Altruism doesn't work

[guerillaGardner]

It's a plain and simple fact that nothing in this world is going to change for the better until we can find a way for the masses to get quick gratification in the process.

If only altruism had the power and appeal of selfishness, greed, laziness, anger, desire, hate and fear. Yet its altruism that we expect to do all the good work for us when if we could learn to harness the natural self centred urge of humanity it would achieve way more.

Perhaps we should market debt relief as a way to get the starving masses off of our conscience and out of our hair instead of trying to arouse apathy up into empathy. Perhaps we should market wind turbines as a way to cheap electricity rather than being good to the environment. Perhaps we are trying too hard to appeal to the wrong emotions in humanity (the good ones) and that is why positive change seems to be such an uphill struggle.

A movement for positive change riding on self interest rather than altruism could be unstoppable. Don't tell people to grow their own food, recycle, compost, re-use and repair in order to reduce their footprint on the earth. Tell them to do it so that they can escape the rat race, sack their bosses, give up the 9 to 5. Don't get people to stop using their cars out of goodwill. Get them to do it because we want to get our arses out of the Middle East and leave them all to it. If it works out helping the environment in the process then it doesn't matter what reason it was done for.

The fact is that most of the things we should be doing for the planet and for all living beings on it can be of direct personal benefit to ourselves but we just don't sell it that way. Any thoughts?

[yeahwho]

I understand exactly what your saying. Action is the key to change, true real change is not encouraged anymore in the US. Most of our leaders would like to take care of us....but increasingly, to me, it is becoming obvious they are incapable of taking care of anybody who isn't already filthy rich.

A very enlightening film about this state of affairs is available and I highly recommend it. The Corporation (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/). Since most of us are entertainment junkies to the point of our own detriment, we might as well have a look see at how the corporate world wants you to behave.

I'm with you! Thanks for posting. (y)

[sam i am]

Believe it or not, I'm mostly with ya too.

Altruism is a great ideal, but implementation is a mother-fucker....

Anyhow, Machiavellian machinations to achieve the desired results may be the only way to go....

[guerillaGardner]

So who is up for starting a new political party with me - like a cross between the green party and the British National Party? Here are it's policies:

1) Lets all buy home grown, organic produce from small local farms so that the stinking foreigners and the fat cats don't get our money.

2) Or if you want to stick your fingers up at the greedy, subsidy swallowing small local farmer grow your own food.

3) The energy and utility companies are taking the piss. Lets build our own wind turbines so that they don't get our money and no other bastard gets to use our electricity.

4) Lets force prisoners to grow their own food, make their own clothes, build and maintain their own prisons so that we don't have to pay for them. (Thus training people on the bottom rungs of society, giving them new skills and another lifestyle choice when they are freed).

5) Bring back national service to keep the kids off of the street. Except make it a green one, not a military one.

I am in danger of making this post too long. Just for fun - any other policy ideas?

[woodenflower]

Altruisim can and does work but not that often. You can feed the homeless, give money to charitys, etc., but most of the people recivin altruism will not change in time for the altruist to witness (change is a lifelong struggle). I hate to say it, but these problems are complex and depend a lot on the individual. For example, a man who is homeless will remain homeless until he is able to pull themselves out of it. For, many homeless people, (at least the those that i come into contact with) are incapable of doing this. This can be due to all sorts of reasons such as drug adiction, schystsofrenea (sp), laziness, etc. That is why the altruist has such a hard job, and will probably see more failure than success in his/her line of work.

[Ace42X]

schystsofrenea (sp),

Schizophrenia

Literally "The schism of the head"

[ericg]

it's a damn shame for history to show that though their dream was true, a person of sound measures is often short lived ...
the real question is when it's come down to it, where have those with the wherewithal and actual propensity been?
B.E., or not to have B.E..
there should be no question about it...

even though it was 'under the radar'... charlie rose recognized last night for the first time (yaeeeeeeeeeee bravo) that it's up to the 'private sector' where... everything's concerned at this point. he was mainly speaking about benign energy for starters. his guest was george clooney, who has a way of putting things right, but like rose, is far and in between when the show's over.

the endless task of stating the OBVIOUS will send me to my grave, but with so many goddamn fools running the mill, shit seems hopeless when you're not in a position of physical wherewithal and the only people who know better still don't consumate it.

