about us "malcontents" needing help from Jesus, "Jesus was a liberal, Jesus was a liberal long-haired hippie!" Heehee. I wondered if he had watched Bill Maher last week 'cause he said the same thing.

"We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be broken..."

Even when we don't get fair media coverage. How much more do we need to know about Hurricane Rita? We know, we know it's a horrible situation down there, lots of flooding, lots of rain, the people need help, they're in our prayers, we're sending donations, we get it. According to LA Times, 15,000 congregated in the streets of LA to protest the war. That is great news! However, I saw about a 1 minute segment (and that segment was divided amongst all the simultaneous protests going on) on the local news and the LA Times only spent 1 page on the protest. Also, although the amount of protestors far outweighed those protesting the protest, both the paper and the local news seemed to give equal if not more time to those protesting the protestors. And in the LA Times, where were the aerial shots of the protestors? The photo diary? Something besides just 1 picture of 1 guy with a sign?

"Renegades are the people with our own philosophies, we change the course of history everyday people like you and me..."

I definitely enjoyed my protest experience. One of the most important things said at the rally, was that we can not be satisfied with this one protest. It was successful but we can't say "okay, I did my job" i'll just sit back now and see what happens. Hopefully, the word will spread and even more people will come out to the next rally.

[D_Raay]

Yeah the media's non coverage of the events, and the actual fact that they even mention the anti-protestors is deplorable.

I was in Washington from 10 A.M. to 8 P.M. and I saw two conservative guys. Yeah that's right 2. A couple of young Republicans from Jersey who were too scared to even raise their signs if they even had any. I wouldn't have known they were conservatives if not for their T-shirts.

The Bible thumpers I referred to before, when pressed about it, also renounced Bush and the war along with everyone else.

[D_Raay]

I really wish I could have gone, but I have a test next week I have to study for all weekend. :(

I sent my brother in my place. He said the anti-war to pro-war ratio was about 1,000: 2.

Good job. :D Coming to see Ms. Cindy at UMD this Tuesday?
Probably not unless something changes in my schedule. It's at 7 PM right?

I actually got to speak to her briefly, to my great delight, on Saturday. She is very tired. Can't blame her really.

[little j]

i thought she got arrested.
is she gonna make it tomorrow?

[BGirl]

I was in Washington from 10 A.M. to 8 P.M. and I saw two conservative guys. Yeah that's right 2. A couple of young Republicans from Jersey who were too scared to even raise their signs if they even had any. I wouldn't have known they were conservatives if not for their T-shirts.


What about that motley crew in front of the FBI building? Berating us with their bullhorns... a couple hundred, mostly white & middle aged. I just flashed a peace sign at em... looked behind me and others were too :)

No doubt though, they were VASTLY outnumbered by our huge protest which was also a much more diverse crowd (y)

some photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16098199@N00/sets/1021730/)

[D_Raay]

What about that motley crew in front of the FBI building? Berating us with their bullhorns... a couple hundred, mostly white & middle aged. I just flashed a peace sign at em... looked behind me and others were too :)

No doubt though, they were VASTLY outnumbered by our huge protest which was also a much more diverse crowd (y)

some photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16098199@N00/sets/1021730/)
I never saw them. I never went in front of the FBI building, just mostly in the Ellipse and on pennsylvania ave. and at the Monument.

[D_Raay]

I really wish I could have gone, but I have a test next week I have to study for all weekend. :(

I sent my brother in my place. He said the anti-war to pro-war ratio was about 1,000: 2.

Good job. :D Coming to see Ms. Cindy at UMD this Tuesday?
…from the Washington Post:

“Cindy Sheehan, the California woman who has used her son's death in Iraq to spur the anti-war movement, was arrested Monday while protesting outside the White House.

Sheehan and several dozen other protesters sat down on the sidewalk after marching along the pedestrian walkway on Pennsylvania Avenue. Police warned them three times that they were breaking the law by failing to move along, then began making arrests..

Sheehan, 48, was the first taken into custody. She stood up and was led to a police vehicle while protesters chanted, "’The whole world is watching.’"

From the latest I’ve heard, Usama bin Laden has not yet been arrested.

