Population Control...NOT!

[sam i am]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051012/ap_on_re_us/sixteen_kids

This is why the US doesn't have to worry about stagnating or dropping population!

She's looking to have MORE kids! My god, I can barely handle four....can you imagine 16 or more in the same house? Criminy! :eek:

[Schmeltz]

So the United States doesn't have to worry about a decrease in birth rates because one couple has sixteen kids?

[sam i am]

So the United States doesn't have to worry about a decrease in birth rates because one couple has sixteen kids?


Oh, brother. Do you HAVE to be SO mundane? I just thought it was a fun EXAMPLE of how much of the US views children. Wanting 16 or 17 kids would probably not happen in most European countries....who would support them on depressed wages and unemployment? Also, they'd be seen in much of Europe as an eventual drain on the resources of the country...i.e, cradle to grave health insurance on 16-17 kids would surely be a HUGE financial burden, NOT borne by the parents, God forbid, in much of Europe.

[Schmeltz]

I don't think most of the US is eager to crank them out by the dozen either, but by your comments I can see you live in some strange, surreal version of reality where "Europe" is some kind of socialist, family-loathing monolith, so I'll simply bow out of this "discussion."

[sam i am]

I don't think most of the US is eager to crank them out by the dozen either, but by your comments I can see you live in some strange, surreal version of reality where "Europe" is some kind of socialist, family-loathing monolith, so I'll simply bow out of this "discussion."

OK.

Thanks for the input.

If you have a different view, I'd love to see it posted.

[wanton wench]

hahahahaha
thats how we do it in the south!

[Funkaloyd]

Eventually, one or two of the children will go postal, and things will balance out in the end.

Natural population control.

[QueenAdrock]

FROM ARKANSAS? Jesus Christ. It's always the dumbest of the bunch that breed the fastest. Someone should have gotten that guy a vasectomy for a wedding present.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate!

[QueenAdrock]

P.S. My friend is has 11 siblings (she's Mormon), and she's number 11 out of the bunch. She's got birth defects of a popping jaw and a double earlobe. She said the more kids you have, and the older you are, the more likely it is for birth defects.

[zorra_chiflada]

Oh, brother. Do you HAVE to be SO mundane? I just thought it was a fun EXAMPLE of how much of the US views children. Wanting 16 or 17 kids would probably not happen in most European countries....who would support them on depressed wages and unemployment? Also, they'd be seen in much of Europe as an eventual drain on the resources of the country...i.e, cradle to grave health insurance on 16-17 kids would surely be a HUGE financial burden, NOT borne by the parents, God forbid, in much of Europe.


you know, every one of your posts has this thinly veiled anti-europe, socialist-hating sentiment. it's very reminiscent of gmsisko. are you trying to promote the US as the most wonderful country in the world?


you aren't fooling anyone.

[Medellia]

That article made my vagina hurt.

[little j]

ow
having a kid like every year or every other year? its like that area doesn't heal. how does he get down there to do anything? ow.

[sam i am]

Eventually, one or two of the children will go postal, and things will balance out in the end.

Natural population control.


Funkaloyd, you're becoming a one-hit wonder.....can you jar the record player so we can skip that track from repeating over and over please?

Thanks....appreciate! ;) :cool:

[sam i am]

you know, every one of your posts has this thinly veiled anti-europe, socialist-hating sentiment. it's very reminiscent of gmsisko. are you trying to promote the US as the most wonderful country in the world?
you aren't fooling anyone.

Naw. It's just so much fun to be the only conservative on the board who posts regularly, that I have to try twice as hard to be heard through all the clutter and rhetoric that is emanating from the other side of the political spectrum.

Trust me, I'm not even CLOSE to gmsisko. I posted against him as well, if you'll recall, and I have had many discussions with you, Zorra, where we discussed issues and ideas and came to some points of common ground, I thought.

I'm a little disappointed that you would not view me with some nuance, as I do have a worldview, but it is neither monolithic nor implacable to calm discourse and reasoned exposition.

