About gay men

[abcdefz]

...any idea how that way of speaking (often) gets affected? Just curious. The long, drawn-out vowels, the pitch of voice, etc. If I were to write a character that way, the L&G orgs would jump all over me as a bigot, and yet.... that's how a lot of the gay men actually talk. Where do they get it from? What's the appeal?

I kind of also don't understand the I'm-attracted-to-men-so-I'll-femenize-myself sort of thing. I know all gay guys don't do this, and some go the ultra-butch way, which is pretty quease-inducing, too.

Just curious. This dude on the bus a couple days ago was announcing to the bus that he was gay and didn't care who knew it (and, with a voice not far off the Truman Capote/Paul Lynde scale, who needed announcing?), and it made me start thinking of these kinds of things.

[paulb]

i have no clue. your right, it makes no sense.

[bigblu89]

A-Z, I've always wondered the same thing.

It's things like that that meake me believe that it's a science thing, and not a "Oh well, I guess I'll be gay." thing.

There's gotta be hormone inbalances involved.

[DandyFop]

Yeah I don't think a lot of gay guys choose to speak like that. Many of the gay kids I knew in high school, that's just how they talked, before they came out, before anything. It is really interesting.

[abcdefz]

I can understand picking up some of the feminine mannerisms, maybe, but... that way of speaking only seems to come from other gay men. Is it the same way as punks piercing their noses with safety pins -- that that manner of speaking is the club's badge or something? I don't get it.

I can empathize with a lot of stuff; I can see what's attractive about the male body, but I can't figure out what's attractive about taking the male body and, through comportment or accessorizing... making it this third thing. I just don't get it.

It's like.... "Oh, I idolize and fetishize firemen so! -- I think I'll be a dermitologist!!!"

:confused:

[mickill]

It's interesting when gay men intentionally try to exhibit really exaggerated feminine traits. It obviously seems more contrived than anything else. I think that's pretty much all that truly bothers me about some gay people. I mean, I don't necessarily encourage dudes to put their penises in other dudes, but at the same time, I don't hold anything against them for it. But the ultra-flamboyance, the "look at me I'm gay and you better love it" attitude, the caricatures that desperately want you to notice them, that's annoying.

My wife's very good gay friend is so much less theatrical around us than when he's around his gay friends. I don't know if he's just uncomfortable being "himself" around us or if he just goes into "gay mode" when there's other gay people around. It's hard to tell.

[abcdefz]

But the ultra-flamboyance, the "look at me I'm gay and you better love it" attitude, the caricatures that desperately want you to notice them, that's annoying.





Yeah. I dislike affectation altogether, so women acting excessively "girlie" in average situations is pretty likely to turn me off, too.

[Qdrop]

yeah...i really wonder how much of the attitude/personality is genetic/hormonal/etc...and how much is just aping other gays in the culture.

most likely a mixture of both.

[voltanapricot]

yeah...i really wonder how much of the attitude/personality is genetic/hormonal/etc...
...Or a result of influence? My own GBF reckons his sexuality came about through strong female influence, having been raised by five sisters.

[Freebasser]

It's interesting when gay men intentionally try to exhibit really exaggerated feminine traits.

I never understood that - they act feminine in order to attract a guy... who likes men.

[mickill]

If I can be openly annoyed by some rapper for being overly flamboyant or some female pop singer for being a prima donna, then I shouldn't really have to worry about offending gay people/gay supporters for making similar observations with some of their behavior. That's just how I look at it.

[bigblu89]

Agreed.

Anyone that too over-the-top ANYTHING gets annoying really quick.

[fucktopgirl]

gay men can be annoying
or
really funny!

[Chicka B]

I don't know what makes them talk that way, I guess since they were born homosexual they ended up getting less testosterone and it makes them more femenine. But this year one of my subsitute teachers was obviously gay, and alot of the kids in my class (mostly boys) were giggling about the way he was talking (high pitched voice, lisp) and the teacher kept trying to yell over them talking and get them to pay attention but they wouldn't pay attention. Then the teacher says "we'll be watching a movie..." then after the movie was over the teacher says "so what did you all think about the movie?" and one of the boys in my class said laughing "it was gay man..." and his friends started laughing uncontrollably and the teacher looked real hurt and I thought it was so rude. I felt so fucking bad, because nobody should be treated that way. It's discrimination you know? And I notice that I use the word gay alot, like "this is gay" or something, but I don't mean it that way. I think I should stop. :(

[laurie_hammy]

I never understood that - they act feminine in order to attract a guy... who likes men.

Yeah whats up with that ?

[paulb]

Yeah whats up with that ?


...i got friends and family that i respect.

[dave790]

I know a few people who talk that way, but none of them are gay. Loadsa people have really camp ways of speaking/acting but are straight...is straight politically correct?

but anyway the whole camp thing just seems really emphasised with people who are gay, when maybe its just a general charachteristic thats more and more associated with gay people. i mean there gay people who don't talk in that way ever...but if its made fun of on tv or whatever its presented that way, so its just like expanded.

[BGirl]

Along the lines of what DandyFop said, A-Z I know you're not a fan of David Thedarith (I think that was you) but consider checking out the story "Go Carolina" in Me Talk Pretty One Day. It might inform your thinking (if not make you laugh).


edited to add excerpt:


None of the [speech] therapy students were girls. They were all boys like me who kept movie star scrapbooks and made their own curtains.

:p

<3

[laurie_hammy]

...i got friends and family that i respect.

hahaha

I was gonna say the real lyrics "SO WHATS UP WITH THAT ?" but I did YEAH whats up with that ? Cause if I did it normal I would get in trouble for talkin about Beastie Boys in Beastie Free :eek:

[Documad]

The gay men I know don't do that. I don't know if that's because I'm in the midwest or if it's because the gay men I know tend to be in professional jobs. Even the handful I knew who worked in local theater were nothing like the stereotype.

When I see the gay male stereotype on TV or in films, I've wondered whether it was made up for Hollywood or whether gay men on the coasts are really that different.

[Documad]

Also: There are a whole lot of straight men who talk funny. It's hilarious when people think they're gay.

And I worship David Sedaris. <3 BGirl.

[TurdBerglar]

gay dudes that have that stereotypical gay persona completely annoy the hell out of me. it seems that out of all the strereotypes and the people associated with their respected stereotypes, the gays seem to fufill their stereotype by far the most. i live in a pretty diverse area and i seem to notice a lot more flamboyent gays then yuppies or ghetto thugs, and considering that there's less gays than yuppies or ghetto thugs, that shouldn't be the case. i myself have always wondered why there's so many gay men that act like that fuckn' annoying dude from will and grace and not like the "normal" gay guy on the show. it seems that gay men start talking and acting like that in their early teens. maybe whatever makes guys act all macho and shit starting in their early teens isn't in gay males. and stop saying that those flamboyent gay males are acting all femenine and shit. i have NEVER met a female that ever came close to acting like a flamboyently gay man. flamboyently gay men act nothing like females. they act like something all their own. i've worked with a few "overly" gay dudes and i had plenty of respect for them i just cringed when they spoked and would think to myself "STOP ACTING LIKE THAT!". it has nothing to do with beeing gay. if a straight guy or a femal acted that way i would feel exactly the same. i really don't get it.

[SobaViolence]

i've got no qualms with homos. best club i've been to in years was a fag bar. good times.

[ericlee]

It gives us something to laugh at for one thing and if we try to do a gay impersonation, it's just not the same if you do it in a manly tone. Its the only thing I can think of.

[ericlee]

i've got qualms with homos. best club i've been to in years was a fag bar. good times.

"I've always liked a man in uniform"

[SobaViolence]

ooops.

missed a vital word.


whatev, gays are a-ok.

[DandyFop]

Along the lines of what DandyFop said, A-Z I know you're not a fan of David Thedarith (I think that was you) but consider checking out the story "Go Carolina" in Me Talk Pretty One Day. It might inform your thinking (if not make you laugh).


This is immediately what I thought of when this subject was brought up - these guys aren't trying to sound like that, it's just how they sound! Most likely proving even futher that it's a genetic/scientific whatever that makes one gay.

[QueenAdrock]

From my homosexual friend:

"Lisps are for queers who want attention."

As you can probably gather, my friend doesn't have a lisp. Though his hair and his clothes ARE fab.

[King PSYZ]

Some dudes just have a very soft spoken high voice, you can tell if it's a front when something bad happens. Like if someone gets scared they'll talk in their natural voice.

I've known gay guys that talk that way just cause and others that do it as a front. I think if you have to try and talk like that you should just buy a rainbow iron-on for all your clothes. Justifying a stereotype does nothing but to continue that stereotype.

[BGirl]

And I worship David Sedaris. <3 BGirl.

Well that made my day :)

<3 right back to Documad


(Wouldn't you love to meet his mother? What a character. And he clearly worshipped her.. it took me a few books to realize this for some reason)



And DandyFop, yeah I think you're right (y)

[abcdefz]

Yeah... I wasn't crazy about the 2/3rds of a book of Sedaris' that I read. Which one... not Me Talk Pretty.... it has the two guys on the front with their tongues sticking out. Anyway, yeah; it was just too mean-spirited to me.

The one story where I really thought it worked was the story of the mom who did all the at-home medical procedures on her daughter. That one was a gem.

The guy's clearly got some talent here and there, but... from what I read, his worldview is pretty misanthropic -- selectively misanthropic, but misanthropic no less.

[BGirl]

Yeah, I remember reading that. Whatever you think of Sedaris as a writer, the story should be enlightening in terms of your topic..


Miss Samson instructed me, when forming an s, to position the tip of my tongue against the rear of my top teeth, right up against the gum line. The effect produced a sound not unlike that of a tire releasing air. It was awkward and strange-sounding, and elicited much more attention than the original lisp. I failed to see the hissy s as the solution to the problem and continued to talk normally, at least at home, where my lazy tongue fell upon equally lazy ears.

[abcdefz]

I'll check the library for that, if you say it's worth it.

This isn't a preoccupation of mine, though. :D

[BGirl]

I'll check the library for that, if you say it's worth it.

Well I think Me Talk Pretty is a great book.. I just read/re-read three of his books on a summertime Sedaris bender (didn't revisit Barrel Fever or Holidays on Ice - the latter I read most Decembers). If all you've read is Barrel Fever definitely give it a look, I personally prefer his autobiographical stuff. I won't say he's not misanthropic, but I have seen him described as 'charmingly' misanthropic for what it's worth..

He is brilliant and hilarious and in my opinion worth another look. (I'm guessing you don't listen to This American Life on NPR? He does readings on there a lot.) At any rate the story I mentioned should only take you a few minutes to read next time you're at the library. (y)

[abcdefz]

I'll have another look.

The worldview is just bothersome to me... there are so many genuine reasons to dislike people that things like "she's got a horseface" just seems remarkably short-sighted. :D

[BGirl]

Well if that was in Barrel Fever that might have been coming from a character that he's making a statement about (the statement that you're making about him). But I don't recall the line so I could be wrong.

(And if it was coming from him, did he actually dislike the woman because of her horseface or was it just an unkind description of her looks?) (I'm not looking for an answer here necessarily.)

Anywho, I'll look forward to your report. :)


(This does remind me of the story I did read recently about the ultra-beautiful and perfect family... :p)

[abcdefz]

It was some remark about Patty Scialfa (sp?), Springsteen's wife. I don't remember verbatim, but the reason for a deragatory attitude toward her was based on the idea that she has a face like a horse.

I can understand using that sort of thing for humor, but I just get tired of it; I honestly do think it's helped edge people toward actually believing, in a knee-jerk way few would admit, that less attractive people are automatically less worthy, etc.

Or that: "Oh, he's old" dismissiveness I receive so much. :)

[BGirl]

[Justin]

There needs to be a class invented for high school or college where every male is required to take.

We could call it "Say No to Gay 101"

I gotta be honest, gay people doesnt bother me unless they are passing at me or even having a conversation with me. It totally makes me uncomfortable.

[Odie]

There needs to be a class invented for high school or college where every male is required to take.

We could call it "Say No to Gay 101"

I gotta be honest, gay people doesnt bother me unless they are passing at me or even having a conversation with me. It totally makes me uncomfortable.

huh, I would love a gay guy to come on to me.

Oh do belt up, you useless clot.

[Rawr]

when i was little i would always eat at zellers and the dude who would serve the food was always there serving me and my parents. he had that "gayish" if you'd like.. voice or whatever... i hated him because he acted all nice... way to nice towards me.

[abcdefz]

Well if that was in Barrel Fever that might have been coming from a character that he's making a statement about (the statement that you're making about him). But I don't recall the line so I could be wrong.

(And if it was coming from him, did he actually dislike the woman because of her horseface or was it just an unkind description of her looks?) (I'm not looking for an answer here necessarily.)

Anywho, I'll look forward to your report. :)


(This does remind me of the story I did read recently about the ultra-beautiful and perfect family... :p)




...okee... I'm at the library now, so I'll look for that story.

thanks for the suggestion... (y)

[BangkokB]

Count yourself blessed. Here they take it to a whole 'nother level dressing like women and even getting the sex changes

And after 6 or 12 22 beers thats a highly confusing bear trap~no pun intended. My mantra is stretch marks are my friend

[BGirl]

a-z I picked up Barrel Fever and found the passage about "that flat-faced wife of his, Patty Scholastica or Scoliosis or whatever" ... that was definitely the worldview of the fictional narrator and not Sedaris. (y)

[Documad]

Thanksgiving weekend would be a good time to pick up Holidays on Ice and read the story about department store santas and elves.

Sedaris is more funny when he reads his own stuff. When I read his stuff, I hear his voice. He's also one of the few famous people I would want to have dinner with.

[abcdefz]

a-z I picked up Barrel Fever and found the passage about "that flat-faced wife of his, Patty Scholastica or Scoliosis or whatever" ... that was definitely the worldview of the fictional narrator and not Sedaris. (y)


Well, I realize he was using another person's voice to say that, so to speak -- that was a particularly gossipy piece, if I remember -- but my problem with Sedaris seems to be that these are the voices/characters he repeatedly returns to. Same thing used to make people uncomfortable with Randy Newman (in the '70's more than, say, his Toy Story period) -- that he keep going back to racist digs, etc. etc.

I think the difference between Randy Newman's stuff and what I've read of Sedaris' -- which now includes "Go Baltimore" -- is that Sedaris is clever and Newman has wit. I don't learn anything from Sedaris except how clever he is, or gain any new perspective on his subject matter ("Go Carolina" is a perfect example, actually); if you listen to Newman's "Sail Away," for instance, there's a whole level of manipulation, delusion, and evil in which the slave trader indulges which gives the thing extra horror and heft.

In "Go Carolina," we have an adult narrating his experience as a child being deprogrammed from speaking his sibilant (sp?) s's, and how the three or so kids who didn't like sports all had those speech problems and, hmm.... is there a connection there? Kind of clever, but he never goes any further with it -- homosexuality and the sibilant s is intertwined in his worldview; but anyone who's lived any kind of life already knows that's not true. So what sort of insidious program could his school have had to ferret out the kids who spoke "properly" and "didn't like sports," or who did like sports but were also gay, etc. What programs for girls (since he pointedly mentions there were no girls in the "th" protection program)?

So I guess that's what kind of irks me or disappoints me -- he's got about one idea per story, it's more self-satisfied "clever" than actually observant, and an awful lot of the humor hinges on mean-spiritedness.

More than you wanted to know, maybe, but that's why I don't dig him, having given his stuff a fair shake.

That one story -- the one about the mom who does hospital treatment on her daughter -- I think that's one where he really nailed it.

[BGirl]

To me "Go Carolina" was about having people assume that there's something "wrong" with you and that you need to be "fixed" if you have some of the traits associated with homosexuality. (Having interests that are considered "girl things" was also covered in the story.) Someone who grew up not having people try to force you to change your natural behaviors because of a bigotry that's (so very unfortunately) accepted and widespread in our society could get a taste of what it's like. I mean, how can you not feel for a kid who's told that there's something very wrong with the way he is?

As for the fictional narrator in the other story, I don't think Sedaris is a writer who has his fictional narrators voice his own thoughts and ideas. The fictional stories all seem to have narrators who are a bit insane... (the writer of the family Christmas newsletter in Holidays on Ice comes to mind) He invents these nutty characters and then writes from their nutty prespectives. He's making statements about the fictional narrators themselves (or about a society that produces the traits that are taken to extremes in these characters), not having the narrators directly express his own thoughts. (When he writes so much autobiographical material there's really no reason for him to do that.)

You're free to dislike Sedaris, I'm not trying to change that, just wanted to clear up what seems to me to be a misinterpretation of his work.


Yeah Documad, it's almost time to get out Holidays on Ice! That one makes a good Christmas gift, I've given one to my brother and another copy to a friend who discovered David Sedaris when Me Talk Pretty One Day came out. I have the little paperback, great to throw in my bag for train reading when I'm running around on holiday errands and don't want to carry a magazine. It also looks great sitting atop the pile of holiday books on the shelf next to the tree. Not to mention all the great stories inside. Just all around a great little book. Every household should own one. :)



... why am I now trying to sell David Sedaris' books? Oh that's right, he racked up a big debt in London and needs the money (http://www.meettheauthor.com/bookbites/29.html).

[abcdefz]

To me "Go Carolina" was about having people assume that there's something "wrong" with you and that you need to be "fixed" if you have some of the traits associated with homosexuality. (Having interests that are considered "girl things" was also covered in the story.) Someone who grew up not having people try to force you to change your natural behaviors because of a bigotry that's (so very unfortunately) accepted and widespread in our society could get a taste of what it's like. I mean, how can you not feel for a kid who's told that there's something very wrong with the way he is?

As for the fictional narrator in the other story, I don't think Sedaris is a writer who has his fictional narrators voice his own thoughts and ideas. The fictional stories all seem to have narrators who are a bit insane... (the writer of the family Christmas newsletter in Holidays on Ice comes to mind) He invents these nutty characters and then writes from their nutty prespectives. He's making statements about the fictional narrators themselves (or about a society that produces the traits that are taken to extremes in these characters), not having the narrators directly express his own thoughts. (When he writes so much autobiographical material there's really no reason for him to do that.)

You're free to dislike Sedaris, I'm not trying to change that, just wanted to clear up what seems to me to be a misinterpretation of his work.




Fair enough. I do think that there's some affinity when it's your recurring plot of land you return to, you know? Like how there are no totally objective documentaries, because someone has to make at least a choice like "What do I point my camera at?" let alone the editing, etc.


Nice discussion. (y)