Nor has anyone been arrested in the Valerie Plame or Muhammed Naeem Noor Khan leaks…

[QueenAdrock]

Wow. I hadn't even heard of that. Looks like that's just going to make the divisions between anti-war and pro-war people on campus even more distinct. When shit hits the fan, it always does. :-/

What I find ridiculous is when people say that supporting Cindy Sheehan's protest against the war is "un-American." I see it as a solider with his fuckin' foot caught in a bear trap, and the liberals are saying "HOLY SHIT, LOOK AT HIS FUCKIN' FOOT, MANG! GET IT OUTTA THERE, HE'S GONNA BLEED TO DEATH AND DIE!" And the conservatives say "Hey. You better support his foot. But we're not gonna help him out of it, his foot needs to stay in there for a little while longer. Support the bear trap, or you're un-American."

But in the long run, the bear trap is gonna kill him. There's no reason for his foot to be in that damn trap. It's just slowly killing him and he needs to be saved now. But I guess that's just *too simple*.

[QueenAdrock]

I think they should go ahead and make a political martyr out of her. It will just empower her side of the fight.

[BGirl]

Cindy with the CD action. I was so excited when I heard about this today. She's amazing (y)

[EN[i]GMA]

Standing on a sidewalk after the police tell you to move three times doesn't require much bravery.

Read:
The protesters later sat down on the pedestrian walkway in front of the White House -- knowing they would be arrested -- and began singing and chanting "Stop the war now!"

Police warned them three times that they were breaking the law by failing to move along, then began making arrests. One man climbed over the White House fence and was quickly subdued by Secret Service agents.

Shit, I can go sit in the middle of a 'pedestrian walkway' or a street and get arrested.

In doesn't make me a defender of your rights or freedom of any of that bullshit.

It's like the protestors at the WTO meeting who were blocking the street. What would have happend if there had been a fire or medical emergency, a likely occurance with that many people there?

How could an ambulance get through? How could a fire truck get through? They couldn't, so tear gas was used.

They KNEW they were going to be arrested, there was nothing brave about it.

I really feel out of place in the anti-war movement, because I don't like any of these people; Micheal Moore, Cindy Sheehan etc.

Why can't we just stick to the facts and logic not the latest sensationalistic media whore?

Cindy et al do a disservice to the anti-war community by making us all look like a bunch of looney moonbats.

[BGirl]

Nonviolent civil disobedience has a proud tradition.

Do you think Rosa Parks was a 'looney moonbat' as well? What about MLK? Gandhi? The Suffragists? (Jesse Jackson said on Saturday that Cindy Sheehan is the Rosa Parks of our generation.)

(By the way, in our travels and walks on Saturday we passed The Willard hotel where, our hosts informed us, MLK had written his 'I have a dream' speech. (y))

If there had been a fire or other emergency, people committing a CD act would get out of the way, probably even provide assistance. Use your head.

Someone figures out how to get our message heard in a hostile media environment and they become a 'looney moonbat.'

Fuck that. We need more 'looney moonbats.'

[EN[i]GMA]

Nonviolent civil disobedience has a proud tradition.

Oh please.

Any wackjob can get themselves arrested and call it 'civil disobediance'.


Do you think Rosa Parks was a 'looney moonbat' as well?

Nope.


What about MLK?

Nope.


Gandhi?

Nope.


The Suffragists?

Nope.

Do you consider Alex Jones, David Ickey and those like them loonies? Do you support the 'nonviolent struggle' against our Reptilian overlords?



(Jesse Jackson said on Saturday that Cindy Sheehan is the Rosa Parks of our generation.)

Well if Jesse Jackson said it!

Sheehan didn't get arrested for any real reason, she CHOSE to be arrested.

It's like if I went up and ASKED the police to arrest me, and then said "Look, I've been arrested, I'm Mahatma fucking Gandhi!", I would be totally wrong in making the claim.

Any moron can get themselves arrested for a cause and call it 'civil disobediance' or whatever and the fuck they want, but the truth is, she got arrested for sitting in side-walk.

Rosa Parks got arrested FOR HER CAUSE, removing the unjust seating laws, MLK was arrestd FOR HIS CAUSE, aiding Civil rights, Gandhi was arrested FOR HIS CAUSE, lauding Indian independance, the Suffergists were arrested for supporting their cause, trying to vote.

Sheehan was arrested for sitting down in a sidewalk.

Now if Sheehan were protesting laws against sitting on sidewalks, THEN you could make the claim that she was arrested 'for her cause' during 'civil disobedience'.

Use you head.



If there had been a fire or other emergency, people committing a CD act would get out of the way, probably even provide assistance.

You think it's easy moving hundreds people out of the way in a dense mass of thousands?

You are so fucking naive.