Now, I WILL say that I do love the US. I believe that it is the greatest country on Earth and would like to see many more countries follow our ideals, ideas, and philosophies. I disagree, and argue against, the Left because I believe that it is a skewed and, at times, blatantly wrong point of view.

Occasionally, you have seen me devolve into hyperbole in order to make a point or be heard through the chatter, but I am capabale, and have demonstrated on numerous occasions, the ability to be facetious, humorous, caring, compassionate, understanding, intellectual, facile, febrile, and enigmatic.

No one on this forum is as strident nor hostile in their everyday lives as they are on these posts.....mainly, IMO, due to the fact that none of us actually ever has to face each other and see the real impact our words have on each other. I fwe ever did, I believe this would be a whole different place to visit and converse.

Until that time, however, please don't mistake me for sisko..... ;)

[sam i am]

That article made my vagina hurt.


Mine too........
























wait for it.............





























and I'm a man! :eek: :D

[zorra_chiflada]

Naw. It's just so much fun to be the only conservative on the board who posts regularly, that I have to try twice as hard to be heard through all the clutter and rhetoric that is emanating from the other side of the political spectrum.

Trust me, I'm not even CLOSE to gmsisko. I posted against him as well, if you'll recall, and I have had many discussions with you, Zorra, where we discussed issues and ideas and came to some points of common ground, I thought.

I'm a little disappointed that you would not view me with some nuance, as I do have a worldview, but it is neither monolithic nor implacable to calm discourse and reasoned exposition.

Now, I WILL say that I do love the US. I believe that it is the greatest country on Earth and would like to see many more countries follow our ideals, ideas, and philosophies. I disagree, and argue against, the Left because I believe that it is a skewed and, at times, blatantly wrong point of view.

Occasionally, you have seen me devolve into hyperbole in order to make a point or be heard through the chatter, but I am capabale, and have demonstrated on numerous occasions, the ability to be facetious, humorous, caring, compassionate, understanding, intellectual, facile, febrile, and enigmatic.

No one on this forum is as strident nor hostile in their everyday lives as they are on these posts.....mainly, IMO, due to the fact that none of us actually ever has to face each other and see the real impact our words have on each other. I fwe ever did, I believe this would be a whole different place to visit and converse.

Until that time, however, please don't mistake me for sisko..... ;)

uh huh. well you posted a lot without really answering my question. what's with the childish europe-hating? huh?

i know how much you love america, but i also know that you love it because it has treated you very well. from my understand you are quite wealthy. perhaps this is the root of your socialist hating ways. the republican government supports your lifestyle.

[QueenAdrock]

I believe that it is the greatest country on Earth and would like to see many more countries follow our ideals, ideas, and philosophies.


If Sweden was further south, I'd say they're the greatest country, because right now they're a little too cold for my taste. I like Social Democracy. Or Canada. Maybe I'm just partial to universal health care. United States needs to get some fuckin' socialized health care, because we're one of the only industrialized countries without it now. I need health care, because I'm getting kicked off mine on the 28th of this month and can't get it through my work. I could get it through my school, but that would mean I could only get health care services from campus, which is 30 miles away from where I live.

Sigh.

[sam i am]

uh huh. well you posted a lot without really answering my question. what's with the childish europe-hating? huh?

i know how much you love america, but i also know that you love it because it has treated you very well. from my understand you are quite wealthy. perhaps this is the root of your socialist hating ways. the republican government supports your lifestyle.

No. I'm NOT wealthy. I rent a home...have payments on two cars....and have four children, a wife, and an ex-wife to support. TRUST ME, I'm not wealthy.

That being said, I bash CERTAIN european ways of doing things and outlooks because I believe them and percieve them to be childish.

I think Blair's foreign policy has been top notch. I did not appreciate Schroeder's and France's foreign policy stands against the US. I think socialism, as practiced in much of Western Europe, deadens and stymies progression in the economies of the individual states where it is practiced and implemented. Have you seen the unemployment rates in much of Western Europe?