'they know what is what but they don't know what is what they just strut, what the fuck.'

i'll say it again. any one of hollywood's famous could fund moveon.org for 5 years without blinking an eye, and yet the whole country hasn't done shit to stock, manifest, and mandate what's right.

as soon as we can get a little good reason and some fucking initiative in order to get the utter incompetence and overt corruption out of the system, it's up to B.E., euthenics and eugenics...

check out www.thebigask.com and www.progressreport.org if you haven't already.

[Ali]

it's a damn shame for history to show that though their dream was true, a person of sound measures is often short lived ...
the real question is when it's come down to it, where have those with the wherewithal and actual propensity been?
B.E., or not to have B.E..
there should be no question about it...

even though it was 'under the radar'... charlie rose recognized last night for the first time (yaeeeeeeeeeee bravo) that it's up to the 'private sector' where... everything's concerned at this point. he was mainly speaking about benign energy for starters. his guest was george clooney, who has a way of putting things right, but like rose, is far and in between when the show's over.

the endless task of stating the OBVIOUS will send me to my grave, but with so many goddamn fools running the mill, shit seems hopeless when you're not in a position of physical wherewithal and the only people who know better still don't consumate it.

'they know what is what but they don't know what is what they just strut, what the fuck.'

i'll say it again. any one of hollywood's famous could fund moveon.org for 5 years without blinking an eye, and yet the whole country hasn't done shit to stock, manifest, and mandate what's right.

as soon as we can get a little good reason and some fucking initiative in order to get the utter incompetence and overt corruption out of the system, it's up to B.E., euthenics and eugenics...

check out www.thebigask.com and www.progressreport.org if you haven't already. Speaking of schizophrenia... it's Mr Word Salad! :p

I like # 4 but you'll find that most prisons do make the inmates work to maintain the prison, grow food, make clothes, etc.

Generating your own power with wind turbines alone won't work. They are expensive to design, build, maintain and you will always need a backup system, such as loads and loads of ecologically unfriendly batteries, or a Grid for when there's not enough or too much wind.

[ericg]

You don't miss a thing when you're missing it all, do you.

[guerillaGardner]

Generating your own power with wind turbines alone won't work. They are expensive to design, build, maintain and you will always need a backup system, such as loads and loads of ecologically unfriendly batteries, or a Grid for when there's not enough or too much wind.

In my post I used the example of wind power for brevity. Between wind, solar, passive solar, biogas and greater fuel efficiency we can cover a large part of our demand for energy.

So I really think we should be adopting a multiple source energy system utilising what has been underused. Unfortunately most people narrow the energy debate to a choice between wind and nuclear, as though it's just one or the other.

Perhaps no one renewable source can cover demand on its own but a combination of all would be much more efficient.

I'd like to see fossil and nuclear fuel there just to cover the shortfall that can't be generated by a combination of renewables, gradually being phased out as the efficiency of renewables increases.

Good architecture can create homes that heat and cool themselves. Small wall mounted wind turbines are now on the market that are fairly quiet and efficient and can fit on your roof. There's a chain of roadside cafes called The Wild Bean Cafe that is using them. In a few years it reasonable to assume these might become viable for residential use as the technology is obviously developing well.

[Ali]

In my post I used the example of wind power for brevity. Between wind, solar, passive solar, biogas and greater fuel efficiency we can cover a large part of our demand for energy.

So I really think we should be adopting a multiple source energy system utilising what has been underused. Unfortunately most people narrow the energy debate to a choice between wind and nuclear, as though it's just one or the other.

Perhaps no one renewable source can cover demand on its own but a combination of all would be much more efficient.

I'd like to see fossil and nuclear fuel there just to cover the shortfall that can't be generated by a combination of renewables, gradually being phased out as the efficiency of renewables increases.

Good architecture can create homes that heat and cool themselves. Small wall mounted wind turbines are now on the market that are fairly quiet and efficient and can fit on your roof. There's a chain of roadside cafes called The Wild Bean Cafe that is using them. In a few years it reasonable to assume these might become viable for residential use as the technology is obviously developing well.
It's all more expensive than fossil-fuel-powered electricity.

Who's going to pay for it?

[guerillaGardner]

It's all more expensive than fossil-fuel-powered electricity.

Who's going to pay for it?

What do you base that on?

[yeahwho]

In most cases where altruism doesn't work, Altoids will.

[Ali]

What do you base that on?Reality. Producing electricity on a local level costs far more than mass-producing it centrally and then transferring it on wires. If the other way was cheaper, then they'd be doing it already, believe me.

Have you ever actually tried living "off the grid"? Completely without access to Mains electricity, gas bottles, coal, firewood, etc. For all four seasons?

If you did, then a) how did you keep warm, refrigerate your food, pump water, cook, see at night, etc. b) who paid for all the generating equipment and who maintained it through winter, storms, etc. c) how much more hassle and expense was it than paying the electricity company?

How are you going to convince people to pay more and make more effort for less reliable electricity? Some people have jobs and mouths to feed and don't have the time or money to generate their own power. I'm not saying that Alternative Energy is a bad thing, but I have looked very closely into the viability of producing one's own power and it's simply too much cost and effort for a less relaible energy supply. The only time it makes sense is when you are in an area not served by the Grid.

Small scale, locally based electricity generation is expensive and unreliable. Leave it to the big companies and hope that they follow Norway's (http://www.lbst.de/e/Projekte/NHEG.htm) example.

[guerillaGardner]

I'm going to take some time to explore what you say Ali. You haven't actually said anything that convinces me that renewables are more expensive but I'm not discounting what you say out of hand either.

I'm going to go look for references on the subject and I will get back into that discussion on a separate thread but I'd like to get back to this one - the idea that changing the world for the better has relied too much on altruism and that real change can only come about when those expected to help drive the change begin to benefit personally or feel some personal need satisfied, whether it's to vent their natural stupidity or to see some improvement in their lifestyle.

My intent in starting this thread was to explore the idea that we could identify a much more powerful driving force for change.

[ericg]

Enormously overt corruption sabotaging the world and it's resources in every possible way, size, shape and form...
An obviously illegitimate government and war for oil.
Apathy all around.
Mass murder.
Pollution/ global warming precipitating havoc on the environment.
Inhumane conditions around the world.

The list grows ten fold every day.
And you need a greater driving force???
Will coffee with that biodiesal do it?

If people put their heads in a container full of mosquitos instead of in the sand, they may begin to minimally understand how the vicious cycle of conditions and the hellishly wrought state of reality a criminal public's corrupt oiligarchy manifests.

Even though more are being made for adult viewing, children's stories haven't seemed to get through... but here:
Evil controls the world...
It doesn't get any more obvious and simple than to say in order to stop evil oiligarchy is with the proliferation of benign energy, just for beginners.

Of course, in this story, the parasitic, leacherous evil has reigned for so long, people don't know what's what anymore as they've acclimated to it oh so well. The damage is done and growing at an uncontrollable pace. But there's humans still needing 3 interpreters when the weatherman tells...

[guerillaGardner]

The list grows ten fold every day.
And you need a greater driving force???
Will coffee with that biodiesal do it?

No but I'll have a nice vinaigrette with that word salad.

Unfortunately the worse things get the less likely we are to do anything as bad situations can breed apathy and hopelessness.

One thing that will help to drive change is to make people understand that change is possible. It's the belief that there's nothing we can do that makes people no longer care.

[ericg]

"The tellman says, 'Where ever you look there's something to be seen.'"




Focus.

[guerillaGardner]

"The tellman says, 'Where ever you look there's something to be seen.'"




Focus.

Huh?