These people's only intent WAS to get teargassed so they could get on the news and so morons would say "Look at the police oppressing those poor people!".

All they wanted was media attention.

They're media whores like Sheehan.


Use your head.

Use yours.



Someone figures out how to get our message heard in a hostile media environment and they become a 'looney moonbat.'

...

No, someone calling for an end to the 'military occupation' of New Orleans is a looney moonbat.


Fuck that. We need more 'looney moonbats.'

No we don't, we have plenty as it is.

[BGirl]

GMA']Do you consider Alex Jones, David Ickey and those like them loonies?

Alex Jones... been to his site a couple times... he has some interesting ideas and has done some interesting research, I'll leave it at that. I guess the jury is out on him and some of his ideas.

Not familiar with David Ickey.


GMA']
Do you support the 'nonviolent struggle' against our Reptilian overlords?

:confused:


In this thread I'm supporting Cindy Sheehan and her use of nonviolent civil disobedience to end the war on Iraq.


GMA']
Sheehan didn't get arrested for any real reason, she CHOSE to be arrested.


Right, it was a sit in. It was a way to be arrested and register her dissent with the government. Thoreau chose another way to peacefully disobey the government, not paying his taxes. I don't know what law exactly was broken yesterday - loitering? But I do know the action was planned and even announced at the concert, with training available.

From all reports it was also peaceful.


GMA']
It's like if I went up and ASKED the police to arrest me, and then said "Look, I've been arrested, I'm Mahatma fucking Gandhi!", I would be totally wrong in making the claim.


I don't think Cindy Sheehan announced to anyone that she's Gandhi. She -is- following his example in taking peaceful, nonviolent action to bring attention to her (our) cause of ending the war on Iraq.

Why all the hostility to people who make use of the media (to include Michael Moore) and peaceful means to further progressive causes, the anti-Bush movement, antiwar movement, whatever you want to call it. They're loonies because they want to be heard?

You would rather the right wing control all the news all the time? You gotta make a splash to get attention... look at Billionaires for Bush... You sound a bit uptight about it all... hateful even... check yourself... embrace your fellow dissenters. (y)


GMA']
Any moron can get themselves arrested for a cause and call it 'civil disobediance' or whatever and the fuck they want, but the truth is, she got arrested for sitting in side-walk.


Sit ins are one way to practice peaceful civil disobedience, yes...

We're going around in circles here...

Again, all this hostility toward people who sacrificed their freedom (even if just for a few hours) to further a cause. I really don't get it. You should be thanking them, not attacking them.


GMA']
Rosa Parks got arrested FOR HER CAUSE, removing the unjust seating laws, MLK was arrestd FOR HIS CAUSE, aiding Civil rights, Gandhi was arrested FOR HIS CAUSE, lauding Indian independance, the Suffergists were arrested for supporting their cause, trying to vote.

Sheehan was arrested for sitting down in a sidewalk.

Now if Sheehan were protesting laws against sitting on sidewalks, THEN you could make the claim that she was arrested 'for her cause' during 'civil disobedience'.

Use you head.


First of all, you say that Cindy Sheehan has no cause?

Has she failed in getting her message out - at least to you? She wants to end the war. She wants to know why her son died. What is the noble cause? Why won't Bush answer the question?

You think she deserves to be attacked for bringing attention to this message, which has such difficulty getting a hearing with the American public (look at the coverage - or lack thereof - of Saturday's gigantic protest)?



As to your logic... :confused: what law do you propose she break to be taken seriously as having been arrested in an effort to end the war rather than simply to be famous (as you seem to be accusing her of)?


GMA']
You think it's easy moving hundreds people out of the way in a dense mass of thousands?

You are so fucking naive.


How many protests have you been to? How many CD actions? To tell me I'm naive?

When you're talking about a CD action you're not talking thousands of people. Many people, for various reasons, draw the line at getting arrested... you end up with a few hundred. I'm telling you this from personal observations. Every CD action that I've witnessed has involved a few dozen or a few hundred people at the most, all have been peaceful. What I read about the action yesterday is in keeping with that, from what I read and understand there was not a mass of thousands there.

The last thing the organizers of these actions want is to endanger people's safety. They are peaceful, as I keep saying.

The dense mass of thousands was there on Saturday. And that was all legal. Are you opposed to mass gatherings in general, on grounds of safety?


GMA']
These people's only intent WAS to get teargassed so they could get on the news and so morons would say "Look at the police oppressing those poor people!".

All they wanted was media attention.

They're media whores like Sheehan.


You can stop worrying about how stuff like what happened in Seattle might be hurting the cause because if you recall, all of the massive protests that have taken place since have been peaceful and productive. In fact from all reports, any disturbing of the peace usually came from the authorities and even that was only in the early protests, before and at the beginning of the war. Several of us noticed how chill the DC cops at Saturday's march were. I think more and more of them are sympathetic to the demonstrators' causes as we get deeper and deeper into the Bush administration, really.




GMA']
Use yours.
...

No, someone calling for an end to the 'military occupation' of New Orleans is a looney moonbat.

No we don't, we have plenty as it is.

Why don't you reserve your ire for the people who really deserve it? The people who are killing innocents by the thousands, destroying the planet and mortgaging our country's future to grab all the power and money and resources for themselves?

Why waste energy maligning the people who are (effectively I would argue) bringing attention to these issues and working to bring about change - especially by using nonviolent means?



Stop hating. (y)

[K-nowledge]

I think they should go ahead and make a political martyr out of her. It will just empower her side of the fight.

She was a political martyr the second she stepped foot in Texas.

[EN[i]GMA]

Alex Jones... been to his site a couple times... he has some interesting ideas and has done some interesting research, I'll leave it at that. I guess the jury is out on him and some of his ideas.

Not familiar with David Ickey.


In this thread I'm supporting Cindy Sheehan and her use of nonviolent civil disobedience to end the war on Iraq.

That would go with David Ickey.


Right, it was a sit in. It was a way to be arrested and register her dissent with the government. Thoreau chose another way to peacefully disobey the government, not paying his taxes. I don't know what law exactly was broken yesterday - loitering? But I do know the action was planned and even announced at the concert, with training available.

Thoreau's issue was with taxation though, or at least providing support to the state via taxation.


I don't think Cindy Sheehan announced to anyone that she's Gandhi. She -is- following his example in taking peaceful, nonviolent action to bring attention to her (our) cause of ending the war on Iraq.

Us leaving wouldn't end the war in Iraq, it would re-start it.


Why all the hostility to people who make use of the media (to include Michael Moore) and peaceful means to further progressive causes, the anti-Bush movement, antiwar movement, whatever you want to call it. They're loonies because they want to be heard?

No, they're loonies because of the way they go about it.

We don't need to lie or distort or come off as crazy to tear down this ediface of stupidy.


You would rather the right wing control all the news all the time? You gotta make a splash to get attention... look at Billionaires for Bush... You sound a bit uptight about it all... hateful even... check yourself... embrace your fellow dissenters. (y)

Right wing control of the news? Of some of the news.

I no more need to embrace my 'fellow dissenters' on this issue than I need to embrace, say, Alex Jones becuase he too dislikes the war.


Sit ins are one way to practice peaceful civil disobedience, yes...

We're going around in circles here...

Again, all this hostility toward people who sacrificed their freedom (even if just for a few hours) to further a cause. I really don't get it. You should be thanking them, not attacking them.

First I have to wonder if what they're proposing is really that good. Leaving Iraq now may not be the best idea. We're in to deep. I don't see how you can claim you're a huminitarian and support us leaving Iraq now, when a war or coup is sure to follow.

Secondly, I dislike the sensationalism and the methods.

I think that it's a sham that the same people who support the 'Iraqi resistance', the 'Iraqi resistance' that killed Ms. Sheehan's son, also claim to support Ms. Sheehan.

Doesn't that seem a little disengenious to you?

I mean it's great that people are out there fighting the power as it were, but couldn't they do it more effectively?


First of all, you say that Cindy Sheehan has no cause?

Has she failed in getting her message out - at least to you? She wants to end the war. She wants to know why her son died. What is the noble cause? Why won't Bush answer the question?

She's met with Bush, twice I believe.


You think she deserves to be attacked for bringing attention to this message, which has such difficulty getting a hearing with the American public (look at the coverage - or lack thereof - of Saturday's gigantic protest)?

Do you think she's really that effective?

To people on the right she provides an easy target with her statements about ending the 'military occupation of New Orleans' etc.

Do you think she's really such an asset to our cause? Or is she a liability?


As to your logic... :confused: what law do you propose she break to be taken seriously as having been arrested in an effort to end the war rather than simply to be famous (as you seem to be accusing her of)?

Good question.

It's quite hard to physically protest something that's thousands of miles away.


How many protests have you been to? How many CD actions? To tell me I'm naive?