Anyhow, I'm entitled to my worldview just as you are. You, and your ilk, tend to dislike the US and it's policies and, especially, truly despise and hate Geworge W. Bush.

I guess the big difference for me is that I was terribly disappointed in much of Bill Clinton's ideologies and policies, but I remained faithful to him as the President of the United States, never joining in the whole impeachment stupidity involving him.

The level of incendiary rhetoric that spews forth regarding Bush is far and away worse than what was posited against Clinton, and it is unnerving as a fellow American to feel like a large part of it's citizens are SO against the current governing philosophy.

So.....to be clear....I DO like europeans. I have visited Italy and Spain in my lifetime and truly enjoyed my visits there. I am quite sure that the average European citizen is a wonderful individual. There are a FEW Europeans on this message board who are quite loquacious in their derogatory language towards the US, Bush, and anyone who is even moderately on a different side of the political spectrum from them : I have been called names and my credentials as a hsitorian and a capably intelligent human being have been called into question on numerous occasions. When that occurs, I fire back with all barrells blazing...I was taught that in the intellectual exchange of ideas, you respect and listen to the other side until they take the gloves off. Once they do, you are free to the same.

I have apologized before, and I will apologize again now, if I have offended or hurt others' feelings, but I am quite confident that I have NOT been the first to inflict harm in any situation that I have fired back on.

Hope that clarifies the situation and I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to do so, Zorra.

[sam i am]

If Sweden was further south, I'd say they're the greatest country, because right now they're a little too cold for my taste. I like Social Democracy. Or Canada. Maybe I'm just partial to universal health care. United States needs to get some fuckin' socialized health care, because we're one of the only industrialized countries without it now. I need health care, because I'm getting kicked off mine on the 28th of this month and can't get it through my work. I could get it through my school, but that would mean I could only get health care services from campus, which is 30 miles away from where I live.

Sigh.

Or....you could go and pay for your own health care when you need it...

Most doctors will take private payment plans.

[Documad]

The level of incendiary rhetoric that spews forth regarding Bush is far and away worse than what was posited against Clinton, and it is unnerving as a fellow American to feel like a large part of it's citizens are SO against the current governing philosophy.
I don't read all the crackpot websites, so I can't judge which president has been the subject of more venom. But I haven't heard Bush being accused of murder a la the ridiculous Vince Foster allegations, and his wife hasn't been accused of being a secret lesbian.

A large portion of US citizens ARE opposed to the philosophies of our currect elected leaders. And we love our country. We simply have different core beliefs. It's not that we've been misled by media or bloggers. It's unnerving to have a president who seems to care so little about the opinions of others.

[Documad]

Or....you could go and pay for your own health care when you need it...

Most doctors will take private payment plans.
Yeah. That's the answer. In fact, we should just get rid of all health insurance and have everyone pay for their own. I don't know why insurance was invented at all.

Of course, doctors have raised prices to artificially high levels because they know that medicare and the insurance companies will pay only a portion of what's billed. The only people paying the full price are those who try to pay for medical care privately.

[QueenAdrock]

Or....you could go and pay for your own health care when you need it...

Most doctors will take private payment plans.

Yeah, that worked out really well for one of my friends. She and her boyfriend were in South Carolina at a Dairy Queen when a car came out of nowhere and ran into the building, and hit her and her boyfriend. She was okay, but her boyfriend was forced into ICU for 3 days, had to have a metal rod inserted into his femur (which was fractured), and have a catheder in his brain to help with excess fluid. Do you know how much his "private payment plan" turned out to be, since he had no health insurance and the man who hit them ran? $200,000. No health insurance worked out well for him.

Not only that, I've got monthly medications that I need to have for anxiety attacks (not to mention my pill) that would cost about 5x the amount it does now if I didn't have health insurance. I can't just NOT have health insurance, it would be even more expensive if I went without it.

[synch]

That being said, I bash CERTAIN european ways of doing things and outlooks because I believe them and percieve them to be childish.

Making yourself look childish in the process.

There is no "european way of doing things". If one was to analyse the governments of the european nations you'd see that the only left wing government is in spain. Holland, Germany, France, Italy and (I don't care if Blair is left wing on paper, because he isn't kidding anyone) England all have predominantly right wing conservative governments.

You seem to take early to mid 20th century russia as a guideline of what europe is like.

[sam i am]

Making yourself look childish in the process.

There is no "european way of doing things". If one was to analyse the governments of the european nations you'd see that the only left wing government is in spain. Holland, Germany, France, Italy and (I don't care if Blair is left wing on paper, because he isn't kidding anyone) England all have predominantly right wing conservative governments.

You seem to take early to mid 20th century russia as a guideline of what europe is like.

Hmmm....interesting.

Ok....I'll revise all my earlier statements. Thanks for the correction...

Now, back to reality : I would agree that Spain's government is left-wing, NOW. Until the last round of elections, though, they weren't.

I do think, in all seriousness, that the way Europeans perceive left and right wing, socialist and conservative, is really very different from the way most Americans perceive it. A conservative, to me, IMO, is someone who is economically interested in lower taxes, capitalism, less government intrusion in the daily lives of citizens, for free trade, yet is environmentally sensitive and for as much liberty for each individual as possible while tempered with responsibility. Broad category, I know, but that is MY perception.

Maybe if we were all better at defining our terms prior to debate, we'd be more likely to understand each others' points of views, eh?

[Documad]

A conservative, to me, IMO, is someone who is economically interested in lower taxes, capitalism, less government intrusion in the daily lives of citizens, for free trade, yet is environmentally sensitive and for as much liberty for each individual as possible while tempered with responsibility. Broad category, I know, but that is MY perception.
We've discussed this a bunch of times, but I'll say it again. I agree with a lot of what you say, except that real "conservatives" aren't just for low taxes -- they want low taxes and low spending. Not record deficits.

And real "conservatives" do want less government instrusion into private lives of citizens -- not government imposed morality.

So again, Clinton was one of our better conservative presidents. Better than Reagan and W, that's for sure!

[sam i am]

We've discussed this a bunch of times, but I'll say it again. I agree with a lot of what you say, except that real "conservatives" aren't just for low taxes -- they want low taxes and low spending. Not record deficits.

And real "conservatives" do want less government instrusion into private lives of citizens -- not government imposed morality.

So again, Clinton was one of our better conservative presidents. Better than Reagan and W, that's for sure!

I'll agree with the low spending.

As for less intrusion in personal lives being a panacea, I'll agree that conservatives can be hypocritical. At least we admit it.

Generally, conservatives still want government intervention on issues like controlled substances, abortion, etc. ("moral" issues) without intrusion on economic freedom (aka "laissez-faire" capitalism).

I know it's a tough road to hoe, but it's more of the "traditional" American way....

[Funkaloyd]

conservatives can be hypocritical. At least we admit it.Who are "we"?

[Ali]

I did not appreciate Schroeder's and France's foreign policy stands against the US. Because they didn't want to help you invade Iraq? Any other reasons?
I think socialism, as practiced in much of Western Europe, deadens and stymies progression in the economies of the individual states where it is practiced and implemented. Have you seen the unemployment rates in much of Western Europe?Doesn't the privatisation of state-owned companies result in the shedding of jobs and concomitant increase in unemployment rates? How does Socialism cause more unemployment than Capitalism? Over-zealous Unions, maybe, but not 'Socialism', dude. Sometimes, I think you actually don't know what Socialism really is, except that it's bad. Subsidising unprofitable enterprises is a Socialist policy, so that makes your government as Socialist as any European government.
Anyhow, I'm entitled to my worldview just as you are. You, and your ilk, tend to dislike the US and it's policies and, especially, truly despise and hate Geworge W. Bush.Only those policies which result in the death and destruction and misery of innocent people in strategically-important countries, and his shunning of internationally-agreed environmental treaties. About the rest of his policies, we couldn't care less.
I guess the big difference for me is that I was terribly disappointed in much of Bill Clinton's ideologies and policies, but I remained faithful to him as the President of the United States, never joining in the whole impeachment stupidity involving him.You don't think he should have been impeached?
The level of incendiary rhetoric that spews forth regarding Bush is far and away worse than what was posited against Clinton, and it is unnerving as a fellow American to feel like a large part of it's citizens are SO against the current governing philosophy.quite... And why is that? Could it be that the current governing philosophy is WRONG EVIL or just plain BAD?
So.....to be clear....I DO like europeans. I have visited Italy and Spain in my lifetime and truly enjoyed my visits there. I am quite sure that the average European citizen is a wonderful individual. There are a FEW Europeans on this message board who are quite loquacious in their derogatory language towards the US, Bush, and anyone who is even moderately on a different side of the political spectrum from them : I have been called names and my credentials as a hsitorian and a capably intelligent human being have been called into question on numerous occasions. When that occurs, I fire back with all barrells blazing...I was taught that in the intellectual exchange of ideas, you respect and listen to the other side until they take the gloves off. Once they do, you are free to the same.That's not what Jesus said. You are a Christian, aren't you?

And you love calling people names and flaming liberals, don't act all pious, we've all seen it. You started on the French in one of your very first posts here and are suddenly all offended when America gets disrespected by an European. Isn't that HYPOCRISY? Am I allowed to accuse you of this, or is it name calling? Read your last few posts carefully before you answer that.

I have apologized before, and I will apologize again now, if I have offended or hurt others' feelings, but I am quite confident that I have NOT been the first to inflict harm in any situation that I have fired back on.You apologise a lot. Why not just be nice in the first place?

[sam i am]

Who are "we"?

conservatives.

[sam i am]

And you love calling people names and flaming liberals, don't act all pious, we've all seen it. You started on the French in one of your very first posts here and are suddenly all offended when America gets disrespected by an European. Isn't that HYPOCRISY? Am I allowed to accuse you of this, or is it name calling? Read your last few posts carefully before you answer that.

Actually, I didn't bring the French into it until post #18, so you are blatantly incorrect and facetious in your missive. My reason for doing so was to inveigh against French POLICIES. Are these not subject to scrutiny and query, in your opinion?

I am a HYPOCRITE! OK. Are we over it now? Name me one person who is alive who isn't a hypocrite in thought, word, deed, or action and I'll allow them the moral high ground on every single issue. You WON'T find anyone who is alive whose actions and words and deeds and thoughts ALWAYS match up. Every single one of us is a hypocrite. I just happen to be honest enough to admit it.

True story that I do get offended when a European attacks America. Just like you get offended when I attack Europeans. The big difference, IMO, is I have been clear and forthright in my displeasure and abhorrence of many European countries' POLICIES. I have stated for the record, over and over, that I am not anti-French or anti-German or anti-Europe, but rather am opposed to the policies and positions that are taken much of the time by these countries' leaders and that are followed by these countries' citizens. You feel the same about the US, so I guess we're both hypocrites.

You apologise a lot. Why not just be nice in the first place?

Finally, on the matter of being nice....I have reached out numerous times, ali, to you personally to have a "nice" discourse, even viewing your baby's pictures on the Sure Shot message board and complimenting you on your child's birth. Bet a lot of people on here would be surprised to know that I don't take the hurling of invenctive and your (and especially ace's) choice of words that attack me personally, personally. I have endeavored to keep the argumentation we engage in on these message boards to the topic at hand and have vigorously defended myself when I have been attacked.

Read ALL the posts here and see my post about our interactions being colored by the fact that we never have to see each other.

Then, come back and let's TALK...instead of hurling invective. K? :D :) :cool:

[Schmeltz]

Generally, conservatives still want government intervention on issues like controlled substances, abortion, etc. ("moral" issues) without intrusion on economic freedom (aka "laissez-faire" capitalism).


So conservatives are more about telling me what's alright to do with my own body, and less about helping me deal with losing my job. Is that right?

[sam i am]

So conservatives are more about telling me what's alright to do with my own body, and less about helping me deal with losing my job. Is that right?

Schmeltz...you don't even live here in the US, do you? So why worry about our policies?

As for economic issues, conservatives TEND to believe that the market is self-correcting. That when jobs are eliminated, new industries and jobs open up. Education and perserverance are the keys here. No one begrudges the auo industry it's right to exist, but if you believe that industry is simply there to provide jobs, then you should be out picketing for the right of return of all those horse buggy manufacturers who were put out of business by the invention and innovation of the internal combustion engine. Or maybe you think we should bring back all those stenographer and typewriter related jobs that went away with the introduction of the computer?

Should government get involved in industries where the marketplace has changed so as to preserve jobs?

Let's see what you think.....

[Schmeltz]

I think the problem with viewing "the market" as self-correcting (let alone as some homogenous, monolithic system instead of the hugely complex and variable collection of forces that actually comprise any national economy, let alone the planet's) is that it ignores the fact that the market is a human creation that exists largely on the basis of our own whims. New jobs and industries don't just open up on their own, they're dependent on a wealth of purely human factors - largesse, patronage, innovation, opportunity, demand - that can't really be quantified in purely objective terms.

Anyway, that's somewhat beside the point. Why do conservatives feel that the economy (or the market or whatever) should be free from regulation, but people's personal lives and behaviour should not?

As for why I should worry about your policies - well, your government has shown a marked tendency to go around bombing the shit out of other countries for no reason whatsoever. I think everybody in the world ought to be concerned about your policies, if only for their own safety.

[sam i am]

I think the problem with viewing "the market" as self-correcting (let alone as some homogenous, monolithic system instead of the hugely complex and variable collection of forces that actually comprise any national economy, let alone the planet's) is that it ignores the fact that the market is a human creation that exists largely on the basis of our own whims. New jobs and industries don't just open up on their own, they're dependent on a wealth of purely human factors - largesse, patronage, innovation, opportunity, demand - that can't really be quantified in purely objective terms.

Anyway, that's somewhat beside the point. Why do conservatives feel that the economy (or the market or whatever) should be free from regulation, but people's personal lives and behaviour should not?

As for why I should worry about your policies - well, your government has shown a marked tendency to go around bombing the shit out of other countries for no reason whatsoever. I think everybody in the world ought to be concerned about your policies, if only for their own safety.

I actually DO believe in a limited amount of regulation in order to take the edge off the most egregious examples of fraud or monopoly. I support the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, which keeps the monopolization of sectors of the industry from occurring without strict government scrutiny.

Outside of this, admittedly important, watchdog role, the Federal government should be as limited as possible. Education, as I stated above, should be kept to a State and local level to ensure that accountability is key for dollars spent and invested, especially in the areas of research and development and the education of children in the key sectors of engineering and technology.

BTW, what do you think of the results of the Iraqi referendum the other day?

[Schmeltz]

Yes, that government is best which governs least, etc. But it's shortsighted to consider only formal regulation when economies are governed by so many forces that regulate their behaviour by acting on them informally. Human behaviour regulates economics as surely as legislation or taxation, but in ways vastly more difficult to quantify. When people start talking about legislating human behaviour, trouble's afoot.

I think it's great that the Iraqi Constitution was ratified and that democratic policies are gaining momentum in that shattered, destitute, strife-torn, anarchic third-world battleground.

[sam i am]

Yes, that government is best which governs least, etc. But it's shortsighted to consider only formal regulation when economies are governed by so many forces that regulate their behaviour by acting on them informally. Human behaviour regulates economics as surely as legislation or taxation, but in ways vastly more difficult to quantify. When people start talking about legislating human behaviour, trouble's afoot.

I think it's great that the Iraqi Constitution was ratified and that democratic policies are gaining momentum in that shattered, destitute, strife-torn, anarchic third-world battleground.

We're in complete agreement on this thread. Congratulations! :p

[synch]

Hmmm....interesting.

Ok....I'll revise all my earlier statements. Thanks for the correction...

Now, back to reality : I would agree that Spain's government is left-wing, NOW. Until the last round of elections, though, they weren't.I know, and although it's a teensy bit off topic you know why they have a left wing government now right?

I do think, in all seriousness, that the way Europeans perceive left and right wing, socialist and conservative, is really very different from the way most Americans perceive it. A conservative, to me, IMO, is someone who is economically interested in lower taxes, capitalism, less government intrusion in the daily lives of citizens, for free trade, yet is environmentally sensitive and for as much liberty for each individual as possible while tempered with responsibility. Broad category, I know, but that is MY perception.Do you realise that apart from the wish for lower taxes and capitalism you've described the exact opposite of the Bush administration?

Maybe if we were all better at defining our terms prior to debate, we'd be more likely to understand each others' points of views, eh?Perhaps ;)

[Ali]

Actually, I didn't bring the French into it until post #18, so you are blatantly incorrect and facetious in your missive. My reason for doing so was to inveigh against French POLICIES. Are these not subject to scrutiny and query, in your opinion?

I am a HYPOCRITE! OK. Are we over it now? Name me one person who is alive who isn't a hypocrite in thought, word, deed, or action and I'll allow them the moral high ground on every single issue. You WON'T find anyone who is alive whose actions and words and deeds and thoughts ALWAYS match up. Every single one of us is a hypocrite. I just happen to be honest enough to admit it.

True story that I do get offended when a European attacks America. Just like you get offended when I attack Europeans. The big difference, IMO, is I have been clear and forthright in my displeasure and abhorrence of many European countries' POLICIES. I have stated for the record, over and over, that I am not anti-French or anti-German or anti-Europe, but rather am opposed to the policies and positions that are taken much of the time by these countries' leaders and that are followed by these countries' citizens. You feel the same about the US, so I guess we're both hypocrites.

Finally, on the matter of being nice....I have reached out numerous times, ali, to you personally to have a "nice" discourse, even viewing your baby's pictures on the Sure Shot message board and complimenting you on your child's birth. Bet a lot of people on here would be surprised to know that I don't take the hurling of invenctive and your (and especially ace's) choice of words that attack me personally, personally. I have endeavored to keep the argumentation we engage in on these message boards to the topic at hand and have vigorously defended myself when I have been attacked.

Read ALL the posts here and see my post about our interactions being colored by the fact that we never have to see each other.

Then, come back and let's TALK...instead of hurling invective. K? :D :) :cool:
Well, as I've stated before, I am opposed to the policies of the US which I perceive to be unjust or destructive or greedy or environmentally uncouth, or whatever. I am also not predisposed to the people who support the administration which implements and enforces these policies. When you defend these policies, sam, I attack you, as their champion, not as a person. You like a nice enough person and have said kind things to me (I appreciated your comment about Mr Ferrier, even if I didn't respond in that thread) and it is not you who I am attacking, but the policies you support. Maybe I was a nasty bitch to you when you first arrived and I apologise (I assume you've noticed that I don't call you names any more) but you do support an opposing POV to mine and I can't say that I agree with you just to be nice. This is politics. There's nothing nice about politics.

[sam i am]

Well, as I've stated before, I am opposed to the policies of the US which I perceive to be unjust or destructive or greedy or environmentally uncouth, or whatever. I am also not predisposed to the people who support the administration which implements and enforces these policies. When you defend these policies, sam, I attack you, as their champion, not as a person. You like a nice enough person and have said kind things to me (I appreciated your comment about Mr Ferrier, even if I didn't respond in that thread) and it is not you who I am attacking, but the policies you support. Maybe I was a nasty bitch to you when you first arrived and I apologise (I assume you've noticed that I don't call you names any more) but you do support an opposing POV to mine and I can't say that I agree with you just to be nice. This is politics. There's nothing nice about politics.

Fair enough. I'll continue to not take it personally as long as we both agree that it's all about opposing POVs and politics, not personalities, K?

Peace out... :cool: