Abortions for under 16's - your view?

[TonsOfFun]

k, there is a debate in the UK at the moment cus of some hysterical parent under 16 had an abortion without her knowledge. So it's being bought up against a judge where he/she will decide if under 16's have any rights to privacy?

All of the news stations I have watch have a poll and it seems the nation beleives a parent should be told by the doctor or person in the medical profession that they should tell the parent even against the under 16's wishes. The polls I would imagine are not scenitific.

I cannot agree with this notion. To me, it seems the human rights we enjoy in this country is part of the doctor - patient relationship has a right to privacy. I know rape issues then the doctor has to inform the authorities which I don't have a problem and that is a given and a fair way to go around things. The thing I would prefer to see to happen would be the daughter to talk to her parents, councilling given and if they girl still doesn't want her parent to know then that is her right. Just because they are under 16, doesn't mean they don't have any rights does it? Putting a doctor in that position where a girl to to him/her for help and then goes against her wishes seems wrong and unfair and against rights you are automatically born with.

Am I alone in this opinion? Cus I cannot see much of an argument to say they don't, especailly with a doctor being put in that position cus it could do more harm than good if the girl doesn't feel it's safe to go to the doctor.

btw, I would obviously prefer to see no teenage or unplanned pregnancy but this is not the question I am asking. Purely, does an under 16 have a right to privacy? And if you think not, why not? What about where you live?

[FearandLoathing]

A teenager, like an adult, should be able to get an abortion without parental consent or notification. If someone wants their relatives to know about an abortion, they'll tell them. Family relations should not be dictated by the government.

And I hope people don't start in on that 'Kids don't know what they're doing' shit, because kids have as much right as anybody to bodily integrity. And hell, I think I know what the hell I'm doing, and I'm under sixteen (I don't want to be anecdotal, I'm just trying to say the 'they're too immature' argument is fallacious).

[TonsOfFun]

^good point. I always believe young people aren't given enough credit.

I'm male but was a virgin at 16, but if I got a girl pregnant under 16 I think I could of told my parents. If you don't wanna tell your parents then there is a reason.

[ms.peachy]

I don't support the notification requirement. If there was good clear communication between the parent(s) and child, I imagine the likelihood of an under-16 getting into the situation would be drastically reduced in the first place.

I do however think that there should be an after-care system in place to support the girl (mentally) /young woman (biologically) following the procedure; some counseling to help her understand where she's been and where she's going, so that there is no repeat. In the original case that this current action is based on, the 14 year old was pregnant again like 6 months later :rolleyes:

[ASsman]

Hmmm, I don't know how I feel about this. Parents have rights too, I would be pissed the fuck off if I didn't know of somebody pulling a dead baby out of my daughter, might take out the old .45 for this one.

The problem is where to draw the line, how is it that parents must be notified of stupid shit like school grades, but when it comes to ABORTING A FETUS, oh we should probably leave them out of this one just cause it's embarassing to the girl or whatever excuse it used.

But thats just me growing up in a close knit hispanic family, white people are way different. Spaced out from their kids, parents say good morning kids say "whatever". Shame.

And if their body they should be able to get married, drink, and do many other "it's my body I'll do what I want with it", like take up prostitution in Germany. Just remembered this is a UK issue, not sure of the drinking age there.

[ms.peachy]

I don't know that it's about being 'embarrassing' for the girl. What if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, but she isn't ready to face her family with that? Incest? What if the parents are abusive? What if they kicked her out of the house if they found out?

You are right that it's different in a 'close' family, but I don't think that's anything to do with being Hispanic or white or black or purple.

[ASsman]

You are right that it's different in a 'close' family, but I don't think that's anything to do with being Hispanic or white or black or purple.
Generally it does atleast from my experiences, perhaps its just Chicago specific, but thats for another day.
-edit- Its probably just me seeing it in economical classes, and it being that the majority of rich people here are white, or "well off".

I don't know that it's about being 'embarrassing' for the girl. What if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, but she isn't ready to face her family with that? Incest? What if the parents are abusive? What if they kicked her out of the house if they found out?
Buh, turns out hurting the good parents and bad kids, don't see how it can all be leveled out. I understand those cases but what about every other time, arg headache.

[racer5.0stang]

I guess no one wants to be responsible these days.

The parents don't want to know what their KIDS are doing.

The KIDS don't want to tell the parents.

Maybe if people started taking responsibility for their actions we wouldn't be worried about if a 10 year old should be able to abort their child.

Its like Eminem said, "Apparently you ain't parents..."

[ms.peachy]

Well, I would like to be notified

This is their life, which you helped create. If my child was under such duress your damn straight I would put my arms out for them.

I have yet to have a kid, so I don't know how itchy of a subject this is for those with teenagers though, I'm supposing I would react appropriately.

I'm going to try to educate my kids on all the "adults only" information at a reasonable age. Those who live in denial with what kids get into are usually the ones the kids are least likely to talk to with serious issues concerning their lives.

like ASsman said...this is a serious health issue, not a D in Home Economics

I certainly concur that it's serious, absolutely. This is why I believe firmly that it needs to be coupled with serious counseling.

I have got a little bit of an insight, in that I work with teenagers, many of whom are from troubled homes. Some of their stories would absolutely break your heart. For example, I have one 14 year old girl whose mom is a junkie. Mom pulled her daughter's arm out of the socket trying to wrestle the girl's wallet away from her, because the girl had gotten some birthday money from her grandparents, and Mom wanted to go buy some smack.

So is that a mom that could ofer love and support to a girl who finds herself pregnant, do you think?

[ASsman]

yah, clearly its not just a no they shouldnt or yes they should. Either decision requires more steps and measures to be taken and put inplace. Confidetiality beig a good incentive for teenagers like some crack addicts, then you get them to trust professionals and somehow get them into counseling and spill the rest of the beans. Obviously if you aren't comftorable telling you're parents your royal fuck-up something is wrong, perhaps not serious but still.

I would also like to see some pushing of these kids to tell their parents, not too much but some, with counseling of course. Shit grow some balls, you got knocked up now stop beeing pussies and fess up to it, unless it wasn't your imaturity or stupidity that you got you dicked.

[SobaViolence]

cause and effect. the sad truth of it all.




i wish we could monitor and give out parenting liscences...

[ASsman]

cause and effect. the sad truth of it all.




i wish we could monitor and give out parenting liscences...
That has been in my mind the entire time. But NOOOO they can do what they want with their body, so whats the difference between making people in a science lab and making people in some trailer park whilst drunk.

Grr, you can do what you want with your body, just don't bring someone else to join you in you're misery and I think giving birth is where that is drawn.

[sam i am]

With rights come responsibilities.

If you want the right, take responsibility for exercising that right (whatever right we are discussing).

Responsibility entails giving back some for the rights you enjoy.

In the US, a child does not have "rights" like voting until 18, driving until 16 or 18, drinking alcohol until 21, self-determination until they are financially responsible for themselves.

Until you can support yourself outside of your parents (i.e., a car, a place to live where you pay for it, etc.) - you do not have "rights."

[TonsOfFun]

As far as I'm aware if a child goes to the doctor for an abortion after a rape then doctor has to legally inform the authorities - ie the police. And the police take over and they have specailly trained councelling. An under 16 who consented to sex and became pregnant should be able to get simular councelling outside their family if that is their wish.

Under 16's have rights, just because they cannot vote or drink legally doesn't mean the shouldn't be allowed to have basic human rights to privacy. The same could be said for beating your child. A child doesn't have rights yet so if he/she fucks up on his/her home work, they deserve a good beating until they learn. I was smacked a couple of times as a child, yes, I'm cool with that and it was accepted. It was also accepted in my parents school life to be hit with a cane by a teacher. Who agrees with that now? We have evolve because we recognise these rights and have better ways of dealing with it. Councelling!

Like I say, the majority of girls I would believe would tell their parents. Even if it takes coucelling. Most families I think/hope are good enough to be able to face each other on such a serious level - some of you have got to give kids credit for this, they ain't all glue sniffers into petty crime. That is like saying all black people commit crimes. Just because a teenager ignores their parents in the morning, is not the same as facing a serious issue. I don't see how they compare. A teenager generally has the brains to see if this is a serious issue. I would also think an under 16 that is able to go to the doctor first hasn't seriously considered telling their parents first. Some children just ignore the issue so much they become too far pregnant to even have a choice. I think, councelling should be available the moment this issue accurs. Most parents are not trained councellers and obviously have an emotional attachment to the situation.

Eminem is referring to those who blame someone else for the problem they have with what their children have done.

I'm also saying, that a doctor shouldn't have that responsibility and it shouldn't be law because a child wouldn't trust that doctor again. Some of you are bringing other issues into this debate. The under 16 should be supported, should be able to tell some one. And if the only person she can tell is a doctor because she doesn't feel she can tell her parents then the under 16 should be referred to councelling before just going off and saying "Mr & Mrs Smith, you're daughter is pregnant, now deal with it". If that happened the daughter wouldn't trust a doctor again.

If the issue was; there should be more help readily available to women, be it under or over 16 (or what the age of consent is in your country), then I agree. I would hope this is improving all the time. Acting against what I see as basic human rights to privacy because they are under 16, I disagree. They are other ways to deal with it. I can see more problems if this became law that I can now with it being the other way. If I child felt she couldn't tell anyone and thought her life was over. A consequence of that might be, to take her life. Extreme yes, but I'm sure it would happen. Then someone would say "if only she could of told someone, she might of been scared of what her parents might do WHEN (not if) they found out".

I would also believe any judge would rule against such a law anyway. I would be really surprised if it did pass as law. I'm done now.

[QueenAdrock]

Permission from parents first. That's what we do in America.

I saw a bumpersticker I liked today: "How can you trust me with a child if you can't trust me with a choice?" Excellent point.

[sam i am]

Permission from parents first. That's what we do in America.

I saw a bumpersticker I liked today: "How can you trust me with a child if you can't trust me with a choice?" Excellent point.

Nice.

[z-boy]

I ate fried abortion for breakfast this morning

[QueenAdrock]

I bet it tasted like sausage.

[FearandLoathing]

Well, I would like to be notified

This is their life, which you helped create. If my child was under such duress your damn straight I would put my arms out for them.

I have yet to have a kid, so I don't know how itchy of a subject this is for those with teenagers though, I'm supposing I would react appropriately.

I'm going to try to educate my kids on all the "adults only" information at a reasonable age. Those who live in denial with what kids get into are usually the ones the kids are least likely to talk to with serious issues concerning their lives.

like ASsman said...this is a serious health issue, not a D in Home Economics
Okay, let's say you'll be a good parent if you become one; what about the others who aren't good parents? I'm assuming here that people with good relationships with their parents would feel comfortable in talking to their parents about something like this. If they don't want to, there's probably (not necessarily, but I'd say probably) some bad stuff happening in that family.

Not necessarily abuse, either. From my experience, there are lots of kids who couldn't approach their parents about something like this because it would cause uproar. I couldn't approach my parents about it, even though my household is not an abusive one (it could become one quick, if I told them about my hypothetical pregnancy).

[milleson]

What exactly is the matter at hand? The right to privacy or underage girls having abortions with out parental notification?

I believe that as with any medical procedure involving a minor, the parents should be notified in the event of an abortion. This is not an invasion of privacy, but an attempt to insure the health and well-being of the minor.

[Documad]

I'm as pro-abortion as you can get, but if I had a teenage daughter, I would want to know. Yes, I would hope that we had a close enough relationship that she would tell me, But if my daughter didn't tell me, I would not want a doctor to do even a minor medical procedure without my knowledge.

In my state (in the US) a minor can't have an abortion unless BOTH parents consent. There is a judicial override, so the minor can go to a judge and get the judge to sign off on the abortion without parents. I used to see a lot of those hearings--we used to get a few minors a day in Minneapolis who needed the judge's permission. The abortion clinic did a nice job of having staff come with them, and law students would help run the girls through the hearing. The hearing was held in the judge's office instead of in a courtroom. The judge would ask just a few questions to make sure the girl was aware of what she was doing. I only saw one girl get turned down and it was because the judge thought the boyfriend was pressuring her and the judge wanted her to come back in another week if she still wanted one.

Often the girl had the mom's permission but they didn't know where dad was or they didn't want to tell him.

[Medellia]

I believe that as with any medical procedure involving a minor, the parents should be notified in the event of an abortion. This is not an invasion of privacy, but an attempt to insure the health and well-being of the minor.
But if a minor is in an abusive family and she was forced to tell her parents wouldn't her health and well-being be in danger? In a loving family a girl wouldn't have to worry about her safety in that situation and would be less likely to be in that situation in the first place. If we lived in a perfect world al parents would be notifeid if their daughter had an abortion. Hell, in a perfect world there would be no abortion. Alas we don't live in a perfect world. If there was some way to ensure that a girl wouldn't be beaten by her parents for it, then parental notification would be preferable. But that won't happen.

[TonsOfFun]

The issue is (for me) an under 16's right to privacy.

I don't believe a judge has all the tools and training to over rule a decision such as this. It shouldn't get to a legal process and still be the girls choice but that choice should be made through the correct way. Via counseling from someone who isn't emotionally attached if the under 16 doesn't want that. We have human rights to protect ourselves. I think we have the skills to be able to help the under 16 make the correct decision without just putting everything onto their parents.

I do see a lot of your points but I don't agree (to some). The rights of an individual is still a higher priority in my opinion, than to a parents right to know their under 16's business if it's against her wishes.

Although, I wasn't aware that right to privacy on this issue was not law in the US... So I dunno what my view would have been here if it hadn't been law here to have that right for the last 9 years or so.

[Ali]

I know rape issues then the doctor has to inform the authorities which I don't have a problem and that is a given and a fair way to go around things. Isn't the age of consent for girls 16 in the UK?

Then isn't sex with any girl under the age of 16 statutory rape?

So, aren't doctors obliged to report the rape, even if not the abortion.

[ChrisLove]

In Britain recently, a family killed a young man for going out with the daughter of the family because it brought dishonour to the family. Imagine what they might have done to both him and the daughter if she had been underage, pregnant and wanted an abortion.

In many cultures, horrific and brutal violence against women for bringing dishonour to a family is commonplace. While this is relatively uncommon in Britain it is not unknown and by its nature such crime is very much under reported (so potentially it is more prevalent then one might imagine). How anyone could seriously say that a parent, who could potentially be extremely abusive, has a right to know if their daughter is pregnant is beyond me.

My view is that if the parents were likely to respond to news that their daughter wanted an abortion in a positive way they probably would have already been told without the need for state intervention.

Also parents might oppose abortion on religious grounds and informing them is therefore likely to result in unhelpful religious dogma to an already difficult situation.

[ASsman]

So 16 is it, what about 15, 14,13, etc. What makes 16 special. Is it the age of consent? If it is I see nothing wrong with the parents not being notified.

[TonsOfFun]

Isn't the age of consent for girls 16 in the UK?

Then isn't sex with any girl under the age of 16 statutory rape?

So, aren't doctors obliged to report the rape, even if not the abortion.

Sorry, I think I did say somewhere else - 'an under 16 who consents to sex'. When I mean rape I mean attacked and unconsented sex


As far as I'm aware if a child goes to the doctor for an abortion after a rape then doctor has to legally inform the authorities - ie the police. And the police take over and they have specailly trained councelling. An under 16 who consented to sex and became pregnant should be able to get simular councelling outside their family if that is their wish.

Ok, I see the confusion. It's a different issue. Unconsented sex to consented sex whatever the age.

I mentioned rape because some referenced or said something somewhere that the doctor doesn't have to tell someone when I thought they did.

Hope that clears it up.

But this is not a rape issue in the unconsented sense. Which is why I tried to keep clear of it, but I always feel I have to clarify things before they come up on this board because of the range of views people have - not a bad thing but I don't want to confuse the issue like that.

[Ali]

As far as I understand, sex with a girl under the age of 16 is rape, consenting or not.

What is 'statutory rape'? (http://www.avert.org/teensex.htm)
If you are under the age of consent and you choose to have sex with someone who is over the age of consent, then they can be charged with the crime of 'statutory rape'. Some countries have different names for this crime, and some states in the US call it 'unlawful sexual penetration' or just 'rape'.And in the United Kingdom, it's 16 (http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm).

So, a girl who comes in for an abortion and who is under the age of 16 has, technically, been raped and the person who does the abortion is required to report it.

Here's some more from that site:

So what does the age of consent mean?
The age of consent is the age when the law says you can agree to have sex. In most countries, until you reach this age you can't legally have sex with anyone, however old they are. Sometimes the law is slightly different when the partners are of a similar age, but there is usually still a minimum age below which sex is always illegal.

But our parents say it's okay. . .
That doesn't make any difference - your parents don't make the law. Teens can't get around the laws for smoking, drinking or driving because their parents say so, and it's the same with this. The age of consent laws always apply, whether you're in love, or you've been together for ages, or you've had sex before.

But it's no-one else's business. Why do we have these laws?
Although many young people are mature enough to know how to deal with it if someone tries to get them to have sex, some teens are not grown up enough to know what to do. Age of consent laws are there to stop young people from being exploited by adults.And there you have it. These laws were introduced to protect children from adults, not to take away anybody's rights.

A girl who comes in for an abortion, who is under the age of 16, should be allowed to decide who should be informed. If she's too scared to tell her parents and has nobody else to tell, then she is obviously in need of some sort of social assistance and should be referred to a Social Worker, or councillor. But to do the abortion and send her off without telling ANYBODY... that's not right. She will need a lot of support after the procedure and she will need SOMEONE to talk to, even if it's not a member of her family.

[TonsOfFun]

I'm not talking about rape. I'm talking about the right to privacy for Under 16's. Is it or is it not a right to be entitled to?

edit: Now I look like a gay lord for starting a new page. I hate that.

[Ali]

I'm not talking about rape. I'm talking about the right to privacy for Under 16's. Is it or is it not a right to be entitled to?I edited my last post while you were writing this.

Abortion for under 16's is somewhat related to the fact that they would have had to have had sex in order to get pregnant, which is where the Satutory Rape issue comes in.

[TonsOfFun]

I see your point but I didn't want the word rape come into the issue. Because it blurs the issue. In the UK, an under 16 currently has the right to privacy on this issue. Some are arguing it should be reversed and the parents should have the 'right to know'

So it's a 'right to privacy' vs. 'right to know'.

Another reason why 'rape' isn't a word I don't want to use in the issue, is that I would argue that without confidentiality, many teenagers will not seek vital sexual health and contraception advice. Which is the UK's governments view and why I agree with them. Rape is already a crime and is dealt with as such. It only becomes a crime when it is reported as a crime. If the girl feels she made her decision on her terms and is not rape, because she is love with the man for example or they realise their mistakes and doesn't want to put her boyfriend or ex-boyfriend into jail, then it doesn't become rape in this sense.

The law would be changed as a parents 'right to know' and if a teenager wanted to go onto the pill then she would have to have parents permission. Which they would very unlikely get and more pregnancies/ignorance would develop in my opinion.

I read my posts back and I must agree the title is wrong for the issue. I only said abortion because that is what this daughter of the mother had without her knowing.

Changing it to the 'right to know' would change far too many instances, like the pill issue, which would cause more problems.

I'm really interested in the outcome. Because I'm more for human rights of an individual than I am for the rights of those associated with this individual. And this issues comes into that.

[TonsOfFun]

I just found this also. I think from what I heard in the media yesterday was the typical media hype.

FAQ: Sex advice

If my 15-year-old daughter asks the doctor for an abortion, will I be told?

Not necessarily. Current guidance for doctors and health workers states that it is "good practice" for professionals to try to persuade a young person under 16 to inform a parent if they are seeking sexual health, contraception or abortion advice, but doctors must respect their right to confidentiality if they refuse. In the case of abortion, if a girl will not inform her parents, then a doctor should make "every effort" to help her to find another adult to provide support, for example a specialist youth worker. According to Marie Stopes International, between 60% and 80% of parents are told in advance.

Do doctors always have to respect confidentiality?

No. There is a limited exception. If a health professional believes there is a risk to the health, safety or welfare of a young person which is so serious as to outweigh privacy, he or she has to follow local child protection guidelines. But that still need not mean telling parents.

What would change if Sue Axon wins?

The government guidance issued in July 2004 would no longer apply and doctors would face a greater obligation to inform parents, though a right to confidentiality would remain, providing certain conditions were met. Mrs Axon is not seeking to establish a right to parental consent for abortion or contraception for underage girls - simply the "right to know".

But I still prefer the rights to the individual before the right to know.

[z-boy]

In India some people are so poor that they get pregnant just so that they can have an abortion and eat it.

[racer5.0stang]

In India some people are so poor that they get pregnant just so that they can have an abortion and eat it.

They should just eat some of those cows that are wondering around.

Oh wait that could be one of their relatives. :rolleyes:

[QueenAdrock]

LOL@NON-CHRISTIAN FAITHS!!!!!1 :rolleyes:

[greedygretchen]

I'd rather have 16 year olds not being afraid of having their parents notified and getting an abortion than having them go to full term and dumping the baby in the trash can at the school dance...(which z-boy can feel free to rummage through for his dinner)

I think we tend to forget that "teenage" years are a modern convention. People are acting like teenagers are infants- innocent little babies that can't think or do for themselves (that they treated like toddlers is often the reason they act that way). Girls and boys used to become men and women like at the age of twelve or thirteen- of course the life span was shorter, but still. Some kids used to have to do hard manual labor at five years old and work in industrial factories to support themselves.

Fuck, if I'd have gotten pregnant at 16 I wouldn't have wanted my mom to know about an abortion out of fear of disappointment and shame...Now that i'm older, I have a great solid relationship with my mom and I probably would tell her now- but not when I was 16.

Why can't governments trust people to make the right personal decisions for themselves?