When you're talking about a CD action you're not talking thousands of people. Many people, for various reasons, draw the line at getting arrested... you end up with a few hundred. I'm telling you this from personal observations. Every CD action that I've witnessed has involved a few dozen or a few hundred people at the most, all have been peaceful. What I read about the action yesterday is in keeping with that, from what I read and understand there was not a mass of thousands there.

The last thing the organizers of these actions want is to endanger people's safety. They are peaceful, as I keep saying.

The dense mass of thousands was there on Saturday. And that was all legal. Are you opposed to mass gatherings in general, on grounds of safety?

No, but when people partake in actions that could hurt others solely for publicity, than yes I have an issue.


You can stop worrying about how stuff like what happened in Seattle might be hurting the cause because if you recall, all of the massive protests that have taken place since have been peaceful and productive. In fact from all reports, any disturbing of the peace usually came from the authorities and even that was only in the early protests, before and at the beginning of the war. Several of us noticed how chill the DC cops at Saturday's march were. I think more and more of them are sympathetic to the demonstrators' causes as we get deeper and deeper into the Bush administration, really.

But I have to ask, what have these demonstrations actually done?

The sad answer is nothing.

They haven't stopped anything.

I'm not saying this means we shouldn't protest, but damn, isn't it obvious none's listening?

Bush and his ilk just don't care.


Why don't you reserve your ire for the people who really deserve it? The people who are killing innocents by the thousands, destroying the planet and mortgaging our country's future to grab all the power and money and resources for themselves?

What good will my ire do?

As long as we are in the minority, with this type of leadership in power, we just aren't that relevent.

Protesting isn't working; what now?


Why waste energy maligning the people who are (effectively I would argue) bringing attention to these issues and working to bring about change - especially by using nonviolent means?

Stop hating. (y)

Because I believe it could be done more effectively.

[Ace42X]

GMA']
Protesting isn't working; what now?

Make use of your constitutionally enshrined second ammendment rights?

[BGirl]

Thank you Ace... haha... why didn't I notice that signature before? :rolleyes:

EN[i]GMA, it's clear we're so far apart on things we won't come together on this issue, at least not today.

Good luck with whatever it is you decide to do to help with the antiwar effort. I don't think publicly attacking others who are working for the same goal is such a great approach though, really. But good luck. Let's end this war (y)

[D_Raay]

Make use of your constitutionally enshrined second ammendment rights?
May be the only avenue left to all of us... cryptic, ain't it?

[FunkyHiFi]

Just wanted to mention this musician-oriented organization that helped with the protest:

Operation: Ceasefire (http://www.opceasefire.org)

One of its members is Thievery Corporation, one of my favorite groups (well, duo actually, but anyway.......). And on a side note, that cool "Toughdove" graphic can be downloaded in several forms, a couple of which are huge files that a place like Kinkos should be able to make into a quality poster-sized print.

BTW: I also noticed an almost total lack of coverage of this event. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't think this has completely to do with all the ridiculous :rolleyes: amount of coverage of Hurricanes Katrina/Rita.

[DroppinScience]

BTW: I also noticed an almost total lack of coverage of this event. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't think this has completely to do with all the ridiculous :rolleyes: amount of coverage of Hurricanes Katrina/Rita.

I saw it mentioned on cnn.com. *shrugs*

[Funkaloyd]

GMA']It's like the protestors at the WTO meeting who were blocking the street. What would have happend if there had been a fire or medical emergency, a likely occurance with that many people there?
How could an ambulance get through? How could a fire truck get through? They couldn't, so tear gas was used.Maybe they should have been herded in to Free Speech Zones for the good of public safety?

[BGirl]

Oh... I want to set the record straight about Thoreau. He withheld his taxes and spent a night in jail in protest of the Mexican-American war, not taxation itself.

Cindy Sheehan's arrest was for demonstrating without a permit.

I won't be around to continue the discussion today, I'm off to conserve some old books and then count some street trees. :)

[EN[i]GMA]

Oh... I want to set the record straight about Thoreau. He withheld his taxes and spent a night in jail in protest of the Mexican-American war, not taxation itself.

Yes, that is correct.

But not paying taxes is a very direct way of dissenting.

[FunkyHiFi]

I saw it mentioned on cnn.com.
Same here. But that's the problem IMO-it was mentioned.........and that was it. It's like they were talking about someone who was involved in a fender-bender in a Kroger parking lot. :rolleyes: :mad: